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Offline AtomicAnt

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« Reply #135 on: December 07, 2005, 11:51:00 PM »
All this talk about studies and efficacy misses the point. What are you trying to say? If a study proves that torture works then torture is okay? Not in my world.

It really pisses me off when I read about the physical and psychological torment that is inherent in the methods of these programs and then have program supporters chime in and say this is not abuse.

They act like teenagers are a sub-human species without rights or even the right to have a will of their own and that they, the parents, can pretty much do whatever they want to 'save' the kid, even if it involves such extreme measures.

There was a news article in MSNBC that says:

?The debate is whether you can use interrogation methods that are short of torture,? he said. ?Some who have been critical of the Bush administration have confused torture with cruel, inhumane treatment.?
 
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320

Excuse me? How can anyone get away with saying there is a difference between torture and cruel, inhumane treatment? Do you expect to anyone to believe that there is 'humane torture?'

Program supporters do.

61 percent of Americans agreed torture is justified at least on rare occasions.

I thought we were supposed to be the good guys. I thought one reason for going into Iraq was to stop the torture. It is this kind of hypocritical thinking that tolerates the existence of these programs.
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Offline Papa Rossi

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« Reply #136 on: December 08, 2005, 12:23:00 AM »
Stupid mother, I should've made an Ascent for dumbshit parents like yourself, fanjazzmatique or whatever the fuck your name is. It would have been a BILLION times more profitable.

Tried everything, eh? Except putting the rock down while you were pregnant. Or making sure the fumes didnt slip through the cracks in his bedroom door as your were lighting up when he was growing up. A little late to take all that back, huh. [ This Message was edited by: Papa Rossi on 2005-12-07 22:31 ]
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #137 on: December 08, 2005, 02:39:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-07 20:37:00, Deborah wrote:

"***How many of the graduates who lived would have died if not for the, as you call it "'therapeutic' bubble"? Are the kids entering these schools at a higher risk of harming themselves then your average high school student? Less risky? We dont know.



No, we don?t. And it seems a waste of time, to seek answers to questions that can?t be objectively or definitively answered.  How could you possibly ever show that those who were placed would?ve died otherwise? You can?t. How would you determine if they are at higher or lower risk than the average teen? You could only guess, based on your observations, perceptions and the level of fear you feel about their ?symptoms?. I can?t see that that would be any different than the status quo. If your child exhibits x,y,z behaviors they are at risk of being deadinsaneorinjail without a program.  



Life holds no guarantees. A child could be stricken with an incurable disease the day they returned from a program, or be killed in a car accident or stab themselves in the chest while opening a box that contains their mail order skateboard- happened to a friend's son who didn't actually die but could've if he had removed the knife. The therapeutic bubble can provide no guarantees either. And that is a fact that is proven here at Fornits on a daily basis.



A point of clarity, in case you were confused. I didn?t imply that deaths in state run facilities or placements in programs funded by the state were acceptable.  And I beg to differ regarding the money not being important. People are willing to pay unreasonable amounts of money, incur debt they can't afford for anything that appeals to them, that they feel they need or have been led to believe that they need, until or unless they realize they didn?t get their money?s worth. In other words, scammed. If it weren't an issue, how many program owners would be filing into the state office to get licensed if parents and Ed Cons refused to place another kid in an unlicensed facilities? Where money is involved you'll likely find compromises in integrity and ethics.



Over time the data on deaths, injuries (physical and psychological), and abuses could be sufficient, if they were compiled in an easily readable format for parents. Unfortunately, it currently requires significant research, if parents even think to do that.



"
Deborah, I see your point, kids can die no matter how much you try to protect them and I agree.  I see alot of posting about this abuse or that death and a frustration of trying to have people take notice.  My first question would be "Is the abuse/death rate for the schools you speak of significantly higher than the national average, say compared to public schools for example?" If that answer is yes then we have a systemic problem with RTCs and we should bring this to the attention of the authorities (who ever they may be) and they will listen if we approached them properly.
I see many people who would rather throw eggs at the school owners than try to help future kids who may be attending these facilities, pulling together and trying to make a difference.  Most every significant change in regulation is done thru data analysis.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #138 on: December 08, 2005, 02:43:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-07 20:51:00, AtomicAnt wrote:

"All this talk about studies and efficacy misses the point. What are you trying to say? If a study proves that torture works then torture is okay? Not in my world.



It really pisses me off when I read about the physical and psychological torment that is inherent in the methods of these programs and then have program supporters chime in and say this is not abuse.



They act like teenagers are a sub-human species without rights or even the right to have a will of their own and that they, the parents, can pretty much do whatever they want to 'save' the kid, even if it involves such extreme measures.



There was a news article in MSNBC that says:



?The debate is whether you can use interrogation methods that are short of torture,? he said. ?Some who have been critical of the Bush administration have confused torture with cruel, inhumane treatment.?

 

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10345320



Excuse me? How can anyone get away with saying there is a difference between torture and cruel, inhumane treatment? Do you expect to anyone to believe that there is 'humane torture?'



Program supporters do.



61 percent of Americans agreed torture is justified at least on rare occasions.



I thought we were supposed to be the good guys. I thought one reason for going into Iraq was to stop the torture. It is this kind of hypocritical thinking that tolerates the existence of these programs."
Dont be pissed off.  The guy is just trying to collect information to show the schools are not protecting our kids.  I didnt see anyone talking about torture, oh maybe you poosted in the wrong place, sorry.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #139 on: December 08, 2005, 03:22:00 PM »
"Stupid mother, I should've made an Ascent for dumbshit parents like yourself, fanjazzmatique or whatever the fuck your name is. It would have been a BILLION times more profitable.

Tried everything, eh? Except putting the rock down while you were pregnant. Or making sure the fumes didnt slip through the cracks in his bedroom door as your were lighting up when he was growing up. A little late to take all that back, huh. [ This Message was edited by: Papa Rossi on 2005-12-07 22:31 ]"

That's an incredibly intelligent insult, thank you so much.  Are you implying my son is messed up because I'm a drug addict or something?  That's brilliant. I am not now, nor have ever been a drug addict.  And I made the decision to homeschool instead of putting him in an RTC while simultaneously continuing to pursue testing for non-verbal learning disabilities.  I am also retaining a lawyer to protect my son's right within the school system and to keep him from being placed by the SCHOOL DISTRICT anywhere that might be abusive to him or exacerbate his problems.  

But frankly, I am sick and tired of people automatically blaming parents.  Not all parents are bad.  I'm sorry if any of you were abused or misunderstood.  I am exploring every option to understand my own child.  Including talking to him....every day.  That's a no-brainer.  So if you want to do some good in the world, stop insulting people and get to work helping.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #140 on: December 08, 2005, 03:29:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-08 12:22:00, Anonymous wrote:

""Stupid mother, I should've made an Ascent for dumbshit parents like yourself, fanjazzmatique or whatever the fuck your name is. It would have been a BILLION times more profitable.



Tried everything, eh? Except putting the rock down while you were pregnant. Or making sure the fumes didnt slip through the cracks in his bedroom door as your were lighting up when he was growing up. A little late to take all that back, huh. [ This Message was edited by: Papa Rossi on 2005-12-07 22:31 ]"



That's an incredibly intelligent insult, thank you so much.  Are you implying my son is messed up because I'm a drug addict or something?  That's brilliant. I am not now, nor have ever been a drug addict.  And I made the decision to homeschool instead of putting him in an RTC while simultaneously continuing to pursue testing for non-verbal learning disabilities.  I am also retaining a lawyer to protect my son's right within the school system and to keep him from being placed by the SCHOOL DISTRICT anywhere that might be abusive to him or exacerbate his problems.  



But frankly, I am sick and tired of people automatically blaming parents.  Not all parents are bad.  I'm sorry if any of you were abused or misunderstood.  I am exploring every option to understand my own child.  Including talking to him....every day.  That's a no-brainer.  So if you want to do some good in the world, stop insulting people and get to work helping."
Hey Mom, sorry you had to hear that.  I have been here a while and from time to time we get people who sign on just to abuse people.  They usually move on to another web site, dont take it personally, they are usually trying to deal with some personal problems and need a place to vent.  They dont intend to add any value or help anyone.
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Offline Anotherscaredmom

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« Reply #141 on: December 08, 2005, 03:42:00 PM »
The largest problem with a longitudinal study on any of these programs is not that they are not regulated or wouldn't allow access or whatever.  Though regulation would, in fact, significantly speed the process.  Research happens when someone becomes interested in the topic and can pose a convincing argument that a valid study can be conducted to the funding source.   This requires a lot of steps, and for all we know, someone is conducting a study as we speak.  Valid research that will be respected by the scientific community and therefore the government, takes time.

Are people on this website rallying in any way for government regulation?  Is there any cohesiveness to the movement?  Someone, ideally one of you, needs to make contact with officials, get a petition started, and stage protests.  Launch a media campaign.  Start a non-profit.  

Essentially, be pro-active.  I think this website serves many purposes, even helping parents make decisions (except for those who simply enjoy slinging insults).  And I commend you all for sharing your stories and thoughts with each other.
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Offline CCM girl 1989

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« Reply #142 on: December 08, 2005, 04:19:00 PM »
Famjaztique,

I agree don't pay any attention to Papa Rossi! I have never come across him in here. Hopefully, he won't be back. Once in a while you come across people like him. You can't take anything he says personally. The majority of us here are good people. Hope all is well, and you are getting the information you need to make the right decision for your son. If you take the time to go through this site, you will find out that there is some wonderful progress being made by a number of people to bring about change in these RTC's, and how they are run.
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f you were never in a program, or a parent of a child in a program, then you have no business posting here.

Offline The Liger

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« Reply #143 on: December 08, 2005, 04:39:00 PM »
I think that people on this forum who are hostile toward parents are just going through their own thing.  I think a few years ago, I would have been the same way.  It took a long time to realize that although my parents made a bad decision that cost me a lot, they were fooled by the facility's promises too.  My parents didn't have the luxury of the internet back in '92.

Anyway, famjaztique, I think it's great that you're researching.  Your son sounds a lot like me at that age.  I got into stuff pretty early, and that's what freaked my parents out.  I wasn't a drug addict, but I didn't care about school, smoked pot, etc. at 13 and 14.  I think that I would have benefitted a lot from home school.  There are certain labels that you get in school that are nearly impossible to shake.  Even switching schools, the labels still followed me.  I think getting out of that type of social environment would have been good.  My parents sent me away for three years.  They wanted to make sure I graduated before I came home.  I did, but when I got out, I dropped out of college and started doing drugs that I never dreamed I would do.  

I think that there are kids who will learn by what you tell them, but there are kids who have to learn for themselves what the rules in life are.  When I dropped out of college, my parents said I should get a job, because they weren't going to support me for no reason.  I did, and figured out that I did not like minimum wage, and that I needed to go back to school if I wanted the type of lifestyle I had grown up with.  Except my parents made me pay for it myself since I waited too long.  I'll graduate from law school in May.  So, you see, I needed to learn things my own way.  

It's not the end of the world if your son drops out of school.  There are plenty of people here at law school who got their GEDs and are at the top of the class.  Your son may just be one of those people who has to learn the hard way.  You could at least keep your relationship in tact by not sending him away.

Good luck to you.
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Offline Anotherscaredmom

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« Reply #144 on: December 08, 2005, 05:11:00 PM »
Thank you both.  This is an emotionally raw time.  As a parent, everywhere you go...to the school, other parents, friends, etc...there is always someone who just wants to say, "well, you must be fucking your kid up otherwise he wouldn't be this way.".  Everyone seems to think they know just what to do, and when they try it backfires, and then the mantra is, "wow, there's really something wrong with this kid, he needs to be institutionalized or medicated."  

Anyway, yes, I'm homeschooling for now.  And already the change is remarkable.  This isn't the first time.  I homeschooled in sixth grade as well, and it was like he was "back".  And without me having to tell him not to drugs, or be home or whatever, he just did those things because he was happy again!   And this time, just the realization that he was going to be homeschooled turned him from a kid ready to bolt to a kid who was snuggled up with me on the couch watching a movie last night.  Something about school is toxic to him, and it's not just that he wants to get out of doing work.  He WANTS to be in school.

Anyway, so that is why I'm having tests for nonverbal learning disabilities.  The school has labeled him as "depressed and angry".  .....only when in school....only in school.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #145 on: December 08, 2005, 06:26:00 PM »
Quote
This is an emotionally raw time.


Think how it must be for the guy/gal who just spent a couple years locked up against their will, to come on this forum and read about how hard it is for parents who send their kid away. Then you might understand some of the responses you get on this forum. Afterall, this is a program survivor board, correct - so why be so surprised when a bitter program victim shows up to say something?

Freaking out is exactly what these programs want you to do. They want you to let down your guard, and start looking for answers. Any answer. That is where they step in to, first, scare the living shit out of you with their lies and propoganda (deadorinjail...etc), second, somehow convince you to give up your child to a bunch of unqualified thugs and kidnappers for the cost of a new mortgage. It's a scam. Don't fall for it. Don't even consider these programs an option if you value any relationship with your son. If you feel you need to send him away, I hear they are taking applications for the next season of Brat Camp.  :roll:
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #146 on: December 08, 2005, 06:47:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-08 15:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote
This is an emotionally raw time.



Think how it must be for the guy/gal who just spent a couple years locked up against their will, to come on this forum and read about how hard it is for parents who send their kid away. Then you might understand some of the responses you get on this forum. Afterall, this is a program survivor board, correct - so why be so surprised when a bitter program victim shows up to say something?



Freaking out is exactly what these programs want you to do. They want you to let down your guard, and start looking for answers. Any answer. That is where they step in to, first, scare the living shit out of you with their lies and propoganda (deadorinjail...etc), second, somehow convince you to give up your child to a bunch of unqualified thugs and kidnappers for the cost of a new mortgage. It's a scam. Don't fall for it. Don't even consider these programs an option if you value any relationship with your son. If you feel you need to send him away, I hear they are taking applications for the next season of Brat Camp.  :roll: "
Its tough on the entire family not just the parents.  Everyone suffers when the family is broken apart, the child, siblings parents etc.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #147 on: December 08, 2005, 07:07:00 PM »
Quote
Its tough on the entire family not just the parents. Everyone suffers when the family is broken apart, the child, siblings parents etc.


::boohoo::

One thing they do at WWASP programs is drill that thought into your head until you feel so guilty, you will do/say whatever they want. Future tip: if you don't want your family broken apart, don't hire kidnappers to come steal your kid away to keep them imprisoned by a cult for a couple years.
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Offline TheWho

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« Reply #148 on: December 08, 2005, 07:53:00 PM »
Quote
On 2005-12-08 16:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote
Its tough on the entire family not just the parents. Everyone suffers when the family is broken apart, the child, siblings parents etc.



::boohoo::



One thing they do at WWASP programs is drill that thought into your head until you feel so guilty, you will do/say whatever they want. Future tip: if you don't want your family broken apart, don't hire kidnappers to come steal your kid away to keep them imprisoned by a cult for a couple years. "
No I am just thinking in general "Outside WWASP".  Whenever a family is in crisis or one member is hurting the entire family unit is hurting, not just the parents or not just the kids.  Has nothing to do with having a family member kidnapped?? not sure where that came from, must have missed a post somewhere.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #149 on: December 08, 2005, 08:43:00 PM »
Famjaztique  :nworthy:  :nworthy:  :nworthy:

I know this may seem simplistic and unconventional, obvious and rediculous all at the same time, but... what if you found and solved the problem already? School, as we do it these days, based on the Prussian gymnasium model, is one messed up thing to do to anyone, never mind impressionable, helpless, trusting children. If getting out of school is that good for him, why do anything else? Why borrow trouble?

It's been my contention for some time now that the troubled parent industry* is a natural and necessary adjunct to our modern education system. As it becomes more toxic and more stressful to the average kid, more and more kids are snapping under the pressure, acting out in ways that we old farts find disturbing and inexplicable.

But we're making kids just the same today as we have for millions of years. It's the schools and the communities (or lack thereof) in which they exist that are changing. To say that a kid who's not happy and thriving in this monstrosity must somehow be disordered and in need of treatment sounds just exactly the same to me as Stalin's programe for "treating" people who were too mentally ill to be happy in the workers' paradise he'd given them.

But getting back to another point. What would be the value of studies to compare outcomes, injuries, etc.? IMO, not a whole hell of a lot. Certainly the true believers will not be impressed. They're convinced that their kids would be dead w/o the program. They liken it to chemo therapy or something. The trouble is there is no emperical evidence at all to support that there was anything wrong with the kids to begin with. But others outside of these cults might stand up and take notice if we could show, through peer reviewed study, the actual rates of suicide and other horrid outcomes that I believe come out of these programs.

It would be better, by far, to examine how the schools and changes in our society at large (Nazification?) and changes in the economy and in politics and war; how do these things contribute to our kids' wellbeing? And are we really seeing kids breaking down? Or are we just being overly nostalgic about our own history and deeming them disordered if they turn out a bit more like Eddy Haskel than like Wally Cleaver?

Honestly, I think that's the root of the problem. Our parents and grandparents fell for the scam that they needed professional help to make and raise kids. It was a like. The industrial revolution needed professionals to break children while they're young, to prevent them from becoming fully independent, free soverign adults. Free soverign adults don't make very good factory workers nor office workers. And, the way things are going today, any kid who resists the breaking process, who reacts to the inarticulable insult to their humanity is deemed disordered and tagged and cataloged for further processing.

Don't fall for it, that's all. Just do what comes naturally; love them.

*By 'troubled parent industry' I don't mean that parents are the only ones who screw kids up. I don't even believe that most, or even a significant minority of these kids are actually disordered or dysfunctional or in need of fixing at all. By troubled parent, I mean parents who take that bait, hook, line and sinker and who, unlike you, let the full force and brunt of the situation fall to their kids while they pay some used car salesman lots and lots of money to continually tell them they're doing the right thing, no matter what their gut says.

In all history, there is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare. Only one who knows the disastrous effects of a long war can realize the supreme importance of rapidity in bringing it to a close. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted with the evils of war who can thoroughly understand the profitable way of carrying it on.
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