RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU

[deja vu strippers]

http://www.fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=22&t=30664&p=366224#p366224 > Thread moved

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[Whooter]

Like I said, I didnt see Rudy behind closed doors.

Which is what I've been saying all along.  You cannot, no matter how much knowledge you think you have, understand what it's like to be subjected to this kind of "therapy".  Ever.  We have a different vantage point.  We can pick up on the subtleties of the loaded language and glossy advertisements.  We can put it in a context that you'll never be able to get.

 But sure he could be a total different person with the door closed.  My daughter never saw that side of him.

That you know of.  Maybe she didn't, but you don't really know.

Yes and maybe he changed.  You really dont know.  No matter how much you try you can never know what it is like to be a program parent.  But you pretend to know sometimes.  So it needs to be able to go both ways.  I can see things and pick up things that you would never be able to because you never saw a successful child complete a program.
You need to be a little bit more tolerant and open minded about other peoples experiences and points of view imo.



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[Samara]

You are right.  We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent.  Because we don't stick our kids in programs. But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents.  We know that quite well.

[Whooter]

You are right. We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent. Because we don't stick our kids in programs.

Of course you didn’t.  The overwhelming majority of  people don’t have to.  Just like my other kids, they get through the tough patches on their own along with good parenting.

But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents. We know that quite well.

Until you have spoken to kids (and their parents) who have been helped by programs then you don’t have sufficient information to conclude that.  I have seen the marketing and kids who failed and kids who did well so I have a better perspective on whether or not the programs BS or not.

You have the disadvantage of seeing it from a kids perspective and then only those kids who didn’t do well which is only one facet.  



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[Samara]

Uh, Whooter do you know how many people cherrio'd the program after they graduated only to recant it later?  Two words: Longitudinal Studies. It's called brainwash.   I've met many a successful anti program person and many unsuccessful pro program people and vice versa. Whether you made it out ok or not is irrelevant to the question of whether sustained program abuse is acceptable.

[Whooter]

Uh, Whooter do you know how many people cherrio'd the program after they graduated only to recant it later? Two words: Longitudinal Studies.

That’s what I am talking about, Samara.  The studies will show how effective the places are and we don’t have to have this back and forth.  The studies I have seen show the programs to be about 80% effective.  Which program was studied and what were the results?  Do you have a link to the outcome studies?

It's called brainwash. I've met many a successful anti program person and many unsuccessful pro program people and vice versa. Whether you made it out ok or not is irrelevant to the question of whether sustained program abuse is acceptable.

I find it hard to believe that they call it brainwashing.  The only place I ever hear that is here on fornits.  We all agree that abuse is not acceptable.  The problem is with the definition and whether or not abuse occurred.  So are you saying that you have meet people who were helped by the program or not?  That didn’t come out very clear to me.



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[Awake]

As funny as this video is it is very similar to the kind of mind control, brainwashing, cult what have you that did occur at Cedu. You may laugh but many will identify greatly with this.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mnNSe5XYp6E



When it is real tho... not that funny.

[Samara]

There are no longitudinal studies. That's my point.

[Ursus]

There are no longitudinal studies. That's my point.

Yep. IIRC, the "study" Whooter always likes to cite is a questionaire type thing that had 17 preselected students say how they felt about the program shortly after graduation and about a year later. Not surprisingly, there was a higher response rate from parents.  

[Samara]

Whooter: Why are you here? You live here at Fornits, and the only thing you do is poke at program survivors. Why would you spend your time doing it? It is sadistic. And non sensical. If I thought a site was full of hooey, you could not pay me to live there.

[elanasshole]

Whooter: Why are you here? You live here at Fornits, and the only thing you do is poke at program survivors. Why would you spend your time doing it? It is sadistic. And non sensical. If I thought a site was full of hooey, you could not pay me to live there.

@ Samara :  Whooter:  Why are you here?  Whooter works on his play-doh, pay dough and pedo parenting skills.[/size]

[Paul St. John]

It's called brainwash. I've met many a successful anti program person and many unsuccessful pro program people and vice versa. Whether you made it out ok or not is irrelevant to the question of whether sustained program abuse is acceptable.

I find it hard to believe that they call it brainwashing. The only place I ever hear that is here on fornits. We all agree that abuse is not acceptable. The problem is with the definition and whether or not abuse occurred. So are you saying that you have meet people who were helped by the program or not? That didn’t come out very clear to me.

Since, you seem interested, I think I understand.. I hope the two of you do not mind me interjecting.

The following 3 points I think were made, all of which I personally, think are valid.



1.  Whether you are for or against programs does not necessarily dictate whether or not, you will be successful in life.

2. Whether or not, you do well after leaving a program is also not necessarily evidence of anything in regards to the program, because there is no certainty that the program was causal.

3.  Even if you do, do well after leaving a program, that does not justify the abuse that occurred in the program.

It was a bit unclear, but that is whta I took from it.  Samara, I m not trying to speak for you or anything.  Sorry, if my interpretation is incorrect.

Paul

[Awake]

It's called brainwash. I've met many a successful anti program person and many unsuccessful pro program people and vice versa. Whether you made it out ok or not is irrelevant to the question of whether sustained program abuse is acceptable.

I find it hard to believe that they call it brainwashing. The only place I ever hear that is here on fornits. We all agree that abuse is not acceptable. The problem is with the definition and whether or not abuse occurred. So are you saying that you have meet people who were helped by the program or not? That didn’t come out very clear to me.

Since, you seem interested, I think I understand.. I hope the two of you do not mind me interjecting.

The following 3 points I think were made, both of which I personally, think are valid.



1.  Whether you are for or against programs does not necessarily dictate whether or not, you will be successful in life.

2. Whether or not, you do well after leaving a program is also not necessarily evidence of anything in regards to the program, because there is no certainty that the program was causal.

3.  Even if you do, do well after leaving a program, that does not justify the abuse that occurred in the program.

It was a bit unclear, but that is whta I took from it.  Samara, I m not trying to speak for you or anything.  Sorry, if my interpretation is incorrect.

Paul

I don't know if you speak for her but you took the words right outta my mouth. :nods:

[Samara]

Exactly. Successful, not successful, pain in the ass child of the world - it is wrong.

[Anne Bonney]

No matter how much you try you can never know what it is like to be a program parent.  But you pretend to know sometimes.  So it needs to be able to go both ways.  I can see things and pick up things that you would never be able to because you never saw a successful child complete a program.

You're right.  I've never abdicated my parental responsibilities as you did.  I have, however, successfully raised two grown children, one of which scared the life out of me for years on end.  Somehow, we managed without the abusive, emotional blackmail tactics of programs.  I knew from my experience inside programs that the worst thing I could do for her would be to send her off to a mindfuck.  As much as she scared me, it was MY job to help guide her through it.  It was the single hardest thing I've ever done, but sooooooo worth it.  I never broke the sacred trust with her the way program parents do when they send them away.  She and I both knew that I couldn't save her, she had to save herself with her family's help and the help of some true professionals.  She and I both knew that forcing her to change would've resulted in temporary changes that wouldn't mean anything, not to mention the aforementioned loss of trust.

You need to be a little bit more tolerant and open minded about other peoples experiences and points of view imo.

You need to man up and cite where you think I said anything about exaggerating my experiences in Straight.