RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU

[maruska]

You are right. We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent. Because we don't stick our kids in programs.

Of course you didn’t.  The overwhelming majority of  people don’t have to.  Just like my other kids, they get through the tough patches on their own along with good parenting.

But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents. We know that quite well.

Until you have spoken to kids (and their parents) who have been helped by programs then you don’t have sufficient information to conclude that. I have seen the marketing and kids who failed and kids who did well so I have a better perspective on whether or not the programs BS or not.
You have the disadvantage of seeing it from a kids perspective and then only those kids who didn’t do well which is only one facet.  



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I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

[Whooter]

No matter how much you try you can never know what it is like to be a program parent.  But you pretend to know sometimes.  So it needs to be able to go both ways.  I can see things and pick up things that you would never be able to because you never saw a successful child complete a program.

You're right.  I've never abdicated my parental responsibilities as you did.  I have, however, successfully raised two grown children, one of which scared the life out of me for years on end.  Somehow, we managed without the abusive, emotional blackmail tactics of programs.  I knew from my experience inside programs that the worst thing I could do for her would be to send her off to a mindfuck.  As much as she scared me, it was MY job to help guide her through it.  It was the single hardest thing I've ever done, but sooooooo worth it.  I never broke the sacred trust with her the way program parents do when they send them away.  She and I both knew that I couldn't save her, she had to save herself with her family's help and the help of some true professionals.  She and I both knew that forcing her to change would've resulted in temporary changes that wouldn't mean anything, not to mention the aforementioned loss of trust.

You need to be a little bit more tolerant and open minded about other peoples experiences and points of view imo.

You need to man up and cite where you think I said anything about exaggerating my experiences in Straight.

I am glad your child is doing well as is mine.  I think each parent somehow finds the right paths for their children.

You need to "woman up" lol first and provide proof of you accusations.  I have time and will wait.  Let me know if you want to see the original post again to refresh your memory.



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[Anne Bonney]

You need to "woman up" lol first and provide proof of you accusations.  I have time and will wait.  Let me know if you want to see the original post again to refresh your memory.

Like I said....we all knew you'd weasel out of it.  I gave links of what I see as you defending JRC.  You don't agree that you were defending them so now you're using that as an excuse to back out on showing where you think I admitted anything like what you said.  

Weasel, weasel, weasel.

C'mon.....just this ONCE be a man and back up what you say.

[Troll Control]

You are right. We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent. Because we don't stick our kids in programs.

Of course you didn’t.  The overwhelming majority of  people don’t have to.  Just like my other kids, they get through the tough patches on their own along with good parenting.

But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents. We know that quite well.

Until you have spoken to kids (and their parents) who have been helped by programs then you don’t have sufficient information to conclude that. I have seen the marketing and kids who failed and kids who did well so I have a better perspective on whether or not the programs BS or not.
You have the disadvantage of seeing it from a kids perspective and then only those kids who didn’t do well which is only one facet.  



...

I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

Notice, maruska, how Whooter completely avoided your very good question in order to attack Anne instead.  He feels he can win that one, but answering your question will only expose him for what he really is - a shill and phony "regular parent."  This is just another example of how Whooter gets trapped in his own lies and then just tries to ignore it and pretend it never happened.

[Ursus]

I think each parent somehow finds the right paths for their children.

Interesting way to put it, Whooter. Aren't those kids allowed some say in finding their own paths in life?

Kinda reminds me of your comment about having a duty to mold and shape your children. Jes saying'...

[Whooter]

You need to "woman up" lol first and provide proof of you accusations.  I have time and will wait.  Let me know if you want to see the original post again to refresh your memory.

Like I said....we all knew you'd weasel out of it.  I gave links of what I see as you defending JRC.  You don't agree that you were defending them so now you're using that as an excuse to back out on showing where you think I admitted anything like what you said.  

Weasel, weasel, weasel.

C'mon.....just this ONCE be a man and back up what you say.

You can post all the links you want and call people names and stamp your feet, but until you address the issue we cant move forward.

Just in case there is any confusion lets take a look at the original post:

"...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

You havent provided proof of this yet.



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[maruska]

You are right. We wouldn't know what its like to be a program parent. Because we don't stick our kids in programs.

Of course you didn’t.  The overwhelming majority of  people don’t have to.  Just like my other kids, they get through the tough patches on their own along with good parenting.

But what we do know is how effectively programs BS parents. We know that quite well.

Until you have spoken to kids (and their parents) who have been helped by programs then you don’t have sufficient information to conclude that. I have seen the marketing and kids who failed and kids who did well so I have a better perspective on whether or not the programs BS or not.
You have the disadvantage of seeing it from a kids perspective and then only those kids who didn’t do well which is only one facet.  



...

I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

Notice, maruska, how Whooter completely avoided your very good question in order to attack Anne instead.  He feels he can win that one, but answering your question will only expose him for what he really is - a shill and phony "regular parent."  This is just another example of how Whooter gets trapped in his own lies and then just tries to ignore it and pretend it never happened.

Oh no, I think he needs just a little more time to respond:) ...I am sure he will respond..

 Whooter?

[Troll Control]

Sure, he'll respond alright.  Just not to you substantively.  He has already admitted in his own logged posts that he's not just a 'regular parent' and that he's financially involved in the TTI.  He can't erase it (because he sold his user account and no longer can edit his old posts) and he can't effectively deny it, so he does the only thing he can - shift the focus to Anne (or RB, or me, or samara, or Deborah, or Ginger, or psy or whomever else is available at the moment to use as a foil).

I'd like to see you keep at it for a while though and see what happens.  It will be a lesson for all new readers who might have otherwise been duped by him.

[Whooter]

I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

Sorry about all the trolls here today.  I did miss your post, but your posts are one of the ones that I follow because you seem to be more open minded and accepting than most here,  so I would have responded eventually.
I mainly talk about the kids my daughter and I met while she was in wilderness and at ASR.  But I also have seen stories from others (outside fornits) who talk on their blogs about their experiences.  My daughter has connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR which spans several peer groups.  I have read blogs and facebook posts of kids who did not do well also from several programs.  So I have seen both sides of the coin so to speak.

One can really gain a sense of which programs are good and which are not by looking at perspectives and I find that interesting.



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[Anne Bonney]

Sorry about all the trolls here today.

 :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:  :roflmao:

[Troll Control]

So, when we distill it down, Whooter's "experience" with program kids is just reading the internet.  Yeah, he's an expert alright.

Where's Danny B II when you need him?  

Samara, please don't try to act like you understand Elan through posts of others, that is the problem I have here.

Danny, are you going to accept Whooter's posts based on his only experience with programs being "reading blogs on the internet"?  Or do you have the same "double standard" problem that Whooter has?   Man, you bash everyone else for not having experienced things directly but Whooter, who admits he knows nothing but what he reads on the internet in the posts of others, gets a complete free pass and your adulation to boot?  

Keep digging, maruska.  Ask him about that fiduciary interest in Aspen, his ties to RMA in the 1990's and his TTI meeting in Chicago concerning 'where the real money is, the TBS industry.'  Those answers I'd love to see.

[maruska]

I thought you are just a program parent and talking just about your own experience with your daughter.....can you tell me more? where did you see all those kids?

Sorry about all the trolls here today.  I did miss your post, but your posts are one of the ones that I follow because you seem to be more open minded and accepting than most here,  so I would have responded eventually.
I mainly talk about the kids my daughter and I met while she was in wilderness and at ASR.  But I also have seen stories from others (outside fornits) who talk on their blogs about their experiences.  My daughter has connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR which spans several peer groups.  I have read blogs and facebook posts of kids who did not do well also from several programs.  So I have seen both sides of the coin so to speak.

One can really gain a sense of which programs are good and which are not by looking at perspectives and I find that interesting.



...

I love to read blogs about this topic. Would you send me some links ? That would be lovely!

And which programs do you consider good and which are not? I must admit I find in every program something that bothers me to the point I would never send my child there , so I wonder.

Also when you write that your daughter connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR...does that mean she did not maintain that friendship with her peers after she left ASR? (In my country we have a very strong bond with our classmates , because we usually attend school together for many years and the friendships last a life time:)


And lastly...what is DJ talking about?  What " fiduciary interest in Aspen, his ties to RMA in the 1990's and his TTI meeting in Chicago concerning 'where the real money is, the TBS industry ? "   What does that mean?

[Whooter]

Interesting way to put it, Whooter. Aren't those kids allowed some say in finding their own paths in life?

Kinda reminds me of your comment about having a duty to mold and shape your children. Jes saying'...

Their own paths in life, yes, I believe as parents we need assist them and help them find themselves and ultimately their own path in life.  It is also our duty to mold and shape them (set a good example, potty train them, teach them good manners and set moral standards, discipline them etc.) as you mentioned.

When it comes to making some life decisions it is up to the parents to intercede and make decisions for the child.  So parents, when faced with a crisis with their child, will choose to seek outside help and others will try to ride it out and hope for the best.  Both of these are decisions that affect the child’s path in life along with several other various medical and academic decisions the parents make.



...

[Ursus]

I think each parent somehow finds the right paths for their children.

Interesting way to put it, Whooter. Aren't those kids allowed some say in finding their own paths in life?

Kinda reminds me of your comment about having a duty to mold and shape your children. Jes saying'...

Their own paths in life, yes, I believe as parents we need assist them and help them find themselves and ultimately their own path in life. It is also our duty to mold and shape them (set a good example, potty train them, teach them good manners and set moral standards, discipline them etc.) as you mentioned.

Oh, just so we're clear: *I* was NOT the original poster who spoke of our "duty to mold and shape our children." You were.

I mentioned that this was your comment. The way you've worded your response above implies that *I* might have been the originator of such a... er... concept, and I just wanna make sure that any such delusions go no further.

--------------

Lest there be any ambiguity 'bout this, here is the original post, emphasis added:

Originally posted on 07 Jun 2010 07:49:

I'm going to treat this as a different conversation than the one we were previously discussing in which you thought you had logical responses to, Whooter.

As the start of a new topic , here, you are saying we can all agree that a program ( it's directors, owners) shouldn't make the child worse off than they already are.   Well to expound upon that concept, is it ethical to force someone through a process that will unquestionably make them different (good or bad depending on the perspective) than they were before?

Until  the person becomes an adult and can decide for themselves then it is our duty as parents to mold them and shape them and provide them with the tools to have a happy, long and successful life.   There child should not be asked .. it should be a process that the parents decide is best for them.



...

[Whooter]

I love to read blogs about this topic. Would you send me some links ? That would be lovely!

And which programs do you consider good and which are not? I must admit I find in every program something that bothers me to the point I would never send my child there , so I wonder.

I know exactly what you mean.  If I didn’t have a need for programs I would never send my child to one.  Take hospitals for example, people get all types of diseases from blood transfusions, viruses in operating rooms and germs on the waiting room.  I don’t think I could find one hospital in the country I would want any of my family members in.  But if I were faced with the decision of having to take them to one I would do it.
I tried getting people interested in rating programs here on fornits but no one was interested and many got outright upset when I posted programs I thought were good.  So I will take a pass on naming any for both out sakes.  As far as the blogs go I don’t keep a list of favorites.   I sometimes google a program name or key word and discover blogs that way.

Also when you write that your daughter connected with lots people on a reunion site for ASR...does that mean she did not maintain that friendship with her peers after she left ASR? (In my country we have a very strong bond with our classmates , because we usually attend school together for many years and the friendships last a life time:)

There were a few that she has kept in contact with, but with this facebook program that she uses she has connected with lots of people she lost touch with including staff.  This also gave her an opportunity to meet other people who went thru ASR who she never met before.

And lastly...what is DJ talking about? What " fiduciary interest in Aspen, his ties to RMA in the 1990's and his TTI meeting in Chicago concerning 'where the real money is, the TBS industry ? " What does that mean?

Ha,Ha,Ha oh boy, you will have to go speak to DJ about that.  If you look at the bottom of his posts you will see he has created a little altar (tongue in cheek) to me in his footer.  His project is my history here on fornits and trying to make his own sense out of various sound bites I have made over the years.  I couldn’t begin to explain them here for you because I dont remember most of them, but if you are interested you can go back and read via DJ’s links in his footer (just click on one).  But you need to go back several pages to understand the gist of the conversation so that they are understood in context if that interests you.



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