RMA staff I remember from RMA, you post yours from CEDU

[Samara]

First, there is nothing wrong with the fact that this forum is not friendly to people who obfuscate the truth about these programs - namely, you. Many us abhor group think - instead, we have a shared experience. I am sorry you cannot tell the difference, and that you continue to set up residence here to purvey your insidious lack of empathy and deterrence.

[Anne Bonney]

Just in case there is any confusion lets take a look at the original post:

"...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

You havent provided proof of this yet.

You make these statement knowing I advocate for a third party sign off on all program placements.  The entire thread on JRC was attempting to understand if shock therapy has any value or is helpful.   It just bugs you that I can think openly and you are forced to follow the group think here.  Therefore you view any open-minded discussion where a person doesn't agree with you as a defense for the industry.



...

Pussy.

Man up.  I provided what I perceived to be minimalization and denial about JRC.  Provide where you even THIHK I posted what you said I did.

[Anne Bonney]

First, there is nothing wrong with the fact that this forum is not friendly to people who obfuscate the truth about these programs - namely, you. Many us abhor group think - instead, we have a shared experience. I am sorry you cannot tell the difference, and that you continue to set up residence here to purvey your insidious lack of empathy and deterrence.

He doesn't get that we have experience INSIDE these places.  It gives us insight wrt the context of what's written in their glossy brochures and webpages that he doesn't posses and never will.

[Joel]

Edited: Wednesday, October 06, 2010

[Whooter]

Just in case there is any confusion lets take a look at the original post:

"...You advocate sending them to these places for virtually anything. You also go out of your way to defend or minimize or justify even the most heinous actions and places."

You havent provided proof of this yet.

You make these statement knowing I advocate for a third party sign off on all program placements.  The entire thread on JRC was attempting to understand if shock therapy has any value or is helpful.   It just bugs you that I can think openly and you are forced to follow the group think here.  Therefore you view any open-minded discussion where a person doesn't agree with you as a defense for the industry.



...

Pussy.

Man up.  I provided what I perceived to be minimalization and denial about JRC.  Provide where you even THIHK I posted what you said I did.

Sorry, Anne, you got caught in another lie.  You make statements about people that are not true ( we both know that).

Go back to your original statement and own what you said.  Calling me names isnt going to help your credibility here.



...

[Anne Bonney]

Sorry, Anne, you got caught in another lie.  You make statements about people that are not true ( we both know that).

Nope.  That's your gig dude.

Go back to your original statement and own what you said.  Calling me names isnt going to help your credibility here.

'saright.....we all knew you'd try to weasel out of it.  You've just proven, again, that you're a liar.

[Awake]

If we’re going to talk about things that way I never got a realistic answer to our conversation Whooter. Why should these institutions operate before they practice?

So if the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?



.

That’s actually a really good question, Awake.  I guess they would be viewed as abusive.  But would they know it themselves?  Maybe they feel they are doing good.  

Take the girl at the pharmacy counter who gives you the morning after pill. Does she know what she is giving you?  Is she considered complicit in the murder of an unborn child?  Is the Pharmacist that fills the prescription?  Or just The doctor who prescribed it?



...

What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

What if the pill isn't a pill but a direct action that controls the behavior and autonomy of another? Holding someone to the ground, insulting them, telling to 'fight for their life'. I'm really not going to go into the whole of Cedu with you, but I'll assert right now that the entire context was abusive, and I'll defend that statement if you want. I think it's a good question too.

If the program is abusive by nature, and the staff are implementing it accordingly, that does not make the staff abusive?

I don't society has enough insight into these programs to make a clear, ethical judgement for how we should prosecute abuse in the troubled teen industry, and it can't operate ethically until we do.



.

I think one needs to decide what the vantage point is before the answer can be attained.

For example if we looked at the staff administering chemotherapy and watched the child slowly get sick, start vomiting, watch her hair fall out, watch her cry and become too embarrassed to have her friends see her.  It is clearly abusive(short term) but we accept it because the abuse may make her better long term.

The same may be true with the staff at these programs that you describe.  You also might consider that very few people could maintain a job where they wake knowing they are going to abusing children.  I couldn’t imagine that any of them feel that way.



...

So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why? We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?




...

You’re previous answer is an example of transactional disqualification Whooter. It takes our conversation out of its original context without answering the question.

I won’t waste my time picking over the flaws in your statement, but I will pose the question to everyone else.



.

So we need to develop a vantage point AFTER they operate? Why?

I am not saying we need to develop a vantage point anywhere.  What I meant is if you just saw the Chemo effects and that was all you were exposed to then you may conclude that the child was being abused.  If you stepped back and saw the sick child walk into the hospital and then visited her a year later (without seeing the process she went through) and saw her healthy you would conclude that the process was not abusive or hurtful to the child.

We have standards in the health industry that clearly define how chemotherapy is to be applied. If the doctor misuses it, he will be prosecuted. The therapy itself is not applied without extremely thourough testing that proves it to be safe for use.

Why are we going to skip this step to let these institutions ‘practice’?

I don’t think we are going to skip any step.  I am not aware of any Defined standards for Therapeutic schools as far as their modalities or processes go.



...

Why shouldn’t parents want clear standards here?


.

[Samara]

First, Whooter, Anne has been consistent on these threads for the duration. You have not.  Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt. Usually, you try to keep a  lid on that because you are smart enough to know that levelheaded debate appears more credible to those who are inexperienced in these matters. But there are a lot of level headed sociopaths out there. They're calm because they don't care. They lack empathy.

The fact is, if you really are BFFs with Rudy Bentz, former CEDU power staff, it says a lot about you as a person. RB was cult guru and inculcated all at the same time.  There are many people who would love to talk to him face to face.

[Whooter]

First, Whooter, Anne has been consistent on these threads for the duration. You have not.  Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt. Usually, you try to keep a  lid on that because you are smart enough to know that levelheaded debate appears more credible to those who are inexperienced in these matters. But there are a lot of level headed sociopaths out there. They're calm because they don't care. They lack empathy.

The fact is, if you really are BFFs with Rudy Bentz, former CEDU power staff, it says a lot about you as a person. RB was cult guru and inculcated all at the same time.  There are many people who would love to talk to him face to face.

Thats classic, Samara.  so now I am BFF's with Rudy Bentz?  Where do you come up with this?  

What if I said:  "Samara I think that you are level headed and calm and I would believe what you say but if it is true that you have been convicted of sexual abuse and have worked as staff in several programs and been fired there are many people who would love to speak with you."

Its okay with you that we just make up theoretical conditions to discuss?



...

[Whooter]

If we’re going to talk about things that way I never got a realistic answer to our conversation Whooter. Why should these institutions operate before they practice?

Why shouldn’t parents want clear standards here?

If given the choice I am sure they would want standards.  Personally I would like to see standards put into place.  I would like to see these places visited and rated by an independent panel of professionals so that we know which ones are the better programs.

As far as I know there is no organization actively doing this.  This probably would have to come from government regulation.



...

[DannyB II]

First, Whooter, Anne has been consistent on these threads for the duration.
 
LOL.....Anne has been consistent on these threads, really. Well in what category would that be. Overzealous, oppressive, opinionated, judgmental, stubborn, blind, verbally abusive, childish, vulgar.
Anne does have passion no doubt, she believes in her causes, I agree with most of her advocacy but she doesn't know how to listen to another point of view without attacking the persons character. In her opinion if you disagree with me you must be wanting to hurt the kids or you are brainwashed, that's it.  

You have not.  Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt. Usually, you try to keep a  lid on that because you are smart enough to know that levelheaded debate appears more credible to those who are inexperienced in these matters. But there are a lot of level headed sociopaths out there. They're calm because they don't care. They lack empathy.

How about his strength is being level headed and leave it at that, because if you go any further you had better throw Ursus in that circle because you just described him also. Just because someone is calm does not mean they have a sense of indifference just means they do not let emotion rule them.
You btw are starting to show your true colors. Why are you here anyways.

The fact is, if you really are BFFs with Rudy Bentz, former CEDU power staff, it says a lot about you as a person. RB was cult guru and inculcated all at the same time.  There are many people who would love to talk to him face to face.

Inculcate said resembled Lane Mechem ( missplelled).....funny stuff here..

[Anne Bonney]

 Your strength is articulation and retaining a level of calm, which sometimes veers toward subtle contempt.

 :notworthy:  :notworthy:

Understatement of the year.

[Anne Bonney]

In her opinion if you disagree with me you must be wanting to hurt the kids or you are brainwashed, that's it.  

Don't attempt to speak for me.  You're barely capable of speaking for yourself.

[Samara]

1. I am simply saying Anne's position is consistent.  I don't really understand the problem with her passion - if you were systematically abused (and in my view, Straight was particularly degrading) and wanted to save people from similar experiences,then passion is warranted.  If you went on a site for abuse victims, and tried to mitigate/invalidate their experiences, you should expect to draw ire. Same here.  She is sincere. That says a lot.

2. Then, yes, I am attacking Whooter - but not for being level headed. The calm demeanor is tactical, and if you reviewed all the posts for the past few years, you might understand why so many people with different temperaments take issue with him. It is all smoke and mirrors. And for people ho were hurt in these programs it is all the more insulting.

3. I was addressing Whooter's affilation with Rudy. The BFF was just me being snarky. DB - You don't know Rudy. He was notorious power staff at CEDU.  He was subsequently affiliated wit Whooter's beloved program.  Whooter's program is not benign if they employ the same staff and the same experientials.

4. Whooter gets under people's skin because he uses the "let's have a two-sided debate" strategically. It is a persona created to undermine the anti-program perspective. It is not a persona rooted in authenticity. We have all seen that over years of posts. It is insulting and frankly, hurtful. I'm not going to sit here and pretend I don't care. It's not that he takes an opposing view - he takes an invalidating view. But pretends not to. However, I will say he is skilled and surgical. But insincere.

5. I said there are many people who would love to speak to Rudy.  As in former students who seek closure. Haven't you ever wanted to speak to any former staff who were particularly abusive, as an adult? They no longer have power of you.

6. I'm not sure why you'd insult Anne's style without reflecting on your past posts.  I  expect you to belittle me after I tell you this, but your sexualized verbal aggression toward her in one of the threads was very unsettling. It actually hurt to read it just as a human being.

[Troll Control]

Whooter is "surgical"?  I could not disagree more.  His approach is as ham-handed as it comes.  Notwithstanding how he writes, he cannot form a logical thought or have a rational argument.  He simply avoids what he doesn't want to talk about while responding with ad hominems galore.  If that doesn't work, he makes up "data" from thin air and presents it as if it were valid somehow.  That's not surgical.  That's run-of-the-mill dumbassery.

But you are right about his sexualized aggression toward Anne.  He obviously needs attention from a woman for whatever reason and he has seen a picture of Anne's bikini'ed backside which he has brought up several times.  It's no stretch of the imagination to envision him sitting there at his desk furiously masturbating while looking at Anne's picture and degrading her on Fornits.  He is definitely one seriously warped person.  But you hit it on the head - it's aggressive and it's sexualized.