Carlbrook

[psy]

It also sounds to me Niles that her son wasn't ready for her either. Hence his opting out to return to a boarding school afterwards.

Charley, was he offered an opportunity to return home after Carlbrook?

[Charly]

Psy- I'm talking about kids screaming at their own parents in group telling them they hate them and won't come home.  Also, I am talking about showing feelings to each other in private, as well as groups. This worked really well in wilderness and some of the time at Carlbrook.

My son did fine with the wilderness food.  He is very fit and appreciated the nutrition, which was good.  He even cooked some of the stuff for us on a camping trip.  His gear was incredible (we have 2 sets of it....). It is top of the line and he was warm and protected. The January nights were rough if you had to get out of your bag, he said.   He was really, really proud of his wilderness time.  

Here is the big disconnect-   my kid could not stay at home.  That is what I can't seem to get across.   Our family could not function and he was begging for rescue. The rescue he got wasn't what he wanted, but we didn't know what else to do.  You can gleefully say "why waste the money when Carlbrook doesn't work", but the point is, our son had to go somewhere.  My choice was wilderness or a RTC because he would not willingly go anywhere.

[psy]

:flame: Thats a very, very, very selfish and sick thing to say. You cant just dismiss your own flesh and blood (to a PROGRAM no less!) when you're not ready to be a parent, you don't have that option, you are the ADULT, he is the CHILD, is he not.

It may seem selfish, but it's a very common thing to say, and for parents to do.  Some kids to raise hell and drive their parents mad.  Program offers an attractive (but illusionary) "way out".

With all the bad reports from program, parents often end up thinking their kids are worse than when they went in.  With the emphasis on "do not take your kid back or else... BOO!!" what do you really expect most parents to do.  My parents were the exception, they took me back an I did fine.  How many parents are willing to take that risk, especially when they see being at home as a risk to their kid?

So, again, why was he in the sticks and then a program because of your parenting mistakes that you only generally admit to?

All parents make mistakes, and some parents make very few mistakes and their kids still end up a bit off.  Just look at Exhausted.

The problem is choice.  Kids have free will.  The only thing programs try to do is take away that will so they behave in a "normal" manner.

[Nihilanthic]

Does "first, do no harm" click in your head??

You dont throw away a child, you deal with it, you're the parent, you're HIS parent, and no child gets screwed up all by themselves (except via negligence, which is a problem with parents and a 'choice' by programmie logic...) and some things called betrayal, isolation, abandonment, and manipulation.

And all of that was done to your own flesh and blood. And you don't seem to care. You don't even seem to recognize that it happened, much less the signifigance of it.

Can you just not comprehend it? Can you not understand what he and all those other children went through?

I'll just be blunt - are you THAT dense?

[Charly]

Of course he could have come home after Carlbrook.  I don't think you guys understand the opportunities he had at boarding school.  It was a big sacrifice for us to send him, but it was what he wanted academically and athletically.  He chose the path that he thought would get him the best athletic training with strong academics so he could go to the type college he (He-not we) wanted.  He came home every break and we went up to see him a lot and went on college and recruiting visits with him.  
"We weren't ready for him" is a fair statement.  He had done some horrible things to us and to our household.  We did not trust that he was ready to come home and we did not have educational options here for him anyway.  We were told very clearly by therapists that we trusted that it was too soon for him to come home.  As I said, he NOW agrees with that.  He just doesn't think Carlbrook was the right kind of place for him.   He clearly stated this week that coming home would not have been the right thing for him and he would not be where he is right now if he had come home.

Niles- I'm sorry I can't say what you want me to say, which is that these two programs abused my son and I'm sorry I was a horrible, selfish parent who hated my kid.  That's not the case.  I am no longer convinced the TBS model is a good one. I think it has some serious flaws.   I AM convinced my son's particular wilderness program is a good one.  

[/i]

[Nihilanthic]

Niles- I'm sorry I can't say what you want me to say, which is that these two programs abused my son and I'm sorry I was a horrible, selfish parent who hated my kid.

BULLSHIT?

There goes the fucking Struggling Turkey spin machine all over again, putting words in my mouth and trying to villify me and make it so I said things I didn't say so you can win an arguement of your own construction.

Nice try, but I will give you the pleasure of seeing me pissed the fuck off, because I am. I'm free to tell you off, I'm not under duress or coersion, and I am infact free white and over 21.

I never said you hated your child, but you are being pretty selfish and pretty DENSE.

Programs, LGATS... are abusive, are traumatic, and you don't seem to care about that, just about the 'product' - how your child acts once he gets out of it. Why?

Another thing, if that "Wilderness" was so good, and so non abusive, what did it do? how did it do what it did? What about the whole lack of choice factor that is so carefully danced around?

SPECIFICS. FACTS. No more emotional generalized nonsense, Karen. What did it do and how did you do it, and I don't want any damned FEELINGS or BELIEFS, becuase they don't matter one iota. Nobody cares how you feel here. We care about the thousands of children going through hell right now!

[psy]

Psy- I'm talking about kids screaming at their own parents in group telling them they hate them and won't come home.  Also, I am talking about showing feelings to each other in private, as well as groups. This worked really well in wilderness and some of the time at Carlbrook.

It may seem to be beneficial, but if it's coerced, it will do far more harm than good in the long run.

My son did fine with the wilderness food.  He is very fit and appreciated the nutrition, which was good.  He even cooked some of the stuff for us on a camping trip.  His gear was incredible (we have 2 sets of it....). It is top of the line and he was warm and protected. The January nights were rough if you had to get out of your bag, he said.   He was really, really proud of his wilderness time.  

Here is the big disconnect-   my kid could not stay at home.  That is what I can't seem to get across.   Our family could not function and he was begging for rescue. The rescue he got wasn't what he wanted, but we didn't know what else to do.  You can gleefully say "why waste the money when Carlbrook doesn't work", but the point is, our son had to go somewhere.  My choice was wilderness or a RTC because he would not willingly go anywhere.

Knowing what you know now about Carlbrook, would you have looked for another option for your son?

I know your kid was getting in trouble and running riot, but if a place does not work what good would it do?  It seems like introspection was the most beneficial for your son...

I know the answer to this but it might help others here to understand:  Couldn't a normal boarding school have been an acceptable solution?  Therapy?

Honestly it's hard to give alternatives to parents because there aren't many well-publicized alternatives out there.  I understand full well why parents in a difficult situation often see programs as the only alternative; however, i truly feel that if parents had full knowledge of what programs did they would not consider it.

Why is it so hard to convince parents of this?  Becuase it takes ages to explain the intricate aspects of how programs mess with your mind.  It's why I created my website.

While everybody here probably aggrees that programs are bad, what alternatives are there?  For behavioral issues (stealing cars, breaking stuff, getting kicked out of schools, etc..) programs offer to fix what parents can't figure out a way to do on their own.  It's horse-shit but it works if you have a good sales-pitch and your customers are desperate.

[psy]

Can you just not comprehend it? Can you not understand what he and all those other children went through?

I'll just be blunt - are you THAT dense?

No she can't comprehend it... yet.  Calling her dense isn't going to fix that and actually makes it less likely that we will have a chance to help her understand.

[Nihilanthic]

Perhaps so. I'm definitely not cut out to deal with this... I just have a problem with someone who only cares about someone "out to make her feel guilty" complete with shakesperian over-complaining instead of daring to look at facts and specifics, look at what was done to her child, and *GASP* go find an actual psychologist to give her child some real therapy if he is willing instead of coersion and nonsense.

[hanzomon4]

Regardless of whether or not things turned out ok, it's important to realize that, in hindsight,  you took a risk and placed your child in harms way by sending him/her to a facility that is unlicensed, unregulated, and run by people with no credentials other than questionable good intentions . Desperation and a lack of options is only a reason, not justification.  If the child can admit his/her mistakes the parent had better do the same when it comes to the decision of subjecting them to an abusive environment, even when that decision is made in ignorance and desperation. This is not directed only at you(Charly), but at the mentality of most program parents to see no wrong in their decision to place their child in an unsafe environment. By unsafe I don't necessarily mean abusive, sending a child to an unregulated, unlicensed facility run by unqualified staff  equals a non-justifiable risk and a serious err in the judgment of the parent

[psy]

Programs, LGATS... are abusive, are traumatic, and you don't seem to care about that, just about the 'product' - how your child acts once he gets out of it. Why?

My guess Is that it's because of guilt.  It's not easy for parents to talk about what might/did have happend to their kid.  At least her son seems to have survived the place intact (but time will tell... ptsd takes a while).

Nobody cares how you feel here. We care about the thousands of children going through hell right now!

And if you truly care about the kids you realise that the only way to help them is by reaching the parents.

Parents telling other parents "don't do what we did" is a lot more likely to be listened to than a kid telling a parent "don't put your kid through what i went through".  That's a fact.

[Charly]

I believe what my son tells me.  He is fine.

A regular boarding school was not an option. He got kicked out of one. He interviewed and applied to 6 and was rejected from all because of getting kicked out of one.  These schools don't take problems.  There has never been a parent who has tried to bail out a kid more than I have.  I defended him against the expulsion, did everything to help him get into another school,but it didn't work.  

Knowing what I know now, I would look for something different post wilderness.  But I did not know what I know now and I have no way to know what the result of a different choice would have been.  I can't imagine my son could possibly be in any better place than he is right now.

I think this discussion is deteriorating and should take a break.

[Nihilanthic]

I'm done then. In the real world when you reach your limit you're able to say enough and leave... and Im going to exercise that.

Sorry, Karen, its both useless to snap at you and hurting you won't possibly do any good, and two wrongs don't make a right... and hurting anyone is always bad, period.

Just give a little thought to what its like to have to go through that, and try to think about why people like me are so ticked off about all of this.

[psy]

Of course he could have come home after Carlbrook.  I don't think you guys understand the opportunities he had at boarding school.

I've been to both boarding school and program.  I liked boarding school. I really really liked it.  It was an opportunity to be independant, and offered way more academic (among other things) opportunities than where I was at home.  It had nothing to do with hating my parents (though i'm not always fond of them).

It was a big sacrifice for us to send him, but it was what he wanted academically and athletically.  He chose the path that he thought would get him the best athletic training with strong academics so he could go to the type college he (He-not we) wanted.  He came home every break and we went up to see him a lot and went on college and recruiting visits with him.  
"We weren't ready for him" is a fair statement.  He had done some horrible things to us and to our household.  We did not trust that he was ready to come home and we did not have educational options here for him anyway.  We were told very clearly by therapists that we trusted that it was too soon for him to come home.

Were these therapists associated with carlbrook?  had they based their decision (even partially) on carlbrook's review/recommendations?

As I said, he NOW agrees with that.  He just doesn't think Carlbrook was the right kind of place for him.   He clearly stated this week that coming home would not have been the right thing for him and he would not be where he is right now if he had come home.

Niles- I'm sorry I can't say what you want me to say, which is that these two programs abused my son and I'm sorry I was a horrible, selfish parent who hated my kid.  That's not the case.  I am no longer convinced the TBS model is a good oneI think it has some serious flaws.   I AM convinced my son's particular wilderness program is a good one.

Based on my research into your kid's wilderness program, and the lack of abuse accusations, I would have to agree.  Wilderness is still a loaded gun.  Out in the isolated wilds of nowhere, what can kids really do to report abuses if they happen?

[Nihilanthic]

What the hell does wilderness isolation have to do with therapy or any beneficial effect?

What on earth does 'wilderness' do, or do the people do and wilderness is just a setting for it?

To me, I see people not used to living in dirt, dirty, unwashed, with shitty food and forced to rely on people they dont like who very well might be unpleasant (or worse) to them, considering most of the crux of wilderness programs is about pushing their buttons until they break down, making them do repetetive tasks and make fire, and then have outbursts from emotional nonsense and use facepaint and indian names.

And of course they can't say uncle and go home.

Unless this place is different...