Taken from Teen Rescue website. (Fucked UP SHIT)

[Anonymous]

Sometimes, the best thing you can do is back off, and let the kid see where his actions get him. In these boarding schools, kids are often forced to do time in solitary confinement, write long "self-correction" essays, etc. In real life, you get the natural consequence of your actions. The program teach nothing but how to avoid punishment. "

trust me they did back off then they tried back on then they tried therapist then they tried rules and limits then they tried amnesty, not a single shred of appreciation for their efforts.

your right in ways it is not like real life, but to say it circumvents the kids coping skills is a joke.  

what coping skills do these kids have by the way?  os that supposed to be a joke?  my relative, after his dad caught him steeling and got punched in the face for trying to stop him, went to live with another relative.  they knew the situation and told the kid, "while we figure out what to do we wont be trying to control you" (thats the kids biggest issue, he wont stand anyone who puts a limit on him).  an older relative took him to a party where there would be some college kids, and told him dont drink or smoke pot or i wont take you out again.  at that point he had everything he wanted, no one told him when to go to bed, no one told him to do his summerschool work (which obviously was not done), he was his own man.

he still just couldnt miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  his older cousin caught him smoking and drinking at that party because little frankie couldnt bear the thought of these older kids not knowing exactly how cool he was.

what frankie didnt realize is that the universal opinion of him at that party was "dumb loser".

this program IS MORE LIKE REAL LIFE FOR THIS PARTICULAR KID BECAUSE at home when he got caught steeling he could lie and manipulate his way at of consequence.  like life and unlike his home life, when he screws up there the consequences will be real and immediate

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-22 12:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"let me continue:  the only thing that would fix this problem is a time machine that can take us back to when the kid was 10 (a year before his personality changed and he became stoner loser rebel frankie at 11; im not exagerating, those are the things he finds cool)



at THAT time his parents needed to see the signs of a kid that was a bit too apathetic about following rules and school, and really shrink his world till he started acting right.



as to the link i will find it and paste it here, but let me clarify one thing.  the research showed that people with drug addiction tend to stop emotionally maturing and they call it a "developmental gap".  knowing what little i do about neuroscinece i know that this has something to do with the frontal lobe, but i know it cant be physical damage being caused or me and some of my more mature stoner friends would have been a lot mroe screwed up than we were, and we would still be unable immature



i took the next step on my own and said it must be some cognitive barriers that the kids are setting up against their own emotional development.  



taking me and my firends vs. frank and his friends at the same ages, the difference seemed pretty clear.  we waited till 14 to start smoking (a lot older than 11) and by that time had a bunch of non-counter culture values ingrained in our heads.  for instance, we wanted to get at least decent grades to leave college as a possibility.



we felt GUILTY not empowered when we were caught, like we disgraced our families and ourselves.  we then stopped doing drugs and made sure to get decent grades at least for the next semester to prove to our parents that we were ok because, even though we thought and still think pot is harmless, we knew we were scaring our folks, and that mattered to us.  we still went out and broke things, caused a scene whenever and wherever, disrespected authority, smoked in the boys room, but we had 14 year old vaules which unlike 11 year old values include concern for other people.



lets face it what is a preteen but someone only capable of thinking about themselves.  from the age my cousin starting hanging with his friends his life became all about bucking the system to make his new identity:  stoner frankie.  with that attitude and at that age with those friends is it any surprise frankie decided traditional cultural values are not suitable for him.  im not saying ites because of the pot, the pot is a symptom of his behavioral problems, but the people that it draws him too are not helping.



in my school i was considered a rebel for being a stoner at 14, and like almost everyone who starts smoking weed young i loved being a pothead, but with that i loved showing that a pothead did not necessarily need to be an idiot, and so did my boys and girls.  thats the differenece."

Again-- can you provide any links to all these neuroscience/psychology/emotional development researches you keep referring to? Or are these not scientific researches at all, but your own opinions?

You seem to make a lot of generalizations. Sure, many kids go through a "selfish" phase. There are also many who do not. Not all preteens are "counter culture stoners".

That kid you keep talking about was 12-13 years old at the time. He hasn't yet decided anything about his values, attitude toward culture, etc. That will come later. Now, he's just doing what feels right at the moment. He obviously has issues to deal with, which make him behave in ways his parents don't approve of. You make a huge leap who you state that he has rejected cultural values and norms.

When I was 11, I thought smoking cigarettes was really cool. I'd sneak out of school to smoke with my friends at the park. About a year later, I grew out of it and moved on. Does that make me a "counter culture stoner", too?

So many things can change. Kids who are 11-12 years old are still pretty undeveloped as far as their values and priorities go. Locking them up prevents them from experiencing real life, and shaping their own point of view and values.

[Anonymous]

one more thought.  someone said the programs show the kid how to avoid punishment and make him wright essays:  good

he could have avoided punishment by taking his 130 iq and passing high school, or god forbid telling his friends "sorry guys, super rebel cant blaze hippie lettuce today because my parents are testing me" but he never did

you said they need to step back and see where it was going.  clearly you are the expert on the situation and no kid can benefeit from alternative education.

on the other hand it was pretty clear to anyone who actually knew anything about the situation and the kid where it was heading.  worse every year, and eventually to prison.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-22 12:45:00, Anonymous wrote:

"

Sometimes, the best thing you can do is back off, and let the kid see where his actions get him. In these boarding schools, kids are often forced to do time in solitary confinement, write long "self-correction" essays, etc. In real life, you get the natural consequence of your actions. The program teach nothing but how to avoid punishment. "

trust me they did back off then they tried back on then they tried therapist then they tried rules and limits then they tried amnesty, not a single shred of appreciation for their efforts.



your right in ways it is not like real life, but to say it circumvents the kids coping skills is a joke.  



what coping skills do these kids have by the way?  os that supposed to be a joke?  my relative, after his dad caught him steeling and got punched in the face for trying to stop him, went to live with another relative.  they knew the situation and told the kid, "while we figure out what to do we wont be trying to control you" (thats the kids biggest issue, he wont stand anyone who puts a limit on him).  an older relative took him to a party where there would be some college kids, and told him dont drink or smoke pot or i wont take you out again.  at that point he had everything he wanted, no one told him when to go to bed, no one told him to do his summerschool work (which obviously was not done), he was his own man.



he still just couldnt miss an opportunity to miss an opportunity.  his older cousin caught him smoking and drinking at that party because little frankie couldnt bear the thought of these older kids not knowing exactly how cool he was.



what frankie didnt realize is that the universal opinion of him at that party was "dumb loser".



this program IS MORE LIKE REAL LIFE FOR THIS PARTICULAR KID BECAUSE at home when he got caught steeling he could lie and manipulate his way at of consequence.  like life and unlike his home life, when he screws up there the consequences will be real and immediate"

So his relatives provided him with cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol? and let him basically do whatever he wanted? And now you're surprised that he hasn't learned to respect authority? Were the hell were his parents back then?...

Programs are nothing like real life. In real life, there are consequences. But they are *real life* consequences. Being considered a dumb loser by everybody is a consequence. Failing school is a consequence. It may take Frankie some time to figure these consequences out, but that doesn't make them non-existant.

The consequences given in programs often have nothing to do with the child "offense". Therefor, they fail to teach the child anything that can be applied to his/her situation. For example: Frankie doesn't study, and fails some classes. In real life, this could mean having to repeat the grade. In a program, he would have to write a "self correction" essay.

Consequences like that, which have nothing to do with the "offense" and which do not stem directly from it, are useless. The child can't really learn anything from them other than "don't get caught" and "do the minimum to get by".

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-22 12:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"one more thought.  someone said the programs show the kid how to avoid punishment and make him wright essays:  good



he could have avoided punishment by taking his 130 iq and passing high school, or god forbid telling his friends "sorry guys, super rebel cant blaze hippie lettuce today because my parents are testing me" but he never did



you said they need to step back and see where it was going.  clearly you are the expert on the situation and no kid can benefeit from alternative education.

I don't remember stating in any of my posts that I am an "expert". By posting about this situation, you are asking for my opinion. If you are not interested in what I have to say, stop addressing me, and stop reading my posts.

on the other hand it was pretty clear to anyone who actually knew anything about the situation and the kid where it was heading.  worse every year, and eventually to prison."

You're a fortune teller, I see. You know for certain that the boy would end up in prison. You're not even giving him a chance.

[Anonymous]

Again-- can you provide any links to all these neuroscience/psychology/emotional development researches you keep referring to? Or are these not scientific researches at all, but your own opinions?

i said i would provide a link i still havnet had time to find it since im here constantly replying to people who dont even read my posts.

i say you didnt even read because i was very clear which part was the research and which part was my opinion.  sorry you, like the brat child, are just gonna have to go back and earn this one on your own because if i just give it to you, you will never learn anything

That kid you keep talking about was 12-13 years old at the time. He hasn't yet decided anything about his values, attitude toward culture, etc. That will come later. Now, he's just doing what feels right at the moment. He obviously has issues to deal with, which make him behave in ways his parents don't approve of. You make a huge leap who you state that he has rejected cultural values and norms.

no i dont make any leap because i talk to this kid everyday.  if you had read what i wrote you will see that IN MY OPINION it is all about the values you and YOUR FRIENDS have.

When I was 11, I thought smoking cigarettes was really cool. I'd sneak out of school to smoke with my friends at the park. About a year later, I grew out of it and moved on. Does that make me a "counter culture stoner", too?

tell me what happened to your friends.  lets say it was you and two buddies.  did one die of a cocain overdose, and did the other go to juvie for stabbing someone?

the guys i smoked cigrarrettes with, like your smoking buddies went on to school and had a normal life, and got good jobs.

So many things can change. Kids who are 11-12 years old are still pretty undeveloped as far as their values and priorities go. Locking them up prevents them from experiencing real life, and shaping their own point of view and values.

DID YOU READ A SINGLE WORD I WRITE BESIDES THE FIRST LINE OF EVERY PARAGRAPH.  The kid is 16.5 today, failing out of school with a 130 IQ, running away from home, and getting girls pregnant.  HES NOT 11 ANYMORE AND IT IS ALMOST TOO LATE.  and btw, that is the age where you start developing your young adult values, by 16.5 and with a set circle of friends its just too late.

professionals have seen this kid, the parents got third fourth and fifth opinions.  sorry you arent qualified to compare your life to my realtive's.

[Anonymous]

p.s. by posting i was giving an exampple of a child who desparately needs a change of enviorment and a rude awakening.  i would not dream of asking your opinion cuz you hang out on bratty teen forums and defend america's fuckups, and because we have sought the opinions of professionals and myself who is pretty damn close to one.

p.p.s.  maybe he wouldnt be in prison but he was an eyelash away from dropping out of highschool.  if you ask anyone who knows anything if thats a bad sign in a kid with an IQ of 130 he will say plain and simple:  yes, a very bad sign.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-22 12:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

i said i would provide a link i still havnet had time to find it since im here constantly replying to people who dont even read my posts.



i say you didnt even read because i was very clear which part was the research and which part was my opinion.  sorry you, like the brat child, are just gonna have to go back and earn this one on your own because if i just give it to you, you will never learn anything

You really need to learn more about communication and debate. When you refer to research or articles, you need to provide a link so that people could see what you're talking about. Sure, I could go off talking about some article I read, or some research, but would you be able to comment on it if you haven't had a chance to read it yourself? Not really.

You don't really have anything of value to add, so you're getting into personal attacks. VERY mature. Calling these kids "brats" shows just how badly you think of them, which is just sad. How do pretend to "help" people you hold in such contempt?

tell me what happened to your friends.  lets say it was you and two buddies.  did one die of a cocain overdose, and did the other go to juvie for stabbing someone?



the guys i smoked cigrarrettes with, like your smoking buddies went on to school and had a normal life, and got good jobs.

Same with my friends. That's the way it is with most kids. They explore, they mature, they move on to bigger and greater things. Most kids just need time.

DID YOU READ A SINGLE WORD I WRITE BESIDES THE FIRST LINE OF EVERY PARAGRAPH.  The kid is 16.5 today, failing out of school with a 130 IQ, running away from home, and getting girls pregnant.  HES NOT 11 ANYMORE AND IT IS ALMOST TOO LATE.  and btw, that is the age where you start developing your young adult values, by 16.5 and with a set circle of friends its just too late.



professionals have seen this kid, the parents got third fourth and fifth opinions.  sorry you arent qualified to compare your life to my realtive's."

Yeah, I'm reading your posts. And it looks like his parents did a pretty good job at teaching him that if he makes enough of a fuss, they're just going to give up and let him do whatever he wants. And they gave up yet again-- they paid a program to do their job for them.

Qualified? Maybe on your planet people need "qualifications" to participate in a discussion. Not here. You're the one who brought this subject up, not me. Again-- if you don't want to read what I have to say, stop addressing me.

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-22 13:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"p.s. by posting i was giving an exampple of a child who desparately needs a change of enviorment and a rude awakening.  i would not dream of asking your opinion cuz you hang out on bratty teen forums and defend america's fuckups, and because we have sought the opinions of professionals and myself who is pretty damn close to one.



p.p.s.  maybe he wouldnt be in prison but he was an eyelash away from dropping out of highschool.  if you ask anyone who knows anything if thats a bad sign in a kid with an IQ of 130 he will say plain and simple:  yes, a very bad sign."

Your constant use of personal attacks is amusing, but it doesn't really add much to the discussion. Just proves that you don't really have much to say anymore.

By bringing this subject into the discussion-- a discussion you were having with me-- you have asked for my comment on the subject. For the third time: if you don't want to read what I have to say, stop reading my posts and stop addressing me.

There's a huge difference between being a professional and being "pretty damn close".

As for the 130 IQ issue... gifted kids are far more likely to get into trouble than "average" kids. They are far more likely to do bad at school because they often find school to be boring and unchallenging. That's common knowledge.

[Anonymous]

So his relatives provided him with cigarettes, drugs, and alcohol? and let him basically do whatever he wanted? And now you're surprised that he hasn't learned to respect authority? Were the hell were his parents back then?...

again, a little literacy can go a long way.

had you actually listened before opening you mouth you would have read that this incedent where the older cosine made the mistake of giving him the benefeit of the doubt happened once, very recently, and will never happen again.

only after he needed to be removed from his house for ASSAULTING HIS PARENTS did that take place, and by that time alternative schooling was pretty much on the horizon.  that was the straw that made me see that this kid would not change no matter what.

if the kid got b's and c's i would tell his parents "a lot of kids smoke pot every day, back off him a bit if he continues to do ok in the rest of life" but i could not find one example in the rest of his life to indicate he was "OK"


Programs are nothing like real life. In real life, there are consequences. But they are *real life* consequences. Being considered a dumb loser by everybody is a consequence. Failing school is a consequence.

those arent consequences, those are his goals, thats what he aims to do because in his messed up mind people respect him more the less he does.

It may take Frankie some time to figure these consequences out, but that doesn't make them non-existant.

your right, he will one day realize what an idiot he was, and he will stioll be an emotional midget who threw away the last best opportunities he had in life.  for years he will be working to catch up, and he will probably never achieve what he could have had he learned to persevere while young.

The consequences given in programs often have nothing to do with the child "offense". Therefor, they fail to teach the child anything that can be applied to his/her situation. For example: Frankie doesn't study, and fails some classes. In real life, this could mean having to repeat the grade.

wrong again.  in real life his parents stuck him n a private school to get him away from the last group of degenerates only to discover there are degenerates everywhere.  in real life this same private school pushes him along because they will do anything to keep getting the parents money, you dont get left back in a private school and continue at that school.  They'd stick him in summer school and rubber stamp a passing grade as they teach to the lowest common denominator, and that is exaclty where he was when he started beating up mom and dad.  but of course hes just a kid who deserves yet another 2nd chance right?

In a program, he would have to write a "self correction" essay.

you mean for the first time in his life hes gonna wright an essay that wasnt copied and pasted from the internet?

Consequences like that, which have nothing to do with the "offense" and which do not stem directly from it, are useless. The child can't really learn anything from them other than "don't get caught" and "do the minimum to get by".

doing the minimum to get by is probably the most essestial skill an underachiever can learn.  everyone knows high school is just a way to keep kids busy until space clears in the work force (and these days so is college).  the only hard part is "turning it on" when it really does matter.  even in real life, sometimes you gotta do the minimum (come to a full stop at a stop sign even when you clearly see no cars are comming) so that you can roll with society

[Anonymous]

Your constant use of personal attacks is amusing, but it doesn't really add much to the discussion. Just proves that you don't really have much to say anymore. i didnt attack you, i stated a reality.  im not asking for your opinion im sticking to the point "some kids need alternative schooling"  the reason you cant handle that is because your point "all alternative schools make matters worse, and no kid needs to go to one" is universally accepted bunk.

By bringing this subject into the discussion-- a discussion you were having with me-- you have asked for my comment on the subject.

progress, thats right i asked for your opinion on the subject.  that means the one we are talking about:  original posters noncustodial kid and the possibility that maybe he needs an alternative education.

by trying to act like you have some insight on my situation w/o even reading the full content on my posts just tells me you are going in the wrong direction.

For the third time: if you don't want to read what I have to say, stop reading my posts and stop addressing me.

why would i do that, by actuallyr eading them and responding maybe some spineless parents who fears sending their monster to alternative school will see how shallow and superficial the arguments against these schools are.

again, im not saying all schools are equal, but thats the point.  the iriginal posters school is the one i ahve experience with, and i happen to know many troubled teens.

There's a huge difference between being a professional and being "pretty damn close"

by definition something that is pretty damn close in not "a huge difference".  

[q]As for the 130 IQ issue... gifted kids are far more likely to get into trouble than "average" kids. They are far more likely to do bad at school because they often find school to be boring and unchallenging. That's common knowledge.[/q]

which is all well and good until the kid reaches adulthood and is still a fuckup.  oops!

by 16.5 you should be getting better not worse

[Antigen]

On 2005-07-21 18:50:00, Three Springs Waygookin wrote:

"18. Get picked up by degenerate pedeaphile and get molested.

Or, confide in a friend or relative, get tricked and picked up by a paid escort and delivered, in cuffs if neccessary, to a degenerate pedeophile who will laugh in their face when they try to tell anybody about what they're doing.

Do you have any idea what goes on in some of these places? Really?

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing
--Edmund Burke

[Anonymous]

On 2005-07-22 13:19:00, Anonymous
again, a little literacy can go a long way.



had you actually listened before opening you mouth you would have read that this incedent where the older cosine made the mistake of giving him the benefeit of the doubt happened once, very recently, and will never happen again.



only after he needed to be removed from his house for ASSAULTING HIS PARENTS did that take place, and by that time alternative schooling was pretty much on the horizon.  that was the straw that made me see that this kid would not change no matter what.



if the kid got b's and c's i would tell his parents "a lot of kids smoke pot every day, back off him a bit if he continues to do ok in the rest of life" but i could not find one example in the rest of his life to indicate he was "OK"

Again, you use personal attacks. Very mature, "pretty damn closer to professional".  :roll:

Sounds like you really don't believe this kid is capable of anything but negative stuff. It's not a big surprise you think he should be in a program. You see these kids the exact same way the porgrams see them-- destructive, manipulative animals who do have no positive qualities whatsoever.

those arent consequences, those are his goals, thats what he aims to do because in his messed up mind people respect him more the less he does.

So maybe his parents should start asking themselves why does this kid feel like he needs to look for appreciation, respect and attention in this particular way.

your right, he will one day realize what an idiot he was, and he will stioll be an emotional midget who threw away the last best opportunities he had in life.  for years he will be working to catch up, and he will probably never achieve what he could have had he learned to persevere while young.

He will have a lot more to catch up, now that he is in a program. Program stop kids from growing and maturing by not allowing them to take control of their own lives and be responsible for their own actions. In programs, kids are controlled 24/7. They have no way of making their own decisions. This kid will definitely need to learn to function on his own when he gets own-- something his non-programmed friends have learned while he was locked up.

wrong again.  in real life his parents stuck him n a private school to get him away from the last group of degenerates only to discover there are degenerates everywhere.  in real life this same private school pushes him along because they will do anything to keep getting the parents money, you dont get left back in a private school and continue at that school.  They'd stick him in summer school and rubber stamp a passing grade as they teach to the lowest common denominator, and that is exaclty where he was when he started beating up mom and dad.  but of course hes just a kid who deserves yet another 2nd chance right?

So his parents stop him from experiencing the true consequences of his actions? no wonder things turned out as they did.

And, yes, I believe everybody deserve a 2nd chance.

you mean for the first time in his life hes gonna wright an essay that wasnt copied and pasted from the internet?

Nice way to ignore the issue. I was giving this "consequence", which is often used in programs, to demonstrate how it has nothing to do with the "offense". It is not directly related to the "offense". It is simply a way to control these kids.

doing the minimum to get by is probably the most essestial skill an underachiever can learn.  everyone knows high school is just a way to keep kids busy until space clears in the work force (and these days so is college).  the only hard part is "turning it on" when it really does matter.  even in real life, sometimes you gotta do the minimum (come to a full stop at a stop sign even when you clearly see no cars are comming) so that you can roll with society"

So, you've already decided that this kid is doomed to a life of "underachieving", low-paying jobs, and a lifestyle which will not challenge him or motivate him in any way? great...

[Anonymous]

You really need to learn more about communication and debate. When you refer to research or articles, you need to provide a link so that people could see what you're talking about. Sure, I could go off talking about some article I read, or some research, but would you be able to comment on it if you haven't had a chance to read it yourself? Not really.

like i said im looking for my source, and at least i have one.  i dont know if i can find an electronic copy, and if i cant ill scan one for you next time i get my hands on the written one.  or, if you knew anything about the the field of addiction psychology you would see that this new line of thought is making huge waves.  the fact that you have no idea what im talking about shows that you have no idea what your talking about.

You don't really have anything of value to add, so you're getting into personal attacks. VERY mature. Calling these kids "brats" shows just how badly you think of them, which is just sad. How do pretend to "help" people you hold in such contempt?

brat to me and most others sounds nicer and more harmless than "troubled teen" so i guess there goes that point.  hows my arguing now?

[Anonymous]

I'm out of this discussion. You're going around in circles. You obviously have no capability to have an actual discussion with anyone. You throw around comments and examples, and then get pissed when people comment on these.

Grow up, read a little about what goes in these programs, and then, maybe, try again.