How About This Theory

[Son Of Serbia]

I don't recall addressing you Ottawa 5, my question was for Ottawa 2.  The fact that it was you who responded to me in place of your daughter, speaks volumes to me about your relationship with her. Looks like I got my answer after all.


.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-24 13:47 ]

[ottawa5]

I realize that you didn't address your earlier post to me (but to my daughter), but you said some things about me, and about my son, that were off base and needed correcting.  

Sorry if trying to point out the truth is taken to mean that I am really my daughter, that I have taken over her life, or whatever other erroneous impression my post might have given you.

[ehm]

The fact that you are constantly speaking for your son shows your total lack of consideration for his personal boundaries. The fact that you encourage your daughter to participate in this forum also shows your total disregard for what is actually healthy, and growth promoting. Isn't she only 16? Your need to prove yourself right, over the emotional needs, and protection of your daughter speaks for itself. That also explains a lot about your abysmal participation, and in-depth time and emotional/physical energy you put into this site, trying desperately to show yourself that you did not make a terrible mistake in the placement of your son. You are so defensive, and so transparent. I have a hard time finding words for the disgust I feel when reading your posts. Sadly, I doubt you'll ever change, in other words, grow up. Hopefully there is time for your children, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were terrified of ever speaking out against their abuse advocate mother. In time perhaps they will realize that distancing themselves from your control is in their best interest. So far, your daughter just sounds like a carbon copy of you. Why don?t you just stop trying to prove something, and learn to let it go? That seems to be your toughest demon. If you?re so sure of success, why continue trying to prove something? I think I know the answer to that question. Why don?t you come back when you have gained some sense on the word, compassion.

My heart goes out to your future victims.

We can easily forgive a child who is afraid of the dark.  The real tragedy of life is when men are afraid of the light.  
--Plato

[ottawa5]

To Lezli--I don't really think that much productive can come of me addressing your post.  However,humor dictates that someone like you with almost 900 posts is not very well situated to worry about how much time I spend on this site.

Look, if you want to have a reasonable debate or a discussion, I would be delighted.

But get a grip, girl, you don't know me, you don't know my family. Your post is just a study in tantruming, venom and silliness all wrapped into one. If this isn't just about acting for an audience, I feel sorry for you.

Get back to me if and when you want to have a civil discussion.

[Ottawa2]

Hey there everyone!
Thought I would just make a few things clear.
1)My mother does encourage me to do what I want . For example posting on this site, she in no way encorages me to be a "clone copy" one of the biggest things she taught me was individulizim
2)Lezli, I really want to scream at you right now. I stated in my first post on this site that I have dyslexia,(go back and check if you do not belive me) it is very hard for me to spell/read as well as others do and is one of the things that my mother help me over come, not by doing everything for me but by haveing me read and write things myself, she was there if I had a question and was very suppotive.
3) Some complained about my mother responding for me. What about you guys responding for Anti? The question was directed at her.
Also I was out shopping for school today thats why I have not responed and my mother did (she was home studying today and probably posted when she took a break)
4)You people need to read more carefully I stated why my brother did not want to post on this site in one of my last posts. He has to much going on in his life to get involved in this. (Like some of you have)
5)SOS, no, sorry Im going to be 18 in the next couple of days. And, yes I love to go shopping and all of that. But, I find high school guys to be immature, Im often have no money (Spent it all on school supplies) to go shopping, its the summer so even if I wanted to be a cheerleadrer I couldnt, Again no money for concerts, I do have a summer job, but it doesnt take up that much time, but I do hang out with friends a lot.
6)Lezli, it dose not change anything. The people at RMA were able to read the book you quoted and appear to live by word for word
Talk to all of you soon! :wave:

[Son Of Serbia]

You claim that you are an individual, yet you have never expressed one idea on this site that is your own. All of your posts about cedu are clearly regurgitations of your mothers own ramblings, recycled in your own mispelled words.

O2, you are a carbon copy of your mother, and not a very good one at that!

As for your statement "I find highschool guys to be immature." that's the typical excuse made by highschool girls who can't get a date. Let me guess you don't date college guys either, because they're "too mature" right?  you really can't blame the guys for not asking you out, I wouldn't date a carbon copy of Ottawa 5 either!

Y'know, I found this sad enough when I thought you were 16, but 18, that's just a tragedy.  There's a whole big world out there to explore, you really need to get as far away as possible from your control-freak mother, and start living your own life!  

Oh and Ottawa 5, I think what I said in my last post about your relationship with your son was dead on. There's nothing erroneous about it, you are a control-freak! If I'm wrong, then prove it.  Bring your son onto this site!


.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-25 07:04 ]

[ottawa5]

SOS, this is kind of amusing--by your logic, I'm a control freak, I control my son and yet I can't get him to come to this site?

I can't bring my son anywhere, he's a grown-up person.  Guess I could try to cajole or guilt him into it, but we don't have that kind of relationship, I think you are still working on the assumption that I have some kind of mind-control over him, one of the  big HATE-CEDU delusions I hear around here sometimes.

If you would consider for a moment that maybe that's not true, maybe he has his own opinions and can think for himself, then his absence from this site, which he cares nothing about, would make more sense to you.

[Son Of Serbia]

Nice try Ottawa5, but this has nothing to do with "Hate Cedu" delusions.  You and your daughter have been feeding us your second hand accounts of his cedu success story for 2 months now, I want to hear it from him personally.  

It's very easy for the two of you to champion cedu and dismiss the countless daily abuses, which so many posters on this site endured and have described to you.  You consistantly gloss over the abuses that go on there, with your "end justifies the means mentality."  Considering that neither you or your daughter were ever at cedu, you have no basis to defend that position!

Your son was there, if he truly shares your beliefs, then I want him to come out here and say it!  Debating you and your daughter is pointless.  The time has come for Mr. self-surveilance to speak for himself!

.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-25 08:16 ][ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-25 08:16 ]

[Ottawa2]

SOS you really make me laugh!
You logic is very interesting: According to you my mother has control over my brother. But, she cant make him come to this site because of  that control??? Please explain this to me I find it confuseing.
Now wouldnt it be sad if I was a girl that could not get a date? I might be crying right now because of that comment if it was true. Luckly I am able to get a date if I want to but at the moment I feel no need to get into a relationship thats going to end as soon as I leave for college.
I have already explain why my spelling sucks. (dyslexia)
And we ever right to post on this site. We both see how my brother changed after CEDU all of the changes were good.
I have one last question if it is pointless to debat my my mother and me then why to do keep responding to our posts? Just woundering!
 :wave:

[shanlea]

Guys,one of our goals is to cultivate a little more awareness about CEDU for people looking up this site.  It's probably not helpful to get sucked into a quagmire w/the Ottawas by making comments about their son/brother when we do not know who he is, and we don't know anything about the family except their perception that the son is doing better post-CEDU. If he does not want to spend his time debating the merits of CEDU on this site, that is his choice. I'm sure he is a busy dude enjoying life post-CEDU.

Before you get your underwear twisted in a knot, let me remind you where I stand on CEDU. It was a waste of money to spend time in a place with substandard academics, substandard, untrained staff who were not qualified to help children using an individualized approach, abusive therapeutic techniques, lack of therapeutic boundaries with staff who were really working out their own stuff through the students, an overly controlled atmosphere that mitigated the student's ability to deal with the real world later, arbitrary bans etc. etc. etc.

When we engage with the Os, I think it best to argue without commentary about their family, whom we don't know or put-downs about their personal lives.

Also, I would be interested to hear from someone who went to RMA about the same time that Ottawa's son went into the program.

[Anonymous]

O2: my logic is simple, your brother is afraid to come onto this site! Of course your mother cannot make him come onto the site, he doesn't live with her, but for whatever reason, he is afraid to come here.  He lets you and your mom fight his battles for him.  I personally don't think it's because he's afraid of us, i think he's more afraid of disagreeing with and offending your mom.  He's obviously grown up by now, but she still holds some sort of power over him, enough that he can't stand up to her.  You make me laugh, you so enthusiastically defend a program that you have absolutely no experince with, nor first hand knowledge of.  You're just some dumb impressionable kid whose head is filled with empty space and and your mothers been filling it with emotional growth propaganda.  I'm glad you're going away to college, you sound to me like a very repressed child.  Seriously cut loose, take some risks,learn, meet new people, have some fun, figure out who you are ON YOUR OWN.

Shanlea: I respectfully disagree with your views on commenting about Ottawa5's son.  She has in the past and continues to use his "Positive Experience" as an excuse in justifying and dismissing the inherent abusive nature of cedu's program. Whenever anyone on this site has challenged O5's and (to a lesser extent)O2's positive views on aspects of the Cedu program (raps, profeets, the rules, etc.), they consistantly come back with the position " Well.... I know it helped my son (or brother), and this proves that cedu is good."  In their eyes (O5 & O2), the experience of Mr. self-surveilance (and his supposed giant group of "positive cedu friends"  ::bwahaha2:: ), is the end-all, be-all, irrefutable evidence that their position on Cedu is the correct one.  

Shanlea: if the Ottawa's are going to continue to use Mr. self-surveilance's experience and allegedly positive outlook on cedu as evidence to refute and dismiss the abuses, which I, you, and every other ex-cedu student posting on this site endured, then we have every right to question that evidence and comment on those experiences.  This incluides the personal character of Ottawa5's son, and her relationship with him.

As for commenting on the Ottawa family, remember that we did not bring them onto this site, she did that all by herself.  If you ask me, it's all fair game.

[Son Of Serbia]

I wrote the last post

[Anonymous]

Well, I agree w/you about CEDU... and in my opinion, the problem is systemic, not unique, which is why I disagree w/Ottawa.

However, the Ottawas are looking at the fact that their son/bro was getting into trouble and having difficulty at school pre-CEDU and is now successful post-CEDU. To them, that is the proof that CEDU is good. I can't really argue against that except that it does not dispel my belief that CEDU's practices are unethical.

Also, I don't think we can presume why O's son is not at the site. I have no idea why the Ottawas are here. But I would rather not make presuppositions about them like CEDU made about me (like make assumptions about O2's personal life or why O's son updated his family on a trip he took etc.)  I want to get away from CEDU tactics as much as possible.

Ya dig?

[ehm]

On 2004-08-25 08:59:00, shanlea wrote:

When we engage with the Os, I think it best to argue without commentary about their family, whom we don't know or put-downs about their personal lives.

I understand where you're coming from, however, as a victim of almost 4 years incarceration, ages 13-15 in a wilderness adventure program, and the other Straight, Inc. ages 15-17, along with the extreme loss and psychological distress I have felt because of that time, it is very hard for me not to be angered by O5's posts. Due to that I slipped in some jabs which were not necessary.  O5 has stated many times that she wants to open a ?program? of her own, disregarding and/or minimizing any and all accounts of harm, neglect and abuse, emotionally and physically. She, in my opinion, is the epitome of a neglectful controller who is here to make herself feel better for a choice she cannot change. Her aspiration to open her own mind rape mill also tells me that she has something to prove, ?Look what a good parent I am!? ?Look how helpful and good the program is!? It just hits a  nerve with me.  I appreciate her being vocal with her ideas, because it shows me how strong denial can be, and helps me understand others who are like her, like my own mother, who is just now beginning to come to terms with what her choices did for me, 18 years ago.

Also, I would be interested to hear from someone who went to RMA about the same time that Ottawa's son went into the program.

I?d be very interested in hearing from them too.

The internet interprets censorship as damage and routes around it.
--John Gilmour

[Son Of Serbia]

I dig shanlea, I just don't agree with you.  The ottawas consistant use of Mr. self surveilance's alledged success story as a means to support the "end justifies the means meantality" demonstrated by them, is a tactic taken right out of the Cedu Handbook.  

at Cedu whenever any student questioned the  program in raps or elsewhere, staff always pulled out their list of former students that cedu "helped" as a means to justify the program. And if you continued to question cedu, or named the names of people in your peer group who split and disappeared, the staff and older students all gathered to the other side of the room and spewed holy hell upon you.  It was never a free discussion or exchange of ideas, cedu's position has always been this: "These people were helped by cedu and love the program, if you don't agree with us it's because your dishonest, stupid, or totally fucked in the head!"

So the way I see it, if the ottawas use cedu tactics against us to gloss over, dismiss, and justify the abuses we suffered, then why can't we use those same tactics to refute their arguements?  Let fire fight fire I say.

And yes I will continue to speculate on the Ottawas personal lives, as well as her son's reasons for not posting here.  Ottawa5 consistantly speculates on our personal stories of abuse at cedu, and dismisses us as being "Dilusional Hate Cedu Fanatics!"  Why shouldn't we give her a taste of her own medicine?  

Ottawa 5 your son is a coward, and I truly suspect that in reality he is not in complete agreement with what you've been saying about cedu. He's just afraid to tell you.  If I'm wrong ottawa5, then prove it.  BRING YOUR SON ONTO THIS SITE!

.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-25 12:33 ]