How About This Theory

[Antigen]

On 2004-08-22 10:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

I am not saying that Anti nessacarly supports lazy parenting. I am saying that it sounds like she dose not want to bother with takeing an active role in her child's (if she even has one) life.

You couldn't be more wrong! When Officer Friendly came to my door suggesting that I file (false) charges against my daughter, in order for them to "help" her, the easiest, laziest CYA move I could have made would have been to go along w/ that advice. She would have landed up in Broward County's boot camp program and I would have been lauded as a good and TOUGHloving mother for pawning her off on them.

Instead, we just continued to take the fallout from some of her activities and to be there for her, even after her psycho boyfriend had driven a wedge between her and everyone else she knew. He couldn't run us off, though, even w/ death threats, even w/ false complaints to authorities and other types of harassment.

I only know of one significant difference between what Psycho Boy was doing to her and what the altruistic officers who run Broward County Juvenile Intervention Services do to kids. W/ Psycho Boy, at any moment, as soon as she decided she wanted to get off the ride, she could just walk away, come home, go stay w/ one of her old friends (far enough away to not be afraid of the asshole and his friends, family and such) or go visit a cousin. Instead of trying to force her into doing what we thought was best, we just kept reminding her that she had a lot of options if she wanted to take them and that we'd do all we could to help her get what she wanted.

The hardest part of the whole situation was learning not to mention the obvious with regard to the idiot boyfriend. As long as we said it, she'd defend him to bizarre extremes. When we quit talking about him, she figured it out for herself, got on a bus, came home, took a couple of jobs and started saving for a car and school.

The sadist cannot stand the separation of the public and the private; nor can he grant to others the mystery of their personality, the validity of their inner self...in order for him to feel his maximum power, he wants the world to be peopled with concrete manipulatable objects...
-- ERNEST BECKER, The Structure of Evil, 1968.

[Ottawa2]

Your still just flipping a coin with your kids. I in no way would want you to file false reports against your daughter, that definetly is not what my mother or I are supporting. But, what if those charges were true?
To me it seem like your would rather just flip a coin and say "well its heads so I guess she'll trun out alright" Instead of trying to help your child improve there odds.
For every success story on this site about drug user that turned them selfs around there are a dozen other storys out there that are not so happy. The odds are agaist them.
I guess I just have a problem with your theroy that a 15 year old can be prepared for the real world. Again no matter how many happy storys are on this site there are twice as many that are not so happy.
According to you a 2 year old that throws a tatrum should get whatever they want. Do you truely belive that?
Hope to hear from you soon! :wave:

[Son Of Serbia]

_________________________________________________

On 2004-08-22 10:37:00, Anonymous wrote:


"I am not saying that Anti nessacarly supports lazy parenting. I am saying that it sounds like she dose not want to bother with takeing an active role in her child's (if she even has one) life."
_________________________________________________



Neither did Ottawa 5,she just shipped her son off to some cult, where she payed total strangers to mind-fuck him. This gave Ottawa 5 plenty of extra time to focus on her career and
return to college.  She must have found these new pursuits more worthwhile than actually hanging in there and being a real mother to her son when he obviously needed her the most.   Ottawa 2, what your mom did to your brother is the epitamy of LAZY PARENTING.  


.[ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-23 06:53 ][ This Message was edited by: SON OF SERBIA on 2004-08-23 06:54 ]

[blownawaytheidahoway]

[ This Message was edited by: blownawaytheidahoway on 2004-08-23 12:30 ]

[ehm]

On 2004-08-22 13:48:00, Ottawa2 wrote:

"Your still just flipping a coin with your kids. I in no way would want you to file false reports against your daughter, that definetly is not what my mother or I are supporting. But, what if those charges were true?

To me it seem like your would rather just flip a coin and say "well its heads so I guess she'll trun out alright" Instead of trying to help your child improve there odds.

For every success story on this site about drug user that turned them selfs around there are a dozen other storys out there that are not so happy. The odds are agaist them.

I guess I just have a problem with your theroy that a 15 year old can be prepared for the real world. Again no matter how many happy storys are on this site there are twice as many that are not so happy.

According to you a 2 year old that throws a tatrum should get whatever they want. Do you truely belive that?

Hope to hear from you soon! :wave: "

And a woman who held a babe against her bosom said, "Speak to us of Children."

And he said:

Your children are not your children.

They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.

They come through you but not from you,

And though they are with you, yet they belong not to you.

You may give them your love but not your thoughts.

For they have their own thoughts.

You may house their bodies but not their souls,

For their souls dwell in the house of tomorrow, which you cannot visit, not even in your dreams.

You may strive to be like them, but seek not to make them like you.

For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.

You are the bows from which your children as living arrows are sent forth.

The archer sees the mark upon the path of the infinite, and He bends you with His might that His arrows may go swift and far.

Let your bending in the archer's hand be for gladness;

For even as he loves the arrow that flies, so He loves also the bow that is stable.

 -- Kahlil Gibran

 

A democracy is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to have for dinner.

A republic is where the sheep get to pick which wolves vote on what to have for dinner.

But in a constitutional republic, voting on dinner is strictly
forbidden.

--A Patriot

[Ottawa2]

To SOS: My mother did not go back to college until well after my brother returned from CEDU.

Before he got sent there she tried many, many different things.  Grounding him, trusting him, drug rehab, living with other relatives, and yes just being there for him but guess what nothing worked.

Anti sat their while her daughter endured an abusive relationship and did not do so much as lift a finger to stop it. Because she wanted her daughter to ?figure things out herself?

Well guess what people? Kids don?t know what they are doing that?s when parents have to step in not just sit there so the kid COULD be killed, OD, raped ECT. But hey according to anti it?s ok because they will ?figure things out themselves?

To Anti: I am still waiting for an answer to my questions that I have asked twice now.
Do you really think that a two year old playing with a dangerous object should be aloud to ?figure things out? for them selves? Cuz if a 15 year old is ready for the really world (that is what you think right?) then why not a 2 year old? And do you really think it is safe to raise your children by just flipping a coin?

Lezli: Trust me my mother and I both know that you do not own your child like you own a lamp, but until they are 18 according to the law you are responsible for them. However I really do not see how any of the things that you quoted had anything to do with my post if you could clarify that would be much appreciated. And please use your own word.

 (BTW: none of my mothers children have been in an abusive relationship, none are on drugs, none are alcoholics, none have any mental or emotional problems and all of them are in school.)

[shanlea]

O2: Things get a little rough on this board, and we should all hold off on judging others who we don't know personally. Parenting is a tough, tough job. The truth is that there are a confluence of factors that contribute to a child's optimal growth into adulthood. Sometimes, great parents have an especially challenging child. This is something your family understands.

I'm sure it is difficult to read some of the more ignorant comments directed towrd your Mom. However, it is not fair to judge Antigen's parenting style on the basis that she had challenging moments with her daughter.  Most of the best parents I know face many fears or challenges with their children. Also, it is extremely difficult to force your older children out of relationships and often better to use subtler or more creative tactics in an effort to encourage in hopes their self worth kicks in.  Most kids I know went through at least one very bad relationship on the road to growing up, and many of them would not want to be judged for their worst moments in their journey in life.

In any event, I don't think Antigen advocates a "do nothing" approach to parenting. A lot of parenting is creative effort and knowing when to draw the line and when to let your kid fall on his ass and learn from it.

Before I was a mother, I was more judgmental about other mothers.  With two children of my own, whom I love very much, I've learned to be humble and supportive of other parents.  The truth is that there is no exact science to parenting; it's an art born out of love and courage and a bottomless well of humor.

[ehm]

You know what? No. I have no energy to waste on arguing forced treatment with you. No one responds to being forced to do something in a positive way. In time, you'll figure that one out on your own, (hopefully) or learn the hard way. Personally, I'll stick with Kahil's words, thank you very much.

On 2004-08-16 19:02:00, ottawa5 wrote:

It is as if he has had the experience, he keeps what is meaningful with his friends and with us, and the rest he leaves, without much regret.

Oh, just wait.

It is more complicated for me, because my focus is that I want to open a school that improves on what was good about CEDU. As you might imagine, I have to look into the nuances and the details, I realize that a lot of the people at this site do not see anything good at all in the whole CEDU experience, and I understand that.

Or Synanon, Seed, Straight, Kids, SAFE, Pathways, etc?  

Responsible does not mean confinement.  I don?t, won?t, and never will agree with what you did to your son.

Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.

--Mark Twain

[Ottawa2]

well Lezli if your confertable not speaking for yourself and just quoteing people I guess thats ok. But you know what you didnt even answer my question. I really wish you had so I could understand your respons more clearly. Did I ever ask you to agree with me? no, the only reason my mother and I are on this site is because we thought there would be some intellingent resinable debet.
And its ok that you do not agree wioth me because my brother (not my son, im his sister pay attention!) is haveing a great live after being at CEDU a number of years ago. Oh, did you know that the book you quoted was on the aloud reading list at RMA? Thought you might be interested with that little fact.
Shanlea, thank you so much for being one of the few people here that can responed with, intelligent resonalbe respones. I did not mean to judge Anti, I was just trying to make a point, if we were to judge like my mother has its what you might call a double edged sword, or on this site a double standard. And yes it is had to read some of ignorent post thats the main reason that I got irrated . I really did not mean to sorry! :wave:
Anyway Im still waiting for Anti to responed to my question (please hurry)
PS. I ask my brother the other night to come and post but he said and I quote "I don't want to get addicted to some stupied arguments" Guess its too late for me.

[CEDU IS A CULT]

He'd rather let his sister and his mom fight his battles.  Yeah, Cedu turned him into a REAL GOOD MAN.  You know something your brother's a coward and Cedu made him into one.

Question:  You're in a foxhole.  Who do you want as your partner- John Wayne or the Pope?

[ehm]

On 2004-08-24 09:33:00, Ottawa2 wrote:

"well Lezli if your confertable not speaking for yourself and just quoteing people I guess thats ok. But you know what you didnt even answer my question. I really wish you had so I could understand your respons more clearly. Did I ever ask you to agree with me? no, the only reason my mother and I are on this site is because we thought there would be some intellingent resinable debet.

And its ok that you do not agree wioth me because my brother (not my son, im his sister pay attention!) is haveing a great live after being at CEDU a number of years ago. Oh, did you know that the book you quoted was on the aloud reading list at RMA? Thought you might be interested with that little fact.

Shanlea, thank you so much for being one of the few people here that can responed with, intelligent resonalbe respones. I did not mean to judge Anti, I was just trying to make a point, if we were to judge like my mother has its what you might call a double edged sword, or on this site a double standard. And yes it is had to read some of ignorent post thats the main reason that I got irrated . I really did not mean to sorry! :wave:

Anyway Im still waiting for Anti to responed to my question (please hurry)

PS. I ask my brother the other night to come and post but he said and I quote "I don't want to get addicted to some stupied arguments" Guess its too late for me."

I do, why don't you? It was O5 I quoted, and O5 I was speaking to. Not you kid. Also, I find no admiration in you playing parent and speaking for your mother. That's not a healthy role for you to assume. Just an observation.  

The "aloud list?" Well, it's to bad it's meaning was lost in translation.

We must all hang together, or assuredly we shall all hang separately.
-- Ben Franklin At the signing of the Declaration of Independence, July 4, 1776.

[Son Of Serbia]

(Lezli)  Yeah, Ottawa5's son knows about this site, we've been calling him out for almost 2 months now.

(O2) Bryan is right Ottawa2, your brother is a big coward who needs his mom and sister to fight his battles for him. You and your mother so valiantly defend your brother's Cedu Experience, while in reality, you don't know shit about it.  I used to find this offensive, but now it's funny.  Anyways back to Mr. Self-Surveilance, why is he so afraid to post here?  Is he really that afraid of us?  Or is he more afraid that he might disagree with and offend your mother? I'm not so sure anymore that your brother agrees with everything you and your mother are saying.
I think that RMA whipped that boy so bad that he was asking your mom for permission to wipe his ass when he got out.  He's afraid I think, of your mom much more so than us.

O2 why do you come here anyways?  I thought 16 year girls had their own lives with boyfriends, dates, shopping with their girlfriends at the mall,  part-time summer jobs, cheerleader try outs, concerts, parties, etc...... Is Ottawa 5 so controlling that she won't permit you your own life, or are you just that big of a loser that you have nothing better to do than come here and help your mom defend some cult that you know absolutely nothing about?  Which is it?

[Deborah]

O2,
It is wise for a parent to stay out of the way as much as possible whether their child is 2 or 15.
That doesn't mean that you don't scoop your two year old up if they are running into the street or about to hurl themselves off a cliff. But if that child is about to take a tumble that is not life threatening, you don't panic and rescue them. That is how humans learn. There is far too much 'rescuing' going on in our culture which greatly sabotages and/or arrests children's development-ability to learn from their experiences and mistakes. I could police my toddlers every move or I could allow him to learn first hand, and I no longer have to be the police. If he is about to touch the hot door of the oven, which might hurt but won't require medical attention, I would allow it. He won't touch it again. Well, some are persistent and it might take more than once, but you get the idea. But, he has learned something that I couldn't teach him by saying no and continually moving him away. Same with the tumbles. I could prevent my child from climbing and rob him of valuable lessons about the physical limitations of his body.

I know a 2.5 yr old whose parents are extemely over-protective. When dad is on duty he follows right behind him (literally) so he can 'prevent' any accidents. Ironically the dad is a muscle bound athlete.  When he can break free, which he is constatnly tryng to do, he invaribly gets hurt. Whether it is running away from them and therefore not paying attention or just because he knows nothing about his abilities and limitations. He would assuredly fall off the cliff because no and stop are signals for him to run like hell. His parents use the accidents as futher 'evidence' that their excessive protection is absolutely necessary. They can not see that they are interfering with his development. This child, at the tender age of 2.5 already resents his parents. He is 'defiant', sneeky, passively agressive... and I can see that he will very likely be a future candidate for drugs or incarceration.

The number one killer of teens is auto accidents. Pay attention to what I'm about to say. Drug deaths DON'T EVEN MAKE THE TOP 20. The hysteria around this 'risky' behavior is not justified. Why not incarcerate teens to prevent them from driving? -Actually, I think some parents do!! It would make more sense- if you are going to use facts and statistics to justify the warehouse industry.
http://fornits.com/wwf/viewtopic.php?to ... t=20#56774

Fact: $6000 a month buys a whole lot of resource in any community. There were options for your brother.

These are good articles about how America's fear of teens and policies actually create problems and which present a different perspective:
http://home.earthlink.net/~mmales/yt-euro.htm
http://www.youthtoday.org/youthtoday/males.html

[ottawa5]

To Serbia and current others on this thread--

Now this is disheartening. I thought that bradensmith, MAD and and some other new posters had gotten this site to a little higher, at least a little happier, level of discourse a couple of weeks ago.

First I want to say that I've really enjoyed this site. I've gotten a lot of good ideas and contacts from my time here earlier in the summer, more than enough good stuff to weigh-out various nasty comments--and even these have sometimes been informative. It's just that at the moment I have very little time to check in, and when I do,I see such a disappointing back-sliding on some of the threads.

Just for your information (I know, I know, like you'll believe it), my son simply has no interest whatsoever in this site.

I know that's hard for some of you to believe because this site plays a big part in your lives, but there it is: it's just irrelevant to him.  I've also mentioned Fornit's  to other CEDU grads who think the school did them good, and as far as I know, though I'm not sure of this, they haven't bothered to check in here either.  

I understand that many of you are still bound by very negative feelings to your school experiences, perhaps you believe that posting here is going to change parents' minds about the schools (though in which direction, you might want to consider!)and so forth.

But if you are going to be in touch with the full reality of the experience of CEDU grads, as a group, you are going to have to consider the fact that for a lot of people, being in a CEDU school was a learning experience, and they have taken what they learned and gone on. It's not that they are mind-controlled or in a cult or anything, they just have other things to do now.

It will their performance in these new, future-oriented parts of their lives, not their personal decisions about whether or not to argue with angry ex-students and parents on a web-site, that will define whether they are fully-functioning or courageous or anything else.

Now my daughter is a very giving, generous person, the type of person who likes to help people get a full picture of what is happening on a situation like this one, where she hears some people making such extraordinary claims and yet she knows of many people who have experienced something very different.

She is on summer vacation and she likes the computer and if she has time, well, why not?  I've told her that my advice is to go for it, if she wants to, and take what is good and leave the rest. That's what I try to do.

I think the fundamental defining difference in this debate has been clarified for me by Ginger recently and still more recently by Deborah, and it involves the role that parents should play in their minor children's lives and decision-making.


As I said to Ginger earlier, the proof of who is right will be decided, not by words, but by how children who have been raised in the differing ways that we've discussed turn out and how they contribute to the world and the future. From what I see, I'm happy with our choices.

I'll see you later.

[blownawaytheidahoway]

Ok. I read the whole string. I need my folks to read it. They are finally seeing that I am held back and there is only one reason why. I oscilate between feelings of greatness because I do know things that poeple who were not STUDENTS don't know. They can't. But the trade off, the very worse part is that I can't hear anything except negativity from people. Even if they don't mean it. It's one thing (one of many) that I have a very hard time with. Even some compliments from people are mistranslated in my head and instead of hearing the voice and words, my thinking only misinterprets automatically and choses the most insulting way possible.
      For all the anon people that are going to tell me to move on, grow up, grow whatever equiptment your perverted minds can imagine in order to become whole again (I can't be absolutely sure what I was since I was only 14) I will just say now that I will be ignoring all comments like that. I know what I need.
You don't know what I learned at RMA. I ran away for months at a time. And there was no restraints and drugs were way way way far from the type of program it was. I was eating snake, mice and dogs down in the desert when I ran away (8/24.88 actually)and was in SEWS. I know why things ain't right in my head and it ain't cause I smoke weed to keep me from going postal with an AR-12 and buying a one way ticket for Spokane like my folks did for me. My hurt comes from RMA. Plain and simple. Messages that I got there that I was unwanted to my parents and that I did need fixing (they break their own ideals, the words are not impeccably chosen, and they are not people of their word). The ratting and faking. I don't trust anyone and I don't walk in the middle of the hallway, I don't sit where I can't see everyone. I thought it was just idiosyncratic, y'know something quirky but it's full blown terror and that don't forget easy. RMA is still making me coo-coo for cocoa puffs!