How About This Theory

[Hamiltonf]

Shanlea, Ginger, you have to have my admiration for your continued, well thought out and patient counters to Ottawa's rather shallow perceptions.  She has consistently and in my view deliberately failed to address the many valid points you raise. my theory is that she's in denial about her own motivations for doing what she has done, or is simply racked with guilt over the horror.
I don't know whether you recall the song from the Beatles' Sgt Pepper Album, "she's leaving home".  Basically, it tells the story of a girl leaving home   where it is too stifling for her.  The parent says, "how could she do this to ME?". I think what they are saying in this song that a child needs unconditional love.  
When parents try to mould their kids into what the parent wants, and the child goes in another direction, it is really hard for parent to refrain from thinking, "How could he do that to me?" Consequently, this is transferred in the parent's mind into 1.  blaming the child, and 2. Forcing the child into a different way of thinking -- along the lines of "I'll show HIM for putting me through this HELL"  In other words, revenge!  
From what I've seen of the raps, that is precisely what is going to make the parent feel better.

Tell me I'm wrong.

[Ottawa2]

Your wrong about my mother. All of her children are very diffrent and want diffrent things out of life and she has supported all of us for what we want to do.
The differnce with my brother, is that her really could have been in that car. (read one of her last post for the full story)And yes we did try other this, therapy, relitive (sp?) ect. But none of them worked.
P.S.:Just a thought maybe my mom has to much going on in her life to sit here and answer every posters question in full. Just an thought thats all! :wave:

[ottawa5]

My old coorespondent--Well, I've been accused of many things in my life, but never of having "shallow perceptions", then agian you have a lot of views on things that are off the beaten track as far as I can see.

Nice of you to cheer-lead for Ginger and Shanlea also, although from my "shallow perspective" at least,they really don't need it, they are quite capable people of getting their points across.  I am always ready to respond when they address a query my way.

And I must also thank my little daughter (who is still asleep after a concert last night) for posting on my behalf (Ottawa2, that is).  I guess when you get  emotional support from your own loved ones in the real world, smart-aleck slams from usernames on a computer screen are pretty easy to put in perspective.

I will respond later to Ginger's question about specific parts of the CEDU program that we think should be retained, I have mentioned some of them before but I guess you didn't notice them, Hamilton.  Oh well, big website, easy to miss things, right now I'm off, but it is always ennervating to hear from you.

[Antigen]

On 2004-08-18 21:44:00, ottawa5 wrote:

We could agree, I think, that you should try everything else, therapy, living with other relatives, in-depth attempts at reconciliation, before sending a child, even a defiant, self and other-endangering child away.

You left out one thing. Ever consider that you might be wrong? You may be overreacting and that the kid might have a pretty good handle on things, even though he scares hell out of you?

But what about when the kid say "No, you can't make me" or a string of four letter words and out the door with his druggie, delinquent friends?

Do you say "Oh well, it is out of my hands".

In many cases, yes. When a kid reaches the level of independence where they will no longer accept your authority, it is out of your hands.

Sending them away to people who will use force to control them doesn't teach them a thing about the choices they're making. It only teaches them that might makes right, and that only lasts as long as you can maintain that coercive authority over them. And, as many posters to these forums are happy to explain to you, it can do a whole lot of damage in the process.

Now to your questions about what parts of the RMA program I see as crucial: this will have to weight for another day, it's too late and my morning is going to be brutally early...

Excuses, excuses! Come on. Simple question. What is it that a program like RMA does that you can't do yourself? If you take away the abuse, what's left?

It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.

--Antigen

[Antigen]

On 2004-08-18 21:27:00, ottawa5 wrote:

"That's sort of interesting, my last post and your previous (second last) post were both at 20:26. Hope it's a sign that we have common ground and we are just expressing it in different ways.

No, I think it's just a sign that we post posted within roughly 60 seconds of each other. Your mentioning it suggests to me that 1) you're given to superstitious belief and 2) you're spending way too much time scrutinizing this forum.

Then, some time later, after things were improving for my son, that druggie friend was out cruising around at 3 in the morning, still into the same crowd and behaviors, and he went across a highway median.  His car was destroyed and he was dead at the scene.

First, if you give proper respect and consideration to the fine people who've taken time to answer your questions, you'd realize that you had NO way of knowing how your son was doing because all of your communication with him was subject to his staying "in agreement". Second, how do you know that your son might not have influenced his friend to stay put, get a ride or do something entirely different with his evening? You don't. All you know is that your son lost a friend and, I'm guessing, wasn't even allowed to attend the funeral. Even if he might have learned a lesson from this tragedy, that didn't happen. Instead, he's to maintain that CEDU saved him from certain death.

And, btw, who uses the term "druggie"?

I agree with you that no one should be forced to deny his/her own truths.

Well, if you send your kid to strangers in the Troubled Parent industry, they are forced to accept a lot of "truths" that are not true. Ask anyone who's been there, including some of the former staff who post here.

If triangles had a God, He'd have three sides.
--Old Yiddish proverb

[Antigen]

Hey Hamilton! Good to hear from ya'  :wave:

Don't know if this band/song are big where you are, but I thought you might appreciate this. These are the lyrics of a song called Just Like You by a band called 3 Days Grace. It sort of sums up a bit of what we often talk about around here and it's encouraging that some young ppl are writing, singing and listening to this stuff.

I could be mean
I could be angry
You know I could be just like you

I could be fake
I could be stupid
You know I could be just like you

You thought you were sitting beside me
Your were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you

You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you

I could be cold
I could be ruthless
You know I could be just like you

I could be weak
I could be senseless
You know I could be just like you

You thought you were sitting beside me
Your were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you

You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you

On my own, cause I can?t take liven with you
I?m alone, so I won?t turn out like you
Want me to

You thought you were sitting beside me
Your were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you

You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you
You thought you were there to guide me
You were only in my way
You?re wrong if you think that I?ll be just like you

I could be mean
I could be angry
You know I could be just like you

By 1940 the literacy figure for all states stood at 96 percent for whites. Eighty percent for blacks. Notice for all the disadvantages blacks labored under, four of five were still literate. Six decades later, at the end of the 20th century, the National Adult Literacy Survey and the National Assessment of Educational Progress say 40 percent of blacks and 17 percent of whites can't read at all. Put another way, black illiteracy doubled, white illiteracy quadrupled, despite the fact that we spend three or four times as much real money on schooling as we did 60 years ago.
--Vin Suprynowicz

[ottawa5]

This is a response to the two posts you addressed to me today (speaking of having too much time to spend here...)

Actually, if you had read carefully, the post with the comment about posting at the same time was addressed to Shanlea, not you.  Either way, lighten up a bit, why don't you, it was a joking remark, not some reservoir of superstition. Very heavy-handed response for you to offer!

Here is the main thing though: what you addressed to me today explains the whole story vis a vis where you are coming from.  I think it goes way beyond CEDU or any particular school.

You really don't think that parents should have control over their minor children! That's the bottom line and the explanation for the basic difference between you and me.

I guess the proof of who is right will come out in the form of individual successes among a generation of kids who are raised either according to your approach or mine. I'm betting on mine, based on common sense and what I've seen up to now.

But your snippy comments ("who uses the term druggie?"), your astonishingly overbearing assumption that you could possibly know anything  about my communication with my son, anything at all about whether he was likely to be a good influence on anyone else in the days before he went to RMA---do these outlandish comments suggest a certain defensive uneasiness with your own position when any conflicting information enters your field of awareness?  

I hope so, but only time will tell.

Hope your advice doesn't lead to harm for too many people in the meantime.

Now, in answer to your original question, there are many things that I liked about the RMA experience:

I liked the removal from a home environment which had come to be filled with cues to reactivate certain behavior patterns (I wrote a paper on this, in fact, based on the Elaboration Likelyhood Model of Attitude Change). Again and again, I've said that it is better not to get to such a point--I'm talking about when you do in fact get there.

I liked most of the staff there. The parent coordinators were wonderful and my son had certain staff that were central to his turn-around. I think you have to hire staff very very carefully--the comments at this site suggest that this was not always done.

In our program, the peer relationships, especially the Big Brother relationship was instrumental in bringing about consideration of a new way of doing things.

My son and his friends loved the Propheets, and the Wilderness Experience, I know one girl who the school sent home after a year because they decided that she didn't really need that much structure (even though her family could easily have paid for the whole program).  I've heard her say that she wishes that she had stayed through the Wilderness Experience because so many of her peers found it to be an uplifting and wonderful experience.  

I think the rules about dress and the structure of the place (within reason)played a positive role in imposing some healthy limits--but there may be different and improved ways to design such a program.

And of course the Parent Seminars and Workshops gave me insights and growth that have changed our family for the better in many ways.  

I could mention other things, the beauty and isolation of the setting, the small class sizes, the participation in outside experiences such as sports and business events and so on, but I am talking to someone who is coming from a completely different value system, so I guess that sort of makes me feel like there isn't much point.

Your thinking is such that you cannot even consider that these schools may do good, you're a black and white thinker, seeing all good or all bad and I don't know if this is your nature or if something has happened that made you like this.

Even though we had a great experience, I am able to weigh what I've heard, to consider what might go wrong in other situation, to try to improve where situations of risk exist.  But I cannot see how it is possible to talk in any kind of balanced way on a complex subject with someone who thinks like you do.  

Face it: it would devastate your world if you had to admit that a program like RMA can lead to happy, grateful, forward-looking, fully-functioning graduates who don't fit the predictions that your rigid world-view would like to dictate for them.[ This Message was edited by: ottawa5 on 2004-08-19 18:12 ]

[Antigen]

On 2004-08-19 18:11:00, ottawa5 wrote:

You really don't think that parents should have control over their minor children! That's the bottom line and the explanation for the basic difference between you and me.

No. I think that parents have much more important and more subtle influence over their children (and children over their parents) through unconditional love and mutual respect than through brute force. You'll come to appreciate that (or not) as your kids get older and have children of their own.

Everything in moderation, including moderation.
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Anonymous]

I think it's all bullshit. We're all just born to die and life means nothing. The more people in the world, the more miserable that life will be. Spare the world another mouth to feed and adopt instead.

-A population activist

[Anonymous]

Hey there Anti!
What?s up?
Just a few things before I go to bed. You said that you believe in unconditional love is the way to raise a child and I agree with you (as dose my mother) 100%. However what you do not understand is that, that?s why we sent my brother to CEDU. We loved him to much to let him throw his life away.

And, you question my mother about not knowing if my brother would have had a positive influence with his friends. I have only on comment for that: The way you want to raise children is no better then flipping a coin and hoping that it turns out right.

The thing you do not seem to grasp is that parent who truly love there children will do anything to help them in life; you don?t seem to believe in this. You call the parents lazy for "shipping your kids off...?

What about you? Your theory is to just let kids be. How is that not lazy parenting? Yup just let the kids do whatever he wants, don't get involved or anything like that it might interrupt your day! (BTW that part was sarcastic)

Hope to hear from you soon!
 :wave:

[Ottawa2]

Sorry that was me just for got to sign in

[Hamiltonf]

On 2004-08-19 17:11:00, Antigen wrote:

"Hey Hamilton! Good to hear from ya'  :wave:



Don't know if this band/song are big where you are, but I thought you might appreciate this. These are the lyrics of a song called Just Like You by a band called 3 Days Grace. It sort of sums up a bit of what we often talk about around here and it's encouraging that some young ppl are writing, singing and listening to this stuff.

"

I continue to find this site thought-provoking and inspiring.  Of course.
I think I'll pass that song along to my daughter and get her reaction.  
I wonder how Ottawa5 would have reacted to my mya daughter's growing pains -- and my son.
When my daughter was 15 and rebelling, it was her mother's unconditional love and patience that stood in the way of any draconian coercive treatment that I might have advocated.  There were suicide attempts, she lost a friend to suicide.  But she pulled through.  And she brought home friends with problems.  One I learned was a heroin user.  
And my son, always the thinker, came home expressing concern about other kids popping pills indiscriminately at parties.  So what did he do?  -- he read up on the various drugs himself, experimented himself and started a chapter of Rave-Safe (Derived from Dance-Safe of San-Fransisco)
The outcome of all this is that my daughter followed up her interest in recreational drugs, which she continues to use wisely, obtained a B.Sc. in Psychology, has moved to Vancouver (where she has met Barry, by the way, and hopes to do graduate work in his area)  and is now working full time with troubled youth in a group home.  My son, on the other hand was a software engineer for a while, taught English in China and has returned to University majoring in Economics.  
I hate to think how they would have turned out had Ottawa 5 methods been used         :roll:

[shanlea]

O2:

You should not assume that Ginger advocates lazy parenting just because she does not advocate the programs/schools listed on this board.

I also disagree with the approach taken by CEDU to "treat" the child, but I would never assume your mother doesn't love your brother because he was sent there; I wouldn't even assume she was a lazy parent.

[Anonymous]

Shanlea,
I am not saying that Anti nessacarly supports lazy parenting. I am saying that it sounds like she dose not want to bother with takeing an active role in her child's (if she even has one) life. She said that if a 15 year old would not stay home when told that they where ready for the real world. But, if that is the case then what about a 2 year old that throws a tantrum when you won't let them play with someing dangurous? According to Anti's theroy they would be ready to take on that responseablitly! I also want to thank you for been more civiled while me and my mother, then some of the people on this site. We really do appreciate it since all we want is civil conversation.

Also, to Hamilton are you saying that you are proud that both of your children are druggies???
Im not sure that can be labeled a success story.
And I can tell you what would have happened if my mother had raised your children they would have been just a successful but with out the drug use.

[Ottawa2]

Ok Im haveing seirous problems with this logging in thing!^_^* :wave: