My 16 year old daughter's first love

[exsafecounselor]

She said "Why would you want to be so manipulative and controlling in your childs life.

And of course that poor boy is thinking only of her he is being tortured in a wilderness program, and you are about to sabotage his progress to meet your own adgenda.

I am sad, for your children for that boy it is a shame."

So I guess I left a few words out that did not seem ridiculous.  I want to know where she and anyone else gets the idea that setting boundaries and enforcing them on your child is controlling and manipualtive.  It is a fact of adolescent development, that teens need structure and discipline.  They are emotional tornados developing into adults.  Providing this structure actually relieves stress, in the fact that the teen now has fewer choices to agonize over.  Kaydeejaded just needs to read a book about adolescent development.


To use a program analogy-remember when you were an oldcomer, the newcomers were driving you nuts and you had all these responsibilities to get done.  Do you remember the sense of relief you had when your responsibilities were taken away and you had fewer things to worry about.   Its the same principle.  




[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:41 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-29 09:38:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"She said "Why would you want to be so manipulative and controlling in your childs life.



And of course that poor boy is thinking only of her he is being tortured in a wilderness program, and you are about to sabotage his progress to meet your own adgenda.



I am sad, for your children for that boy it is a shame."



So I guess I left a few words out that did not seem ridiculous.  I want to know where she and anyone else gets the idea that setting boundaries and enforcing them on your child is controlling and manipualtive.  It is a fact of adolescent development, that teens need structure and discipline.  They are emotional tornados developing into adults.  Providing this structure actually relieves stress, in the fact that the teen now has fewer choices to agonize over.  Kaydeejaded just needs to read a book about adolescent development.





To use a program analogy-remember when you were an oldcomer, the newcomers were driving you nuts and you had all these responsibilities to get done.  Do you remember the sense of relief you had when your responsibilities were taken away and you had fewer things to worry about.   Its the same principle.  







[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:41 ]"

By your logic we'd all be happiest and most unstressed on massah's plantation with no choices to worry about.  Jes tote dat barge, an lif dat bale.

You moron. :flame:

[Anonymous]

On 2004-01-29 09:38:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"She said "Why would you want to be so manipulative and controlling in your childs life.



And of course that poor boy is thinking only of her he is being tortured in a wilderness program, and you are about to sabotage his progress to meet your own adgenda.



I am sad, for your children for that boy it is a shame."



So I guess I left a few words out that did not seem ridiculous.  I want to know where she and anyone else gets the idea that setting boundaries and enforcing them on your child is controlling and manipualtive.  It is a fact of adolescent development, that teens need structure and discipline.  They are emotional tornados developing into adults.  Providing this structure actually relieves stress, in the fact that the teen now has fewer choices to agonize over.  Kaydeejaded just needs to read a book about adolescent development.





To use a program analogy-remember when you were an oldcomer, the newcomers were driving you nuts and you had all these responsibilities to get done.  Do you remember the sense of relief you had when your responsibilities were taken away and you had fewer things to worry about.   Its the same principle.  







[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:41 ]"

Oh, and, by the way, you don't impress me as having a meaningful understanding of which limits are normal and healthy and which limits are not.

If you are typical of the quality of "counselors" messing around in the kids' heads, I can see why so many kids ended up psychological/psychiatric casualties of the program.

Go back to school, with an open mind, and get a PhD in clinical psychology.  Or go to med school, graduate, and specialize in psychiatry.  Then complete the post-graduation training to get your license to practice.

If you learn with an open mind, you'll do a lot less harm that you will kicking around in the world thinking you're qualified to be somebody's shrink when you're not.

Unqualified people digging around in other people's heads, especially the heads of *unconsenting* other people, do far more harm than good.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-01-29 09:38:00, exsafecounselor wrote:




So I guess I left a few words out that did not seem ridiculous.  I want to know where she and anyone else gets the idea that setting boundaries and enforcing them on your child is controlling and manipualtive.  It is a fact of adolescent development, that teens need structure and discipline.  They are emotional tornados developing into adults.  Providing this structure actually relieves stress, in the fact that the teen now has fewer choices to agonize over.  Kaydeejaded just needs to read a book about adolescent development.





To use a program analogy-remember when you were an oldcomer, the newcomers were driving you nuts and you had all these responsibilities to get done.  Do you remember the sense of relief you had when your responsibilities were taken away and you had fewer things to worry about.   Its the same principle.  







[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:41 ]"

I agree that kids need structure and discipline.  Of COURSE they do, I don't think ANYONE is disagreeing with that, but your definition of those words and mine are vastly different.  The analogy of the newc/oldcomer holds no water with me...those are COMPLETELY different circumstances and you know it.

There are ways to discipline without controlling the person.  Yes, I have a degree of control over my kids actions, but I DO NOT try and control the person they are.....these programs do...they try and mold them into good little citizens that they don't have to worry about anymore and they try and treat them all in the same manner.  I don't even treat my kids in the same manner...they're different people, different things work for each one of them.  You set rules, you set limits, you set consequences (the best ones I've found are the natural ones they get from their own mistakes) and if the rules and limits are not followed, the consequences kick in.  If that doesn't work, you move to the next consequence in line and so on.  If you have a teen that is not following REASONABLE rules......and that's a tough one, REASONABLE....or if there is danger to another household member, then obviously something needs to be done, BUT.......if there is good, open, honest communication and the rules/limits/consequences are set up and FOLLOWED FROM THE START....it usually works.  IF it truly gets to the point where a teen needs to be removed from the house, it should NOT be to some warehouse/brainwash factory/"alternative" school etc.  People get through this kind of stuff EVERY DAY without having to have some group of strangers take over parenting responsibilities for them.

All I ask is equal freedom.  When it is denied, as it always is, I take it anyhow.
--H.L. Mencken

[Verity]

Ok, I registered so if anyone wants to PM me, here I am, the Mom who started this thread. Someone said this....

"People that need saving aren't good romantic partners."

I can't agree with that statement. Bad things happen to good people. Maybe I spent too much of my own life helping the walking wounded, and my daughter has learnt this behavior from me, but KINDNESS is not a bad quality in a person. If you believe that "what goes around comes around", then you help people, not because you want a romantic relationship with them, but if it happens that you fall in love with them along the way, what's wrong with that? Sh*t happens.

Someone also said: "And *why* is she looking for a partner she needs to save/mother/rescue?"

This boy was not in need of rescue when she met him, at least if he was, it was very well disguised. Not only is he the best looking guy in school who would have no trouble getting himself onto the front cover of GQ, (which to a teenage girl is quite important), but also, he is extremely bright (overlooking his interest in substance abuse), and he had access to the best of everything (and what teenager doesn't think they own everything of their parents). Too good to be true? Yep, that's what she found out.....

Someone also said: "How comfortable is she with her own attractiveness and her own self-worth?"

She's stunningly attractive, or she would not have attracted Mr GQ. Does she know it? Of course not. Does anybody at 16? It was probably her MODESTY that was one of the qualities that attracted him to her. I do not disagree that she has problems with low self esteem, but if there's one good thing to come out of this for her, it is the realization that she is needed. That has done wonders for her self esteem.


Someone also said: "She should be shooting for a guy who's about the same level of attractiveness, intelligence, prospects as she has---and should have no trouble finding such dates."

Number 1, that's exactly what she had in him (at least on the face of it). I guess his prospects have dramatically reduced since he's going through BM, but up to the time he went in, his only problem was substance abuse. I'm not trying to diminish the significance of that, but I am beginning to understand that problem could have been fixed other ways, or at least by the time he left wilderness camp.

I remind her often that he is not the same person, that he will have changed since he went away and that they will probably find they have grown apart, but she doesn't believe me. And what impresses me about her determination to stand by him regardless, is THAT is exactly what TRUE love is all about. Why would I want to destroy that part of her called LOYALTY, even if it is misplaced? She will learn if it is misplaced in her own time. I cannot force her to give him up, I can only GUIDE her, by making her think twice about certain things.

The responses here are very helpful, not least because I'm not good at playing "devil's advocate", but there's no shortage of you here!

Number 2, since she's truly in love, even if she were to give up on him tomorrow, she would not even look at another guy for a long time. In my experience it takes 2 years to come to terms with the loss of a TRUE LOVE (rather than an obsession or a crush).

Do you think I would be putting my time into this if I thought this was a passing attraction? Nope. I am far too busy for that. What is REALLY starting to concern me (apart from my fears that he will not even survive the ordeal, but let's not go there) is that this boy will want nothing more to do with his parents after he gets out. That's what I am beginning to understand from you folks. That's a major concern. Where will he go? How will he survive?

And where this forum has been imeasureably helpful is convincing me that I must do nothing right now. This is not easy for me, because I like to think I can take achieve anything if I put enough time and energy into it, but that's impossible here. Not only do I not know enough, I'm not in control and never will be. So I will not try to fix this problem. As one of you said (sorry I don't know names), I will not just do something, I will stand here.....

Finally, let me ask another question; (I just love this stuff - I can send a question off into cyberspace and get an answer from experts instantly that would take me months to find out by myself)....

I have made notes on 3 books.

1. Smoke & Mirrors
2. Drug Warriors
3. Smart Love

If I were to buy one book, which should it be and why?

Thank you for your time.

[Anonymous]

One you didn't mention was "The Mastery of Love" by don Miguel Ruiz.  Awesome read.

[Anonymous]

You wrote about his good looks and his not being without anything.  It really is about what's underneath, his soul.  Most teens are about their looks, what other's think of them and being accepted by their peers.  If he's in a good RTC, BM, then he will find a place where those things don't matter, it will be about what fills his heart or his passion.  An effective RTC will give him so much more than getting clean.  He and his parents will have the opportunity to re-build their relationship, communication and trust.  It's hard work.  It is to take a look at yourself and it sounds like you're worried about him not liking his parents.  If he's not in a place that focuses on rebuilding the family, he may well take off and never come home.  It's not just him, it's the whole family that caused the challenges.  If his parents don't see that, it won't create the outcome they are hoping for.  

Healthy communication is the key.

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-01-29 20:09:00, Verity wrote:

"Ok, I registered so if anyone wants to PM me, here I am, the Mom who started this thread. Someone said this....



"People that need saving aren't good romantic partners."



I can't agree with that statement. Bad things happen to good people. Maybe I spent too much of my own life helping the walking wounded, and my daughter has learnt this behavior from me, but KINDNESS is not a bad quality in a person. If you believe that "what goes around comes around", then you help people, not because you want a romantic relationship with them, but if it happens that you fall in love with them along the way, what's wrong with that? Sh*t happens  

No, kindess is not a bad quality...but I think the point that was being made is that someone who feels that they cannot go on without the person they love is most certainly not healthy emotionally.  This will have a very definite effect on your daughter.  It is a way for him to control her or his situation.  Yes, he sounds like a fairly normal teen that got into some serious shit with drugs...no, I don't believe HE needs to be in a program BUT...I think Frod said (forgive me if I got the name wrong) that it's probably both that he wants to manipulate AND that where he is is a shithole that he's DESPERATE to get out of.

Someone also said: "And *why* is she looking for a partner she needs to save/mother/rescue?"

 Can't choose who we love, but it might not hurt to have a serious talk with her about how much of her life she'll be giving up should she choose to be in a relationship with ANYONE that needs rescuing (chronic rescuing...everyone needs a little rescuing every now and then in life).

Someone also said: "She should be shooting for a guy who's about the same level of attractiveness, intelligence, prospects as she has---and should have no trouble finding such dates."
 


I remind her often that he is not the same person, that he will have changed since he went away and that they will probably find they have grown apart, but she doesn't believe me. And what impresses me about her determination to stand by him regardless, is THAT is exactly what TRUE love is all about. Why would I want to destroy that part of her called LOYALTY, even if it is misplaced? She will learn if it is misplaced in her own time. I cannot force her to give him up, I can only GUIDE her, by making her think twice about certain things.

Seems like you've got that one figured out nicely!

 What is REALLY starting to concern me (apart from my fears that he will not even survive the ordeal, but let's not go there) is that this boy will want nothing more to do with his parents after he gets out. That's what I am beginning to understand from you folks. That's a major concern. Where will he go? How will he survive?

Ya know, I appreciate the fact that you're a kind person and you want to help, but you can't take on the responsibility for him, nor can your daughter.  His parents made their own beds, as far as the relationship with their son.  He will be out one day and he'll realize what was done to him.  

If he's as bright as you say and as popular as you say, he'll land on his feet with some friends until he can get his shit back together.  If he doesn't get his shit together then your daughter is going to have to make some hard decisions about her life.


I'm glad you posted here.  Hold on to the relationship you seem to have built with your daughter.  The majority of this sounds like pretty typical teenage behavior...on your daughter's part and the boyfriends.  Someone else here said that the majority of kids have used drugs/alcohol by high school and it doesn't mean that they ALL need treatment.  In my opinion, only a small minority do...most need the love, discipline and UNDERSTANDING of decent parents who spend time nurturing a relationship from the start...not parents who try to create one in a panic when the kid hits the tough spots in life, or worse, send them off so someone can "fix" what THEY "broke" in the first place.

I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use

--Galileo Galilei

[Anonymous]

Verity, your mastery of Parenting 101 is quite impressive.  Kudos to you for seeing your daughter and this young man as individuals who have a right to their own thoughts and feelings.  Hopefully, these 2 kids will emerge from this experience with the kind of *battle scars* that build character because let's face it, if life really was a bowl of cherries, there would be no need for how-to books and Dr. Phil would be looking for a new job!  

As a sidenote, my own experience has taught me that when it comes to learning lessons, there is much to be gained from making mistakes. Parents who teach their kids HOW to problem solve and are consistent in setting appropriate boundaries, instill their children with a healthy sense of "self" which is necessary in order to learn how to self-correct before "going off the deep end".  Communication is key and if anything, my advice would be to keep the communication lines open.  Let your daughter and this young man know they can count on you to listen and on an as-needed basis, help guide them through the rough spots.  Isn't that what we as adults, expect from other adults when we hit those road bumps on this journey called LIFE?


a

[Anonymous]

There's a difference between someone who can use some kindness and someone who's broken and needs rescuing.

Kindness to wounded birds is good.

Any romantic relationship should wait for *after* they get their crap together.

From what you've said about this boy, he doesn't sound like your typical wounded bird.

As for where he'll go when he gets out, you'd be surprised.  Our family knows someone who got stuck in one of these places for trivial reasons and we've already offered our guest room for her to get herself back together when she gets out---so her parents can't blackmail her into an over-18 program.

Being popular, he probably has several good friends whose parents don't agree with what happened to him and he may be able to move in with a friend while getting ready for the college entrance exams and applying for financial aid.

Even if his parents are rich and total putzes, he can get as much aid as he needs for school in loan form.  Loan obligations on graduation are better than his other alternatives.

[Therion]

On 2004-01-29 09:17:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"Kaydeejaded,



I have read many of your post in the past.  But this one takes the cake. Do you really believe the crap that comes out of your mouth?

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:17 ]

[ This Message was edited by: exsafecounselor on 2004-01-29 09:18 ]"

Have you ever spoken to her? Other than reading posts? No I dont think she'd bother speaking to you.
She is awesome, insightful, sweet, caring, and has love in her heart. Unlike yourself.
She is honest...unlike yourself.
She is a good parent...unlike yourself..
So until you know her shut your fucking pie hole.
You are a moron and noone wants you here.

I asked you, politely,to be nice to the Straight
survivors...Didnt I ?
And you are not doing this...why?
Once again Im going to tell you..this site is for survivors, which you are not.
You have no business here, and I will now be e mailing a request to have your ISP banned.
 
 


[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-02-01 14:39 ]

[ This Message was edited by: Therion on 2004-02-01 14:40 ]

[Therion]

Actually I dont think they'd ban you anyway..

Arguments make good reading....and entertains me..but just leave specific people alone...I know Kaydee and Morli and the rest of the Straight girls have had their lives ruined enough by the likes of you...And they are wonderful women..and are more genuine than anyone I know..

So kindly fuck off while you still have the legs to carry yourself....

[exsafecounselor]

If you look at the forum description, you will read this, "Resources for people considering specialty schools, boot camps or wilderness therapy for their kids. This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk."

"So kindly fuck off while you still have the legs to carry yourself...."  So why is it that you resort to threatening violence?  Are you not able to discuss things maturely?  Do you lack the emotional development to deal with your feelings appropriately, so you have no choice but to lash out?

[Therion]

I learned it from your program.....
Lashing out is equal to care and love....

That wasnt a threat of violence...I am not violent nor do I threaten..

If I was violent I wouldnt warn you Id just do it.
 
That was a movie quote...but whatever.

The rehab you staffed condoned violence.

You are trash and I suspect your own family hates you.  Wife making love to someone whilst you are at work?

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-02 07:21:00, exsafecounselor wrote:

"If you look at the forum description, you will read this, "Resources for people considering specialty schools, boot camps or wilderness therapy for their kids. This is an uncensored, unmoderated forum where all viewpoints are both welcome and fair game for debate. It's a snap-shot of the Teen Help industry. Some days it's inspiring and heart-warming. Other day's it's pretty damned ugly. Enter at your own risk."



"So kindly fuck off while you still have the legs to carry yourself...."  So why is it that you resort to threatening violence?  Are you not able to discuss things maturely?  Do you lack the emotional development to deal with your feelings appropriately, so you have no choice but to lash out?  "

Nice psychobabble.

Semantic content == null, but nice, fluffy psychobabble.

It's really a bit bizarre that a former employee of a place years and years ago feels the need to come piss in the pool of people who used to be the place's unconsenting customers.

There are a number of places I used to work, and if there was some board where people were trashing one of my former employers, I might disagree with them, but I mostly wouldn't care.  Dealing with the criticism, or not, would be the former employer's problem.

I certainly wouldn't care enough to waste my valuable time verbally slogging it out with them.

Why are you still so defensive about a job you had years ago?

I wonder that.  I really do.  And I could make some speculations about what kinds of things would motivate someone to still be so defensive about an old job they once had, years on down the road.

Hey, why not?  I think I will.

Long-term defensiveness often comes from guilt and pangs of conscience.

Isn't it time to make peace with your conscience so you can let go of some job you had years and years ago and get on with your life?

What was it the program survivors say they were told?  "Get honest"?  How ironic.