Wow, obama is going to win

[FemanonFatal2.0]

Well Kathy, Thank you for your response. I'm not going to waste my time on a quoting war because based on your answers I have a good idea what any future answers to my questions would be. But I will just interject on one point:

Femanonfatal you stated a lot and I apologize for not addressing everything.   For the most part I believe you have a very cynical view of what these schools do for these families and lack some understanding on why they do what they do.

What you probably arent aware of is that my cynical view comes from my first hand expereince with 2 WWASP programs, and futhermore completely validated by the HUNDREDS of people I have spoken to that attended ALL of the WWASP schools and many other Behavior Modification programs, both current and many that were closed due to evidence of abuse and cruelty. One of which you may have heard of was High Impact, My experience here will not only color my view of programs forever but it generally colors my life. Forgive me if I am not holding my breath for the same people who put me in dog cages to come up with another school that is wonderful and great, I tend to think evil people will always be evil people. The one thing you havent experienced is the day to day at a program, I have and I can tell you in all honesty that in too many ways to count they have it all wrong. something you mentioned is that no one will be stopped from calling their parents if it is an emergency, well I don't recall there ever being a telephone available except in the office of the case manager or of an administrator. But I do recall, when I demanded to speak to my mother that I was tackled and tortured in a torn out bathroom for a week straight. You must understand the psychological effects of the practice of complete control, these kids live in fear no matter what program. In some, its fear of being physically abused and others is of simply being singled out and loosing privledges or their progress home. Either way the children learn to avoid reaching out, speaking out or making any kind of stand for their human rights. and this happens in the seemingly "good" schools too I am more than sure of it. I think if you asked ANY survivor they would tell you the abuse exists, the problem is, some of them are lead to believe that this abuse was treatment and that they deserved it and would have been worse off with out it. I think that kind of thinking is only pure evidence of brainwashing and or Stockholm Syndrome. No child comes out of juvie (where they are actually allowed their fundemental rights) and is thankful that they were given the opportunity to go there. Dont you see how ridiculous the concept that these children would be on their own appreciative of being incarcerated? and yes it is being "locked up" because for any number of months or year these girls are not allowed to leave the compound and if they try to run away they get dragged back and abused. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BEING LOCKED UP IS!!!

[Anonymous]

Sure. But a doctor can get in trouble for such behavior. There is the possibility he could lose his license or even go to jail. There are no such consequences for educational consultants taking kickbacks (other than the possibility of civil suits). What you seem to be saying is "yes, there is no way a parent can be sure... but it's not so bad since it happens elsewhere too!". Am I right?

Well there is some consequence if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open.  But you are right anyone could set up shop and hang out a sign.

Fair enough. That's usually the answer i've heard in teh past, but the fact of the matter is: whatever possible upsides to the lack of communication, the downsides are that if there is abuse it will go unreported. During the 30 day period a "bad" program can discredit a student to the parents (telling them to expect manipulation) and threatening the kid to give only positive reports about the program(either implicitly or explicitly through punishment after the fact, or cutting off the call). The danger is what such restriction in communication allows.

That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above.  Do you believe all programs do this?  Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?

When you were talking to Marcy, you recommended a website she visit. That website is one of WWASP's referral websites. I know parents who have called up that very number and gotten kids accepted over the phone. It was not a soft sell at all. In fact, the parents were quite pressured to place. In addition, the "assessment" that was given was a series of questions such as:


ALL the questions are like this, many of which are reworded/duplicate, leading, or flat out rigged. There are 30 of them. Here is the key:

18+: HIGH RISK. Get help! A Residential Center, Treatment Program or Specialty School is STRONGLY RECOMMENDED. Call me now at 1-800-250-5446.

9-17:Borderline Risk. The problems may be resolved by tightening up the family rules and structure. However, a Residential Center Treatment Program or Specialty School may need to be considered.

Do you not investigate the options you recommend?

I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site.  I also recommend parents visit and read certain areas of fornits.  I ask them to read and review and not commit to any decision until they get back to me.  If they are still serious and believe that they are interested in a boarding school situation then we go from there.  WWASP are not target programs for me.
I investigate the schools before discussing them with anyone.

Would you recommend a school that has been under investigation by the authorities with substantiated accounts of abuse (by authorities as well as independent watchdogs), with lawsuits, and with congressional testimony against it?

Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response.  Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best.  Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.
Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)

[Anonymous]

Well Kathy, Thank you for your response. I'm not going to waste my time on a quoting war because based on your answers I have a good idea what any future answers to my questions would be. But I will just interject on one point:

Femanonfatal you stated a lot and I apologize for not addressing everything.   For the most part I believe you have a very cynical view of what these schools do for these families and lack some understanding on why they do what they do.

What you probably arent aware of is that my cynical view comes from my first hand expereince with 2 WWASP programs, and futhermore completely validated by the HUNDREDS of people I have spoken to that attended ALL of the WWASP schools and many other Behavior Modification programs, both current and many that were closed due to evidence of abuse and cruelty. One of which you may have heard of was High Impact, My experience here will not only color my view of programs forever but it generally colors my life. Forgive me if I am not holding my breath for the same people who put me in dog cages to come up with another school that is wonderful and great, I tend to think evil people will always be evil people. The one thing you havent experienced is the day to day at a program, I have and I can tell you in all honesty that in too many ways to count they have it all wrong. something you mentioned is that no one will be stopped from calling their parents if it is an emergency, well I don't recall there ever being a telephone available except in the office of the case manager or of an administrator. But I do recall, when I demanded to speak to my mother that I was tackled and tortured in a torn out bathroom for a week straight. You must understand the psychological effects of the practice of complete control, these kids live in fear no matter what program. In some, its fear of being physically abused and others is of simply being singled out and loosing privledges or their progress home. Either way the children learn to avoid reaching out, speaking out or making any kind of stand for their human rights. and this happens in the seemingly "good" schools too I am more than sure of it. I think if you asked ANY survivor they would tell you the abuse exists, the problem is, some of them are lead to believe that this abuse was treatment and that they deserved it and would have been worse off with out it. I think that kind of thinking is only pure evidence of brainwashing and or Stockholm Syndrome. No child comes out of juvie (where they are actually allowed their fundemental rights) and is thankful that they were given the opportunity to go there. Dont you see how ridiculous the concept that these children would be on their own appreciative of being incarcerated? and yes it is being "locked up" because for any number of months or year these girls are not allowed to leave the compound and if they try to run away they get dragged back and abused. THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT BEING LOCKED UP IS!!!

femanonFatal, I am sorry to hear what you have gone thru.  I can honestly tell you that I have never experienced that with anyone I have spoken to and maybe it is because I read extensively on schools, articles and fornits and have avoided places with a high risk associated with it.
I believe that abuse exists but I also believe that it is not systemic nor ingrained in the industry.
I believe regulation is on its way which will help weed out some of the wicked places which exist in all businesses, but unfortunately we are years away at best.  Hopefully we can avoid sending kids to these places byraising awareness via getting the word out and talking about everyones experiences.

[Anonymous]

Well there is some consequence if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open.  But you are right anyone could set up shop and hang out a sign.

The Ed-Conartist (Pun intended) faced no charges, criminal or civil from what I understand.  The fact that anyone can hang up a sign and declare themselves and "edcon" makes it a bit different than your MD analogy then, huh?

That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above.  Do you believe all programs do this?  Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?

I personally believe that most programs do this because it helps to indoctrinate the child.  If he's isolated and scared, he'll be more apt to comply quickly.

I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site.  I also recommend parents visit and read certain areas of fornits.  I ask them to read and review and not commit to any decision until they get back to me.  If they are still serious and believe that they are interested in a boarding school situation then we go from there.  WWASP are not target programs for me.
I investigate the schools before discussing them with anyone.

Would or have you referred to WWASPS schools?

Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response.  Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best.  Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.
Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)

I have no idea how to respond to that.  It's very sad.

[psy]

Well there is some consequence if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open.

Lol.  You have a point.  But she is just one of many.

That is why I am careful on where I place a child and insure there is no risk (or minimal risk) of a child ending up in a situation as you described above.

And yet you referred the parent to a WWASP website?  That doesn't make a lot of sense. You wrote: "If you enter any reputable site your identity is safe and there are built in procedures which keeps your identity private. The links I provided are secure sites for you to visit."  While I admit that is slightly out of context, you did imply their site was reputable.

Do you believe all programs do this?  Or is your belief that there is a risk of this happening?

No.  I do not believe that all programs do this.  But I do believe that many programs do, and with the amount of bad programs out there, it's not worth taking the risk (it's like russian roulette, but with worse odds). Many abusive programs that have been shut down were opened for a long time and had few allegations of abuse until much later (when a lot more was uncovered).  Straight Inc. is a good example of this. It was endorsed by both Nancy Reagan and Bush Sr.  It's almost impossible to tell a good program from a bad one (even to the trained eye).  There are just too many ways to be slippery about doing things.  Even today, Straight Inc derived programs exist using similar or identical methods.

Another case study would be Alldredge Academy (AKA, the Ayne Institute). They got shut down so they opened the next day under a new "official" name but kept the old name on their marketing.  There are far too many instances of this kind of thing.

I am aware of what happens when parents call, but I still recommend them reviewing the site.

For what possible good reason?  That does not make a whole lot of sense.  A parent is looking for help and you refer them to the lions den for....    I can understand trying to say "hey... look at how they con you, and here's how"... but without a warning or disclaimer... even implying it's reputable.  Again...  It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me.

Would you recommend a school that has been under investigation by the authorities with substantiated accounts of abuse (by authorities as well as independent watchdogs), with lawsuits, and with congressional testimony against it?

Depends on what the allegations were and what the school is doing in response.  Sometimes after the spotlight has been on a school it rises up and becomes better than the best.  Although it could be short lived also, so its good to keep and ear on the rail.

Well.  What about Family Foundation.  You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program.  Are you aware of the allegations against it?  I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously.  Is it worth taking the risk.  Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints?  Asked questions?  Asked what to look for?

Do you have any schools which you consider the best of the bad (knowing you don’t recommend programs to anyone)

lol.  You're setting me up with that one there.  I'll tell you what the worst of the worst is if that's what you're wondering (but then again this is just my opinion).  I'd have to say Judge Rotenberg center would be high up there along with the WWASP facilities and the Pathway Family Centers.

I don't do "this is good"  I do "this is bad".  It's a useful counterbalance to the marketing.  It's a practice that, while seemingly distasteful or overly negative actually serves a quite useful function (as you put it, consequences).  If the government can't and/or won't do it, private citizens and watchdogs must (I prefer it that way.  I've rarely ever seen the government get much of anything right.)

[psy]

Well there is some consequence if an educational Consultant isn’t totally open.  But you are right anyone could set up shop and hang out a sign.

The Ed-Conartist (Pun intended) faced no charges, criminal or civil from what I understand.

Not quite true.  She's being sued by at least one of her former clients (whom she referred to Focal Point Academy).  Harbor Oaks is another lawsuit waiting to happen.  I'm a big believer in the use of civil suits to help keep these clowns in check.

[Anonymous]

I could never give a full list of schools, but a few that come to mind are:
Wil Lou Gray
The Academy
The family foundation school
Fulshear ranch academy
Most of the Aspen schools and wilderness programs

 :cry:  :cry:

Someone pull up the stats for these cultic-gulags, please?


Here's some basic info about family foundation. You are doing a great job, kathy S, of murdering young adults. How does it feel to look in the mirror and see a murderer staring back at you? Let me guess? You don't care. People of your sort simply don't.


http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/ ... school.htm
"My name is Brendan Burns. I live in North Hollywood CA my phone number is 818-809-7787 I took the following essay from what i wrote on the website cafety.org. I would like to empasise however that the use of duct tape to restrain teenagers was almost never used because anyone was a threat to themselves or someone else. It was almost always used when a child either wanted to be left alone and would not participate or if they were argumentative. I would also like to emphasize that this happened alot. Not just once or twice. Also for those of us who were there and saw what happened first hand. There is absoluely no question about wheather the kids were a danger to anyone. They were not. I have seen kids who were in isolation for a while refused food or given miniscule and bland amounts of food. Here is an honest simply put account of what it was like to be sent to the family school.







I attended The Family Foundation School in Hancock NY from 95 to 97 or 96 to 98(not sure which) I spent 14 months in the facility one of the record short stays at the time because there was an 18 month minimum though it was rare that they let anyone go in that short period of time. Upon arriving at the Family I was welcomed fairly warmly ( I soon realized this was only because my father was there) ... They took my cloths and replaced them with dorky ones. They also took any reading material I may have selected to bring with me and music. They put me with a buddy (a senior member (a person who had formed into the model)) he seemed bizarrely positive about the place when speaking to my dad. He emphatically emphasized how grateful he was that he came here and that it changed his life for the better. I said goodbye to my dad and he drove off.


   They explained to me what I was not to talk about, that I was not to hum any music that was not approved by the ffs, not to read any newspapers, I was not allowed to use the telephone, they would read my mail, “so I better not say anything negative in my letters”. I was not allowed to be alone. I was not allowed to masturbate (they monitored the showers 3 minutes max with someone standing next to the shower and went with you to the bathroom). Basically all information coming into or out of my mind was to be dictated by and monitored by the FFS, and anything I did or said which indicated a lack of 100 percent compliance and belief in the FFS philosophy would be punished harshly.

    In addition if I so much as suspected let alone overheard or witnessed anyone doing or saying anything "negative" I would be held equally responsible for their actions as if they were my own including witnessing someone else witnessing something and not saying anything about it, which I eventually realized created a race to tell on people. I mean you seriously could not get away with anything period. Something seemed awfully strange about this place. I asked questions and couldn't seem to get any answers. It was like talking to computers that were only programmed with certain responses. It didn't take long to realize everyone was brainwashed or pretending to be. Everyone was a brick wall.

I was freaked out. I actually believed that I was going to find a way out of this place. I thought I could get my parents to come get me or something but that was pretty difficult considering I had no way of contacting them at first and when I finally did get that privilege they explained any attempt at "manipulating” my parents by being negative about the program would immediately result in the call being ended and I would be on blackout where I couldn’t speak to anyone period especially my family.They had also already informed my parents that I may attempt to “manipulate” them and that it would be in my best interest not to succumb to my dishonest behavior. After all they were the experts. They knew exactly how to handle a troubled youth, and in the end I would be grateful for this experience.

  I was labeled negative of course because I was by nature outspoken when I didn't agree and defiant when I didn't want to do something especially if I believed it was wrong. I tried to fight it but as one of the senior members said when I was trying to argue one night "he'll learn" and I did. I was not to speak my own opinion or indicate that I had one under any circumstances, unless it was in 100 percent agreement with the FFS philosophy. In fact the FFS philosophy was to be my opinion 100 percent of the time if I indicated or was even accused of anything less I was to be publicly confronted and screamed at. Then I would be told to sit in a corner. The Corner... you know like in preschool go sit in time out. The Corner was indefinite, with a minimum of 24 hours. If you did not stay in the corner or if you refused you would be duct taped to the chair or your feet would be duct taped together your arms would be duct taped to your back and you would be rolled in a blanket like a burrito and that would be wrapped in more duct tape then you would be put in isolation in duct tape which was actually a boot closet with some book shelves in it. When they decided it had been long enough they would let you out of the blanket then maybe isolation then from isolation back to the corner then you might be aloud out of the corner 24 hours later. It was pretty simple. Most of us, knowing what they would do if we did not comply, allowed ourselves to be subjected with whatever other humiliating and strange punishments they would think of.

  If they told us to trot (which is where you have to trot any time you aren't sitting down) we trotted. If they stood us up at the table (which is where you stand up alone in front of everyone for any infraction of the rules) we stood up. If they asked a girl to recount her promiscuous sexual history …she would. And if they screamed at her telling her she was a whore and was destined to be dope shooting hooker(which seemed to be a popular opinion of the staff about most girls at the school)…. she listened… and agreed. If they took away our privilege to speak… we didn't speak. If they said sit in the corner ….we sat there. They had a pile of rocks which some kids would have to move back and forth all day from one spot to another which as tiring as it could be in itself could be worse if you were also on a trotting sanction.

 They also had a large pile of cow manure for the same purpose. This seemed to be a particularly popular sanction for kids that were too fat. Fat kids were always determined to be lazy slobs who needed to exercise and work more. They were very open with degrading language and screaming they would also throw food at you while they were verbally berating you sometimes.

   As time went on I learned to hate these kids who did not comply or moved too slow because they timed what we did in certain crews and they always seemed to make us lag behind and get us in trouble.

I remember one crew which had to be done in twenty minutes dish crew. It couldn't possibly be done that fast there was just no possibility of that happening 5 kids 80 peoples worth of pots pans dishes and all the surfaces and floors in the kitchen had to be perfect (and I mean that literally) perfectly clean a spot a streak dust anything left would be determined unclean we spent I don't know how long getting screamed at every day for not getting it done fast enough or not getting it clean enough, and trying to explain that it wasn't possible…. was not an option. We had to tell them they were right, that we would do better. Of course we wouldn't because we couldn't. All we could do was working our hardest and then let them yell at us and do all the extra sanctions they gave to us.

   One kid decided it was impossible so he refused saying he just wasn't going to do it. He was supposed to be mopping the floor so they threw him on the ground and dumped mop water on him and used him to mop the floor until he agreed to mop the floor with the mop. The point was that he was going to mop the floor one way or another there was no way around it you were going to act say and become exactly what they wanted. and this is the way it was for us ….


   we smiled when any outsiders were there acting like everything was perfect… assuring parents on tours this was the greatest place in the world …Seeing kids being duct taped up became as normal as kids in a regular school going to detention or getting write offs. I would step over squirming bodies on the floor in the dorm while talking and brushing my teeth like it was perfectly normal ….and it was at the time that’s just what happened if you didn't want to listen. It was there fault for being in the duct tape. I saw kids get punched and lifted 6 feet in the air and dropped on the ground while in these restraints. The one thing though that never seemed right was the newsletter they sent our parents. It never mentioned any of this. It always talked about the great things we were doing grades sports choir. ]They never told our parents the truth and for years after I left my parents were resistant to the truth. I told them about what really went on. After I left I felt like an alien visiting earth… everything I saw people say or do seemed wrong. I felt like I was constantly doing something wrong.. It literally took years before I got over what the family did to my emotions my mind my spirit and my personality. I was socially years behind people my own age. I had no idea how to handle the opposite sex considering for fourteen months I was monitored in the shower and the bathroom to prevent me from masturbating. Anyway I think this is enough to give an accurate picture of what the family school was like during the time I was there.

[Anonymous]

I could never give a full list of schools, but a few that come to mind are:
Wil Lou Gray
The Academy
The family foundation school
Fulshear ranch academy
Most of the Aspen schools and wilderness programs

 :cry:  :cry:

Someone pull up the stats for these cultic-gulags, please?


Here's some basic info about family foundation. You are doing a great job, kathy S, of murdering young adults. How does it feel to look in the mirror and see a murderer staring back at you? Let me guess? You don't care. People of your sort simply don't.


http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/US/ ... school.htm
"My name is Brendan Burns. I live in North Hollywood CA my phone number is 818-809-7787 I took the following essay from what i wrote on the website cafety.org. I would like to empasise however that the use of duct tape to restrain teenagers was almost never used because anyone was a threat to themselves or someone else. It was almost always used when a child either wanted to be left alone and would not participate or if they were argumentative. I would also like to emphasize that this happened alot. Not just once or twice. Also for those of us who were there and saw what happened first hand. There is absoluely no question about wheather the kids were a danger to anyone. They were not. I have seen kids who were in isolation for a while refused food or given miniscule and bland amounts of food. Here is an honest simply put account of what it was like to be sent to the family school.







I attended The Family Foundation School in Hancock NY from 95 to 97 or 96 to 98(not sure which) I spent 14 months in the facility one of the record short stays at the time because there was an 18 month minimum though it was rare that they let anyone go in that short period of time. Upon arriving at the Family I was welcomed fairly warmly ( I soon realized this was only because my father was there) ... They took my cloths and replaced them with dorky ones. They also took any reading material I may have selected to bring with me and music. They put me with a buddy (a senior member (a person who had formed into the model)) he seemed bizarrely positive about the place when speaking to my dad. He emphatically emphasized how grateful he was that he came here and that it changed his life for the better. I said goodbye to my dad and he drove off.


   They explained to me what I was not to talk about, that I was not to hum any music that was not approved by the ffs, not to read any newspapers, I was not allowed to use the telephone, they would read my mail, “so I better not say anything negative in my letters”. I was not allowed to be alone. I was not allowed to masturbate (they monitored the showers 3 minutes max with someone standing next to the shower and went with you to the bathroom). Basically all information coming into or out of my mind was to be dictated by and monitored by the FFS, and anything I did or said which indicated a lack of 100 percent compliance and belief in the FFS philosophy would be punished harshly.

    In addition if I so much as suspected let alone overheard or witnessed anyone doing or saying anything "negative" I would be held equally responsible for their actions as if they were my own including witnessing someone else witnessing something and not saying anything about it, which I eventually realized created a race to tell on people. I mean you seriously could not get away with anything period. Something seemed awfully strange about this place. I asked questions and couldn't seem to get any answers. It was like talking to computers that were only programmed with certain responses. It didn't take long to realize everyone was brainwashed or pretending to be. Everyone was a brick wall.

I was freaked out. I actually believed that I was going to find a way out of this place. I thought I could get my parents to come get me or something but that was pretty difficult considering I had no way of contacting them at first and when I finally did get that privilege they explained any attempt at "manipulating” my parents by being negative about the program would immediately result in the call being ended and I would be on blackout where I couldn’t speak to anyone period especially my family.They had also already informed my parents that I may attempt to “manipulate” them and that it would be in my best interest not to succumb to my dishonest behavior. After all they were the experts. They knew exactly how to handle a troubled youth, and in the end I would be grateful for this experience.

  I was labeled negative of course because I was by nature outspoken when I didn't agree and defiant when I didn't want to do something especially if I believed it was wrong. I tried to fight it but as one of the senior members said when I was trying to argue one night "he'll learn" and I did. I was not to speak my own opinion or indicate that I had one under any circumstances, unless it was in 100 percent agreement with the FFS philosophy. In fact the FFS philosophy was to be my opinion 100 percent of the time if I indicated or was even accused of anything less I was to be publicly confronted and screamed at. Then I would be told to sit in a corner. The Corner... you know like in preschool go sit in time out. The Corner was indefinite, with a minimum of 24 hours. If you did not stay in the corner or if you refused you would be duct taped to the chair or your feet would be duct taped together your arms would be duct taped to your back and you would be rolled in a blanket like a burrito and that would be wrapped in more duct tape then you would be put in isolation in duct tape which was actually a boot closet with some book shelves in it. When they decided it had been long enough they would let you out of the blanket then maybe isolation then from isolation back to the corner then you might be aloud out of the corner 24 hours later. It was pretty simple. Most of us, knowing what they would do if we did not comply, allowed ourselves to be subjected with whatever other humiliating and strange punishments they would think of.

  If they told us to trot (which is where you have to trot any time you aren't sitting down) we trotted. If they stood us up at the table (which is where you stand up alone in front of everyone for any infraction of the rules) we stood up. If they asked a girl to recount her promiscuous sexual history …she would. And if they screamed at her telling her she was a whore and was destined to be dope shooting hooker(which seemed to be a popular opinion of the staff about most girls at the school)…. she listened… and agreed. If they took away our privilege to speak… we didn't speak. If they said sit in the corner ….we sat there. They had a pile of rocks which some kids would have to move back and forth all day from one spot to another which as tiring as it could be in itself could be worse if you were also on a trotting sanction.

 They also had a large pile of cow manure for the same purpose. This seemed to be a particularly popular sanction for kids that were too fat. Fat kids were always determined to be lazy slobs who needed to exercise and work more. They were very open with degrading language and screaming they would also throw food at you while they were verbally berating you sometimes.

   As time went on I learned to hate these kids who did not comply or moved too slow because they timed what we did in certain crews and they always seemed to make us lag behind and get us in trouble.

I remember one crew which had to be done in twenty minutes dish crew. It couldn't possibly be done that fast there was just no possibility of that happening 5 kids 80 peoples worth of pots pans dishes and all the surfaces and floors in the kitchen had to be perfect (and I mean that literally) perfectly clean a spot a streak dust anything left would be determined unclean we spent I don't know how long getting screamed at every day for not getting it done fast enough or not getting it clean enough, and trying to explain that it wasn't possible…. was not an option. We had to tell them they were right, that we would do better. Of course we wouldn't because we couldn't. All we could do was working our hardest and then let them yell at us and do all the extra sanctions they gave to us.

   One kid decided it was impossible so he refused saying he just wasn't going to do it. He was supposed to be mopping the floor so they threw him on the ground and dumped mop water on him and used him to mop the floor until he agreed to mop the floor with the mop. The point was that he was going to mop the floor one way or another there was no way around it you were going to act say and become exactly what they wanted. and this is the way it was for us ….


   we smiled when any outsiders were there acting like everything was perfect… assuring parents on tours this was the greatest place in the world …Seeing kids being duct taped up became as normal as kids in a regular school going to detention or getting write offs. I would step over squirming bodies on the floor in the dorm while talking and brushing my teeth like it was perfectly normal ….and it was at the time that’s just what happened if you didn't want to listen. It was there fault for being in the duct tape. I saw kids get punched and lifted 6 feet in the air and dropped on the ground while in these restraints. The one thing though that never seemed right was the newsletter they sent our parents. It never mentioned any of this. It always talked about the great things we were doing grades sports choir. ]They never told our parents the truth and for years after I left my parents were resistant to the truth. I told them about what really went on. After I left I felt like an alien visiting earth… everything I saw people say or do seemed wrong. I felt like I was constantly doing something wrong.. It literally took years before I got over what the family did to my emotions my mind my spirit and my personality. I was socially years behind people my own age. I had no idea how to handle the opposite sex considering for fourteen months I was monitored in the shower and the bathroom to prevent me from masturbating. Anyway I think this is enough to give an accurate picture of what the family school was like during the time I was there.

Oh, come on, I wasnt born yesterday.  First of all your link did not take me to any news article.  It took me to a web site called “secret prisons for teens” where they call the kids detainees.  So right off the bat we have a website which is inaccurate and not reputable.  I am not aware of any school which calls its students detainees or detained kids.  So it is apparent that the owner of that site (at most) might have had a friend or relative who attended this school but has no idea what the school is all about based on the vocabulary used so I am not sure how anyone who has could believe any of what is written there.
 
The choice of the website name alone shows it is a lampoon site and not credible.  Why would you believe this stuff to be fact?  Show me where Family foundation school refers to their students as detainees or detained kids.  You are very guillible my friend.

[Anonymous]

TheWho is KathyS

[Anonymous]

Yes. The school does not refer to its detainees as detainees it uses the euphanism "student." SPFT uses the english term that appropriately descibes the captives situation, not the Orwellian newspeak that you, and FFS, as a cult and dealer in human bodies respectively prefer.

SPFT links to "articles" and sworned testimony before congree
Here is testimony of the same before congress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A

http://www.nospank.net/szlvtz7.htm

http://www.newpaltz.edu/oracle/article.cfm?id=3317

http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... my_Johnson

http://www.isaccorp.org/thayer/maia-sza ... 04.08.html


As an edcon who is seeminly unaware of this, you are not doing a great job of keeping educated about the private prisons you "research" and refer to. What is your name and where is your site? I mean, reputable professionals don't keep their identity hidden to prevent inquiry into their "sucess" level. Do you?

[TheWho]

And yet you referred the parent to a WWASP website? That doesn't make a lot of sense. You wrote: "If you enter any reputable site your identity is safe and there are built in procedures which keeps your identity private. The links I provided are secure sites for you to visit." While I admit that is slightly out of context, you did imply their site was reputable...... For what possible good reason? That does not make a whole lot of sense. A parent is looking for help and you refer them to the lions den for....  I can understand trying to say "hey... look at how they con you, and here's how"... but without a warning or disclaimer... even implying it's reputable. Again... It just doesn't make a lot of sense to me..

I talk to the parents first before the enter any of the sites or reading I recommend.  I wasn’t implying reputable, just safe, as far as their identity goes.  Fornits is probably safe enough but I don’t recommend parents to make posts, I have them visit to read certain threads.

Well. What about Family Foundation. You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program. Are you aware of the allegations against it? I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously. Is it worth taking the risk. Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints? Asked questions? Asked what to look for?

I am aware of the problems they have had over the years, but they have had tremendous success.  I know a few people can do a great deal of harm if they choose to hurt a business or school by spreading stories.  The post one or two before this is a good example.  The author didn’t even get the terminology right and the person who posted it still believed the kids story.  But anyway it looks like it has been in circulation for over 10 years so it isn’t that important anyway, but it is a good example.

lol. You're setting me up with that one there. I'll tell you what the worst of the worst is if that's what you're wondering (but then again this is just my opinion). I'd have to say Judge Rotenberg center would be high up there along with the WWASP facilities and the Pathway Family Centers.

I don't do "this is good" I do "this is bad". It's a useful counterbalance to the marketing. It's a practice that, while seemingly distasteful or overly negative actually serves a quite useful function (as you put it, consequences). If the government can't and/or won't do it, private citizens and watchdogs must (I prefer it that way. I've rarely ever seen the government get much of anything right.)

I was getting set up myself so I thought I would spread the happiness.  The last thing we want is more government interference.  Gitmo is a good example.  Do you think they are forth coming and honest about how the people are treated?  Do they follow their own polices?  Do you think they care how other people, schools, would conduct themselves?   :karma:

[psy]

How about testimony at the GAO hearings.  A sworn statement corroborating the above good enough for you? (not the same source either):

http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008 ... awford.pdf

There are video clips on youtube as well

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A

A news article here (of which there are many more):

http://www.ktar.com/?nid=6&sid=817660

SPFT (a bunch of guys from Denmark who also manage the Fornits wiki) are not native English speakers.  They recently referred to suicides in program as "necktie parties":
http://fornits.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php? ... 36#p323091

Whether they refer to students as "detainees" or not is irrelevant.  The details in the statement from Brendan Burns are corroborated by those of Jon Martin Crawford.  The GAO also investigated his claims independently.

[TheWho]

Yes. The school does not refer to its detainees as detainees it uses the euphanism "student." SPFT uses the english term that appropriately descibes the captives situation, not the Orwellian newspeak that you, and FFS, as a cult and dealer in human bodies respectively prefer.

SPFT links to "articles" and sworned testimony before congree
Here is testimony of the same before congress
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dr47O5OjC_A

http://www.nospank.net/szlvtz7.htm

http://www.newpaltz.edu/oracle/article.cfm?id=3317

http://cafety.youthrights.org/wiki/inde ... my_Johnson

http://www.isaccorp.org/thayer/maia-sza ... 04.08.html


As an edcon who is seeminly unaware of this, you are not doing a great job of keeping educated about the private prisons you "research" and refer to. What is your name and where is your site? I mean, reputable professionals don't keep their identity hidden to prevent inquiry into their "sucess" level. Do you?

I have been here way too long .  This is addicting.
Look who ever you are.  If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose.  If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others.  Your what my brother terms a waco.
You really think I would give you my website? or any other information?

[psy]

I talk to the parents first before the enter any of the sites or reading I recommend.  I wasn’t implying reputable, just safe, as far as their identity goes.  Fornits is probably safe enough but I don’t recommend parents to make posts, I have them visit to read certain threads.

I don't mean to be accusatory, but you didn't talk to Marcy before you referred her there, now did you?  Yes, fornits is safe identity-wise (at least peopel's identities are safe unless they decide to share that voluntarily, which is stupid).  There are no exceptions to this rule.  Barring a court order, anonymity is absolute.  On the other hand, it is an unmoderated forum (with the exception of "Facilities Questions and Answers" so it can be very harsh at times.  There are a lot of bitter posters here (and with reason).

Well. What about Family Foundation. You mentioned that and i'm familiar with it and would endorse it as a good program. Are you aware of the allegations against it? I am aware of their response, but i've heard "we don't do that anymore" far too many times to take it seriously. Is it worth taking the risk. Have you spoken to kids who have been in FFS with critical viewpoints? Asked questions? Asked what to look for?

I am aware of the problems they have had over the years, but they have had tremendous success.  I know a few people can do a great deal of harm if they choose to hurt a business or school by spreading stories.  The post one or two before this is a good example.  The author didn’t even get the terminology right and the person who posted it still believed the kids story.  But anyway it looks like it has been in circulation for over 10 years so it isn’t that important anyway, but it is a good example.

Well.  You seemed to be unaware of the congressional testimony of Jon Martin Crawford.  It's not a small thing when the GAO cites a program (they DO investigate allegations independently as they don't want to end up with egg on their faces).  Did you watch the GAO hearings?  The first one?  The second one?

I was getting set up myself so I thought I would spread the happiness.  The last thing we want is more government interference.  Gitmo is a good example.  Do you think they are forth coming and honest about how the people are treated?  Do they follow their own polices?  Do you think they care how other people, schools, would conduct themselves?   :karma:

Of course they don't care, unless it's politically useful to care.  I'm more in favor of public education than government control.  I feel that regulation on this industry is likely to be so badly botched by the government that it will give parents little more than a false sense of security.  Straight was endorsed by the government.  It was licensed and it didn't do that program any good.  Peninsula Village is licensed, and i've heard a lot of horror stories out of there.  I'm in the minority here, though.  Most feel regulation is the solution.  I'm terrified of it, frankly, for the reasons I mentioned and more.

[psy]

I have been here way too long .  This is addicting.

Yes.  You're powerless and fornits is a progressive disease *swings pocketwatch watch slowly*  :seg:

Look who ever you are.  If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose.  If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others.  Your what my brother terms a waco.
You really think I would give you my website? or any other information?

The youtube account he cited was the same that I did.  It's a US government account (they use Youtube as well).  As for the testimony I cited, it's on a USG website as well.  That was sworn testimony before congress about FFS corroborating those other allegations (which were also investigated by the GAO).  What more do you want?

Now I might not have much respect for the goverment getting stuff done, but the GAO did do a fantastic job on their investigation (if you've read their reports or watched the hearings).  I attended the first hearing.  What you don't see is whenever the camera is off Jan Moss (NATSAP), her lawyers are whispering in her ear (this was quite entertaining to watch).