Wow, obama is going to win

[Anonymous]

I don't mean to be accusatory, but you didn't talk to Marcy before you referred her there, now did you? Yes, fornits is safe identity-wise (at least peopel's identities are safe unless they decide to share that voluntarily, which is stupid). There are no exceptions to this rule. Barring a court order, anonymity is absolute. On the other hand, it is an moderated forum (with the exception of "Facilities Questions and Answers" so it can be very harsh at times. There are a lot of bitter posters here (and with reason).

No I didn’t, but she was already here on fornits and I didn’t want to bring it up in the post.  Dont remember why.  But I typically do.

Well. You seemed to be unaware of the congressional testimony of Jon Martin Crawford. It's not a small thing when the GAO cites a program (they DO investigate allegations independently as they don't want to end up with egg on their faces). Did you watch the GAO hearings? The first one? The second one?
Of course they don't care, unless it's politically useful to care. I'm more in favor of public education than government control. I feel that regulation on this industry is likely to be so badly botched by the government that it will give parents little more than a false sense of security. Straight was endorsed by the government. It was licensed and it didn't do that program any good. Peninsula Village is licensed, and i've heard a lot of horror stories out of there. I'm in the minority here, though. Most feel regulation is the solution. I'm terrified of it, frankly, for the reasons I mentioned and more.

I watched the first hearing, a couple of times.  The other allegations I have read about or have had discussed with me second hand.

[psy]

Well.  What do you think now about FFS (you might want to read Jon Martin's testimony first and compare it to the other before responding).

[Anonymous]

I have been here way too long .  This is addicting.

Yes.  You're powerless and fornits is a progressive disease *swings pocketwatch watch slowly*  :seg:

LOL, I am beginning to believe you.

Look who ever you are.  If you really think they are a cult and dealer in human bodies and pretend the word student is foriegn you have a screw loose.  If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others.  Your what my brother terms a waco.
You really think I would give you my website? or any other information?

The youtube account he cited was the same that I did.  It's a US government account (they use Youtube as well).  As for the testimony I cited, it's on a USG website as well.  That was sworn testimony before congress about FFS corroborating those other allegations (which were also investigated by the GAO).  What more do you want?

Now I might not have much respect for the goverment getting stuff done, but the GAO did do a fantastic job on their investigation (if you've read their reports or watched the hearings).  I attended the first hearing.  What you don't see is whenever the camera is off Jan Moss (NATSAP), her lawyers are whispering in her ear (this was quite entertaining to watch).

You attended the first hearing?  I have met Jan Moss a couple of times.  She is very competent.  I am not quite anonymous on this site so I cannot comment further without hurting some people.

[Froderik]

What's funny is that Obama already won yet here we are on this thread, and apparently way off topic, to boot.

[Anonymous]

Well.  What do you think now about FFS (you might want to read Jon Martin's testimony first and compare it to the other before responding).

I think FFS has done a good job getting past this.   Have you read FFS's response(s)?  I have read both and visited the school and spoken to graduates.  They responded well.

[psy]

Well.  What do you think now about FFS (you might want to read Jon Martin's testimony first and compare it to the other before responding).

I think FFS has done a good job getting past this.   Have you read FFS's response(s)?  I have read both and visited the school and spoken to graduates.  They responded well.

Yes.  I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock.  "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.

What questions did you ask their graduates, specifically?  Who referred you to those graduates (did the program suggest them, or did you find them)?  Did you speak to critics such as Jon Martin?

Interview anybody on this myspace group of former FFS students?

http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fus ... =100103584

[psy]

Just to put things in perspective:  If somebody was convicted of or admitted to child abuse.  Would you trust your child with them if they said "we don't do that anymore"?  If they're low enough to stoop to child abuse, you really think they're above lying about it?

Come on.  Would you feel comfortable sending your child there?  Would you feel comfortable about the cut in communication then?  We're not talking mild stuff here either.  We're talking duct tape, kids wrapped in rugs, sexual stuff, etc...  Think about it.  It's OK to say you messed up.

[Ursus]

Well.  What do you think now about FFS (you might want to read Jon Martin's testimony first and compare it to the other before responding).

I think FFS has done a good job getting past this.   Have you read FFS's response(s)?  I have read both and visited the school and spoken to graduates.  They responded well.

Yes.  I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock.  "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.

What questions did you ask their graduates, specifically?  Who referred you to those graduates (did the program suggest them, or did you find them)?  Did you speak to critics such as Jon Martin?

Interview anybody on this myspace group of former FFS students?

http://groups.myspace.com/index.cfm?fus ... =100103584

In light of some the things described in that afore-posted testimony, did you speak with graduates while they were at the school, or away, and if the latter, how long had it been since they had graduated?

[FemanonFatal2.0]

FemanonFatal, I am sorry to hear what you have gone thru.  I can honestly tell you that I have never experienced that with anyone I have spoken to and maybe it is because I read extensively on schools, articles and fornits and have avoided places with a high risk associated with it.
I believe that abuse exists but I also believe that it is not systemic nor ingrained in the industry.
I believe regulation is on its way which will help weed out some of the wicked places which exist in all businesses, but unfortunately we are years away at best.  Hopefully we can avoid sending kids to these places by raising awareness via getting the word out and talking about everyones experiences.

Ok, if what you are saying here is true, and I took the time to gather people you could speak to about these schools (both those who had bad and good experiences) would you consider our findings, and agree not to recommend the schools which we proved to be abusive? lets say, we did a survey, where we had at least 4 people that went to every WWASP school (or maybe Aspen) 2 of which expressed that they were grateful for their experience and 2 that were not satisfied and we asked them all the same exact questions. Based on their answers if there was a unanimous agreement that psychological and physical abuse existed and there were significant amounts of human rights violations "ingrained in the industry" would you stop referring to WWASP schools? futhermore would you require any school that you did recommend to essentially pass this test "with flying colors" before you would recommend it?

What I dont understand is why it is not in the job description of an Ed Con to do these kinds of investigations on a school before you put more children in danger. To tell you the truth, I am convinced that MANY of the schools that make up the troubled teen industry are corrupt and operate outside the boundries of the law and common ethics. I am not completely opposed to the idea that there are a few "good" programs but in my experience, since most of them are closely connected and created from similar program models and principals that those "good" schools are so few and far between that it would be a dangerous business to get into rerring programs. The only way I would consider a referral service to be doing their job is if their services were contingent on a rigorous investigation, a regulation (child protection) contract, and would need to employ ex-survivors who are against the abusive programs who are keen and able to spot the evidence of abuse and oppression. For instance, you need to provide that school with a contract that states that every student should be allowed to access a phone that will dial 911 or child protective services and or if they request private counsel they will be abliged that right indefinately. You will also need to find a way to enforce it, being that you should be in touch with the local law enforcement and district attorney and they need to be aware that this school is under regulation and requires their services to ensure that these children's rights are being protected. You also need to have surprise drop ins and access to have PRIVATE meetings with students OF ALL LEVELS and ask them very specific questions. I know this all sounds like a big job, but honestly it what you people SHOULD be doing in order to make SURE the kids in the schools you recommend are NOT being abused. I advise you to get a bunch of your Ed con buddies together and talk about what you really need to be doing to ensure the safety of the children you are referring, otherwise if I were you, I wouldn't be able to sleep at night.

To tell you the truth, you people really should be on our side. We arent lying to you and you should heed our stories as warnings of what schools you need to avoid at all costs. If you people can grow the balls to take a stand against the evil you know exist in this industry then it will seize to exist because they wont have anyone to fill their schools. You people are really the key to saving these kids lives and rewarding the few programs that really are doing something right. If you and your people are willing to do something like this, let us know because I assure you that we will work WITH you to help you to weed out those programs you must stand against. I think if we all put our heads together we could write you a detailed list of the things in the programs that work and dont work and if you can find a school that employs more "working" practices then "non-working" practices then you will have found your winners.

Another thing, that bill to end institutionalized child abuse will make very little difference if YOU don't enforce it. The main problem is that unless there is a committee that is dedicated to physically regulating the programs on behalf of our government that piece of paper will make no difference besides giving parents a false sense of security.

[Anonymous]

Yes. I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock. "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.

I have been exposed to a little more than that.  I have seen the detailed changes that took place from the top down.  They have made many procedural changes since then.

What questions did you ask their graduates, specifically? Who referred you to those graduates (did the program suggest them, or did you find them)? Did you speak to critics such as Jon Martin?

Some of them I knew going in and I had the pleasure of speaking to a few students after graduation.  I don’t remember the exact questions.

Interview anybody on this myspace group of former FFS students?

I didn’t recognize any of the names or faces.

Just to put things in perspective: If somebody was convicted of or admitted to child abuse. Would you trust your child with them if they said "we don't do that anymore"? If they're low enough to stoop to child abuse, you really think they're above lying about it?

Come on. Would you feel comfortable sending your child there? Would you feel comfortable about the cut in communication then? We're not talking mild stuff here either. We're talking duct tape, kids wrapped in rugs, sexual stuff, etc... Think about it. It's OK to say you messed up.

On the surface I would not.  But knowing what I do about the changes made, the amount of time that has passed to allow a cultural change to take effect I would easily allow a loved one to go.  I take it from your tone that you do not trust that any changes have taken place.  You have to consider that this was a long time ago (mid to late ‘90’s).  A cultural change takes only a few years to take hold.

[psy]

Yes. I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock. "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.

I have been exposed to a little more than that.  I have seen the detailed changes that took place from the top down.  They have made many procedural changes since then.

Such as?  You know this first hand?

You know this from detailed questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?

But knowing what I do about the changes made, the amount of time that has passed to allow a cultural change to take effect I would easily allow a loved one to go.  I take it from your tone that you do not trust that any changes have taken place.  You have to consider that this was a long time ago (mid to late ‘90’s).  A cultural change takes only a few years to take hold.

When did they claim these cultural changes started?

[Anonymous]

Yes. I've read their "we don't do that anymore" response, and it's my opinion based on past experience that it's a crock. "We don't do that anymore" is what they always say when they get caught.

I have been exposed to a little more than that.  I have seen the detailed changes that took place from the top down.  They have made many procedural changes since then.

Such as?  You know this first hand?

You know this from detailed questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?

But knowing what I do about the changes made, the amount of time that has passed to allow a cultural change to take effect I would easily allow a loved one to go.  I take it from your tone that you do not trust that any changes have taken place.  You have to consider that this was a long time ago (mid to late ‘90’s).  A cultural change takes only a few years to take hold.

When did they claim these cultural changes started?

Myself and others review information as a team.  I dont recall the timelines and detail, but there was a great amount of work done by FFS to address all the open items and problems they had experienced in the past.  It would be difficult to sort thru the information and present it and I am not sure if I would be allowed to on an open web site.  I'll probably get my ass chewed, as it is, tomorrow.

My brain is a little fried and sleep deprived and I have not been very productive today.
Not one referral!!  ...... Only kidding.

[psy]

Myself and others review information as a team.  I dont recall the timelines and detail, but there was a great amount of work done by FFS to address all the open items and problems they had experienced in the past.  It would be difficult to sort thru the information and present it and I am not sure if I would be allowed to on an open web site.

Well. If you can't answer the timeline in detail can you answer whether the information was directly from FFS or was it confirmed by secondary sources as I suggested (questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?).

I'll probably get my ass chewed, as it is, tomorrow.

My brain is a little fried and sleep deprived and I have not been very productive today.
Not one referral!!  ...... Only kidding.

I'm somewhat surprised more educational consultants haven't posted on this site more. It's unmoderated and anonymous after all.  I know lots read this site but why more don't post is a mystery.

[Anonymous]

Well. If you can't answer the timeline in detail can you answer whether the information was directly from FFS or was it confirmed by secondary sources as I suggested (questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?).

Someone in our organization works directly with the schools.  They visit the schools to verify in person when important changes have been made.  Some schools have like a press conference where many are invited.  I have spoken mostly to recent graduates and I follow up after time expires (6 months,year etc.) although I don’t recall specifically from FFS any contact a year or later out because I have not had many there.

I'm somewhat surprised more educational consultants haven't posted on this site more. It's unmoderated and anonymous after all. I know lots read this site but why more don't post is a mystery.

I am not sure why I am posting here.  Just had a question or two I guess or a need to respond.  I have always read here off and on to gather information on different places.  You guys are always on top of problems surfacing in programs and many times are talking about it before we get a memo or email.  It can be very draining posting here if you get a hostile group that goes after you as I have seen in the past.
One question I get the most from parents is why you refer to the schools as prisons and gulags with prison guards, abductions and detainees.  On one hand the posters are screaming to be taken seriously and heard but on the other these terms turn the stories into a parody which is saying “Dont take us too seriously we are blowing off steam”.  That has always been a big curiosity with me also.  I don’t have an answer for them except it is just kids acting out their frustration.   The anger is real but the stories may not be.  So I tell them not to take the details literally.
Another surprise is that many here never heard about being emancipated.  There is a lot of talk about kids should have the same rights as prisoners and getting a lawyer.  Not sure where all that comes from. Seems to be a recurring theme.

I still need to respond to FemanonFatal (I like your name).  I am getting tired but I will respond eventually.

[psy]

Well. If you can't answer the timeline in detail can you answer whether the information was directly from FFS or was it confirmed by secondary sources as I suggested (questions of current graduates (for example, have you asked recent graduates who have been out for a year or so whether not not duct tape was used, whether or not there were isolation rooms, whether or not the program required detailed sexual histories which were made public etc?).

Someone in our organization works directly with the schools.  They visit the schools to verify in person when important changes have been made.

Well. The red cross verified the Jews were treated just dandy in Terezin.  If it's possible to cover that up...  I've seen first hand programs put up similar chirades for outsiders (parents on tours, etc).  I can describe you in great detail exactly how the con is pulled (and chances are, unless you know exactly what to look for, you'll be taken in)

Some schools have like a press conference where many are invited.  I have spoken mostly to recent graduates and I follow up after time expires (6 months,year etc.) although I don’t recall specifically from FFS any contact a year or later out because I have not had many there.

Out of those you did speak to, did you ask about the specific allegations by Jon Martin and others.  Keep in mind as i've said, that many kids will see the most horrific abuse as "therapy" (or at the very least, necessary) if they have no other concept of "therapy".  This has been the case with the most abusive programs (such as WWASP or Straight).  You must ask specific questions if you want to get to the truth.

How many said "the program saved my life"?

I am not sure why I am posting here.  Just had a question or two I guess or a need to respond.  I have always read here off and on to gather information on different places.  You guys are always on top of problems surfacing in programs and many times are talking about it before we get a memo or email.  It can be very draining posting here if you get a hostile group that goes after you as I have seen in the past.

That is very true.

One question I get the most from parents is why you refer to the schools as prisons and gulags with prison guards, abductions and detainees.

The theory is to stop using euphemisms.  I don't particularly agree since it does sound extreme to parents, but who am I to judge.  This site isn't just for parents.  It's for anybody to have an open discussion on this issue.  There are other sites more oriented towards parents (such as isaccorp.org).

The term "Gulag" is not used in ignorance either.  If you've seen the amazon book bar that appears occasionally at the top of the screen, "The Gulag Archipelago" is in the rotation.  Many here see parallels between the troubled teen industry and the Gulag system (imprisonment without trial for arbitrary reasons, forced confessions, no right to legal representation, arbitrary length of stay, no communication with the outside world, imprisonment for profit or personal agenda, etc...).

Similarly, the other terms are meant to more accurately describe the "program experience".  It does sound extreme, but there are sound reasons behind it.

On one hand the posters are screaming to be taken seriously and heard but on the other these terms turn the stories into a parody which is saying “Dont take us too seriously we are blowing off steam”.  That has always been a big curiosity with me also.  I don’t have an answer for them except it is just kids acting out their frustration.   The anger is real but the stories may not be.  So I tell them not to take the details literally.

But often the stories are real.  While they might sound absurd or angry, the details are often corroborated by others.  As you, yourself, said, this site is often on top of things when it comes to spotting abuses.  While we're certainly not infallible, many of us have been in abusive programs and know what to look for.

Another surprise is that many here never heard about being emancipated.  There is a lot of talk about kids should have the same rights as prisoners and getting a lawyer.  Not sure where all that comes from. Seems to be a recurring theme.

Well.  The idea being that kids are human beings and not property.  Many feel that if kids were given legal rights to due process or representation, they would not be totally in the hands of their parents who may very well be over-reacting, taken advantage of, conned, or abusive.