Wow, obama is going to win

[FemanonFatal2.0]

A few things I wanted to add here based on your replies as of late.

So what you have stated is that because a site uses words that make it apparent that they are not in support of child imprisonment that automatically means they are un-reputable? That is EXACTLY like saying, say you are a republican that all websites that are clearly democratic and furthermore anyone representing democratic views is un-reputable. Essentially we are the Republicans and Democrats of the Troubled Teen Industry issue, and just because one group takes a different stance on the issue does not automatically make them un-reputable. What I find so troubling with your opinion here is that these are people who have LIVED through these experiences, these are their stories about most likely the most trying times in their lives and you completely discredit them right off the bat just because the grammar on the websites indicates that the authors disagree with your stance on the issue. So basically, when I tell you that I was starved, beaten, burned, and almost murdered via drowning in mud in High Impact that statement has no relevance to you because I posted in on Fornits which happens to be an Anti-program website? I really suggest you rethink your logic here because its very skewed, and in a very ignorant direction I might add.

Another thing is you mentioned that you have spoken to graduates and they give you good responses. I can believe this statement as true, but what I'm wondering is if you have spoken to this graduates 6 months, a year or years later. Or if you keep contact with their parents on their progress. I'm curious to hear first hand what these program graduates have to say now that they have had time to deprogram. I would actually prefer to speak to them myself, I know you probably wont give out that information but I hope, if you even do consent to participate in a survey that you will ask those people to answer a few questions.

Another thing is that you make accusations that our language suggests we are making things up or exaggerating. I can understand from an uninformed point of view or that of a person who didnt directly experience these things that you would assume so but what you don't understand is that we have significant evidence that these terms are well validated. Ill be specific, when we say "detainee" instead of "student" we are referring to the point that kids in these programs are most ALWAYS held against their will unable to leave at any time nor make any requests to leave, as well most times are not even involved with the decision to be detained in these schools and futhermore without due process of the law nor a without going through a 3rd party admissions process. Another phrase I use is "private prison" and that is because for the reasons stated above and when the only requirement to have your child held against their will is $2,000 a month, that statement remains valid. Especially when calling these facilities a school is WAY off base given that some facilities have a limited to non-existant education program. Of course this is coming from experience as usual, because I was not permitted to get an education in Casa By the Sea and High Impact did not have any education program. So you can assume from this point on that when we make statements like this it is because from our experience these terms are COMPLETELY relevant.

[Froderik]

So basically, when I tell you that I was starved, beaten, burned, and almost murdered via drowning in mud in High Impact that statement has no relevance to you because I posted in on Fornits which happens to be an Anti-program website? I really suggest you rethink your logic here because its very skewed, and in a very ignorant direction I might add.

:nods:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :rocker:  :beat:  :beat:  :beat:  :tup:  :tup:

[Anonymous]

A few things I wanted to add here based on your replies as of late.

So what you have stated is that because a site uses words that make it apparent that they are not in support of child imprisonment that automatically means they are un-reputable? That is EXACTLY like saying, say you are a republican that all websites that are clearly democratic and furthermore anyone representing democratic views is un-reputable. Essentially we are the Republicans and Democrats of the Troubled Teen Industry issue, and just because one group takes a different stance on the issue does not automatically make them un-reputable. What I find so troubling with your opinion here is that these are people who have LIVED through these experiences, these are their stories about most likely the most trying times in their lives and you completely discredit them right off the bat just because the grammar on the websites indicates that the authors disagree with your stance on the issue. So basically, when I tell you that I was starved, beaten, burned, and almost murdered via drowning in mud in High Impact that statement has no relevance to you because I posted in on Fornits which happens to be an Anti-program website? I really suggest you rethink your logic here because its very skewed, and in a very ignorant direction I might add.

Another thing is you mentioned that you have spoken to graduates and they give you good responses. I can believe this statement as true, but what I'm wondering is if you have spoken to this graduates 6 months, a year or years later. Or if you keep contact with their parents on their progress. I'm curious to hear first hand what these program graduates have to say now that they have had time to deprogram. I would actually prefer to speak to them myself, I know you probably wont give out that information but I hope, if you even do consent to participate in a survey that you will ask those people to answer a few questions.

Another thing is that you make accusations that our language suggests we are making things up or exaggerating. I can understand from an uninformed point of view or that of a person who didnt directly experience these things that you would assume so but what you don't understand is that we have significant evidence that these terms are well validated. Ill be specific, when we say "detainee" instead of "student" we are referring to the point that kids in these programs are most ALWAYS held against their will unable to leave at any time nor make any requests to leave, as well most times are not even involved with the decision to be detained in these schools and futhermore without due process of the law nor a without going through a 3rd party admissions process. Another phrase I use is "private prison" and that is because for the reasons stated above and when the only requirement to have your child held against their will is $2,000 a month, that statement remains valid. Especially when calling these facilities a school is WAY off base given that some facilities have a limited to non-existant education program. Of course this is coming from experience as usual, because I was not permitted to get an education in Casa By the Sea and High Impact did not have any education program. So you can assume from this point on that when we make statements like this it is because from our experience these terms are COMPLETELY relevant.

I slept so good last night.  Reading and writting all day on the computer wiped me out!
I guess I didnt communicate very well yesterday.  I often ask parents to visit fornits and to read specific threads about some of the schools they are interested in or have asked me about.  I would say the majority of them come back to me with comments .  It is hard to explain and I don’t want to be insulting towards anyone.  But let me try to explain.

My oldest daughter would come home from school with her friends and tell me she was in detention that day and the conversation would go a little like this.... “Oh, my, God you would not believe what a prison that place is!!!  Mrs. Devlin didnt let us have anything to eat the whole time.  I was starving and she would not even let mary Ellen leave the room for a drink of water.  I think she was suffering from dehydration and the Nazi didnt even care......When dad gets home I am going to talk to him about suing the school for abuse.
What you dont understand is that almost every parent has heard this drama.  Now no offense but if you say you were in a gulag with prison guards and kidnapped in the middle of the night and detained against your will, tortured, placed in isolation(and then I will add your sentence) was starved, beaten, burned, and almost murdered via drowning in mud in High Impact.  Would most people reading this run to the phone and call the police?  I dont think so.  Is it believable?  Not really.  You probably sustained a great deal of discomfort while there but it is hard to believe staff people were beating you, burning you with cigarettes or fire and holding your head under water until you almost drowned and becoming malnurished to the point of death.  I am sure someone would have noticed, unless they just fatten everyone up just before graduation.  You can only cover up so much with clothing.  You may think that we are not very smart (and you might be right LOL) but we are not that gullible.
Now I am more familiar with the industry than most parents so I know that abuse has and does occur in some of these schools, but parents reading the above story just come away with paaaalease!!!  Take away the drama!!!!  I cant read anymore.  Personally I prefer the drama because it is a piece of the reading that I suggest to parents and sparks great discussion about what their child will and will not be exposed to during their time in a program.  Fornits reading promotes more discussion than say a WWASP web site does and getting parents to start talking about their concerns is a big step to finding a solution.  So everything serves a purpose.

[Anonymous]

I am not saying that the way you communicate is wrong.  I understand it serves its purpose and young people have their own way to communicate. My parents were just as mystified when I described events also.  You are not writing this to serve the parents so dont take the above post as asking you to change.  As an example I was in line checking out my groceries and the bagger and cashier were in a conversation and after each of them spoke the other would say “Shut up”!!.  So they would speak and say shut up, speak and say “Shut up”  it was funny to watch. I can understand how foreign I must have been to my parents now.

[Froderik]

Would most people reading this run to the phone and call the police? I dont think so. Is it believable? Not really. You probably sustained a great deal of discomfort while there but it is hard to believe staff people were beating you, burning you with cigarettes or fire and holding your head under water until you almost drowned and becoming malnurished to the point of death. I am sure someone would have noticed, unless they just fatten everyone up just before graduation. You can only cover up so much with clothing. You may think that we are not very smart (and you might be right LOL) but we are not that gullible.

Keep telling yourself that....

No, these sorts of things could never happen here, not in America.....  

An example of how a program hid things from parents: remove bruised kids from the Open Meetings, claiming they were "misbehaving and disrupting the group." How convenient, eh? Oh no, but a thing like that isn't likely to happen in such a reputable nation as this, is it?

[Anonymous]

Would most people reading this run to the phone and call the police? I dont think so. Is it believable? Not really. You probably sustained a great deal of discomfort while there but it is hard to believe staff people were beating you, burning you with cigarettes or fire and holding your head under water until you almost drowned and becoming malnurished to the point of death. I am sure someone would have noticed, unless they just fatten everyone up just before graduation. You can only cover up so much with clothing. You may think that we are not very smart (and you might be right LOL) but we are not that gullible.

Keep telling yourself that....

No, these sorts of things could never happen here, not in America.....  

An example of how a program hid things from parents: remove bruised kids from the Open Meetings, claiming they were "misbehaving and disrupting the group." How convenient, eh? Oh no, but a thing like that isn't likely to happen in such a reputable nation as this, is it?

Have you seen isaccorp, HEAL, TBfight, Anti-wwasp, SPFT and the testimonies they provide from former captives of the Cultic-Gulags?

Even if you "don't like" these sites, they link to, or provide sworn statements about the systematic torture the captives expereienced.

If these testimonies were untrue the "liars" could easily be sued for fraud.(some of them have been, and  all exonerated) These "liar's" stories were verified by an investigation by the U.S. senate, and in numerous(but not numerous enough) civil and criminal suits. What do you think about the numerous kids who have been beaten or starved to death in these environments? Why haven't you read any of the millions of articles about this subject?...Why are you denying the reality of something that as an "educational consultant" you should at least be aware of the existance of?

When you were first linked to testimony of abuse at the FF-cultic gulag, you stated the abuse described was clearly a fictional story and "lol'ed"

Only after footage of the congressional hearings and submitted sworn statements were twice linked to, did you acknowledge their accuracy. At that point  you said you knew someone involved personally with the GAO personally.

So, why did you pretend the abuse described was ridiculous, clearly a "fictional story" when you "knew" that this treatment was systematic at FFS, if you indeed were aware of hearings as you claimed? Why the subterfuge?

What is your "team's" title?

[psy]

Only after footage of the congressional hearings and submitted sworn statements were twice linked to, did you acknowledge their accuracy. At that point  you said you knew someone involved personally with the GAO personally.

She stated she knew Jan Moss.  Jan moss, the (ex) president of NATSAP.  She was the one at the hearings getting grilled by congressman Miller.  Jan Moss is in no way involved with the GAO (unless you count being investigated by them, which is quite possible.)

[psy]

Kathy.  You might want to research high impact before implying Femanon's story wan an exaggeration.  High Impact that place in Mexico that was shut down by the Mexican authorities (which it takes quite a bit to upset)...  You know.  that one with the dog cages.

Oh that one?
 
Yes.  That one.

Maybe an apology is in order.  Would you prefer people sugar coat their experiences rather than describe them accurately?  Whether you choose to believe such things can happen or not is irrelevant.  They did, and such things are hardly limited to outside the United States.  How much do you know about the death of Aaron Bacon, specifically the condition of his body when he died (what his weight was like, how many bruises, cuts, etc...).  How much do you know about the Challenger series of wilderness programs?  Western Samoa?

Yes.  Actually, many programs have, more or less, "fattened kids up before graduation", whether you choose to believe that or not.

[Anonymous]

You might have missed where I said:

Now I am more familiar with the industry than most parents so I know that abuse has and does occur in some of these schools,..............

But a parent not familiar with the industry will not believe any of your stories.  Here, I have altered the testimony of Jon Martin to try and make the point:

After
being expelled from public school and one private school for marijuana and writing an
underground newspaper, my parents sent me to be detained as an inmate at The Gulag shortly thereafter. (Chairman Miller interrupts “Jon Martin… what place are you talking about?... “Oh it’s the Family center which is New York, it’s a private prison where kids are taken after they are kidnapped to be tortured….  Well okay Jon Martin continue ) Here, they
thought, after touring the prison and were satisfied the barbed wire would keep me in, I would get better, and be able to live a normal life
again. They thought this was the best thing they could be doing for me…for our family.
Once I arrived at The Gulag prison, I knew I was there until I was 18. I hated my parents at
that point and tried to leave, until three 6foot plus 250lb plus prison guards with night sticks and sun glasses …..Chairman Miller interrupts again and says “Mr. Kutz where did you get this witness?  And what is he talking about?  I thought you were going to present witnesses from residential programs.  This boy is talking jiberish)


I have read fornits for some time now so I am use to the lingo, but I don’t think Chairman Miller would understand nor do parents that come here for the first time.  They come across as fabricated stories to them which lack credibility and I don’t think that Chairman Miller would have allowed the witness to continue his testimony.
Why do you think this is?

[Anonymous]

After reading or watching the boys’ accounts of abuse at The Family Foundation School, Kathy S., child-trafficker and murderer, said:

.Why would you believe this stuff to be fact?[..... ]You are very guillible my friend..]
If you havent noticed you are referenceing "youtube", secret prisons for teenagers", nospank as evidence for a fictional writting but demand long term clinical studies from others.

In so many words she says the 2 boys’ accounts are so ridiculous she laughs them off.

The next second, when you linked to the actual sworn statement of one boy’s account, it said :

I watched the first hearing, a couple of times. The other allegations I have read about or have had discussed with me second hand

So…why did the youth-torturer state the accounts she supposedly knew to be true were clearly fictional stories, at first?

Here’s my idea: the human trafficker tried to discredit accounts she knew were true to avoid bringing more negative attention to the Family foundation school  and did that by playing to the “disreputable” nature of SPFT, YouTube, ISAC, CAFETY, NOSPANK, and the New Paltz Oracle Newspaper, and the idea the torture described was so intense as to be “absurd.”

But, after you linked directly to the actual sworn statement,
http://edlabor.house.gov/testimony/2008 ... awford.pdf  such denial became impossible to engage in and maintain any sort of credibility.

Therefore, suddenly, she became totally aware of the abuse at the Family Foundation School, she had watched the GAO hearings, and the boys’ “fictional account” became true—but it was in the past.

Basically, this supposed “edcon” was engaging in the same con game the Cultic-Gulags and their representation always do:
1) The abuse accusations are absurd! (Repeat until successful prosecution)
2) The abuse accusations are true! But they’re in the past! (repeat after successful prosecution)

[psy]

I mostly agree with you that using such language (however accurate) does tend to leave parents wondering "are these people crazy?!?!", but it does not make the language any less descriptive or accurate.  Personally, I tend to avoid describing things with such words and try to more or less simply state the facts.  If a parents wants to interpret something as abusive, or torture, or kidnapping, or whatever, that's the parents choice.  But that's just my approach, and as i've pointed out, this site isn't exactly a site for parents (there are others such as isaccorp for that).  I have no authority to change people's words nor would I consider it appropriate to even suggest it (especially not publicly). It's rude.

On an unrelated note, how has business been recently?  Has the economy affected things?  The GAO hearings?

[Anonymous]

You might have missed where I said:

Now I am more familiar with the industry than most parents so I know that abuse has and does occur in some of these schools,..............

But a parent not familiar with the industry will not believe any of your stories.  Here, I have altered the testimony of Jon Martin to try and make the point:

After
being expelled from public school and one private school for marijuana and writing an
underground newspaper, my parents sent me to be detained as an inmate at The Gulag shortly thereafter. (Chairman Miller interrupts “Jon Martin… what place are you talking about?... “Oh it’s the Family center which is New York, it’s a private prison where kids are taken after they are kidnapped to be tortured….  Well okay Jon Martin continue ) Here, they
thought, after touring the prison and were satisfied the barbed wire would keep me in, I would get better, and be able to live a normal life
again. They thought this was the best thing they could be doing for me…for our family.
Once I arrived at The Gulag prison, I knew I was there until I was 18. I hated my parents at
that point and tried to leave, until three 6foot plus 250lb plus prison guards with night sticks and sun glasses …..Chairman Miller interrupts again and says “Mr. Kutz where did you get this witness?  And what is he talking about?  I thought you were going to present witnesses from residential programs.  This boy is talking jiberish)


I have read fornits for some time now so I am use to the lingo, but I don’t think Chairman Miller would understand nor do parents that come here for the first time.  They come across as fabricated stories to them which lack credibility and I don’t think that Chairman Miller would have allowed the witness to continue his testimony.
Why do you think this is?

But you supposedly knew Family Foundation School imprisoned and systematically abused their "students" so, "crazy lingo" or not, you pretended these accounts were clearly fictional stories when you knew better.

[Anonymous]

Why don’t these survivors demand the administration of the Family Foundation Cultic Gulag be prosecuted for their implementation of systematic psychological torture, physical and sexual abuse and assault, and forced imprisonment, and a plethora of other charges, Psy, anoyone?

[Anonymous]

I mostly agree with you that using such language (however accurate) does tend to leave parents wondering "are these people crazy?!?!", but it does not make the language any less descriptive or accurate.  Personally, I tend to avoid describing things with such words and try to more or less simply state the facts.  If a parents wants to interpret something as abusive, or torture, or kidnapping, or whatever, that's the parents choice.  But that's just my approach, and as i've pointed out, this site isn't exactly a site for parents (there are others such as isaccorp for that).  I have no authority to change people's words nor would I consider it appropriate to even suggest it (especially not publicly). It's rude.

On an unrelated note, how has business been recently?  Has the economy affected things?  The GAO hearings?

Yes, and I think I mentioned that I wasn’t looking to change the way people here speak.  Ijust wanted to point out that parents and/or people who are not familiar with fornits are going to think the stories are fabricated or a lampoon.  But I am sure none of that really matters the main thing is that you understand and communicate with each other within the forum.

The industry has been slow and downsizing to accommodate the economic crisis.  But the demand for educational consultants has increase and I believe that is due to many fly-by-night companies who have not connected well with the schools and programs have dropped out of the business.  So business is brisk.  We didn’t see much effect from the GAO hearings.  We expected a slight bump from just the awareness that residential treatment is available.

How did you like being at the GAO hearings?  When I was younger I was invited to see Newt Gingrich as he was speaking on the governments role in protecting children and it was very powerful.  Lots of energy in the room, it was a little overwhelming for me in a good way.  But it was one of the turning points which made me want to help families and children, which I have been doing in one capacity or another ever since.

[psy]

Yes, and I think I mentioned that I wasn’t looking to change the way people here speak.  Ijust wanted to point out that parents and/or people who are not familiar with fornits are going to think the stories are fabricated or a lampoon.  But I am sure none of that really matters the main thing is that you understand and communicate with each other within the forum.

Well that's the thing. Most of the communication here is just "between us" and unless there is a known parent on the thread, such language tends to be used by many here.  I think a lot here would be wise to take your advice on that.  Just because you're the "enemy" doesn't mean you aren't giving sound advice when it comes to talking to parents (but again, not that this site is oriented towards parents... we have "ban this motherfucker" on the top of the screen and ads for Salvia Divinorum in the ad rotation).

The industry has been slow and downsizing to accommodate the economic crisis.  But the demand for educational consultants has increase and I believe that is due to many fly-by-night companies who have not connected well with the schools and programs have dropped out of the business.  So business is brisk.  We didn’t see much effect from the GAO hearings.  We expected a slight bump from just the awareness that residential treatment is available.

Well shit.  Looks like we're going to have to work harder then.  :seg:

How did you like being at the GAO hearings?  When I was younger I was invited to see Newt Gingrich as he was speaking on the governments role in protecting children and it was very powerful.  Lots of energy in the room, it was a little overwhelming for me in a good way.  But it was one of the turning points which made me want to help families and children, which I have been doing in one capacity or another ever since.

The hearings were very emotional, especially Bob Bacon's testimony.  It was a very moving experience. I loved how George Miller confronted Jan Moss, but then again, i realized at the same time it was just political grandstanding. It did bring a big silly grin to my face and if I remember I think I gave miller the thumbs up sign after he said "What the hell do you do, exactly".

But here's an interesting question here:  You say you want to help families and children and have been doing that ever since.  What if you were to discover one day that at least one of the programs you referred to were abusive, and at least one of the kids you referred were abused.  Might that make you reconsider your career?