Author Topic: Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?  (Read 13245 times)

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Offline TheWho

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #30 on: December 07, 2007, 02:27:28 PM »
A lot of words, but not one name to add.

I have to go with thewho's list.  At least he backs up his data with links to the NCES and the names and schools of the kids that died.

No one else has provided anything except critisism of his efforts.
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Offline Anonymous

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #31 on: December 07, 2007, 02:40:18 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
A lot of words, but not one name to add.

If you haven't been paying attention, that ain't my fault.

Quote
I have to go with thewho's list.

I'm shocked.  SHOCKED I tell you!  

:rofl:


 
Quote
At least he backs up his data with links to the NCES and the names and schools of the kids that died.

No, he provides bullshit "statistics" that are meaningless.

Quote
No one else has provided anything except critisism of his efforts.


START PAYING ATTENTION AND MAYBE YOU'LL CATCH ON.
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Offline Anonymous

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #32 on: December 07, 2007, 02:49:42 PM »
The Matrix analogy has already been done.

This needs to be put in neon lights:

START PAYING ATTENTION AND MAYBE YOU'LL CATCH ON.
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Offline Anonymous

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #33 on: December 07, 2007, 02:56:36 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Cite your source please.  There have been virtually zero randomized, long term, clinical research done.  Until you can back up your assertion with some actual evidence, please refrain from making such claims.

Look.  Even if TheWho's numbers were real (they are not), the data would  still be bogus.  Measurements that would in any way, shape, or form actually be significantly relevant just aren't being done.

Let's take a case in point:  suicide.  When are these data points measured?  During attendance, or perhaps even within a year of attendance?  Think that actually measures the problem?

I attended one of the TBS's on this forum.  I tried to commit suicide after I got out, an act that was absolutely directly as a result of my time in program.  This was three years after I got out.  I just couldn't take it any more.

Had I succeeded, would my statistic even come close to entering Who's lists?  Think I am alone in this?
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Offline TheWho

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #34 on: December 07, 2007, 02:59:47 PM »
Seems you have not been paying attention.  He is not posting statistics.  It is a matrix with raw numbers.  Each number is traceble to a name.  I looked a few of them up and he is correct.  The kids died while in a TBS or wilderness program.
I dont see where the error is?  If there were names to be added someone would have posted them.  If you know of any post them and let the readers see the error.
I looked on some of the other web sites, Ciaca(?) and his list agrees with the names they have also.
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Offline Anonymous

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #35 on: December 07, 2007, 03:12:43 PM »
Of course since all this bullshit is really just misdirection it's important to come back to the actual topic every now and again.

This kid had violent fantasies before being sent away for years. Whether he would have acted on them is unknowable. The fact is that after he did get shipped off to "private residential treatment centers" and was released, he suffered an emotional downturn and started killing people.

If they couldn't stop him from being a psychopath then why was he there in the first place? Obviously none of them was capable of finding and addressing any real problems he may have had before going in there, and likely introduced new ones.

Of course this is obvious, which is why we have TheWho getting on anonymously to spam pseudo-numerical bullshit.

It's time to ask the question with an answer he doesn't want posted:

What hellholes did this kid end up in?
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Offline TheWho

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #36 on: December 07, 2007, 03:14:14 PM »
Quote
Let's take a case in point: suicide. When are these data points measured? During attendance, or perhaps even within a year of attendance? Think that actually measures the problem?


That is a good example.  When a child commits suicide there is no way of telling what the cause was unless he left a note.  If a child takes his life at a TBS it may be due to something that happened to him/her prior to attending the school, we don’t know.  The only thing we do know is where it occurred.  So data can be collected as to where the events occur i.e. at a TBS, at wilderness, at a public school, at home etc.
This is what is being measured and looked at, where the events occurred not the individual causes.  We would all become millionaires if we could figure out why in every case but we cant.
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Offline Anonymous

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #37 on: December 07, 2007, 03:25:06 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Seems you have not been paying attention.  He is not posting statistics.  It is a matrix with raw numbers.  Each number is traceble to a name.  I looked a few of them up and he is correct.  The kids died while in a TBS or wilderness program.
I dont see where the error is?  If there were names to be added someone would have posted them.  If you know of any post them and let the readers see the error.
I looked on some of the other web sites, Ciaca(?) and his list agrees with the names they have also.


Shut up Who.
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Offline TheWho

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #38 on: December 07, 2007, 03:32:53 PM »
Wow, you guys are still trying to poke holes in the matrix.  When will you learn that the tables are just raw data.  Each data point is traceble back to a verified point in time and the national numbers are run by the NCES.
None of it is my opinion...it is what it is, no one can change the facts.

Different subject:


someone stated:
Quote
If they couldn't stop him from being a psychopath then why was he there in the first place? Obviously none of them was capable of finding and addressing any real problems he may have had before going in there, and likely introduced new ones.


No one really knows how successful they will be or predict the outcome of any therapy.  The child needed help and it seems the courts were intent on getting him the help he needed.  Were they successful?  Doesn’t seem so in his case.



...
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Offline Anonymous

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #39 on: December 07, 2007, 03:45:14 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Look. Even if TheWho's numbers were real (they are not), the data would still be bogus. Measurements that would in any way, shape, or form actually be significantly relevant just aren't being done.

Point is, The Who, that your raw data is meaningless.  It doesn't reflect the effects these places have on kids.
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Offline TheWho

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #40 on: December 07, 2007, 03:55:44 PM »
Quote from: ""Guest""
Quote from: ""Guest""
Look. Even if TheWho's numbers were real (they are not), the data would still be bogus. Measurements that would in any way, shape, or form actually be significantly relevant just aren't being done.
Point is, The Who, that your raw data is meaningless.  It doesn't reflect the effects these places have on kids.


I'll bite...Well, it has meaning, but not for you.  You see many parents have kids at-risk who they feel may not live out the year because of their life style.  Many here at fornits tell them that the schools will harm their kids and/or are ineffective.  This small piece of information shows that the kids will be kept out of harms way while they are attending the TBS or wilderness…. Further pieces may show that they are turned around and placed on a safer path.

I wouldn’t try to read that much into it.
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Offline Ursus

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #41 on: December 07, 2007, 07:50:24 PM »
Published Friday  |  December 7, 2007
HHS says it did its best to treat Hawkins
BY MARTHA STODDARD AND KARYN SPENCER  |  WORLD-HERALD BUREAU


Robert Hawkins

LINCOLN — Nebraska spent more than $265,000 on services to help Robert Hawkins with psychiatric problems and addictions in his four years as a state ward.

Hawkins received care at several residential treatment centers, a group home and an agency-based foster home, children and family services director Todd Landry said Thursday.

"I believe all appropriate services were provided when needed and for as long as needed," he said. "Based on our review, this tragedy was not a failure of the system to provide appropriate quality services for a youth who needed it."

The emotionally troubled high school dropout, responsible for Wednesday's killing spree at Omaha's Westroads Mall, lost his job earlier in the day and lost his girlfriend in the past two weeks, friends said.

"I'm going to be famous now," he wrote in a suicide note before the shooting, in which he killed eight people before shooting himself.

Records from Sarpy and Washington County Courts detail Hawkins' troubled childhood.

Hawkins was a foster child for about four years. Sarpy County Juvenile Court Judge Robert O'Neal handled the case.

Hawkins was in the custody of his father, Ronald, in La Vista, when he became a foster child in 2002. Hawkins' parents divorced when he was 3.

Hawkins had been hospitalized twice for psychiatric problems before being admitted May 18, 2002, to Piney Ridge Center in Waynesville, Mo., for "homicidal threats he made to his stepmother."

He had been diagnosed with an unspecified mood disorder — a term often used when problems have been identified, but a specific diagnosis such as bipolar disorder or depression hasn't been developed.

Hawkins' diagnosis also included attention deficit disorder and oppositional defiant disorder, which is a persistent pattern of defying authority.

Four months later, he was made a state ward because his health insurance would not pay for continued care. The center's staff said he should not be released.

He stayed at the Missouri facility until February 2003. He then moved to a Cooper Village residential treatment center and later a group home.

In 2003, while living at Cooper Village, Hawkins told police that his roommate grabbed his crotch and offered to perform oral sex on him. Another time, the roommate punched him, he said.

The roommate was arrested on suspicion of misdemeanor assault and sexual misconduct but was never charged.

Hawkins later lived with foster mother Marty Glass in her home near the Douglas-Washington County line.

Her son, Ben Glass, 31, remembered Hawkins as an average kid who enjoyed video games. With his curly brown hair and big glasses, Hawkins had kind of a "nerdy" look, Ben Glass said.

"He was a quiet kid," he said.

Hawkins got into legal trouble while in foster care.

Hawkins was charged in Sarpy County Juvenile Court with third-degree assault in connection with an October 2003 fight at Papillion-La Vista High School and with unlawful tobacco use by a minor at the school in September 2004.

He got into trouble several times in Washington County in 2005 when he lived with Glass.

Hawkins was charged in March 2005 with possession of marijuana with intent to deliver. The case was sent to Sarpy County to handle along with the pending foster-care case.

Judge O'Neal ordered Hawkins to abstain from alcohol and drugs; complete chemical dependency and mental health treatment through a day treatment program at Cooper Village; and attend Alcoholics or Narcotics Anonymous once a week.

Hawkins was ticketed Oct. 7, 2005, for disorderly conduct after getting in a fight near Fort Calhoun High School, which he attended while living with Glass. He later was arrested for not paying the $100 fine.

He later was charged with possession of marijuana with intent to deliver and two counts of contributing to the delinquency of minors, ages 12 and 14, on Oct. 24, 2005. Those charges later were dismissed.

Sheriff Mike Robinson said one of the cases involved Hawkins selling marijuana to other teens at Fort Calhoun High School. School personnel notified authorities.

Hawkins returned to his father's home in December 2005 and received services from Addiction and Behavioral Services of Omaha.

Hawkins' mother, Maribel Rodriguez, sought visits with her son in July 2005. She had not had contact with him for 2½ years.

Hawkins attended Papillion-La Vista High School until dropping out in March 2006.

Soon after, the judge ordered him to get his GED and work 20 hours a week. A friend said Hawkins got his GED.

Hawkins remained a state ward based on the drug case, giving Health and Human Services the ability to monitor his progress and provide services.

The court order terminated custody Aug. 21, 2006, three months after his 18th birthday, "as an unsuccessful completion of the conditions and the child is non-amenable to further services of the court."

Landry said that phrase could mean a variety of things, from Hawkins repeatedly testing positive for drugs and alcohol to refusing to complete 50 hours of court-ordered community service.

The decision was based on an agreement between HHS, the treatment provider, the therapist, the court and Hawkins' father, Landry said.

"The most appropriate thing for this youth was the closure of the case," Landry said.

Landry said he could not release information beyond what was contained in public court records.

Landry said department officials will continue looking at the case to see whether they can learn anything useful for the future.

Hawkins, 5-foot-7 and 128 pounds, moved in with his friend Will's family in August 2006, said Will's mother, Debora Maruca.

The boys liked to target- and skeet-shoot at her family's cabin.

The night before the shooting, Hawkins and her sons showed Maruca an AK-47-style rifle. Maruca thought the rifle looked too old to work.

Hawkins had been hopping between the homes of friends when Maruca offered to let him move in with her family in the Quail Creek subdivision in Bellevue.

"He was like a lost pound puppy nobody wanted," she said.

The first few months, Hawkins seemed nervous and withdrawn, sometimes curling into a fetal position.

He was mannerly, expressing appreciation and asking how her day had been.

She thought his life had started to come together.

Hawkins was earning about $800 a month working at a nearby McDonald's and had started to pay rent in an effort to become more responsible.

He had gotten his driver's license in July, and on Nov. 28, he registered a 1995 green Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo.

"I really thought he was doing better," she said. "He had a little spark in his eye."

Then in the past two weeks, he broke up with his girlfriend.

He was ticketed Nov. 24 on suspicion of contributing to the delinquency of a minor and two alcohol charges.

About 1 p.m. Wednesday, an upset Hawkins called Maruca's son, and Maruca got on the line.

Hawkins thanked the family members for everything they had done for him. He said the family wouldn't have to worry about him anymore.

Maruca asked if he had been fired from his job.

He said he had. He said he had been accused of stealing $17 from his till. (McDonald's management has declined to comment.)

They told him, Robbie, it's not that bad. Just come home. It'll be OK, Maruca said.

"He must have felt like everything he touched turned to crap," she said.

World-Herald staff writers Leia Baez, Christopher Burbach, Kevin Cole, John Ferak, Nancy Gaarder, Cindy Gonzalez, Jeffrey Robb, Michaela Saunders and Tom Shaw contributed to this report.
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Offline Ursus

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #42 on: December 07, 2007, 08:05:16 PM »
Published Thursday  |  December 6, 2007
In the end, Hawkins made good on threats
BY KARYN SPENCER  |  WORLD-HERALD STAFF WRITER

Mall gunman Robbie Hawkins had threatened to kill people as long as five years ago and as recently as two weeks ago.

The day after he turned 14, Hawkins was sent to a group home after threatening to kill his stepmother, court records show.

Two weeks ago, he threatened to kill a 16-year-old girl and her family after accusing her of stealing things from his car, the girl said today.

"He said, 'I'm going to kill you, I am going to kill your family and I'm going to burn your house down,'" she said.

The girl, a neighbor, shrugged off the threat because Hawkins was known for "shooting his mouth off."

"I never really thought that he would follow through with something like this," she said.

Interviews and court records from Sarpy and Washington County courts detail the troubled childhood of the 19-year-old responsible for Wednesday's killing spree at the Westroads Mall.

Hawkins was a foster child through Sarpy County Juvenile Court for about four years. Judge Robert O'Neal handled the case.

Hawkins was in the custody of his father, Ronald, in LaVista, when he became a foster child in 2002. Hawkins' parents divorced when he was 3.

Hawkins had been hospitalized twice for psychiatric problems before being admitted on May 18, 2002, to Piney Ridge Center in Waynesville, Mo., for "homicidal threats he made to his stepmother."

At the time, he had been diagnosed with an unspecified mood disorder — a term often used when problems have been identified but a specific diagnosis such as bipolar disorder or depression hasn't been developed.

Hawkins' diagnosis also included attention deficit disorder and oppositional defiant disorder, which is a persistent pattern of defying authority.

Four months later, he was made a state ward because his health insurance would not pay to continue his care. The center's staff said he should not be released.

He stayed at the Missouri facility for at least another month before moving to group homes, including several Cooper Village facilities, and at least one foster home in Omaha.

In 2003, while living at Cooper Village, Hawkins told police that his roommate grabbed his crotch and offered to perform oral sex on him. Another time, the roommate punched him several times, he said.

The roommate was arrested on suspicion of misdemeanor assault and sexual misconduct but was never charged.

Hawkins later lived with foster mother Marty Glass in her home near the Douglas-Washington County line.

Her son, Ben Glass, 31, remembered Hawkins as an average kid who enjoyed video games. "He was a quiet kid," Ben Glass said.

While in foster care, Hawkins got into legal trouble.

Hawkins was charged in Sarpy County Juvenile Court with third-degree assault in connection with an October 2003 fight at Papillion-La Vista High School and with unlawful tobacco use by a minor at the school in September 2004.

He was ordered to serve 50 hours of community service.

He got into trouble several times in Washington County in 2005 when he lived with Glass.

Hawkins was charged in March 2005 with possession of marijuana with intent to deliver. The case was sent to Sarpy County to handle along with the pending foster-care case.

Judge O'Neal ordered Hawkins to abstain from alcohol and drugs; complete chemical dependency and mental health treatment through a day treatment program at Cooper Village; and attend Alcoholics or Narcotics Anonymous nce a week.

Hawkins was ticketed Oct. 7, 2005, for disorderly conduct after getting in a fight near the school in Fort Calhoun. He later was arrested for not paying the $100 fine.

He later was charged with possession of marijuana with intent to deliver and two counts of contributing to the delinquency of minors, ages 12 and 14, on Oct. 24, 2005. Those charges later were dismissed.

In March 2006, Hawkins dropped out of Papillion-La Vista High School, Principal Jim Glover said.

Hawkins was disciplined for skipping classes but never showed anger toward the staff or students, Glover said. "He was pretty low-key, laid-back," he said.

Soon after Hawkins dropped out, the judge ordered him to get his GED and work 20 hours a week. A friend said Hawkins got his GED.

Hawkins' mother, Maribel Rodriguez, sought visits with her son in July 2005. She had not had contact with him for 2 1/2 years.

The juvenile court's jurisdiction ended in August 2006.

Earlier this year, Hawkins' father asked for help from neighbor John Hubbard, a captain with the Douglas County Department of Corrections. Ronald Hawkins asked if Hubbard would take the youth on a tour of the jail to help set him straight.

Hubbard said the jail has a policy against such tours.

Just after Hawkins' court cases ended last year, he moved in with his friend Will's family in the Quail Creek subdivision in Bellevue, said Will's mother, Debora Maruca. She said Hawkins had been hopping between friends' homes.

"He was like a lost pound puppy nobody wanted," she said.

The night before the shooting, Hawkins and her sons showed Maruca an AK-47-style rifle. Previous reports from police and Maruca identified the gun as an SKS semiautomatic military rifle.

She didn't think much of it — it looked too old to work. The boys liked to target- and skeet-shoot at her family's cabin.

Hawkins took the weapon to the mall Wednesday afternoon.

"I think, 'Why didn't I do something?" Maruca said. "What could I have done?'"

During his first few months with the family, Hawkins seemed nervous and withdrawn, sometimes curling into a fetal position.

He was mannerly, expressing appreciation and asking how her day had been.

"We were eating like vultures," she said, "and he's saying, 'Please pass this,' and thanking me for every meal.'"

She thought his life had started to come together.


Hawkins was earning about $800 a month working at this nearby McDonald's.

Hawkins was earning about $800 a month working at a nearby McDonald's restaurant and had started to pay rent.

He had gotten his driver's license in July, and on Nov. 28 he registered a 1995 green Jeep Grand Cherokee Laredo.

"I really thought he was doing better," Maruca said. "He had a little spark in his eye."

Then in the past two weeks, Hawkins broke up with his girlfriend.

He was ticketed Nov. 24 in Sarpy County on suspicion of contributing to the delinquency of a minor and two alcohol charges.

About 1 p.m. Wednesday, an upset Hawkins called Maruca's son, and Maruca got on the line.

Hawkins thanked the family members for everything they had done for him. He said the family wouldn't have to worry about him any more.

She asked if he had been fired. He said he had.

He said he had been accused of stealing $17 from his till. McDonald's management has declined to comment about his employment.

They told him, Robbie, it's not that bad. Just come home. It'll be OK, Maruca said.

"He must have felt like everything he touched turned to crap," she said.

After the call, they checked his bedroom and found his note, which said things like, "I'm a piece of shit, but I'm going to be famous now."

They had gotten a call like this from him once before and worried he was going to commit suicide. They didn't think he would hurt anyone else.

Maruca's son Will went looking for Hawkins. Maruca called Hawkins' mother, who picked up the note and took it to the Sarpy County Sheriff's Office.

Maruca, not knowing what else to do, went to work. She is a nurse at the Nebraska Medical Center.

There she heard news reports of the mall shooting.

"I just got this sick feeling," she said. "I thought, 'Oh, my God, I hope this is not Robbie.'"

When Hawkins' mother arrived at the Sheriff's Office, she did not know about the mall shooting that had occurred about 30 minutes earlier, Capt. Rolly Yost said.

Twenty to 40 minutes before the shooting, an ex-girlfriend of Hawkins received a text message from him describing his plan, according to a 16-year-old girl who had been threatened in the past.

"He said that he wanted to die," she said. "'I just want to shoot a whole lot of people at the mall and kill myself.'"

Maruca said she had no idea why Hawkins picked Von Maur.

"They're completely innocent victims," she said of those he shot. "He had no connection."

Wednesday night, authorities searched the homes of Maruca and Hawkins' mother in Bellevue for evidence and possible explanations.

Among the news media trucks and split-level homes in her hilly subdivision, Maruca and a woman hugged and sobbed.

"That was Robbie," she said.

"I can't believe it," they kept telling each other.

"I can't f-ing believe it."

World-Herald staff writers Leia Baez, Christopher Burbach, Kevin Cole, John Ferak, Nancy Gaarder, Cindy Gonzalez, Paul Hammel, Jeffrey Robb, Michaela Saunders and Tom Shaw contributed to this report.
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Offline TheWho

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #43 on: December 07, 2007, 08:16:23 PM »
Thanks for posting that Ursus……That is really sad, it looked like things were finally getting better for him… then quickly lost his girlfriend, his job and along with his psychiatric problems he just went downhill…



...
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Offline Anonymous

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Robert A. Hawkins/ mall shooting/Thayer Learning Center?
« Reply #44 on: December 07, 2007, 08:44:25 PM »
Quote from: ""TheWho""
Thanks for posting that Ursus……That is really sad, it looked like things were finally getting better for him… then quickly lost his girlfriend, his job and along with his psychiatric problems he just went downhill…



...


can someone shoot this monster? In or out of the mall?
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