Fornits

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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way.
What about:
1. NDA's
2. No way out
3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program"
4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change?
5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?

Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?

Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now.
See ya.

Quote from: "heretik"

The "WE" was a statement for you and I. Meaning why would Anne and heretik want these workshops going on. No I am not  a employee. I know several people that would be very interested in your comments you made here today.
I was wondering if I could get the information I asked for, Anne.

Being blessed with an amazing husband is wonderful, Salute!! as I think you know is not the rule but the exception. Men want to change that, more and more men are saying every day, how can I be a better husband, Dad, friend ect....

I'll try and find out what you're asking for.  Some of the conversations were online and two of them just kinda happened when I was out having drinks with a few friends.  Some guy brought it up and we started talking about it, but I don't recall where these workshops (that might not even be the correct term, more so my lack of a better one but it did include the sweatlodge thing) took place, or if the guy even mentioned it.

Thank you Anne. I have noticed your posts in other threads especially the thread concerning "compliance", you write a compelling story. (I know off topic, just wanted to say.)
Back to the topic and your response. Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).
I know this probably sounds weird Anne but this worked for me. Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.

Till later.

Quote from: "heretik"

So back to my point they are either extremely uneducated, in denial/delusional or they believe what they are doing/practicing is working.

All of the above.  Usually the program owners/directors are clued in to the fact that it's basically a scam, but even some of those were once staff and simply believe they have the one true way to help kids.  As to how they can implement such elaborate tactics without knowing what they're doing?  They learned from predecessors who designed the system.  Most programs today are basically cult copycats.  They might not have designed (or even understand) the thought reform system/processes, but they implement what they were taught and from their perspective, it "works".  It does provide dramatic results while the participant is in the program.  It's a dramatic illusion for the staff as well.

I got caught up in Awakes answer to this other poster that I neglected to respond to your comments. Not that I'm sure you were holding your breath.
Thanks for your direct summation of what I was driving at here. It can be very confusing for someone not educated on treatment programs to understand the elaborate processes of a everyday program.
I wonder if the employees were trained properly and had experience would these thought reform processes still provide a viable education for the participant. Does thought reform work, is it a suitable model, can we expect positive results if instituted properly.
A question here that has crossed my mind, it goes along with the comment I made concerning work environments, is there not thought reform happening in practically all work,educational and family settings to a greater or lesser degree.
I am not bringing this up to rationalize the atrocities going on in programs people here have talked about, just trying to understand how it all transpires.
I have heard words spoke here concerning re-education, thought reform and others I can't remember right now and I am trying to understand.
I am reading more and I have to say that sitting in a chair or standing in front of a room is a hell of a way to be re-educated. Not very subtle. I get this type of overt thought reform also to include the violent yelling at one another during groups and the emasculation you received by your peers while experiencing a "haircut".
I want to get at the more subtle reformation of the mind that went on/goes on in a program. How is this happening.

heretik: it wasn't done tongue in cheek or even hilariously. It was coupled with barrages of humilations, badgering, and screaming.

I am not sure where everyone is taking this posting. What I would suggest is just accept the post as it was intended and stop analyzing the beJesus out of it. Sigh.....

Quote

He takes responsibility for himself and is also willing to be his brother's keeper.

http://www.secretprisonsforteens.dk/for ... r_propheet

The Brothers Keeper propheet

Lugs:  Part of the ice breaker in the Brother's Keeper propheet. A student is required to come up with a short performance that makes fun of themselves, and act it out for the entire peer group. This is done repeatedly, since every time a new member of the peer group comes up with and performs their "lug", all of the previous students who have already come up with theirs have to do it again. (Similar structure to the "12 days of Christmas" song.) It could also simply mean the act of a staff member imitating you and making fun of how you behave.  

The Circle: An exercise in the brother's keeper propheet. Two students are singled out from the rest of the peer group. These students are normally the omegas of the group, (i.e. the bottom of the pecking order) and as such, command the least respect. The rest of the peer group is instructed to close ranks and form a circle, with everyone facing inside and linking arms. The two ostracized students are then required to try to break into the circle any way they can, while the rest of the peer group has to try to keep them from getting inside. The purpose was to provide a metaphor for 1. How you keep people on the outside every day. and

2. How you keep yourself on the outside every day.  

Turning your back:  An exercise from the brother's keeper. Students are paired up and take turns turning their back on each other.  

Pushing away  An exercise from the brother's keeper. Students are paired up and take turns shoving each other. The exercise was supposed to signify how you push people away every day.

All this means is to love and care for your brother. This is not a LGAT/Propheet. If it takes performing a Propheet or LGAT to love and care for your brother, well I hope you succeed.

I've been through lots of things and you know what? What it comes down to is pretty simple. People fight the simple.  If you are alone and not responsible for anyone but yourself, just live your life how you see fit and don't hurt anyone. You can be free AND responsible and honest.  If you are responsible for others, it is more work. It can be a struggle sometimes.  Accept it and grow the fuck up.

People know what they should be doing; they just don't want to admit it. Because then you have to step up to the plate.

And, again: Why would a program need NDA's and encounter groups? No "support" group should require an NDA. (Non disclosure agreement)

But as I've said: I don't care what consenting adults do as long as they "first, do no harm." But obviously, some of these groups are scams.  It's not terrible for unfulfilled men to have access to the pros and the cons before they drop their bucks and possibly their dignity along with their clothing.  If it turns out great, and the bad reviews are unfounded, then no harm, no foul. But it is good to be have information and a few quick tips in case your weekend veers toward the cautionary tales.

Just like you'd look up reviews for a car, an appliance, or a trip.

I see you did not want to answer the questions. Alright you don't have to. I think you see what I mean though, concerning men.
Why are men dropping their clothing, why is being naked such a issue here, are you not comfortable in your nakedness. Do you not find your disrobed body beautiful. There is no shame attached to being naked unless you place it there. It does not really make a difference what society/western culture has taught you. To much American culture is tied to the body (the look, appeal ect..) it is shallow.
Why are we having a issue with adult consenting men inviting in new challenges. There is more information about the weekend then is being let on here. Men are not going into this weekend blind, without a level of knowledge concerning what they may face.
One other point. I am puzzled by the similarities being placed on MKP by the three of you. I know the three of you have first hand knowledge of programs, especially the ones you attended. Yet I have not read where any of you have ever attended a workshop for men or the equivalent for women. Now, from reading your prior posts I am under the assumption that because you went through a program and maybe some of the exercises preformed at the workshop resemble your LGAT's or group encounters, you have a unique perception. Ursus has tied Hyde School into MKP and has made a determination that this has influence over Hyde School in some way. I am not sure your perception is accurate, we are adults, most of us are of ages around 40-50, with a small percentage in their late 20's and 30's.
I can understand the anger coming from men after the workshop, especially the men that had a ruff time and really felt MKP was not for them. The weekend workshop, I will not lie is one tough in your face constantly demanding weekend. Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal.
Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl:  only kidding but close.
Just think guys if you had never been introduced to any kind of dynamic like this before in your life, at least you three have the benefit of experiencing something close but it is not close enough. In this case you have a choice go further or stop, yes there are people pushing you, that is part of life but for once in their life for many men they experince their limits. It is awesome.
I'll get back.

The New Macho

He cleans up after himself.
He cleans up the planet.
He is a role model for young men.
He is rigorously honest and fiercely optimistic.

He holds himself accountable.
He knows what he feels.
He knows how to cry and he lets it go.
He knows how to rage without hurting others.
He knows how to fear and how to keep moving.
He seeks self-mastery.

He's let go of childish shame.
He feels guilty when he's done something wrong.
He is kind to men, kind to women, kind to children.
He teaches others how to be kind.
He says he's sorry.

He stopped blaming women or his parents or men for his pain years ago.
He stopped letting his defenses ruin his relationships.
He stopped letting his penis run his life.
He has enough self respect to tell the truth.
He creates intimacy and trust with his actions.
He has men that he trusts and that he turns to for support.
He knows how to roll with it.
He knows how to make it happen.
He is disciplined when he needs to be.
He is flexible when he needs to be.
He knows how to listen from the core of his being.

He's not afraid to get dirty.
He's ready to confront his own limitations.
He has high expectations for himself and for those he connects with.
He looks for ways to serve others.
He knows he is an individual.
He knows that we are all one.
He knows he is an animal and a part of nature.
He knows his spirit and his connection to something greater.

He knows that the future generations are watching his actions.
He builds communities where people are respected and valued.
He takes responsibility for himself and is also willing to be his brother's keeper.

He knows his higher purpose.
He loves with fierceness.
He laughs with abandon, because he gets the joke.

This is the Mature Masculine - it is the redefinition of masculinity for the 21st century. By no means is this list complete. You are welcome to come and add your gifts to this community. - Boysen Hodgson

I believe this was intended for insight and maybe testimony. I am sorry it has incited so much rancor amongst the few.