Re: HAPA

[Samara]

Uh, Heretik, I don't care if people want to hang out naked. My post is not remotely anti-nudity.  !!!! ? You are really making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I simply said "buyer beware about group psychodynamics." Big Deal.

And another thing: Who were you before Heretik, because I have a feeling this is a new name, same shit scenario.

[heretik]

Uh, Heretik, I don't care if people want to hang out naked. My post is not remotely anti-nudity.  !!!! ? You are really making a mountain out of a molehill here.

I simply said "buyer beware about group psychodynamics." Big Deal.

And another thing: Who were you before Heretik, because I have a feeling this is a new name, same shit scenario.

Nope! I have no idea what your talking about here with this last comment or why it was even necessary. Yes, I have known a couple of people who have posted here but what does that have to do with me. As far as I know they are gone, I am here.
I hope we can have mutual respect for one another, I see that is not always at a premium here.

I would rather talk about the topic. You mentioned group dynamics which is a interesting subject. Would you please elaborate more on this (in so far as it deals with the MKP weekend workshop) when you have a chance.
If by chance you have not the knowledge concerning the MKP weekend can you just elaborate anyway on what you may be able to gather is going on.
Anne and yourself have made several comments in your recent posts and it has sparked questions for me. This is why I wrote about my concerns for your comments about men nudity.

Thanks, nice talking with you Samara.

[Samara]

I was being irreverent about the naked stuff. I don't care about all that.

I was referring to the article by Mitchelson.  The NDA's and psychodramas.  The fact that a group would require secrecy raises red flags for the obvious reasons. I have not been a member of this group. To be honest, I'm not a group membership kind of gal. (Although I really should sign up for Costco.)  I've simply never subscribed to any  set ideology and tend to prefer direct, no BS experiences over LGAT experentials. I just know I would not participate in anything that required me to give up autonomy, subscribe to group think, unchallenged,  sign NDA's and forfeit my own safe mode of communication.  I also could never follow blindly  some guru-leader.  

But, if you received something of value from MK, by all means, share. I don't know much about it.

[heretik]

I was being irreverent about the naked stuff. I don't care about all that.

I was referring to the article by Mitchelson.  The NDA's and psychodramas.  The fact that a group would require secrecy raises red flags for the obvious reasons. I have not been a member of this group. To be honest, I'm not a group membership kind of gal. (Although I really should sign up for Costco.)  I've simply never subscribed to any  set ideology and tend to prefer direct, no BS experiences over LGAT experentials. I just know I would not participate in anything that required me to give up autonomy, subscribe to group think, unchallenged,  sign NDA's and forfeit my own safe mode of communication.  I also could never follow blindly  some guru-leader.  

But, if you received something of value from MK, by all means, share. I don't know much about it.

Hey, thanks for commenting. I am new to this so by all means if I ask to many questions tell me. I am not afraid to answer questions myself. MK, is and was for me a educational experience, I was stuck in a big way and that weekend help with that. There was maybe 45 men of which I knew personally (5), knew off (15) and the rest were friends or close acquaintances of everyone. So it was a close intimate weekend. I know for a fact that is not the experience 95% have.
I will comment more on this tomorrow, I am tired and have a throbbing headache.
take care...

[Anne Bonney]

The "WE" was a statement for you and I. Meaning why would Anne and heretik want these workshops going on. No I am not  a employee. I know several people that would be very interested in your comments you made here today.
I was wondering if I could get the information I asked for, Anne.

Being blessed with an amazing husband is wonderful, Salute!! as I think you know is not the rule but the exception. Men want to change that, more and more men are saying every day, how can I be a better husband, Dad, friend ect....

I'll try and find out what you're asking for.  Some of the conversations were online and two of them just kinda happened when I was out having drinks with a few friends.  Some guy brought it up and we started talking about it, but I don't recall where these workshops (that might not even be the correct term, more so my lack of a better one but it did include the sweatlodge thing) took place, or if the guy even mentioned it.

[heretik]

The "WE" was a statement for you and I. Meaning why would Anne and heretik want these workshops going on. No I am not  a employee. I know several people that would be very interested in your comments you made here today.
I was wondering if I could get the information I asked for, Anne.

Being blessed with an amazing husband is wonderful, Salute!! as I think you know is not the rule but the exception. Men want to change that, more and more men are saying every day, how can I be a better husband, Dad, friend ect....

I'll try and find out what you're asking for.  Some of the conversations were online and two of them just kinda happened when I was out having drinks with a few friends.  Some guy brought it up and we started talking about it, but I don't recall where these workshops (that might not even be the correct term, more so my lack of a better one but it did include the sweatlodge thing) took place, or if the guy even mentioned it.

Thank you Anne. I have noticed your posts in other threads especially the thread concerning "compliance", you write a compelling story. (I know off topic, just wanted to say.)
Back to the topic and your response. Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).
I know this probably sounds weird Anne but this worked for me. Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.

Till later.

[Samara]

Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way.
What about:
1. NDA's
2. No way out
3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program"
4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change?
5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?

Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?

[heretik]

Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way.
What about:
1. NDA's
2. No way out
3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program"
4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change?
5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?

Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?

Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now.
See ya.

[Ursus]

Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way.
What about:
1. NDA's
2. No way out
3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program"
4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change?
5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?

Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?

Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now.
See ya.

Yes yes. Better do some more fact-checking first ... with some of yer "warrior" friends who are a lil more in the know, eh?

Speaking of spin...

Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).

Hundreds??!! Over what period of time? Even for, say, a period of a decade, "hundreds" translates into at least twenty per year, which is generally not the pace opted for when it comes to ruminating on "deep spiritual insights," let alone experiencing "6 hour rolfing massages" with subsequent delusions of levitation as a bonus.

That is... unless you're addicted to it! Are you SURE your electrolytes are still in balance??!    Altered states can be achieved through a variety of ways and means, not necessarily dependent on the imbibing of narcotic substances...

Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal.
Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl: only kidding but close.

[Ursus]

Along similar lines of inquiry...

Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.
Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness. This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's, I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.

Gee. I had always understood LGAT to stand for Large Group Awareness Training... Could you possibly explain to me how the Mankind Project equates "training" with "therapy?"

Moreover, could you go into a lil more depth about the so-called therapeutic benefits? Do you believe that MKP considers their NWTA or TAW to confer benefits or insights analogous to those obtained through therapy, as your post above states vis a vis your own experience?

[Anne Bonney]

Thank you Anne. I have noticed your posts in other threads especially the thread concerning "compliance", you write a compelling story. (I know off topic, just wanted to say.)

It's not that far off topic.  There are a lot of similarities in NWT and the TTI.

Back to the topic and your response. Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).

That sounds vaguely familiar....kinda like those glossy brochures that programs put out.

I know this probably sounds weird Anne but this worked for me. Sitting in some Psychiatrist's office just wasn't working for me, I needed to be connected holistically. The natural earth made this possible for me.

I can understand that.  Psychiatry didn't really do anything for me either.  The natural Earth that you speak of sounds kinda like Wicca.

Large Group Awarness Therapy can be therapeutic in so far as serving to restore good health, being healthy and promoting recovery from unhappiness.

LGAT does not stand for Large Group Awareness "Therapy".  It stand for Large Group Awareness Training.  


 

This would be the LGAT's I have encountered in workshops I support. Yes MKP does have aggressive in your face LGAT's,

Like the TTI.....break 'em down in order to build 'em up.

I am not interested in those particularly. They just don't appeal to me because of my past issues, so I would not ascribe to them but I also can't say they don't work for others. They do, I have witnessed this.

Sound familiar to anyone??

[Whooter]

My wife went through EST in the early 1980’s.  I watched her transform over the period of a long weekend (she was sworn to secrecy but gave me some bits for conversation) and then the dog and pony show at the end where we were all invited to watch.  The authority figure pulled the strings.  You could tell the people who went through the process by the energy that they possessed.  They stared at the stage like they were waiting for another dose of heroin.  It was something I had never seen before or since.

Here is the way I would describe its path to success:

You get a few hundred people in a room and lock the doors with no bathroom breaks.  Its like a carnival ride.

We are all wired to trust authority figures and we react very well to stimulation from our environment and those around us.  You put in a few plants who know the right answers and how to respond, the people around them watch and learn as the plants  are rewarded for their behavior.  We are social creatures so everyone wants a piece eventually and they compete for attention.  Extreme emotions are created which releases endorphins which can feel as good as heroin when your body is stressed.  At this point you have an authority figure who could talk you into crossing a street in heavy traffic without looking and just trust him totally.  You are peeled open and exposed and anyone in the authority position can place new thoughts in your brain.  The key is to keep the pace so high that your emotions override your rationale and there is not time for you to engage in critical thinking or rejection.

LGAT’s can be dangerous and misunderstood as brainwashing but they can also be very rewarding and inspiring from what I have read.



...

[Anne Bonney]

You get a few hundred people in a room and lock the doors with no bathroom breaks.  Its like a carnival ride.

We are all wired to trust authority figures and we react very well to stimulation from our environment and those around us.  You put in a few plants who know the right answers and how to respond, the people around them watch and learn as the plants  are rewarded for their behavior.  We are social creatures so everyone wants a piece eventually and they compete for attention.  Extreme emotions are created which releases endorphins which can feel as good as heroin when your body is stressed.  At this point you have an authority figure who could talk you into crossing a street in heavy traffic without looking and just trust him totally.  You are peeled open and exposed and anyone in the authority position can place new thoughts in your brain.  The key is to keep the pace so high that your emotions override your rationale and there is not time for you to engage in critical thinking or rejection.

You've just described a good bit of how programs "work".

[heretik]

Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way.
What about:
1. NDA's
2. No way out
3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program"
4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change?
5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?

Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you? Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?

Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now.
See ya.

Yes yes. Better do some more fact-checking first ... with some of yer "warrior" friends who are a lil more in the know, eh?

Speaking of spin...

Yes, the weekend does have a "sweat" towards the end. You are asked to bring in the burdens of others, the pain of others and to ask, "mother earth" to help you with this pain you carry for others. I at first had a hard time understanding this concept, primarily because I came to each of my first 10 sweats with so much of my own pain but as time moved and my pain subsided I began to think of others and there burdens. I wanted to help in whatever way I could, some who I loved, I wanted to carry there pain with them. I became more intimate with people and nature through these sweats (which now are literally in the hundreds).

Hundreds??!! Over what period of time? Even for, say, a period of a decade, "hundreds" translates into at least twenty per year, which is generally not the pace opted for when it comes to ruminating on "deep spiritual insights," let alone experiencing "6 hour rolfing massages" with subsequent delusions of levitation as a bonus.

That is... unless you're addicted to it! Are you SURE your electrolytes are still in balance??!    Altered states can be achieved through a variety of ways and means, not necessarily dependent on the imbibing of narcotic substances...

Yes, people are told about the weekend as much as you can but still you really can not explain enough to prepare one for this weekend. Like I said it is brutal.
Then you come out the other end and you feel weightless, like a 6 hour rolfing massage you levitate after your done. Have you ever ran a marathon, biked long distance, worked incredibly long hours to get a project done, stayed up night after night with a sick baby, well then you know. Try all of this in a weekend.... :rofl: only kidding but close.

Listen I am not sure why you are acting in this manner but I see no need to talk to me like this. I did not know that my word would be subjected to such inquiry. I have no need to lie or embellish. I received a email/Pm the other night, I have noticed you are also a moderator. Let me make myself clear please, I am not this person. So please stop with the subtle sarcasm, if you have a question just ask.  
Let me explain myself a little better, my first sweat I did was at a Nordic Lodge with a Finnish family. Some people would confuse this to a steam room but in fact they were carrying out a Indian ritual, I was 14 years old, that was over 40 years ago. I said hundreds Ursus, I believe I was being moderate. It is not uncommon for people to sweat on a weekly bases, which would then put the number at 52 per year x 10 years, that would be hundreds. I have been sweating for 40 years with a average of 30 times a year, some years less then others.  
Addiction to sweating well if this is how you choose to see it, I would say fine. I could find more destructive venues to be hung up on.

[heretik]

Heretik: Just curious about the following - not in a rancorous way.
What about:
1. NDA's

I did not sign any myself personally nor am I familiar with anyone else signing one. They did ask verbally for me not to tell anyone what happened at the weekend that would be coming in the future. I did not honor this agreement. I have a big mouth.

2. No way out

Not sure what you mean? I always felt I could leave and or get out.

3. Blind adherence to the weekend "program"

Yes there was a certain blind adherence because I really did not know what was coming next. So I just believed in my friends that I was safe. Did I feel totally controlled by the leaders to the point of being intimidated to adhere, no.
Did I feel intimidated at times during the weekend, yes I did. I felt very uncomfortable at moments, almost to the point of being bullied. I stated this to one of the leaders and he toned it down.

4. Does it use ridicule and humiliation to coerce change?

Yes it does in a few of the exercises but nothing more then being in bootcamp in the service. Do I think this is effective, no. I just dealt with it because I was told it would happen. Did I change anything because of this exercise, no.

5. Does it try and force you to accept their interpretation of your reality or past events?

Yes, I do believe there are some leaders that believe they have it all figured out and they have your answer. Do they force this on you, not exactly. Can they be aggressive in there point of view or what they think works, yes.
I found if I stood my ground on with conviction I was respected.

Can you challenge or opt out if you disagree or something just isn't jibing for you?

Challenging is not a option for some of the exercises, you either do it or step out and go home. I found this hard to accept for some. A little rough.

Can you honestly the leader is not some narcissist with Guru Fantasies?

Oh hell, there are some of those there, for sure. I just stayed away from them. They have nothing I want. Not everyone is like that, I would say most are not.

Samara, I will be back later tonight to answer. OK. Have to go for now.
See ya.