Author Topic: aparently, adults want to go to programs too  (Read 27024 times)

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Offline Ursus

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Comments: "Breaking News: Inside accounts of...," #s 76-91
« Reply #270 on: October 12, 2010, 12:23:38 AM »
Comments left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 76-91:


by JRweekend · 11 months ago
    It's Terrible what happened.His behavior seems bizarre.I went to the JR warrior event in 2006. Some highlights I recall are james bragging about selling a program that didn't exist yet and how he made 40k in a day. Lots of pressure to "raise our consciousness" by attending the future events. Of course- the only way to do it was by going. Volunteer staff encouraging the use of your credit card. james announcing the percentage of signups for the "quantum leap" live from the stage. Dorky pictures of himself as a kid with buck teeth and big glasses. I guess the implication is that if you do what he says you can be like him. james also liked people to know about his three homes in Hawaii, Vegas, and CA. All places where there are events BTW.. I think james should stop helping others and get help himself.
by Hippo · 11 months ago
    TO Cassandra:

    This is in regard to your question about women shaving their heads.

    Several years ago, my kids brought home head lice. After numerous unsuccessful attempts with the shampoo and the nit-comb, I ended up cutting most of our hair off. Not quite bald, but close. After I got used to the shock, I realized that I liked it, and I have kept the length (about one inch).

    After reading about James Ray's seminars, I think that the head-shaving would be the only activity that DIDN'T alarm me.

    I went to Lifespring (predecessor to Landmark) back in 1982--it was five days at that time--and I absolutely HATED it. I asked for, and received, a refund. They were quite nasty to me when they realized that I wanted my money back.

    I hope they lock this guy up for the rest of his life.
by Steve · 11 months ago
    This tragedy has caused a media pig pile on James Ray and a sad spillover effect on the law of attraction in general.
    The focus should be the dangers of attempting altered states thru such a harsh environment not a general condemnation of the many excellent mentors explaining the loa to enthusiastic learners.
    I would like to know how many of the commenter?s who rush to judgment know anything about loa at all before making their pronouncements.
    The law of attraction?s basic concepts go back 1000?s of years and came from people like Christ, Buddha and Krishna.
    I learned all I could from a CD which cost under $100 and contained several extensive interviews covering every aspect of loa. It has made a profound impact on my life.
    In the early 1900?s a man named Charles Haanel taught it and called it the master key system. Businessmen who took the course felt it was so valuable they tried to buy it so it could no longer be distributed.
    If you listen to Joel Osteen on cable, you are list
by Stacy Goldring · 11 months ago
    Most thoughtful and informative conversation I've heard around this issue. Thank-you
by Kaleah · 11 months ago
    Great Article and comments! I think we are dealing with "Spiritual Narcissism." There is a lot of it out there and I hope this tragedy will bring it more to light. I deal with Narcissistic abuse every day and it was easy to spot the narcissism in this man's behavior. My greatest concern is that the abuse survivors recognize and deal with the trauma they have faced. My second concern is that James Ray be accountable for leading so many people into a deadly dangerous situation. What I would have liked to hear from him is: "I was wrong! I was inexperienced and pushed too hard. I was not compassionate to the needs of the people in the lodge! It was my fault! I should have stopped the lodge when people were fainting and getting sick!" But narcissistic people don't admit fault or take responsibility. Whoever said we shouldn't focus on the leader, I have to question that. Why not? Lets not turn a blind eye here! The man needs to be accountable!

    Kaleah
http://www.narcissismfree.com[/list]
by Mel · 11 months ago
    hope there is a full investigation into this incident. Clearly, there should be stiff consequences for the leader(s) and their role in this tragedy. My thoughts and prayers go out to the innocent victims. Great job, Cassandra!
by Ex JRI Warrior · 11 months ago
    from the sounds of it, MN Senator Klobuchar is calling for a federal investigation, there is a local investigation going on in AZ and well as multiple lawsuits being filed and I just also heard that Green Valley Ranch Resort just cancelled JRI's block of rooms for the upcoming Quantum Leap event next month.... it's all adding up, we will see what happens.
by reader · 11 months ago
    Thank you for looking at this issue from a psychological perspective - not enough people are doing that. I highly recommend anyone interested in spiritual teachings and teachers to read The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power by Kramer and Alstad - it doesn't reject spiritual pursuits at all, it helps to understand how to approach them critically (besides being a brilliant, highly literate and fascinating read).
by dataohmu man · 11 months ago
    Right on Shawna
    I also have had many years of training in the ceremony . how many rocks, should have had second door in back of sweat, four rounds , sometimes I will do two more rounds by myself afterward if feel like more prayers needed . never macho , If I was in there would have taken over by force if needed ,boneheads born every day , plastic or rubber exposed to inside , some guys like to hear themselves talk , should have instead asked if everybody ok in there during it , should have had one day at least to recooperate before sweat ,towls should be able to cover up , more air needed between rounds , what or whom did he invite for helpers or Creator
    what songs were sung , in short I wish I could run one for him right now .
by t00lz · 11 months ago
    Give your money to a reputable charity or legitimate place of worship, instead of misappropriating other's customs for
    selfish quests. Promises of wealth and appeals to greed have lured people to destruction. It would be better for individuals to spend their own wealth on luxury items for themselves than to hand it over to cowardly sniveling weasels. This loser publically said on TV that the Holocaust that was a good positive thing. I guess he thinks that death camps, starvation, humiliation, are just peachy keen. Read his smug little "tweets" glorifying death and judge for yourselves. Hmm... sealed vinyl tarp, deprivation of water and food, sleep deprivation, exposure to the elements, thermal stress, remote location, and bumbling goons obstructing the exits. This wasn't a sweat lodge, this was a "full-on" death-camp minus the grape Kool-Ayde.
by wade crowe · 11 months ago
    The native tribal members will now keep an eye on James Arthur Ray and his followers. Expect us to push and fight to keep them from exploiting our traditions. We will fight until the end.
by trishmon · 10 months ago
    What exactly about this article makes it so fabulous? As far I'm concerned this is nothing but a sensationalized, inflamatory, wanna be professional journalism piece of crap.

    This kind of news reporting is exactly why I choose to not watch the News anymore. The account of events are completely biased and the writer out right admits it. It's one thing you express your views, opinions and feelings on the situation but PLEASE don't try to pass it off as journalism.

    Cassandra, it seems you had a very negative experience with JRI and you are using this unfortunate and horrible situation as an excuse to vent. Me thinks thou protesth too much...you claim James was only concerned about himself - I don't see much difference in your pathetic rant.

    I care about the families who experienced such a devastating lose but please don't use their pain as an opportunity to promote your own agenda.
by tahoe geminii · 10 months ago
    Brainwashed-obviously a mindless JAR sheep cruising the internet on damage control-I am so sick of seeing the blog entries made by the James Ray robots-you try to discredit the journalist and make some big deal over something someone said you find offensive-you actually are trying to still get people to pay to see this murderer!"He won't hurt you" I think the dead would dispute this statement-IF they could-ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS AND THE ONLY BACK J RAY HAS IS HIS OWN-You want proof-why has he not refunded the dead's money? or why did he charge Collen Conway for Spiritual Warrior when she was pronounced dead at one of his seminars in SD a month earlier. Dead for a month and still charged for the seminar she died at and for Spiritual Warrior.COME ON-how much of a sheep do you want to be-TRISHMON you aren't fooling anyone either-putting down the writer don't pay any attention to the fact that people died-let's target the writer.
by tahoe geminii · 10 months ago
    I guess I haven't finished with TRISHMON yet--TRISHMON you quit watching the news because your are a mindless idiot who let's someone that is good looking and charismatic TELL YOU what you should think-Please don't try to pass off your damage control for James Ray as a unbiased comment from someone not in your little cult--BEWARE OF THE KOOLAID-hope you think your soooo smart falling for the oldest scam in the book--The only agenda here is from you--and for the record the difference is that the writer of this article is saving lives not ripping the innocent off and then leaving them for dead. Save your negativity insults for some one who sees the Emperor's New Clothes-at least some of us still have the brains to say-"Hey why is the Emperor naked?" Always the last defense of the LOA and Positive Thinking SCAMS is if you don't believe this malarkey-your just a negative person. BAAAA BAAAA TRISHMON-be careful now cause you could be J Ray's next victim-only if you pay up first though
by sedona resident · 10 months ago
    James Ray usually goes to a popular coffee chain & check his email on their free wi-fi while the rest are on the vision quest.
by friend of deceased · 10 months ago
    I would like to thank Cassandra for being the voice of this tragic event and giving info out to people who want to know what the Hell happened!! Every day I want my friend to come back, I want to think I could have stopped this from happening! But how? Screaming on the top of my lungs after the fact? It is so discouraging and frustrating that JAR is not stepping up and being accountable for his meglamaniac actions......
    So many questions,so many concerns....will there ever be any answers??


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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Comments: "Breaking News: Inside accounts of...," #s 76-
« Reply #271 on: October 12, 2010, 10:21:36 AM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Comments left for the above piece, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat" (by Cassandra Yorgey; October 16th, 2009; Examiner.com), #s 76-91:


by JRweekend · 11 months ago
    It's Terrible what happened.His behavior seems bizarre.I went to the JR warrior event in 2006. Some highlights I recall are james bragging about selling a program that didn't exist yet and how he made 40k in a day. Lots of pressure to "raise our consciousness" by attending the future events. Of course- the only way to do it was by going. Volunteer staff encouraging the use of your credit card. james announcing the percentage of signups for the "quantum leap" live from the stage. Dorky pictures of himself as a kid with buck teeth and big glasses. I guess the implication is that if you do what he says you can be like him. james also liked people to know about his three homes in Hawaii, Vegas, and CA. All places where there are events BTW.. I think james should stop helping others and get help himself.


All this bullshit is just one more of the line of many scams that prey on people who are searching the "the answer" to life, and they know it.  The wannabe gurus of this industry know very well what they're doing and exactly how much money people are willing for fork because they're desperate for someone, ANYone to follow.  This isn't about helping people.  It's about hijacking a cultural tradition from the Native Americans and pretending that they're doing anything near that all in search of the almighty dollar.



Quote
by Kaleah · 11 months ago
    Great Article and comments! I think we are dealing with "Spiritual Narcissism." There is a lot of it out there and I hope this tragedy will bring it more to light. I deal with Narcissistic abuse every day and it was easy to spot the narcissism in this man's behavior. My greatest concern is that the abuse survivors recognize and deal with the trauma they have faced. My second concern is that James Ray be accountable for leading so many people into a deadly dangerous situation. What I would have liked to hear from him is: "I was wrong! I was inexperienced and pushed too hard. I was not compassionate to the needs of the people in the lodge! It was my fault! I should have stopped the lodge when people were fainting and getting sick!" But narcissistic people don't admit fault or take responsibility. Whoever said we shouldn't focus on the leader, I have to question that. Why not? Lets not turn a blind eye here! The man needs to be accountable!
That's an excellent way of putting it!  Spiritual Narcissism.  These wannabe gurus seem to truly need followers.  They can't live without the adoration of the sheep.  It's like life giving air to them.  It's absolutely true with Newton.  He still can't stop himself from trying to start some kind of a program.....even in his own house.  Thankfully, we knocked that one out of the park!  :deal:  :twofinger:

These fucking "spiritual warriors" make me ill.  


Quote
by trishmon · 10 months ago
    What exactly about this article makes it so fabulous? As far I'm concerned this is nothing but a sensationalized, inflamatory, wanna be professional journalism piece of crap.

    This kind of news reporting is exactly why I choose to not watch the News anymore. The account of events are completely biased and the writer out right admits it. It's one thing you express your views, opinions and feelings on the situation but PLEASE don't try to pass it off as journalism.

Cassandra, it seems you had a very negative experience with JRI and you are using this unfortunate and horrible situation as an excuse to vent. Me thinks thou protesth too much...you claim James was only concerned about himself - I don't see much difference in your pathetic rant.

I care about the families who experienced such a devastating lose but please don't use their pain as an opportunity to promote your own agenda.

Sound familiar to any of us??




Quote
by tahoe geminii · 10 months ago
    Brainwashed-obviously a mindless JAR sheep cruising the internet on damage control-I am so sick of seeing the blog entries made by the James Ray robots-you try to discredit the journalist and make some big deal over something someone said you find offensive-you actually are trying to still get people to pay to see this murderer!"He won't hurt you" I think the dead would dispute this statement-IF they could-ACTIONS SPEAK LOUDER THAN WORDS AND THE ONLY BACK J RAY HAS IS HIS OWN-You want proof-why has he not refunded the dead's money? or why did he charge Collen Conway for Spiritual Warrior when she was pronounced dead at one of his seminars in SD a month earlier. Dead for a month and still charged for the seminar she died at and for Spiritual Warrior.COME ON-how much of a sheep do you want to be-TRISHMON you aren't fooling anyone either-putting down the writer don't pay any attention to the fact that people died-let's target the writer.
by tahoe geminii · 10 months ago


I guess I haven't finished with TRISHMON yet--TRISHMON you quit watching the news because your are a mindless idiot who let's someone that is good looking and charismatic TELL YOU what you should think-Please don't try to pass off your damage control for James Ray as a unbiased comment from someone not in your little cult--BEWARE OF THE KOOLAID-hope you think your soooo smart falling for the oldest scam in the book--The only agenda here is from you--and for the record the difference is that the writer of this article is saving lives not ripping the innocent off and then leaving them for dead. Save your negativity insults for some one who sees the Emperor's New Clothes-at least some of us still have the brains to say-"Hey why is the Emperor naked?" Always the last defense of the LOA and Positive Thinking SCAMS is if you don't believe this malarkey-your just a negative person. BAAAA BAAAA TRISHMON-be careful now cause you could be J Ray's next victim-only if you pay up first though[/list][/list]

 :notworthy:  :notworthy:

This is why this crap holds an interest for me.  It's got so much in common with programs.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Ursus

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Shawna Bowen Interviews About James Ray Sweat Lodge
« Reply #272 on: October 19, 2010, 09:45:47 PM »
From the above article, "Breaking news: Inside accounts of James Ray sweat lodge tragedy and retreat":
Quote from: "Cassandra Yorgey"
For more info: I am not the only teen advocate speaking out. Shawna Bowen is a licensed therapist who focuses on teens with substance abuse problems. I am not familiar with her body of work but the things she reveals in this interview seem to be supporting my own research. Click here to see her on CBS.
Here's that piece. You'll need to click on the link (below) to watch the 3:51 CBS news clip entitled "Sweat Lodge Horror - Eyewitness Recalls Arizona Tragedy."

There are also two more in-depth Blog Talk Radio Interviews: "The James Ray Incident: Let's Talk About..." and "The James Ray Incident: A Discussion about..." The latter one is also available on the original link of the above quoted Cassandra Yorgey piece.

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Verde Valley Blog and Independent News Source
Shawna Bowen Interviews About James Ray Sweat Lodge
by Jason Shultz on October 16, 2009


Shawna Bowen, Motivational Speaker and Therapist

Shawna Bowen interviews with Harry Smith of the CBS Early Show about what she saw at the James Ray Sweat Lodge in Sedona, Arizona where two people died. Shawna Bowen is a Therapist, Author, and Motivational Speaker. You can find out more about her at FromRockStarToTherapist.com.


# #
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Offline heretik

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #273 on: October 19, 2010, 11:48:14 PM »
Spiritual Narcissism...nifty little catch phrase word. Very fad coming from seasoned work shop junkies covering the circuit. One thing you must understand 90% of these people posting negative comments will be in another workshop within the year. They are addicted to them, they bring structure and organization to there lives. They want James Ray and others to be where they are. Cause and effect, leaders and followers and life goes on.
Yes Anne these people want their Gurus and when one fails and is cast aside they find another to replace them and life goes on.
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Offline Ursus

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Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray in Crosshairs of...
« Reply #274 on: October 21, 2010, 01:30:05 PM »
CBS News · Crimesider
October 16, 2009 9:33 AM

Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray in Crosshairs of Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Homicide Investigation
Posted by Edecio Martinez


James Arthur Ray. (JamesRay.com)

PRESCOTT, Arizona (CBS/AP) The deaths of two people during the Angel Valley Retreat sweat lodge ceremony led by self-help guru James Arthur Ray are now being investigated as homicides, authorities said. And the "Spiritual Warrior" who earned around half-a-million dollars from the deadly retreat is in the crosshairs.

Yavapai County Sheriff Steve Waugh said the deaths last week of Kirby Brown, 38, and James Shore, 40, were not accidental.

"A combination of circumstances led to the deaths," Waugh said Thursday. "Whether or not we can prove a criminal case, that has yet to be determined."

Waugh said investigators are looking at the way the sweat lodge was built, the fact that people had fallen ill at previous sweat ceremonies led by Ray, and questionable medical care on site. Authorities have said a nurse hired by Ray was directing rescue efforts including CPR when emergency crews arrived.

Ray is the primary focus of the probe but others also are being investigated, the sheriff said.

Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, said the sheriff's use of "homicide" to characterize the investigation was irresponsible and a rush to judgment.

"I find it very interesting the police are trying to escalate the case in the media, and frankly, I think the escalation should be in getting the facts," he said. "We have one goal and that is to find out what happened so that it never happens again."

Ray led more than 50 people into a makeshift sweat lodge at a rented retreat outside Sedona on Oct. 8. After about two hours, Brown and Shore were pulled out. Nineteen other people were taken to hospitals, and one remains in critical condition.

"He's a motivational speaker who tried his hand at very dangerous physical things, and it was reckless," Brown's cousin and family spokesman Tom McFeeley said of the sheriff's announcement. "It doesn't surprise us in the least."

Sheriff's Lt. David Rhodes said investigators have spoken to most of the sweat lodge participants, but they're not sure how much of what they're hearing is accurate. It was pitch black inside the structure and possible that no one noticed that Shore and Brown were passed out, authorities said.

"You have two people who died in the presence of 50 other people in an environment in which no one seems to understand what happened," Rhodes said.

Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and has not spoken with Arizona authorities. He hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong, and Bragman said that team and Ray's attorney are cooperating with the sheriff's investigators.

A search warrant was served Wednesday at Ray's Carlsbad, California-based company, James Ray International. Deputies were looking for medical records of those attending the Sedona retreat, documents on the sweat lodge's construction and use, and any warnings of health risks, Waugh said.

The motivational speaker, author and self-help guru offers clients the promise of spiritual and financial wealth in his programs. The five-day "Spiritual Warrior" course during which the deaths occurred had about 50 participants who paid more than $9,000 each.

Do the math. Ray raked in around half a million dollars. It's not clear if he has returned any of the money.

The culmination of the retreat was the sweat lodge ceremony. Records obtained by The Associated Press on Tuesday showed local fire officials responded to the same retreat for a person who fell unconscious during a Ray-led sweat ceremony in 2005.


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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray in Crosshairs of...
« Reply #275 on: October 21, 2010, 03:12:44 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"


James Arthur Ray. (JamesRay.com)



I like this one better.








Ursus, if below has already been posted, please let me know and I'll delete it.  Thx!

Edited: Deleted for duplication.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Ursus

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Comments: "Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray in Crosshairs..."
« Reply #276 on: October 21, 2010, 03:57:58 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I like this one better.
Ah, but there you're jumping a lil ahead in the story!  ;)  

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Comments left for the above article, "Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray in Crosshairs of Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Homicide Investigation" (by Edecio Martinez; October 16, 2009; CBS News Crimesider):


by Hosheen · October 16, 2009 10:40 AM EDT
    Considering that James A. Ray is, and always has been, a con man and a phony, it's time someone threw the BS flag on this faker and brought him to account for his actions. He has defrauded so many and so irresponsibly, that he should spend the rest of his life in prison.
    by docpeter1953 · October 16, 2009 12:44 PM EDT
      Maybe so, but for murder or fraud? Two entirely different accusations. Is he a killer like Manson, or a fraud like Made-off?
    [/list]
    by quapawsix · October 16, 2009 1:06 PM EDT
      Self help??? How is it self help when you have to pay someone for what the Creator gave each and everyone of us. Why is it easier to believe someone else and not believe in yourself?
    by skeetchamp · October 16, 2009 3:17 PM EDT
      Just shows what kind of stuff people are willing to waste $5,000 on. If not for the dead people I'd say that if he could con people out of money they should be left to themselves. Now, taxpayers have to pay for an investigation and that really seems unfair.
    by geminispyder-2009 · October 16, 2009 4:54 PM EDT
      "The motivational speaker, author and self-help guru offers clients the promise of spiritual and financial wealth in his programs. The five-day "Spiritual Warrior" course during which the deaths occurred had about 50 participants who paid more than $9,000 each" If his clients want spiritual and financial health, 5 of those participants could've just banded together and opened up a coffee shop in the middle of a populated downtown area.
    by jamesrandydov · October 19, 2009 4:24 PM EDT
      Its sad to see the media pigpile develop, fueled by comments from many people who likely couldn't tell you one sentence about James Ray's teachings and how many people have been helped. While calling him a fraud and huckster, how many of them realize they just dissed the Bible and various other major religious figures, from whom a lot of his teachings are derived? This is a horrible tragedy that occurred during an event by a person who spends over 200 days a year on the road, helping others. His teaching sources? Are all the following hucksters? Jesus, Buddha, Krishna ? A 'little' knowledge is a dangerous thing. My heart goes out to the families who have lost loved ones and to James Ray.
    by zzazzannii · November 27, 2009 1:31 PM EST
      I recently learned of these tragedies when my friends started asking me to stop attending sweat lodges, which I have done with only positive effects for a decade. I feel very compelled to offer some observations, as well as my regret that this has happened. My prayers and thoughts are with family and friends of the victims. If you ever attend a sweat lodge ceremony and find the lodge covered in any way with plastic materials, do not participate. The lodge and people within it must breath and plastic makes this difficult if not impossible. Plastic should never be used to cover lodges while they are in use. Some may put plastic over them to keep them dry when they are not in use, but this should be removed before using the lodge. It is the responsibility of a lodge leader to track the welfare of all those who have entered the lodge. If the group of people is so large as to make this impossible, as was the case here, do not enter. If you feel at all like you need to get out of the lodge, whether it is between rounds or not, whether the door is open or not, whether you have "permission" from the lodge leader or not, you should go. Go through the soft sides of the lodge if you must, if you are being barred exit through the door. At least open the side of the lodge and breath. Sweat lodges are beautiful and cleansing experiences, and I would hate to see lodges in general, as I have in the last few days, held responsible for the neglectful way in which this one was run. The moment I saw the picture of this lodge I knew immediately at least two problems were evident. IMHO, this is definitely at least a case of criminal neglect and involuntary manslaughter by the man who lead this lodge. Blessings of health and awareness. Most sweat lodges are healthy, safe and wonderful. Aho.
    by starrangelsw · December 9, 2009 2:46 PM EST
      HEALERS DON'T CHARGE AN ENTRANCE FEE, its not our way...not in our teachings or way of life! ojibwe native


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    Offline Ursus

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    Third victim of sweat lodge dies
    « Reply #277 on: October 24, 2010, 11:03:42 AM »
    Lizbeth Neuman never made it out of her coma, and has died. This is now the third death directly attributable to the James Ray sweat lodge tragedy.

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    The Daily Courier
    10/17/2009 8:51:00 PM

    Third victim of sweat lodge dies
    The Daily Courier

    A third victim of the Angel Valley Retreat Center's sweat lodge event has died, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office announced late Saturday night.

    Lizbeth Neuman, a 49-year-old resident of Prior Lake, Minn., died at Flagstaff Medical Center. Neuman was hospitalized after participating in the sweat lodge hosted by James Arthur Ray on Oct. 8 near Sedona.

    Neuman marks the third death from the incident. James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee, Wis., and Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., died on Oct. 8. The Yavapai County Medical Examiner conducted autopsies the next day and the results are still pending. To help investigate the cause of death, authorities have obtained samples of the fabric constructing the lodge roof and also samples of rock, firewood and the wooden dome frame.

    There are no other retreat participants remaining hospitalized.

    The Yavapai County Sheriff's Office has elevated this investigation from an accidental death inquiry to a homicide investigation.


    © Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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    Offline Ursus

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    Comments for "Third victim of sweat lodge dies"
    « Reply #278 on: October 24, 2010, 11:08:20 AM »
    Comment left for the above article, "Third victim of sweat lodge dies" (10/17/2009, The Daily Courier):


    Article comment by: Bad news for Mr. Ray · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
      I bet she died of multiple organ failure (brain mainly) due to hypoxemia (lack of oxygen in the bloodstream). That was due to these 60 people being crammed into a low structure that was 400 square feet, breathing hard due to the hot stones and sweating at 3000 foot elevation and no ventilation. They used up too much oxygen. Not exactly rocket science to predict something bad could happen here, and it did. Mr. Ray and his cache of spiritual people had better be praying real hard, and had better have good legal representation. And his cadre of spiritually saavy financial wizards had better have saved up a bunch of coin, he's gonna need that too.


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    Offline Ursus

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    Third Death from Sweat Lodge Ceremony Led by...
    « Reply #279 on: October 24, 2010, 01:16:28 PM »
    CBS News · Crimesider
    October 18, 2009 10:30 AM

    Third Death from Sweat Lodge Ceremony Led by James Arthur Ray
    Posted by Neil Katz

    FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. - A third person has died a week after she attended a sweat lodge ceremony at the Angel Valley Retreat Center that has already left two dead and nearly two dozen hospitalized.

    The deaths are being investigated as homicides and James Arthur Ray, the self-help guru that led the retreat is in the crosshairs.

    Liz Neuman of Minnesota died Saturday at a Flagstaff hospital, Yavapai County sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said.

    The 49-year-old suffered multiple organ damage during the Oct. 8 ceremony at a resort near Sedona, a resort town 115 miles (185 kilometers) north of Phoenix that draws many in the New Age spiritual movement.

    Authorities were treating all three deaths as homicides, but no charges have been filed.

    Neuman was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray. An emergency call two hours after they entered the lodge reported two people not breathing.

    Twenty-one people were taken to area hospitals with illnesses ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. Kirby Brown, 38, and James Shore, 40, died upon arrival at a hospital.

    No one else remains hospitalized.

    Authorities haven't determined what caused the deaths. Autopsy results on Brown and Shore are pending further testing.

    The Rev. Meredith Ann Murray, who has completed all of Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.

    According to Ray's Web site, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "Journey Expansion Team." The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the country, meet to exchange ideas on his principles. The next Minneapolis-area meeting is scheduled for Oct. 23.

    Ray had rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for his five-day "Spiritual Warrior" event that culminated in the sweat lodge ceremony. Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 to attend the retreat.

    Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and Arizona authorities said he had not spoken to them as of Thursday. In his first public appearance Tuesday in Los Angeles, Ray told a crowd of about 200 that he has hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong.

    His spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said that Ray's team and Ray's attorney are co-operating with the sheriff's investigators.

    More than 100 people attended the funeral for Brown on Saturday at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, New York, according to The Times Herald-Record newspaper. The avid hiker and surfer who had a passion for art was remembered as a spiritual seeker.

    Services for Shore were held late Saturday afternoon at the Hubbard Lodge in Milwaukee.


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    Offline Ursus

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    Comments: "Third Death from Sweat Lodge Ceremony..."
    « Reply #280 on: October 24, 2010, 01:19:35 PM »
    Comments left for the above article, "Third Death from Sweat Lodge Ceremony Led by James Arthur Ray" (by Neil Katz; October 18, 2009; CBS News Crimesider):


    by pete_in_az · October 18, 2009 11:13 AM EDT
      Services were held at the Hubbard lodge? Like L. Ron Hubbard?
    by tuffyturf · October 18, 2009 11:21 AM EDT
      What a scam James Arthur Ray is perpetrating. The man is responsible for the deaths of 3 people, and there are more! People have been injured and dying in these "Sweat Lodges" for years. This individual belongs in jail. He was so broken up about news of the deaths that he just had to do back to back speaking engagements at Rancho Bernardo and La Jolla, in California. ( By the way La Jolla is the richest city in America ) He was again pushing his Scam, and trying to sell his products etc. to further enrich him, with your hard earned money! James Arthur Ray was so grief stricken, that he just had to do these engagements the day after people died, under his tutelage! Also, he refuses to cooperate with authorities, or even give a statement. I hope the families of the 3 people, who died, sue him civilly and bankrupt his cult. Then he can tell all his fellow cons about how people paid him $10,000 to be locked in a sauna, in the middle of the desert, while they slowly cooked and suffered brain damage and death! Come on America- wake up! How do people fall for this type of scam? If you want, you can pay me $5,000 and I'll give you a Karate Chop across the bridge of the nose, then I'll whisper inspirational clichés in your ear, and you will come away with the exact same experience that James Arthur Ray offers, at half the price....
    by dragon8me · October 18, 2009 11:24 AM EDT
      I think these people felt obligated to stay until told to leave, instead of leaving when they had enough , especially after paying a lot of money, which is crazy. Noramlly a person wouldn't stay if they started feeling sick. It can be dangerious and I wonder if they were told of the dangers. And then, it was done for profit, so how can it be a spiritual event. I don't know about you but I would never trust the money grubbing types.
    by vancouverboo · October 18, 2009 11:58 AM EDT
      If you die do you get a tuition refund?
      by lmartink · October 18, 2009 12:22 PM EDT
        Was this the new Jonestown? Why do people fall for nut jobs like this? And as one who has spent a little bit of time in sweat lodges, I know that 2 hours is an incredibly long time in a dangerous and hazardous environment. I'm glad this is being taken seriously, and I've got a hunch the story is going to be fascincating, just like the story at Jonestown.
      [/list]
      by BrianSchider · October 18, 2009 1:20 PM EDT
        I live in Sedona and this story disturbs and saddens me. There are many great people that host sweat lodges in Sedona. Everyone of those people that I have met are native american and Know the do's and do not's to providing a save experience. The owners of Angel Valley are great people. It is people like these so called self proclaimed guru's that give the real spiritual people a bad name. Lock this guy up. Show the public that we will not tolerate non natives from exploiting sacred ceromonies for large sums of money. I have been in several sweats and never have I heard of that many people in one sweat. Dehydration should not be a factor considering that natives who hold these sweats stress the importance of drinking plenty of water before the sweat. The right people do not allow weak bodies in a sweat. I hope this sends a message to the rest of the fakes that have blind followers. James Ray was right about one thing. It was a life changing experience. Now he can retire in prison. If he is truly spiritual he will accept a prison sentence, get sued from the families and lose everything he has taken from people. I hope you read this James, get out of your denial, throw the towel in and prepare for a life of making license plates. It's time you find god and prison will show you the way. When spiritual guru's have a team of lawyers that should also say something to the public. When you operate in purity chance will favor you. It's over James, get a new day job.
        by doreenpowell · October 18, 2009 7:57 PM EDT
          Amen - time for you to begin listening to your own guru - YOURSELF! I have participated in many sweats and have never been asked for one cent. These 'sweats were run by pipe carriers and lodge keepers - not some greedy fake self-professed spiritual guy. The fact that he left the site tells me who he really is. Shame on him and his abundance quackery!
        [/list]
        by rsamps1 · October 18, 2009 2:17 PM EDT
          Jimmy Ray is a complete whack-job- why was he allowed to leave the state? Clearly he was responsible for these deaths- if not homicide, clearly manslaughter. He's going around acting like nothing much happened, "helping people." It's safe to say that nobody needs James Ray's help...BTW, paying to sit in a "sweat lodge"? Come on people, get a life-
        by credibility2 · October 18, 2009 4:12 PM EDT
          Too many gullible and weak people search for spirituality based on an ad or marketing gimmick. Ray took advantage of these delusional low-esteemed individuals.
        by SpiritualShow · October 18, 2009 6:23 PM EDT
          This is why it's so important for people to realize that they need to follow their own inner guidance rather than that of some guru. These spiritual leaders — teachers have awesome information to share, but take what resonates with you — leave the rest. And do what feels right for you, whether or not it complies with the teachings of whatever practice you follow. Clearly, proper safety measures were not taken — people lost their lives. I don't think it's murder but it's certainly negligent. While there is probably some fault with the organizers of the event, and perhaps criminal negligence, people do need to take responsibility for themselves. I'm not saying the people who suffered injuries or death are at fault, this is a very sad and unfortunate situation. But when we put our faith in some other person, and blindly follow whatever they say rather than following what we know in our hearts to be our own best path, things like this can happen very easily.
        by fedup12 · October 18, 2009 7:44 PM EDT
          by credibility2 October 18, 2009 4:12 PM EDT Too many gullible and weak people search for spirituality based on an ad or marketing gimmick. Ray took advantage of these delusional low-esteemed individuals. ---------------------------------- Good thing the regular low esteemed, gullible people dont have 10G to spend on this updistay itshay...
        by rwsmith29456 · October 18, 2009 10:46 PM EDT
          Three people killed and other people burned? This wasn't a sweat lodge or sauna, it was a furnace.
        by rtlhaz · October 19, 2009 4:39 PM EDT
          since ray might be charged with homicide are the race organizers in detroit going to be charge with murder of the three runners that died?...apples for apples???. it was an accident nothing more.
        by rtlhaz · October 19, 2009 4:43 PM EDT
          since ray might be charged with homicide are the race organizers in detroit going to be charge with murder of the three runners that died?...apples for apples???. it was an accident nothing more.
        by skysinger1 · October 20, 2009 5:47 AM EDT
          An "accident"? That is ignorant. I have attended Inipi (sweatlodge) in northern Colorado for years. Only a person who is honored and earns the rank of Pipe Carrier can lead these ceremonies, legitimately, in Native traditions (at least Lakota). They know to take care of their people during this. Seems like this guy thinks his fabulous spray tan and bleached teeth qualified him. Get real. I used to LIKE this guy actually, but I am off all his lists now.
          by rtlhaz · October 20, 2009 11:23 AM EDT
            has nothing to do with liking this guy or not...he did not want these people to die...get real..........................
          [/list]
          by yalatanza · October 20, 2009 10:20 AM EDT
            Sorry Oprah Winfrey wasn't there because she has turned on a lot of American to this falsehood, the Secret. What would you gain from this gimmick anyway? There are many of them out there making money off insecure people who are looking for that something that has eluding them. They have rejected the true god who has power over all the universe. These Gurus, including Eckhart Toole, and his book of lies "A New Earth" are just fooling people to make money off them. Where in the world can you wish riches and all of a sudden there are millions in your bank account. These are some of foolishness that Oprah was teaching on her web cast all over the world. To those who are being misled, don't feel too bad because you have compnay in Oprah Winfrey and Gale, Jim Carey and his girlfriend Jenny McCarthy, Denzil Wishington and a lot of those hollywood misfits.
          by manzplan · October 21, 2009 2:52 PM EDT
            to yalatanza and the other who choose to use these people's death to promote their agenda of hammering a dying repressive religion back down the throat of the world. Stop it right now. These deaths are a sad thing and have nothing to do with the belief system that Mr Ray promotes or Oprah for that matter, or the many many Physicists who also tell us this is the closet to the truth we have come. You say people should come back to the "One True God" assuming you are speaking of the Christian one, since people who are so narrow minded and bigoted usually are when they make such a statement. How many people have died or become ill at camp meetings and tent revivals from heat exhuastion? Answer many and I have seen quite few in my day when I was forced to go to them. No one forced these folks into the sweat lodge they went willingly. How many people have gotten sick or died from tainted pot luck dinner foods at churches? Answer many not to mention those who died from obesity because of that lifestyle. How many people have died at church camps? on church trips? etc etc etc etc. How many people have been murdered in the name of "The one True God" The list goes on and on for people dying at or on their way to Christian events is very long. The list for deaths "related" to "The Secret" is the 3 people on this page. Guess what? These deaths are not related to "The Secret" or any belief system anymore than those kids who died on a church camp bus a couple years ago is related to Christianity. It just happened and it is sad. Just like a friend of mine's dad who died at a church baseball game. Is that God's fault or the fault of that churches belief system? Grow up. My only problem with Ray's beliefs is that he tries to still fit in the nicey nice crap of Do gooding in an attempt to get people to act nice to others. If you truly understand "The Secret" it has nothing to do with that. It is just your thoughts creating reality. That is all and that in being proven daily in science and in the market place.
          by gifthorsie · October 26, 2009 9:32 PM EDT
            This is such a sad and disturbing story. I feel so badly for the poor people and their families. James Arthur Ray and his 'movement' hints somewhat of brainwashing cults like est that keep people uncomfortable for long periods (stop folks from going to the bathroom, etc) so they can gain control over them. They break them down over a short period, and then build them back up with a sense of euphoria. This is extremely distructive. I trust the government is looking into Mr. James Arthur Ray's personal finances. Someone who would let his own followers die like this is might do other illegal activities like, say, tax evasion? Where there's a Sweat Lodges, there's undoubtedly Fire.


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          Offline Ursus

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          Arizona sweat lodge death toll rises to three
          « Reply #281 on: October 25, 2010, 11:03:23 AM »
          And... here's another article about this news, this one from The Guardian (UK). It seems to be pretty similar to the one published by CBS News Crimesider (above):

          -------------- • -------------- • --------------

          guardian.co.uk
          Arizona sweat lodge death toll rises to three
          Woman, 49, dies of multiple organ failure a week after new age ceremony that left two dead
          Associated Press
          Sunday 18 October 2009 16.22 BST


          A third person has died following a ceremony in a so-called "sweat lodge" modelled on Native American traditions.

          A man and a woman died and nearly two dozen people were left needing hospital treatment as a result of the ceremony in Arizona more than a week ago.

          Liz Neuman of Minnesota died on Saturday at an Arizona hospital, Yavapai county sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said.

          The 49-year-old suffered multiple organ damage during the 8 October ceremony at a resort near Sedona, a town 115 miles north of Phoenix that draws many in the new age movement. The lodge forms part of a new age centre which advertises services of "spiritual cleansing."

          Authorities were treating all three deaths as homicides but no charges have been filed.

          Neuman was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray.

          The crowd had been packed for up to two hours inside the lodge, which was a little over 1.5m high in its centre and less than 1m high at the sides.

          An emergency call two hours after they entered the lodge reported two people not breathing.

          Twenty-one people were taken to area hospitals with illnesses ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. Kirby Brown, 38, and James Shore, 40, died upon arrival at hospital.

          All the other victims have now been discharged from hospital.

          Authorities have not yet determined what caused the deaths but autopsy results on Brown and Shore will be subject to further testing.

          The Rev Meredith Ann Murray, who has attended Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.

          According to Ray's website, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "journey expansion team". The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the US, regularly meet to exchange ideas on his principles.

          Ray had rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for a five-day "spiritual warrior" event that culminated in the sweat lodge ceremony. Participants paid between $9,000 (£5,500) and $10,000 to attend.

          Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and Arizona authorities said he had not spoken to them as of Thursday. But, in a public appearance in Los Angeles, Ray told a crowd of about 200 that he had hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong.

          His spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said Ray's team and his lawyer are cooperating with the sheriff's investigators.

          More than 100 people attended the funeral for Brown on Saturday at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, New York, said The Times Herald-Record newspaper. The avid hiker and surfer was remembered as a spiritual seeker.

          Services for Shore were held on Saturday afternoon in Milwaukee.


          guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2010
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          Offline Ursus

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          Sweat lodge deaths cast negative spotlight on guru
          « Reply #282 on: October 25, 2010, 09:19:27 PM »
          From the above article, "Arizona sweat lodge death toll rises to three":

            The Rev Meredith Ann Murray, who has attended Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.[/list]

            Here's another article, which also mentions Rev. Meredith Ann Murray:

            -------------- • -------------- • --------------

            The Daily Courier
            10/17/2009 10:00:00 PM

            Sweat lodge deaths cast negative spotlight on guru
            By FELICIA FONSECA and BOB CHRISTIE · The Associated Press


            This Sept. 2007 picture provided by Rev. Meredith Ann Murray shows her with James Arthur Ray at the Spiritual Warrior Course at Angel Valley Retreat Center in Sedona. Murray said she spent three hours in a sweat lodge led by Ray in 2007 that she said was done safely and helped her conquer claustrophobia. Courtesy of Meredith Ann Murray/AP

            SEDONA - James Arthur Ray led a group of more than 50 followers into a cramped, sauna-like sweat lodge in Arizona last week by convincing them that his words would lead them to spiritual and financial wealth.

            The mantra has made him a millionaire. People routinely pack Ray's seminars and follow the motivational guru to weeklong retreats that can cost more than $9,000 per person.

            But Ray's self-help empire was thrown into turmoil when two of his followers died after collapsing in the makeshift sweat lodge near Sedona; a third died a week later, and 19 others were hospitalized. A homicide investigation that followed has cast a critical spotlight on Ray's company.

            Critics are citing the sweat lodge tragedy as evidence that Ray is a charlatan who is not to be trusted. A relative of one victim accused Ray of exhibiting a "godlike complex" during the event that he said recklessly abandoned the safety of participants. Dedicated followers say they fully trust Ray to lead them through exercises that greatly improve their lives.

            Shawna Bowen, once a James Ray fanatic who was among those who tended to the ill, has had a change of heart since the deaths.

            "I could not imagine people looking to him after he made such egregious errors with human life," she said. "I don't think he has the right to be leading others right now. I think he needs to take a good look at where his ego, where his power trip got in the way."

            Ray wept openly during his first public appearance after the deaths. During a free recruiting seminar for his program Tuesday in Los Angeles, he broke down in tears, the confident pitchman momentarily gone.

            "This is the most difficult time I've ever faced," Ray told a crowd of about 200 at a hotel in Marina del Rey. "I don't know how to deal with it, really."

            Ray has become a self-help superstar by packaging his charismatic personality and selling wealth. Those who first attend his free seminars hear a motivational mantra that promises that they can achieve what he calls "Harmonic Wealth" - on a financial, mental, physical spiritual level.

            But his technique is not just motivational speaking. It's a combination of new age spiritualism, American Indian ritual, astrology and numerology. The sweat lodge experience was intended to be an almost religious awakening for the participants.

            Ray uses free seminars to recruit people to his expensive seminars, starting with $4,000 three-day "Quantum Leap" workshops and moving on to the weeklong $5,300 "Practical Mysticism" events and the $9,000-plus "Spiritual Warrior" retreats like the one that led to the sweat lodge tragedy.

            About 50 people attended the retreat near Sedona, the center of the new-age movement where practitioners draw energy from the surrounding Red Rocks and various vortexes to heal others.

            Sweat lodges, commonly used by American Indian tribes, also can be part of the healing process. Stones are heated up outside a lodge, brought inside and placed in a pail-sized hole. The door is closed, and water is poured on the stones, producing heat aimed at releasing toxins in the body.

            The ceremonies have been part of Ray's "Spiritual Warrior" retreats for years.

            Few details of what actually transpired during the two hours participants were inside the 415-square foot sweat lodge have emerged. Sheriff's deputies in Yavapai County are investigating whether Ray or his staff may have been criminally negligent. No charges have been filed.

            The Rev. Meredith Ann Murray spent three hours in a sweat lodge led by Ray in 2007 that she said was done safely and helped her conquer claustrophobia.

            "You're warned about all the possible things that might happen, how to take care of yourself, how to listen to your body," said the 56-year-old real estate agent from Bellingham, Wash. "I've done some amazing things I never thought I could do."

            But in 2005, during a previous "Spiritual Warrior" retreat at the same resort, a man had to be taken to the hospital after falling unconscious during a sweat lodge ceremony.

            Ray, 51, grew up as the son of a Tulsa preacher. Bored with college, he says he pursued a career as a telemarketer and began leading training classes for his employer, AT&T. He began honing his self-help business in the early 1990s.

            In a 2008 profile in Fortune magazine, Ray said 5,500 people paid for his seminars in 2007. His books also are major sales drivers, and he told the magazine his revenues went from $1 million in 2005 to an estimated $10 million in 2006.

            He soared in popularity after appearing in the 2006's Rhonda Byrne documentary "The Secret," and he later was a guest on "The Oprah Winfrey Show" and "Larry King Live" to promote it. His 2008 book "Harmonic Wealth" made the New York Times bestseller list.

            Whether Ray manages to maintain his success in the wake of the deaths depends in part on his supporters, and how long the tragedy dogs him as he goes from city to city recruiting paying customers for his wealth creation/spiritual harmony philosophy.

            Critics point to the Sedona events as yet more evidence that Ray is a huckster, who, like other motivational speakers, present their philosophies as a magic bullet to all of life's problems.

            "It's honing in on peoples' needs, their hopes and desires, telling them what they want to hear," said Rick Ross, founder of a virtual library of information on controversial groups and movements. "That's how any good con man makes his mark."

            Linda Jackson of Brentwood, Calif., already is looking forward to an event Ray has scheduled in the San Francisco Bay area later this year. The 59-year-old says Ray has a rare gift that coupled with charisma, power and a "walk the talk" attitude only helps mankind.

            Only God knows whether the recent tragedy will help or hurt Ray, she said. "Maybe it was necessary because he has to be cautious about something."

            Ray has no plans to slow down, said his spokesman, Howard Bragman. He'll continue conducting seminars and be a leader, educator and mentor to the thousands who seek his help.

            "One of his messages is about dealing with adversity," he said. "He's very clear and his team is very clear that we're going to continue his important work."


            © Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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            Offline heretik

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            Re: Arizona sweat lodge death toll rises to three
            « Reply #283 on: October 25, 2010, 09:36:31 PM »
            Quote from: "Ursus"
            And... here's another article about this news, this one from The Guardian (UK). It seems to be pretty similar to the one published by CBS News Crimesider:

            -------------- • -------------- • --------------

            guardian.co.uk
            Arizona sweat lodge death toll rises to three
            Woman, 49, dies of multiple organ failure a week after new age ceremony that left two dead
            Associated Press
            Sunday 18 October 2009 16.22 BST


            A third person has died following a ceremony in a so-called "sweat lodge" modelled on Native American traditions.

            A man and a woman died and nearly two dozen people were left needing hospital treatment as a result of the ceremony in Arizona more than a week ago.

            Liz Neuman of Minnesota died on Saturday at an Arizona hospital, Yavapai county sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said.

            The 49-year-old suffered multiple organ damage during the 8 October ceremony at a resort near Sedona, a town 115 miles north of Phoenix that draws many in the new age movement. The lodge forms part of a new age centre which advertises services of "spiritual cleansing."

            Authorities were treating all three deaths as homicides but no charges have been filed.

            Neuman was among more than 50 people crowded inside the sweat lodge run by self-help guru James Arthur Ray.

            The crowd had been packed for up to two hours inside the lodge, which was a little over 1.5m high in its centre and less than 1m high at the sides.

            An emergency call two hours after they entered the lodge reported two people not breathing.

            Twenty-one people were taken to area hospitals with illnesses ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. Kirby Brown, 38, and James Shore, 40, died upon arrival at hospital.

            All the other victims have now been discharged from hospital.

            Authorities have not yet determined what caused the deaths but autopsy results on Brown and Shore will be subject to further testing.

            The Rev Meredith Ann Murray, who has attended Ray's retreats, said Neuman was among Ray's earliest followers and had attended dozens of his events.

            According to Ray's website, Neuman was the leader of the Minneapolis-area "journey expansion team". The teams, developed by Ray's friends and followers around the US, regularly meet to exchange ideas on his principles.

            Ray had rented the Angel Valley Retreat Center for a five-day "spiritual warrior" event that culminated in the sweat lodge ceremony. Participants paid between $9,000 (£5,500) and $10,000 to attend.

            Ray declined to be interviewed by the sheriff's office on the night of the incident and Arizona authorities said he had not spoken to them as of Thursday. But, in a public appearance in Los Angeles, Ray told a crowd of about 200 that he had hired his own investigative team to determine what went wrong.

            His spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said Ray's team and his lawyer are cooperating with the sheriff's investigators.

            More than 100 people attended the funeral for Brown on Saturday at Holy Name of Jesus Church in Otisville, New York, said The Times Herald-Record newspaper. The avid hiker and surfer was remembered as a spiritual seeker.

            Services for Shore were held on Saturday afternoon in Milwaukee.


            guardian.co.uk © Guardian News and Media Limited 2010

            How do you explain to people they don't need someone like James Ray and his price tag $9000.00. That the peace they are looking for is free, you can "sweat" for free, safely. I don't get it.
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            Offline Ursus

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            Comments: "Sweat lodge deaths cast negative spotlight..."
            « Reply #284 on: October 25, 2010, 11:32:23 PM »
            Comments left for the above article, "Sweat lodge deaths cast negative spotlight on guru" (by Felicia Fonseca and Bob Christie, 10/17/2009, The Daily Courier/AP):


            Article comment by: Mr. Ray is guilty · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              He's going to be convicted of criminal negligence resulting in manslaughter and go to prison is my prediction. Why do I predict that? Because there's no way that 3 previosly healthy people can die within 2 hours if there was not something seriously wrong inside that sweatlodge. You put those 60 on a bus ride to Phoenix and are 3 going to die? Of course not. I think those 60 people consumed too much of the oxygen inside and their tissues became hypoxic and they had brain damage and organ damage. I think putting 60 people into a 20 X 20 low ceiling home made sweatlodge is negligent. I think this guy suggested that they do this and implied that it was safe. He was very wrong. His financial empire is over and he will go to prison. You heard it here first.
            Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              Although some of them are quite wealthy and rather accomplished in their careers, I still feel a true sense of pitty for those who would actually seek out a better life by attending something such as this. That seems like a real lost person who will spend such large amounts of money to go and be purely miserable for days on end in order to "cleanse" or "heal" themselves spiritually. In fact, it's pathetic. To seek clarity and purpose in one's life by suffering through some daily torture sessions because some guy says it's the way to do it, is a virtually mindless process.
            Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              Really? This guy is a coward and snake oil salesman
            Article comment by: outraged · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              Unfortunately, the tears of James Arthur Ray will not undo the damage that he has done, three deaths now as the result of his reckless "leading". I agree that he does not need to be leading anyone at anything right now.
            Article comment by: Jeff · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              I figured out how I can supplement my retirement! I can go to Sedona twist myself around, call myself a vortex and boneheads from all over can pay to "experience" whatever it is you experience from vortexs. Good thing Kool Aid wasn't served by this so called guru. Are people really this gullible?
            Article comment by: R · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              It is disturbing in the extreme that in this country if a man like this can manage to get on the Oprah Winfrey or Larry King show it immediately lends him some unearned seal of approval and credibility. And I am constantly amazed at the huge number of needy, weak, trusting souls out there that so yearn for success and inner peace and power that they will still hop on this guy's very lucrative bandwagon even after he has snuffed three of his followers. What a world we live in!
            Article comment by: [email protected] · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              Great con man. "I don't know how to deal with it , really". I thought his pitch was to help people in all of life's areas but now he doesn't know how to deal with it? This punk was supposed to have all the answers!! He best start selling all the books & tapes for the settlements will be coming. Go to So Cal where you belong!
            Article comment by: Paul · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              Bad news for Ray.. the death toll is up to 3 folks now! I sure hope this mounting pressure doesn't collapse this precious man's ability to do good. Not!
            Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              I think we should wait to see what exactly happened on that unfortunate day. Why are we always so quick to blame. It would be nice to hear from someone who was actually there to see what actually happened. James Ray has inspired a lot of people. I do not believe he has ever told anyone that his "words" would free them. This article is very loose and nonfactual. But as we all know, this is The Prescott Daily Courier. How about a hot tip? Something that IS important. Why not follow the story of Joe Cervantes, the child molester that will be going to trial in early 2010? This is something that really needs to be covered correctly.
            Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              Editor, again your headline is a giant understatement.
            Article comment by: question · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              I wonder what he reports and pays in taxes....
            Article comment by: Whoa, this is quite an act. · Posted: Sunday, October 18, 2009
              I just visited his website. Talk about selling a bunch of hooey. Snake oil is too good for this dude, makes Professor Harold Hill (of The Music Man) look like Abraham Lincoln. The seminars are between 4 and 10 grand for 3-6 days each. And there are a lot to choose from. Plus he does a load of "free" 2 hour pitches all over California probably to sell you on a high dollar weekend. I guess if you can get on Oprah and TV shows and pimp your act well enough in books you can get rich quick. He sure did, had his 2 minutes of fame. Time for the courtroom.
            Article comment by: Danny · Posted: Monday, October 19, 2009
              I'm a Native American and have been doing the sweatlodge ceremony for 40 yrs. It is one of our sacred ceremonies. We do not 'charge' people to attend nor do we promise financial wealth. Our Sweatloges is for purification and cleansing the body. We pray to the one Creator Tunkasila Wakan Tanka ( Grandfather, Great Mystery or Spirit). Its sad that there are so many non-Indians who pass themselves off as healers and such who use our religion(s) to make money for themselves. Unfortunately, GREED is a great motivator and. The sad part is is that so many good people are looking for quick ways to financial freedom and physical and spiritual healing, this allows these kinds of charlatans to feed off of these people. Our Native ceremonies are thousands of years old and are not meant to be combined with 'New Age" doctrines or beliefs. I hope people out there learn from this and please keep away from these kinds of people who are not Native American and attempt to use our ceremonies and medicines for their own profit. If you need healing, contact a tribe or Native American elder who can direct you to a reputable medicine man or woman. Ask questions about that persons background and if possible talk to people who have been doctored by that person. Beware of fake medicine people both white and non white. I have yet to meet a non Native who uses Native ceremonies to heal people. It's just unheard of.
            Article comment by: Lost Souls · Posted: Monday, October 19, 2009
              Spirituality and financial gain have never mixed. Always give from the heart and never ask for anything in return. We are all on our own journey.
            Article comment by: It takes two · Posted: Wednesday, October 21, 2009
              The part that never ceases to amaze me is that we feel free to blame others for our own ignorance. What about individual responsibility? I don't disagree this man made himself rich and played off of those that need to find something or someone that makes them whole. I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but I took one look at that tent and knew that could be a dangerous situation. I just don't understand why this is totally his fault - I believe that he should have known or seen the dangers but those that attended should have not been so blind by placing all of their eggs in one basket (an expensive one at that). It is called comparative negligence.


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