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An open discussion about the troubled parent industry

Quote from: "FemanonFatal2.0"

Oh and I vote to change this topic to "Danny B's attitudes on AA border on the absurd...."

 :shamrock:
Femanon do you think you can keep yourself from regressing to your adolescence time and have a big girl conversation. Now you said you were in college, please act like it.
 :shamrock:

Danny

First things first, I am neither 23 nor in college any longer and I haven't "lived at home" since I was 17 years old. For the most part it has been in practice that I have studied this subject both in my personal life and career. I have worked for many years as a caretaker and family mediator/ counselor for special needs kids ages 4 to 18 as well worked with adults of many ages, most of which is volunteered time for various women and children's shelters, and yes, even a few drug rehabs and group homes for teens. This isn't just a class for me, it's a passion. I am fortunate enough to have a work schedule that allows me time to have such a rewarding hobby, I don't claim to be professional yet, but I consider this a great way to continue studying the human condition.

I will agree with you, I have definitely  generalized my statements and I will be the first to tell you that there is no such thing as black and white... I have plenty of friends currently in AA and I enjoy their presence just as much as I do those who are not in the program. My problem is not necessarily with the people of AA, its mostly with the doctrine and the way certain practices are common place, when in a professional therapeutic setting, these practices would be avoided at all costs.

Please forgive my tendency to use my education as a comparison to the experiences I have had with different treatment methods... In my opinion that is just how one would better themselves and god forbid challenge the current policies in hopes that a more successful technique be created. I think it takes people standing up and asking questions (even generalized ones) in order to break the mode and make some progress. It's only those who are so deeply rooted in their beliefs that don't give people a chance to step in and make any suggestions. Truth be told I would still be going to AA if it were more like a support group and a lot less like a cult.

I do not generalize out of ignorance, simply put, I already ramble on and on and I don't really have the time or patience to dive into the specifics of my issues with AA, maybe I'll make an effort next time but at this point I just don't see what good it would do to attach a disclaimer to every statement I make about it not being applicable to EVERYONE EVERYWHERE. You'd think it would be common sense but can we just go ahead and make that assumption in the future?... thanks.

As far as me actually being an expert, I guess I must clarify that that was me just being facetious... in no way would I EVER claim to be an expert in AA... I'm just saying I had my fair share of an experience, and that is what has lead me to the qualms I have. Sure, you could say I was forced... but truth be told at that point in my life I was actually convinced that I was an addict and if I didn't go to those meetings I would fall back into that whole "druggie lifestyle" we talked about... well it took me some time but I came to a realization, I'm not going to perpetrate that what I believe is "right" in my case is "right" for all, but I believe I now have a more logical, less program/AA influenced opinion. I have shared this opinion with you and you may not agree, but what troubles me is that you infer I am being illogical, when ironically it is the nonsensical nature of AA/NA that I am attempting to point out. You say my "broad interpretations of AA are comical"... Well, that's good to hear because some of the things I say are meant to be comical, some things are just not meant to be taken literally or assumed to be absolute. Again, just another thing I like to leave up to common sense.

Like I said, I don't really have time to get into the specifics... another time perhaps... but hey, don't get so bent outta shape about what I think... you can take it or leave it I'm not forcing my beliefs on anyone.

Quote from: "Pile of Dead Kids"

Well I'll ask you “Whooter” for your qualifications that you use to argue against :
Dr. Josef Mengele
Doctor of Anthropology
Doctor of Medicine
Iron Cross First Class

I know your qualifications don't come anywhere near close to this. Do YOU have two doctorates and a high military medal? No? Then who are you to question him?

Dr. Josef Mengele !!!
If he were speaking about anthropology or his field of medicine I could not step up and challenge his expertise because I don’t have a background in that area, Pile.  I don’t think you or many of the readers her could either.

If you are referring to how he used his expertise for evil purposes then it shows that evil has no class system (or boundaries) and can occur in complete cross-sections from maintenance people to presidents.  Look at Hitler himself!!  He was no better.  Which relates right back to a former post stating that Horst Köhler isn’t necessarily evil just because he attained the same position as Hitler did.  Each person can utilize their powers however they choose to.  Not all people with a background in anthropology are evil.  Not all program directors, presidents, educational consultants, doctors, teachers, fornits posters etc. are evil.  But we have all seen that some can be.  Every person is different and the job they attain "does not" define them, their actions define their job.

I have been posting and reading here a long time and I think where people get off track here is when they assume that  just because they had a staff person who was evil then it is acceptable to conclude that all staff people are that way.  I see this everyday here on fornits where survivors have a hard time seeing that their personal experience just isn’t the same as the next guy who progressed thru a program.  They may have had better staff people or connected better in their program. But Life just isn’t that simple to assume everyone/everything is the same.  

But on a softer note I do agree with many here and think the reference to Mengele is funny as it relates back to my original analogy of prewar Germany.



...

It doesn't matter if the staff was evil or good if they aren't qualified to be working with special needs kids then it is the program directors who need to be held responsible for cutting such corners. Cold hard facts here, NONE and I mean NONE of the staff at the school I went to were even closely qualified for the position they filled, not a goddamn one. This is the problem here, you assume we are bitching and moaning about all this because were butt-hurt about a specific event, wrong! We are addressing a multitude of widespread and significant problems within a majority of these programs, one of which is that they do not have appropriate hiring and training standards for the staff they employ.

Whooter, do you ever listen to a word I say? It seems as if, despite your countless years here on fornits that you are incapable of grasping this very specific concept... These programs do not adequately self regulate and this means that methods and polices employed by these programs tend to not only become unethical, dangerous, irresponsible and suspecious but they have too many times lead to corruption, abuse and even death. I know you are a program supporter and this concept is easy to evade due to your loyalties, but just for a second can you consider that all we want is for kids to be safe in programs?... we're not out here whining for sympathy we are calling for the changes that are so direly needed! People like you who are connected to the industry should be glad we are here giving the programs feedback, and if the program directors and NATSAP dooshbags didn't have their heads so far up their asses maybe this information could help them develop a better system... But noooooo were all just liars and exaggerators right?

2nd reply......Femanon you don't belong there so it will sound that way, it's like Country Music some folks here, "she left me boo hoo hooo" I here beautiful melodies and strings the older the better. Conway Twitty, George Jones, Johnny Cash, Jr, Wylon Jenning ect.....sweet music.
Hang around long enough here you will be singing another tune. People change and in AA those whiners after a while they stop and life gets better. So there is nothing to complain about.
I don't know who told you "that everytime you talk about your past it damages your psyche" but they ought to stop....lol.
Like I said your hearing what your hearing and that person sharing is hearing what they need to hear.
Did or have you ever considered this may be helping that person.
 :shamrock:
Danny

I just wrote a long reply, then it got deleted by my browser... not to mention I'm really not sure I should even be wasting my time with this response in the first place, so forgive me if I sound a bit annoyed.

You want to know who told me?... My psychology professor! it's called retraumatization and it is not only detrimental but it's also has the power to take over ones personality and in some cases lead the subject back into self sabotaging behaviors and even violence.

Not sure if you've ever taken a psychology class before in your life but this is a common theme with survivors of traumatic events, and I don't believe it would be a stretch to say addicts fit in this category as well. I have witnessed it first hand, not only with friends (especially program survivors) but with in my family as well, in fact I'm pretty sure this condition is exactly what lead to my cousin committing suicide.

Let's not pretend that because you go to AA that you are some kind of expert, because clearly you are not and in my opinion, because of your ranting and raving here on fornits you are only leading those who are on the fence to discredit you and AA simply because you are the one advocating it. I'm not trying to be rude, nor do I have anything personal against you... as I hope you can tell I like to stay out of the personal drama and stick to discussing the points... But the fact that you have been so one sided, and unwilling to even consider logical reasoning makes us all sick and tired of trying to have a debate with you... it's like screaming at a brick wall :wall:  :wall:  :wall:  :wall:

I don't know how much you may know about other programs, but the program I was in DRILLED AA/NA into our heads... I feel like if there are any experts on AA it should be me... At High Impact we literally listened to the BIG BOOK on tape (over and over again) and took tests on it... there came a point where I didn't even have to listen to the question before I knew the answer. I attended hundreds of meetings in my day, in fact it was something of a stipulation for me to not get sent back to casa to go to no less than 3 a week... I've seen it all, and done it all and because of that experience these are the questions I have. If the answer to those questions are just "you don't belong there so it will sound that way" then I believe that in and of itself proves my point.

AA is nothing but a watered down cult perpetrated by the self righteous zealots and drug war politicians... None of it makes sense, in fact most of it is ass backwards and NO ONE should consider AA/NA a legitimate "treatment" for alcoholism or drug addiction... quite frankly it pisses me off that there are so many people who are really in need of help and this is all they can get.

That being said, I am glad you have found the personal strength to improve your life, be it with the help of AA or not you have accomplished a truly remarkable feat and I commend you for that... I wouldn't be so quick to pass off the credit to AA tho, I would be very adimit to say that you and you alone earned the credit. In fact I bet you could leave AA right now and as long as you have faith in yourself and don't question your strength without AA you would be just fine without it.

I hope you don't mind but I've said all I can say here, and it looks like you are all too busy bickering to really debate this subject so I think its best if I just leave it well alone. Best of luck to you.

 :rasta:  :rasta:  :rasta:  :rasta:  :rasta:

Why thank you, I appreciate your honesty and the time you took to answer my questions. but honestly it would really help a lot if you would be willing to utilize the quote feature... if you need some guidance as to how to do so feel free to pm me or hell even start a new thread...

What I have a hard time understanding is why a doctrine that encourages you to believe you are powerless has any positive effect on your willpower to stay sober. In fact, I'm almost positive that way of thinking greatly contributes to the failure of so many addicts that have attended these meetings.

The only time powerless comes into play for me is when I take that first drink then I don't know what's going to happen next. When I am under the influence of Alcohol I am powerless. That is my interpretation. Otherwise I have power lots of it, the power to make choices ect....

okay, I can dig that, I think many of us have experienced something along those lines... but in my studies and participation in AA/NA there was a bit more to this notion, it really ties into the whole disease concept which serves to both summon a lack of self belief and deflect personal responsibility. How many people in AA/NA tell their stories and refer to themselves as a monster when under the influence? well I hate to break it to you but alcohol doesn't have the power to turn good people into monsters, that side of you is part of who you are and your choices under the influences are still very much your choices. You can't claim to have a disease and be excused for those actions, just the same as you can't murder someone and find Jesus and be forgiven... I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but you can't change the past and making excuses for it isn't going to make it okay. If anyone came up to me and told me it was part of their program to make amends to me I would tell them that forgiveness is earned, not asked for.

I guess it doesn't help that I am also not a fan of organized religion and can really only view AA/NA as a modern day attempt at religious conquest. I find the idea that the only thing that can keep a man sober is some imaginary being quite disturbing and frankly illogical when the man is the only one who can choose to drink the booze.

Naa then you haven't been to a lot of meeting most of us cannot stand organized religion, I personally am nondenominational, I more believe a spirit that the native Indians believe then I do anything else. Believing in something greater then myself or yourself is as old as the universe. It is very simple for me Femanon, When a man is in the grips of Alcoholism or hard core drug dependency it is going to take a lot more than making a decision to help you come through. Doctors, nurses, counselors, Hospital care, detox and medication maybe. Well all of that is more powerful then you. Because if you're sick, "the sick cannot get the sick healthy". I've tried. So there is so much in this life of ours that is more powerful than me so therefore I am powerless over it. Not a illogical, disturbing, frightening or imaginary belief.

Well I agree that an addict needs and should reach out for outside help and support, but what does god have to do with it? Forgive my "extreme beliefs" but isn't god just like Santa Claus for grownups? and why do you have to have the threat of hell in your heart to be a good person? isn't just being a good person, enjoying your life, friends and family a good enough reason to stay on a healthy path in life. Now I know you say you are nondenominational, and I know they word it as "higher power" in order to include those of you who are not particularly religious, but you must realize that AA is an organized religion in and of itself. It originated as a work pertaining to Christian faith and it has been modified over the years to be able to include people like you in hopes that you may be vulnerable enough to convert. I've seen it myself, good friend of mine actually... had the same conversation with her and she even admitted she had no intention of becoming Christian or going to church before she got involved with AA/NA... that's how they getcha... AA or death = Jesus or hell
 

... I wasn't inferring that I don't have my own "addictions" but I do not claim to be diseased, from what I understand, those are called "impulses" and they are things I can learn to control with will power and intent. I would find it very difficult to ever expect to look outside myself for control over my own emotions and surely not my decision making.

No I don't buy into that either the disease explanation. Whoa Femonon you have to understand that my explanations will always be based on, "while I am under the influence of alcohol". I don't have any will power, sense of morality, control of intent. Alcohol is a drug I think everyone forgets that sometimes. Which I believe effects us all differently, in my case most disturbing. While your drunk I don't think you should be looking outside yourself you might throw up on your buddy...lol.

So it seems what your telling me is that AA has a take it or leave it policy with the 12 steps?... The problem with the powerlessness belief be it under the influence or because you are supposedly an alcoholic for life, is that it sets a state of mind that you are not in control of your life... although I have to agree with you that many things in this world are simply not within our reach to control, I must disagree that one is not in control of their impulses, under the influence or not, your choices are still your choices. One cannot lose their morality due to the ingestion of a substance, one may lose their will power, but that too is still under your control. This notion that you are powerless or lacking in control is really quite defeatist and in my opinion detrimental. In my opinion the addicted persons should be indoctrined with a mantra of self regulation, complete responsibility for ones actions and the fortunate truth that we all have what it takes to make our lives better... Addicts for the most part of their lives have felt powerless, what is the point in reinforcing those slippery self destructive beliefs when you should be empowering each other, and learning to trust and believe in yourself.

.... a few with legitimate addictive personalities and believe it or not I've met several people who just crave the "druggie" lifestyle... does this mean they are all diseased?

I won't agree with you that anybody in their right mind enjoys the "druggie lifestyle". They are on the druggie maintenance program...lol. If you know what I mean.

well, this might just be a disconnection between our generation because there are PLENTY of people my age who LOVE the party scene, and the lifestyle that comes with drugs and drinking... It becomes a big part of their personality, and that in and of itself prevents them from wanting to get sober.
 

... I would picture someone with a bonafide addictive disorder to be in great need of some in depth personal therapy, not just a meeting to listen to other people bitch about how they fucked up their lives. Because for people like this, just abstaining from their drug of choice is NOT going to "save their lives", it takes a total life change.

...Now Now we are not sitting around bitching and if you are, shame on you. You are right everything has to change; Persons, Places and things if you want to get off drugs and alcohol.

LOL then what ARE you doing in AA? Because I've been to my fair share of meetings, and that is EXACTLY what those people are doing. It's quite annoying if you ask me... As if they have nothing better to do with their lives than to wallow in their old druggie stories and complain about their constant craving. I honestly feel like most of these people should be seeing a therapist because the atmosphere of the meetings is only keeping them in their shit. I feel it is much more healthy to just seek help, learn some tools and move on, don't keep coming back telling the same ol cautionary tale... as much as you may think it's helping other people to see how bad it got for you it's damaging to your psyche to be reliving those memories every time you speak out at a meeting. I don't have a problem with those who have found success going back to support those who need help, but I think drug therapy should be focused on learning and teaching coping skills not divulging your deepest darkest secrets to a room full of strangers. That to me just screams catholic confession... go ahead do 3 hail marys, it won't mean shit but hell you'll feel better right?

Welcome James...

Glad to see you so motivated after all these years, its quite commendable.

just fyi, we do have a considerable amount of industry trolls here from time to time, so you may want to reconsider using your real name...

I think it is passion for what you believe in and some people go to extremes to defend what they believe.  To be fair survivors tend to be just as passionate and some get defensive if someone points out to them that they had a choice, when they were in the program, to be successful or to fail.  
...

Well here's the thing, in context, I may be inclined to agree with you... considering the fact that both survivors and supporters are inherently human, I think it's fair to assume we all can get defensive of our beliefs from time to time. The only difference is, with survivors we have something to complain about because they were legitimately wronged, where as supporters only defense is to tell us were are lying... or in your words exaggerating. I've had this same exact conversation with program supporters, and ed-cons too, and it really comes down to this... Our experience isn't the only thing that shapes our opinion, our level of comprehension does as well. I find that many of those who have support for the program, be it from the experience of a former student or parent or ed-con usually they let their tunnel vision guide them to believe that the ends justifies the means and refuse to look analytically at the specific methods employed by these programs. I think dysfunction junction hit the nail on the head when he said that most supporters don't realize that there is no legitimate science behind the methodology of a program (or AA for that matter). In fact in most professional opinions, these techniques can range from cult-like quackery up to legitimate torture. Those who obtain a level of loyalty to the program tend to either have a financial interest or are too prideful to even be willing to consider the possibility that they were expertly conned. Although both sides cling vehemently to their convictions, you must understand that the motivating reasons behind our opinions are vastly different.

I can understand that a parent who had a child in a program, assuming they had a decent experience and found legitimate success after the program would be able to come to the conclusion that the program "works" but the problem with this is that such a blinding belief system deters you from looking beyond the surface. If you feel you were not wronged by a program what need would you have to analyze and research the specific methods used? Or look into the credentials of those who treated your child or study the track record of that particular company... For example, the fact that WWASP has now had 14 schools shut down for abuse should really deter parents from enrolling their kids, yet people still do, everyday. I really have to question the logic of such a parent, either be it ignorance or malice, to put their child in such a potentially dangerous situation. Consider this, when a restaurant in my city had a minor case of hepatitis people freaked out, and most people I know vowed to never eat there again, which although unfortunate for said restaurant is pretty normal human behavior. But consider if this restaurant were a BIG franchise and over the years had multiple locations shut down by the health department and consumer groups created specifically to oppose said franchise you would think that would signal that there is something legitimately wrong with the way this franchise does business, right? Well why is it so different for WWASP? What is the life blood that keeps this company afloat? is it their mega marketing scheme? no, it's their followers, those who swear up and down that WWASP was the only thing that could have saved the life of their child... well I'm sorry but even if I had no personal experience with the program at all, that right there would seem fishy. With that said, That's really not the worst of it, what is truly sad, and I've said it before and I'll say it again, is that the only reason former students, parents or ed-cons could possibly come to such a conclusion is because they were successfully conned into believing  that for something the teen did or might have done in the future, they deserved to be stripped of their human rights, be subjected to abuse and or maltreatment and all for a price that could rival tuition for an ivy league education.

another point I'd like to mention, do you really think that those of us that speak out are only those who "failed" in the program? Because I personally know several former students who not only graduated but also chose to go work for the program only to come to the realization later that what they thought was treatment back then was really an elaborate con by unprofessional religious zealots. I can only speak for myself, because I saw it from day one, while I was in the program I made note of each and every thing that I knew to be illegal and unethical and I made my observations known. It goes without saying that not everyone was as perceptive, but on some level, we all knew there was something wrong with that place. The problem is, these places are constantly conditioning their subjects to adhere to a specific belief system, and if that belief system is questioned there are serious consequences for those who step out of line. Does that mean I "failed" at the program? Actually I'm pretty sure I learned a lot while confined, maybe not what they were trying to teach me but for all intensive purposes I do consider myself a success, not at the program but at life. I don't have a drug problem and I have kept myself out of trouble, I have a considerably lucrative career and some very important hobbies, one of which is this cause. I don't claim to be perfect however I do believe that I would fit into the criteria of a "success story" even though I would be considered to have "failed" the program. You make a good argument by saying we all have choices, and one way or another we got ourselves where we are, in the grand scheme of things I would agree for the simple fact that I do believe everything, even the bad stuff, happens for a reason. However I believe strongly that just because life rolls on doesn't mean that those people and institutions that have done considerable harm to me and others should be absolved of their wrong doings. I am a firm believer that we both make and give our own karma, it's human nature to want to enact revenge on those who have wronged us and created havoc in our lives, and although I do not support employing violence I believe it is the responsibility of the victims to stand up and cry out for justice to be served. For all intensive purposes I also think it's our responsibility to hold our government responsible for not regulating these places, providing a breeding ground for corruption and abuse. Furthermore it's about time we call for absolute abolishment of the harmful techniques employed by these programs. As if the standing laws against child abuse aren't clear enough, it seems we need to spell it out for these people.

Of course I've gone off on a tangent about programs, and this doesn't exactly apply to AA but I believe the principal remains the same... “Nothing in the world is more dangerous than a sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.” MLK Jr.

Hello, my name is fem

and I'm a chapstickaholic.

Interesting thread... good points from both sides of the fence.

I think I'll keep my 2 cents short for once... I'm not necessarily against AA/NA, simply put, I feel that the AA doctrine is a bit illogical.

That being said, what is truly unfortunate is that there arent any trusted alturnitives to rival AA/NA. I'm sure somewhere out there it exists but I just don't understand how out of all possibilities for treatment of addiction THIS is the most popular...

I did some research on that "rational recovery" mumbo jumbo and I have to say, although it seems to have cut the fat so to speak, its still a watered down version of AA.

Call me an idealist but wouldn't it just make sense to apply some good ol fashioned analytical psychology to the treatment of addiction? Why does it always have to be one size fits all? I would picture someone with a bonafide addictive disorder to be in great need of some in depth personal therapy, not just a meeting to listen to other people bitch about how they fucked up their lives. Because for people like this, just abstaining from their drug of choice is NOT going to "save their lives", it takes a total life change.

I've seen many different sides of what has been labeled by AA to be the "disease concept", I've seen many people self medicate due to pre-existing disorders, a few with legitimate addictive personalities and believe it or not I've met several people who just crave the "druggie" lifestyle... does this mean they are all diseased? I think there needs to be further study into this concept, considering addiction was only categorized as a disease so that it could be treatable instead of punishable, I think AA kind of ran away with that one trying to give creditability to the whole "powerless" pretense.

I have to say tho, in all honesty my heart goes out to those who are truly affected by such a burden, to feel utterly powerless to something is no laughing matter and not everyone has the mental strength to go at something as powerful as human impulse alone. I have no intention of making fun of the plight of those affected by addiction, in fact all I would hope for is to help by encouraging those who want to recover to EMPOWER themselves and to believe that all the strength they need can be found within themselves... not in a book, or at a meeting or with believing in some kind of imaginary friend, but instead the answers have always been in their hearts and minds.

 :rose:  :rose:  :rose:  :rose:  :rose: