When exactly Rome began crucifixion, I don't know. But back when David was writing the psalms, there was no Rome, and no notion of crucifixion. And yet, David, inspired by the Holy Sprit, gave a perfect description of what it feels like to be crucified. I think that is very significant.
I personally do not believe, as you do, that the gospel accounts of Christ's crucifixion were written to describe the 22ed psalm; Or Isaiah 53; But I knew you would make that argument with regard to the words from the cross and the solders gambling. What for me is undeniable evidence of the Holy Spirit's influencing the words of David, is the accurate description of the pains of crucifixion - long before anyone was crucified and able to report first hand what it was like; some One Thousand Years before Jesus was walking the streets of Jerusalem.
In my opinion, your comparing the disciples to Joseph Smith or Mohamed is considerably flawed. The disciples were relating first hand accounts that were very likely to get them arrested, tortured and murdered. There was no earthly reason to do this. No power or wealth would result.
The same can not be said of the others you list.
The comparison with the radical Islamist seems especially absurd to me. They seek out their own deaths so as to cause death for many more. The disciples did no such thing - they sought to bring life; and were willing to face painful death to do it. I contend they would not have done this for a lie or a myth.
The kamikazes? Well, judging from the accounts given by Japanese survivors of WWII, they mostly didn't want to do that- but their culture was such that they faced ruined if they didn't - so they more or less had no choice. So, this ia also an inapropreate comparison.
Frankly, I don't think there is anything to compare with the change in the disciples behavior after the resurrection.
Something changed them. Something sudden and radical, that turned a bunch of trembling, frightened, defeated men, into bold, unwavering, proclaimers of the Gospel. In my opinion, that something is the fact of the Risen Lord.
Greg, you seem to put a lot of faith in the late dating of the gospel accounts. I can't think why. It seems understandable enough to me that the first (and so oldest) accounts would be pretty much disintegrated by the passing of time. I don't think we can expect to be able to find them; or to prove their age if we did. When the various books were written, and by whom, is a topic of constant debate. Personally, I feel the authors can be believed - and I do believe them. I don't much care when they wrote - but I don't believe it was at as late a date as your sources claim.
As to the Unicorn - there is a great deal of debate on what the animal actually was; tho it is understandable why the King James translators used the word Unicorn in their translations. It seems some argument can be made that some such creature did exist; and apparently, the Unicorn best fits the idea of it, when translating the text into old English.
Quote:
III. It was an early opinion, and the opinion was probably entertained by the authors of the Septuagint translation, and by the English translators as well as by others, that the animal here referred to was the unicorn. This animal was long supposed to be a fabulous animal, and it has not been until recently that the evidences of its existence have been confirmed. These evidences are adduced by Rosenmuller, "Morgenland, ii. p. 269, following," and by Prof. Robinson, "Calmet, pp. 908,909." They are, summarily, the following:
(1) Pliny mentions such an animal, and gives a description of it, though from his time for centuries it seems to have been unknown. "His. Nat. 8,21." His language is, Asperrimam autem feram monocerotem reliquo corpore equo similem, capite cervo, pedibus elephanti, cauda apro, mugitu gravi, uno cornu nigro media fronte cubitorum duum eminente. IIanc feram vivam negant capi. "The unicorn is an exceeding fierce animal, resembling a horse as to the rest of his body, but having the head like a stag, the feet like an elephant, and the tail like a wild boar; its roaring is loud; and it has a black horn of about two cubits projecting from the middle of the forehead."
(2) The figure of the unicorn, in various attitudes, according to Niebuhr, is depicted on almost all the staircases in the ruins of Persepolis. "Reisebeschreib. ii. S. 127."
(3) In 1530, Ludovice de Bartema, a Roman patrician, visited Mecca under the assumed character of a Mussulman, and among other curiosities that he mentions, he says, "On the other side of the caaba is a walled court, in which we saw two unicorns that were pointed out to us as a rarity; and they are indeed truly remarkable. The larger of the two is built like a three-year-old colt, and has a horn upon the forehead about three ells long. This animal has the color of a yellowish-brown horse, a head like a stag, a neck not very long, with a thin mane; the legs are small and slender like those of a hind or roe; the hoofs of the fore feet are divided, and resemble the hoofs of a goat. Rosenmuller. "Alte u. neue Morgenland, No. 377. Thes ii. S. 271, 272."
(4) Don Juan Gabriel, a Portuguese colonel, who lived several years in Abyssinia, assures us that in the region of Agamos, in the Abyssinian province of Darners, he had seen an animal of the form and size of a middle-sized horse, of a dark, chestnut-brown color, and with a whitish horn about five spans long upon its forehead; the mane and tail were black, and the legs long and slender. Several other Portuguese, who were placed in confinement upon a high mountain in the district Namna, by the Abyssinian king Saghedo, related that they had seen at the mountain several unicorns feeding. These accounts are confirmed by Lobe, who lived for a long time as a missionary in Abyssinia.
(5) Dr. Sparrman the Swedish naturalist, who visited the Cape of Good Hope and the adjacent regions in 1772-1776, gives, in his Travels, the following account: Jacob Kock an observing peasant on Hippopotamus river, who had traveled over a considerable part of Southern Africa, found on the face of a perpendicular rock, a drawing made by the Hotttentots of an animal with a single horn. The Hottentots told him that the animal there represented was very like the horse on which he rode, but had a straight horn upon the forehead. They added, that these one-horned animals were rare; that they ran with great rapidity, and that they were very fierce.
End quote
Most contend the actual animal was a rhinoceros; others think a large antelope. What ever it was, it was large, and very wild (never domesticated) and powerful - with a horn or horns.
As for the historical record - More and more evidence is being found that the people and places of the Bible did exist and that the Biblical history is accurate. For example:
The book is entitled A Test of Time: The Bible From Myth to History (Century Publishers, Lon don, 1995). It was written by an Egyptologist by the name of David Rohl who is currently completing his doctoral thesis at University College in London. The book was converted by the BBC into a highly ac claimed television series called, "Pharaohs and Kings." The book has not yet been published in the United States, but it is scheduled for publication in July by Random House under the title, Pharaohs and Kings.
Link to article about this:
http://www.lamblion.com/articles/other/ ... /RI-19.php[ This Message was edited by: BuzzKill on 2005-05-13 08:35 ]