Cross Creek Manor - Report of abuse

[Anonymous]

On 2005-04-30 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Sorry about the listen to my words stuff -



Would someone just all of a sudden want to hit my kid without provocation?  More than likely not.  So what if he provoked it, he could do that very well, in fact.  Doesn't mean that he needed his ass kicked by another student.  Though, he probably would have kicked ass just as hard.



Physical fights are not allowed and restraining to stop it is okay in my view if the dear boys didn't stop on their own.



They don't accept mentally ill kids, so the possibility of a kid just all of a sudden turning violent is unusual.



I know of a girl several years ago, upper level, who just freaked out one night and stabbed a girl in her room. THe girl lived, but they have done a lot of changing since then.  They require psych evals now before they are admitted. I don't know much about this particular girl and why no one ever saw she was capable of this.  It took everyone by surprise.     "

ANYONE is "capable of this" if you put them under enough stress.

Anyone.

It is telling to me that you blame the state of the girl ("this particular girl...was capable...") instead of blaming the extreme psychological stress of the seminars, which this "upper level" girl had certainly gone through, which--according to the parents that posted their time in the parent seminars were done by persons unlicensed in psychology or psychiatry, with no licensed persons on site, with no safety plan, with no pre-screening, and used extreme (in my opinion) coercive persuasion to destabilize the subject's worldview into one in which there is no right and no wrong and just "what works"---that the end justifies the means.

When you do that to people, you have a certain percentage of psychiatric casualties.

Not all of the psychiatric casualties are merely dangerous to themselves.

When you plant deadly nightshade, you shouldn't be surprised when wheat isn't what comes up out of the ground.

No amount of "prescreening" will weed out the psychiatric casualties caused by the kinds of extreme psychological stress caused in a coercive persuasion environment *after* the kid walks in the door.

In my opinion, based on the parent accounts of the first Discovery seminar that had a link posted here recently, the seminars use the types of techniques proven (repeatedly) to cause a certain percentage of serious and dangerous psychiatric casualties.

It doesn't surprise me in the least that the child who did this was an "upper level" and hence had already been subjected to several of the seminars and who knows what all else.

Timoclea

[Antigen]

On 2005-04-30 18:26:00, Anonymous wrote:


They don't accept mentally ill kids, so the possibility of a kid just all of a sudden turning violent is unusual.

So then you don't believe Perrigaud and Amanda? Cause they both describe themselves as having been deeply depressed, near suicidal when they went to CCM.

If the WWASP treatment is not intended for mentally ill kids, then who is it intended for? Kids w/ no problems? That doesn't even make sense.

And how do you feel about the alleged adults in charge tackling a kid to the floor, not for violence or threatening violence against anyone at all, but merely for attempting to reach an out of order pay phone?

Perri admits that that's not at all out of line w/ her experience of CCM. When I asked her about it she said something like "Well, we were on lock down, so too bad for that kid."

Do you think that's right? To tackle a kid for trying to get to a phone? Do you think it's therapeutic in some way?

The graduate with a Science degree asks, "Why does it work?"
The graduate with an Engineering degree asks, "How does it work?"
The graduate with an Accounting degree asks, "How much will it cost?"
The graduate with a Liberal Arts degree asks, "Do you want fries with that?"
--Anonymous

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
return undef() if /coercion/i;

[RN on Board]

The children should have access to the phone. Even prisoners get to use the phone once in awhile to make collect calls.  These facilities are much worse than prisons.  They are not therapeutic.  They are much to abusive and punitive to be "treating" children with depressioin.

[Perrigaud]

Hmm. Hope I come out of the evil shadows of WWASP? Don't. Save your pity for those who want and need it. I don't want it nor do I need it.
Never have and never will.
The proof is in how I live my life.  :rofl: Happy, successful, peaceful...it's nice.

Antigen,
  Seminars? Perception. It's about how you perceive and experience things. What I may find fun may be horrible to someone else. That's why I speak of my experience and not others. No, I don't think of it as abuse.

Program apologist...call me what you wish. CCM and other "cults" are going down? Well ok. So are the parenting skills. As long as people keep getting lazy (not to say all parents who send their kids are lazy) there will be an industry such as this.

I pray you all will be able to seperate the true b/s from the false. Good luck.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-01 15:44:00, RN on Board wrote:

"The children should have access to the phone. Even prisoners get to use the phone once in awhile to make collect calls.  These facilities are much worse than prisons.  They are not therapeutic.  They are much to abusive and punitive to be "treating" children with depressioin.  "

RN, here's the thing. This is why I'm so incredibly skeptical of new regulation actually doing any good.

People often say the Programs should not be located in remote areas. Straight was right downtown. So was The Seed. Just that you'd get tackled if you tried to walk out and hunted down by former inmates, staff and even police if you snuck out. There were phones in the office and in every host home. Just that you'd get tackled if you tried to grab one and we were locked in or, at the least, had motion detectors on the doors so you couldn't get to a phone after everyone fell asleep. At some point, they even hung signs all over the building stating our rights as clients, including the right to call HRS (Floridas CPS in those days) to report abuse. What a joke! Sure, go ahead and call, once you make 4th phase and get to go to school or work.  No one will believe you and you'll be started over and frozen on day one if you try.

The only good that I can see coming out of all of these efforts at regulation is that it does kick up some interest and discussion. People in general need to understand and believe these kids.

Hold on, my friends, to the Constitution and to the Republic
for which it stands. Miracles do not cluster, and what has
happened once in 6000 years, may not happen again. Hold on to
the Constitution, for if the American Constitution should fail,
there will be anarchy throughout the world.

http://www.marshfield.net/History/webster.htm' target='_new'>Daniel Webster

[Anonymous]

Just scanning the posts and I wanted to write a quick retort.
Now about Perrigaud getting money for stating her opinions and beleifs. Thats pretty funny. We are good friends and she has better things to do with her time than be on the WWASP payroll. She has a real job and makes bank actually so she dosnt need WWASPs dirty money. She is just trying to get yall to look at it from her perspective. Just because you dont agree with her dosnt mean shes here to make money. Thats a pretty rude thing to say with no evidence and no actually knowledge of Perrigaud or who she is. So lets drop the whole Perri is on the WWASP payroll because you are wrong.

Since being on this forum, my perspective on WWASP has changed. However I did not experience abuse at CCM while i was there. However I was there for 15 months and before then and after then there very well could have been abuse. The program needs great reform and needs to get new management by a person or persons who actually care about the kids they are helping.

With the seminars, my facilitator was great. Jan was her name. Anyone have complaints about her, because I would be supprised. David Gilcrese sucks booty and needs to go jump in a lake. Im sure no one disagrees there. But I honestly believe depending on the staffers and the facilitator the seminar expereince can be good. Now I never heard anyone get called a slut or a bitch or a coward or any name calling in my seminars wiht Jan. However, with Lou, David, and Bill, there was some. I think Jan really cares about the kids she is helping and it makes a big difference. And if the staffers are bastards and are trying to use their power to harm a kid in a seminar then that is abuse and should be stopped. But the staffers in my seminars were not like that. It is very shocking to me to hear about the stories about CCM. Considering I never expereinced that it is lame to know that CCM is operating like that.

Staff members are another issue. A staff member who is hired simply to control kids is wrong. Many of my staff members were great. I was good friends with them. Some were not great but got fired or quit shortly after they were hired. I think they need a way strict way to hire staff members. Plus I think it should be a requirement that the staff memeber is getting the job because they want to help, not control. The girl who had her hair cut off you know? Nothing even similar to that happened while i was there. The program is constantly changing though. Staff members are hired and fired and therapists quit and new ones are hired, rules are always changing, seminars are changing, ect. But I can say in the short time I was there, I did not expereince abuse. I did not feel, nor do I feel now, that i was harmed by the program. But I can say that others were harmed by it and (you will like this Ginger) that being the case, I cannot support a program that would allow such things. It needs to be shut down. And a new one that is reformed and more helpful and not corrupt needs to be built in its place so that kids that need the help can get it. Im sorry guys but you are wrong about one thing. Paretns are not always responsible for the way a kid turns out. Blaming it all on the parents is an easy answer for you but it simply is just not accurate. Hell Geneticists and Psychologists still argue about if a person turns out the way they do because of nature or nurture, so it woudl be impossible for oyu to say a kid turns out a certain way because of the parents. Most the time the paretns do their best and the kid still turns out a certain way. And not all kids just "grow out of it". I know MANY who have not and many adults who have not either. So some kids yes need more help than others and you cant deny that. So I guess my final points will be

-The program is corrupt and needs to be shut down and revised.

-Despite the corruption, I was not abused mentally, physically, verbally, ect.
 
-Discovery and Focus helped me.

-I believe the abuse and feel for those kids, however I feel it did help me, especially with my family. Now wether or not it was worth it just because it helped me, thats just the facts.

-I appreciate all the knowledge of the program posted here and I appreciate those who are willing to be open to hearing me out. I also appreciate those who can listen and give excellent information and be patient and kind. Ginger, especially you. Well, pretty much only you and sometimes Tim and others, so thanks.

Amanda
"A man may learn wisdom, even from a foe."
Aristophanes

[Perrigaud]

Money? Shit I'd be pretty wealthy. Sorry such is not the case.

What else will you come up with?

[Anonymous]

My only question for you Perri is: if you have inner happiness in your life now why are you always sarcastic and hateful on these forums?

I honestly have never met anyone who claimed "true" happiness and was then so angry. Or is this your definition of happiness? B/c I can't imagine Gahndi saying "shit is that all you can come up with." Or Mother Teresa "You all are a bunch of liars...I know what I saw."

But I can imagine a program counselor saying any of this above...Funny I initially gave consideration to your posts. I often find people who have gone through these programs very caustic in nature, seemingly no difference with you.

[Antigen]

Thanks, Amanda, for your kind words. I don't think I'm the only one around here who's got any respect or compassion. But it's a touchy subject for some and just incomprehensible to others.

I understand why Perri's pissed, too. On the one hand. Frankly, I find it a little annoying when ppl claim I'm brainwashed or brainwashing others (no wait, that's not annoying, that's ammusing... at any rate...)

But I do think you're "brainwashed", Perri. By that I mean that, through the proccess of the Program, you have become convinced of certain things that simply are not true and do not make stand to reason. For example, Perri, you posted a description of teenagers that I'd almost like to see you try and deliver in person to my 15yo's daughter and her buddies down at the local kick-boxing gym. And there was another post about how you "knew" that if you used illegal drugs you'd land up in jail. Well, that's not sensible. Not all teenagers are as you describe and, certainly, the chances of landing up in jail for illegal drugs are slim to none. Everybody knows that.

I don't think you're lying. I think you believe what you say. None the less, it simply isn't true. Doesn't mean your dumb or anything less than anybody. Just that the Program is very, very effective at implanting false beliefs.

Fear believes--courage doubts. Fear falls up the earth and prays--- courage stands erect and thinks. Fear is barbarism---courage is civilization. Fear believes in witchcraft, devils and ghosts. Fear is religion, courage is science.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

[Anonymous]

Anon,
 
I usually dont defend Perri on the forum. Shes an adult and is capable of defending herself. But in this particular instance (and the one about her on the WWASP payroll) something needs to be said.

Perri, yes, can be very angry on the forum. Like Ginger said, it can be angering for one to hear something said about them (like your brainwashed) that they feel is absolutly not true. Most of the time she is just defending herself. I know her very well. Ashley is one of the kindest and nice (almost too nice) people Ive ever met. She can be very selfless and very giving. Shes a great friend, always calls you back and never flakes out on you unless it is a true emergency. It is rare to find a person as positive and happy as she is. Simply because the topic of this forum gets her heated is no reason to judge her whole life. Soem people on this forum say things that drive me insane or whatever. But I dont know them and would never say they are lying about who they are. It is just plain wrong. Maybe asking her more about why she gets so angry about this woudl be more tactical and more effective than telling her she isnt happy like she says she is or that she isnt honest abou that just because of her passion about her beliefs. This is an important subject to her and it makes sense she gets so angry about it. She has good things to say and valid opinions just like every one else.

Ginger,

One thing you said in the most recent post got me thinking. It is true that alot of people do illegal stuf and dont get caught. But would you not agree that if you carry on with that same behavior later into life, that you greatly increase your chances of getting caught? I mean just because a kid dosnt get arrested for that stuff as a teen doesnt mean they wont later on into 20s and 30s. And then the consequences are harsher and if youve stared a family or a life, it can cause it all to fall apart. Its certainly complicated because on the one hand, I believe people who deal and smoke pot shoudl not get punished because I feel it shoudl be legalized. On the other hand, it is illegal no matter how I feel about it and getting arrested for it can harm your life. When my husband got in trouble for a pot charge a while ago and had to go to jail, spend over 1,500.00 on court fines, piss testes, ect, and had to do months of therapy, it was devestating and hard for us to survive. I was very pregnant at the time and if my Madre hadnt helped me out, I woudlnt have made it. Not to mention the mental strain it puts on a family and the person who is in jail. It was painfull for me to only see him once a week and no physical contact, not even a hug. ANd it was painful to have to see him go through that. And (not in my case but in others) it is painful for the child that has to deal with a parent or parents involved with the criminal justice system. And its true that not all kids will do that. Not all kids will continue wiht the same mentality as in the teens. But alot of people carry that baggade into their 20s and 30s and destroy others lives with their addictive and lazy behavior. Sure a person may not end up in jail or lose thier job or their home or their kids. But a negative and rude attitude can harm a person just like those things can. And that is the main point. A person may be addicted to something, but a positive and general good attitude can make all the difference. But if you dont learn a different way to think, then most likely you carry hang ups and fears and insecurities into 20s and beyond. so I guess my point (Im sure oyu were hoping I woudl get ot one:) is that just because a kid fears they woudl get in trouble wiht the law because of their actions dosnt always mean they are thinking short term about it. In my case I was thinking EVENTUALLY I would end up in jail or dead. I didnt know if it woudl happen the next day or 5 years form now or 15 or whatever. I just knew that if I kept doing what I was doing and thinking how I was thinking and living how I was living, there woudl not be a good ending to that story. I guess why I am ok wiht going to the program was because it wasnt all crap. The things that changed my perspective for the better I appreciate. Thats why I think that certain things about it make sense. Alot does not and needs to change. But just as all life, there is a silver lining in the dark cloud, you know? I dont ignore the bad abou tit because that woudl be ignorant and thats not who I am. I hate injustice and I hate people who get power and money by harming others. Its wrong. And MUCH about the program was wrong. But to say I NEVER learned anything at all that was worth while is just not true. as Peter A Lea put it, "Darkness makes us aware of the stars, and so when dark hours arise, they may hold a bright and lovly thing we might never have known otherwise."

Amanda
"Should you sheild the canyon from the windstorm, you would never see the beauty of their carvings."
-Elisabeth Kubler-Ross

[Perrigaud]

Caustic? Hmm. Ok. Im listening to how everyone perceives me. Angry? Hmm. Not anymore. Haven't been for a long long time.
If I used drugs I'd be in jail. Hmm don't remember saying that. Where did I say that? I don't use drugs and never have. Not my style. Sure I tried them but never went back twice.
Jail? I was on my way there. I was already on diversion and about to be sued for harming someone. Juvi was not fun either.
Ghandi or Mother Teresa. Yes thanks for putting them in the same paragraph. Interesting.

[Antigen]

Perri, I see now that it was Amanda that said that about the drugs and jail. And I agree it's unfair to compare anyone to Ghandi or Mother Theresa. For one thing, none of us meet that standard. For another, word has it that even they never fully lived up to their celebrity images. And, certainly, nobody who's arguing w/ you does either.

But I still think it's unlikely that you would view teenagers the same way if you hadn't been through the Program. And my guess is that you might have been better off facing the actual consequences for whatever you did to harm someone than dodging that for 'treatment' by WWASP.

And that really is a very important issue these days. There's a huge movement in public policy to provide this same form of 'treatment' to people convicted of various statutory and even real crimes. I think it's a hoodwink. I think a whole lot of people plead out and take the mandatory treatment thinking it's better than jail. But what actually happens is that they have a PO looking over their shoulder and, often times, they wind up w/ more serious charges than the original issue, more jail time and other obligations than they would have had and an added mindfuck on top of it all.

Amanda, you're absolutely right. Most kids engage in excessive behavior at some point. And most kids learn self control; sometimes through some hard knocks, others by observation. But, at least in my generation, very few actually swear off of all illicit drug use. I know people who will smoke a join if you offer AND it's not a high risk situation (they're not about to drive, it's a private place, ect.) And I even know people who will still, even at age 40, cop some coke for a special occasion. But those ones are few and far between. Most ppl I know who did coke as teenagers found it either unmanagable or just unpleasant and just put it down pretty quickly.

But very, very few people actually get busted. Even if they do, most just pay a fine anyway, unless they commit a contempt of cop violation or make some obvious mistake like trying to make a living at it or getting too involved w/ those who do.

Personally, I'm very conflicted about that. Most of the people I knew as a young woman who were trying to turn a buck at drug dealing were otherwise decent people. So when my kids' friends decide to try their hand at that (if I find out about it, anyway), I do my best to explain how the game is rigged and why it'll never pay off. I wouldn't want my kids to be the kind of people who cut good people out of their lives just because they do a few foolish things. But, at the same time, I don't want my kids getting dragged into untold drama, either. It's realy a dicey situation.

At the bottom of it, most kids seem to understand very well that the law is wrong, even though the intentions behind it are on the mark. But they have a hard time seperating the natural consequences of their own behavior from the contrived consequences put on them. Is it fair that one kid skates by till they're mature enough to get serious about life while another gets busted, gets a conviction, loses their drivers license education funding, etc. and is set back by all that by the time they mature that much?

I don't think it's fair at all. And I certainly think it's a dirty trick to "treat" kids for bucking unjust laws. Someone introduced Ghandi into this discussion. Well Ghandi was a rebel, an outlaw. He broke unjust laws and encouraged others to do the same. The most famous act of mass civil disobedience that he organized was the freelance making and selling of salt. Under our laws, it's OK to go to a shrink and get permission to purchase Xanex from the pharma co's(which is the most popular legal drug among ppl who find cannabis to be therapeutic) But it's illegal to bypass the pharma monopoly by growing a plant either for personal use or for profit. What's the diff? I can't say these kids are wrong in what they're doing on ethical grounds. And I hate telling them to suck it up; it's just demoralizing. So what's an old broad to do?

The disrespect for the possession laws fosters a disrespect for laws and the system in general... On top of this is the distinct impression among the youth that some police may use the marihuana laws to arrest people they don't like for other reasons, whether it be their politics, their hair style or their ethnic background.
                                                                     
http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/library/studies/nc/ncmenu.htm' target='_new'>Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding

[Anonymous]

The point of the Ghandi and Mother Teresa reference was more figurative...ie "I have true inner peace". Nevermind, having to explain it to you only makes it more ironic.

[bandit1978]

Amanda-  I know you did not like thinking where you were going, if you kept "living like..living, thinking like...thiking, doing what..doing".  

But part of getting older is that people *change* what they are doing, how they are thinking, ect...  It's only natural.

When I left PCS, I was worse off than when I went in.  I was quite angry at my parents, but hesitant to let them know that, for fear of being sent back.  I had all the symptoms of PTSD, but wasn't able to articulate on it.  

And I began to hang out with a very seedy and negative group of people.  I had an abusive boyfriend.  I stopped going to school in 12th grade.  I guess I thought that no one else would want to hang out with me, considering where I had just been.  

But, suprise, suprise!  I grew out of it!  I finished high school and college, I began living in my own apartment at age 19, I have an excellent boyfriend and good friends and a cool job, and I'm very happy.  I eventually lost the 30lbs I gained at PCS.  

Thats not to say that I don't do anything risque.  I enjoy a few cocktails, might smoke pot once a year, or if I have a stomache flu, I have been know to take my clothes off, after a night of dancing, and swim in a fountain.  But thats okay!  

I am a responsible, contributing member of society, *in spite* of going to PCS, not *because* of it.  

Anyway, I've seen plenty of kids who could have been construed as "troubled" as teenagers, kids who did worse things than I ever did.  These kids never got sent to programs, and most of them are fine now.

[Perrigaud]

Anonymous I know what you meant. It's not about not understanding. It's more about the way you went about saying what you were trying to say. Inner peace is quite wonderful. It shows up in the little and big things that happen in life. Does that mean I am always docile, soft spoken, and not passionate. Not at all. What it does mean is that I don't live in shame or guilt. I own up to my mistakes, learn from them, move on, and don't repeat them. Adulthood is nice. I still make my mistakes. Hateful? No that is something I am not. Hate is a very strong word.