Cross Creek Manor - Report of abuse

[cherish wisdom]

It's true that people change as time goes on. I know a very strait laced minister - father of four.  I was surprised when he admitted that he had been a heavy drug user and had even (to his great regret) taken his girlfriend in for an abortion.  So - people do change. The teenage years are a time to find out who you are and rebel and break away from parents. I also believe that most people have done something they could be arrested for - So Peri - you aren't that much different than anyone else.  The program may have helped you - but time also help us grow and change for the better. Experience is often the best teacher and sometimes - if we are wise - we learn best from our mistakes.  

In war, the stronger overcomes the weaker. In business, the stronger imparts strength to the weaker.
--Frederic Bastiat

[Anonymous]

Dear Bandit1978

Like I always say, I am very impressed by people who can simply change without help and simply stop doing idiotic things and grow up. Sorry to say i was not like that. I needed and still need help from others to help keep me on the right track. I make my own choices, but sometimes I need to bounce ideas and talk to people about myself to get a different perspective on things. I am not a person who can always figure stuff out on my own. Sometimes I am doing something that may seem ok to me until I talk to others I trust and respect aobut it and find out something new and different that changes my perspective on it. And I dont think there is anything wrong with that.

True I have known kids who grew out of being crazy. They are fine now. But I know more kids from High school that are doing abou the same or worse than kids who are doing better. Do you agree that when you have a certain way of dealing wiht something, you use that again and again until you learn a new or better way of dealing wiht it? Sometimes kids never learn a new or better way to deal wiht stuff so they use the same old unhealthy ways of dealing wiht life.  Sometimes you just need a little push in the right direction to change. I dont think all kids who are making unhealthy choices need to have some form of extreme help to get "better". Im just saying I think you are mistaken about the fact that most kids grow out of it. Sure they may not do drugs or whatever later in life, but a negative mindframe is more harmful I feel than drugs. Negativity can cause health problems, problems wiht relationships, and personal problems. I feel the main problems with many of the peopel I know who never grew out of being a teenager is they still live in this dramatic negative mindset. They always find SOMETHING to complain about, something to make fun of, something to start drama about. It is really tiring and draining to be around someone like that. Therefore I feel drugs and promiscuous behavior are merely what kids who dont have self esteem and who dont have trust and comfort in their lives turn to. I feel it woudl help many of those kids to at least try therapy or whatever they want to gain a new perspective that fits them or to see life isnt a bitch and then oyu die. To see life holds so much greatness and opportunity and wonderful stuff.

Amanda

[bandit1978]

Dear Amanda,

You sound pretty mature for your age (you are 18?)  I'm glad that you are able to make sense of your experience at the program.  When I got out of Provo Canyon School, I was kind of like Whoa, what the hell was that all that for??

At your age, one would expect you still need some guidance.  I'm 26, and I still need guidance at times.  No one expects that you will always know how to do everything.  There will be times when you need others to help you to figure things out, like when you start a new job, or have a baby or something.

But when you say that "most people don't grow out of it", I have to say I have found that to be wrong.  Just give it some time.  You and your peers are still teenagers.  If you go to college and get a good job, I think you will find that most people had to deal with some serious issues as adolescents.  Seriously, this builds character.  

My boyfriend left home as a teenager, against his mothers wishes.  He is a doctor now.  Some people we work with *still* do drugs...the difference is that, when you are older, you think differently. It is difficult for me to put into words exactly how you think differently.  You just do.  Maybe you are motivated by different things.  But most people are able to advance in their careers and make smart decisions and be responsible *and* also have fun and drink and go to parties or whatever your vice may be.  

Negativity is a different issue completely.  You are right-  it is bad for your health, it is the root of many problems, and it prevents progress from being made.  It is an emotion based in fear, not love.  If the program helped you to recognize negativity and rid your self of it, than thats great.  But most programs seem to invoke so much negativity, and they claim that this leads to a positive outcome.  You may find later on that being exposed to such negativity (which you do not dispute you were exposed to, correct?) has had lasting negative effects on your person and spirit. It's like a radioactive bomb.  You may not get hit by the bomb directly,  but if you are in the vicinity, you will be exposed to the energy it radiates.  

There were many times at PCS when I felt okay and even enjoyed being around the people who were there (staff and students).  I guess that would make sense, because people learn coping skills, they instincitvely learn that they need to survive and try to make things as pleasant as possible. If you ask Martha Stewart, I'm sure she would say that she was not miserable every minute of every day in prison, but that does not mean that that it was an appropriate punishment for her crime.  

Anyway, I am rambling here.  Just give it some time, Amanda.  As you become an adult, you will begin to look at things differently.  And you are right about seeing a therapist.  I would suggest that you continue to see a therapist, well into your 20's.  I think it will help you adjust to everything.  

Good luck to you.  

Megan

[Timoclea]

All that happened to most of the people I knew who screwed up or screwed off in high school was they ended up poor or working class.

Sure, it's more fun to have more money, but I have to wonder how many of these yuppie parents would have a cow if you suggested that their wild teen would probably grow out of drugging a lot or pulling stunts that were going to get him caught and get him serious jail time---and would simply be poor, or working at Wal-Mart, or as the UPS guy, and having a beer at the end of the day, and pretty much living for a pickup game with the guys on the weekend, or a couple of beers and a poker game, or watching a ballgame with the guys on the tube.

A lot of this is classist.

These yuppies say they're horrified about their teen being deadorinjail, but the *subtext* is that they're just as horrified by their teen (and their prospective grandkids) taking a step down the class ladder and being poor or working class (gasp!) and (worse) being content to be so.

My husband's best friend from high school went to high school drunk every day.  Friend is Native American.  He's had one working class job after another, and a failed marriage.  Most of his problems stem from being the target of a paternity suit when he was 14.  He and his parents always said the girl's dad fathered the kid and he was just friends with her, and that they picked him to avoid the shame.  And it was before DNA tests, barely, and so the way the judges are the guy can't just go back and say--DNA test this, and if he comes up not the dad be done with it.  I don't know if he fathered the kid or not.  I do know that he's been poor and single all these years because he always had to worry about his wages being garnished and kept one step away from starvation.  Whether he deserved it or not, I've no idea, as I said.

But he was wild, and all he turned out was poor.

That's been fairly typical.

And out of all the people who do some jail time, *most* of them end up in the county jail for small stretches and mostly just poor, not in state or federal prison for serious time.  Mostly the jail time is an infinitesimal fraction of their adult lives.

So the wild teens who do end up "in jail" for short stretches, I've got to wonder if what their parents are really horrified by is the "poor" part.

That's what really frosts me about these parents.

Most of them, all their kid is in danger of is ending up one of the unwashed masses instead of a yuppie.  Oh, horrors.

So the kid comes out of the program and *still* ends up working class and no matter how poor the kid ends up, or if he does small amounts of jail time, it's "a relapse" and at least the kid isn't dead or doing hard prison time----which he wouldn't have been in the first place.

But Mommy and Daddy Dearest have to "do something" to try to get their kid, who doesn't look to be yuppie material despite their fond hopes, "back on track"--their track.  So private prison it is.

It's pretty disgusting.

Most of these kids aren't in danger of anything more than a life of trailer parks, budweiser, and punching a time clock.

Oh, Horrors!  

Timoclea

Not a place upon earth might be so happy as America. Her situation is remote from all the wrangling world, and she has nothing to do but to trade with them.
--Thomas Paine

[BuzzKill]

Not saying your wrong Timocela - but this is not always the case.
 
Often enough, I think, the families are just like ours - squarely middle class - toward the lower end - and going deep into debt; or spending long held savings - to try and save the kid from themselves - so they could have a future of some kind besides that of a dumpster diving junkie.

Others have kids with mental health disorders that are not appropriate for at home services and they think they are buying a premium program as opposed to the sub standard care so often found in the state homes. I feel this is a terrible misconception, the program being what it is - but I understand how and why they think it.

A few actually think they are sending the kid to a college prep boarding school!

This is where I feel the fraud come into play.

In any case - I know we were not trying to insure a yuppie future. My husband is a mechanic. His dad was a mechanic. His brother shoveled coal. My dad was a meter reader. I have mostly worked for minimum wage in pet shops, vets offices and shelters. I have worked in Printing, but that too was minimum wage.

Back when we were the age of our kids and needing jobs and self sufficiency - you could get a job like this with very little education and no one cared what you smoked after work.

Now, HS is mandatory and some college preferred - even to shovel coal! You have to pass a fairly difficult pre hire test and a drug screen.

If I had dreams, it was that my kids might find a way top make a good living with their art, as both are gifted. But I have often told them, I don't care what they do as long as its legal; will support them; and they are happy doing it.

I know in our son's case - we turned to the program with the intent of insuring a High School diploma and a sober enough mind to at least be able to give rational thought to the future he wanted.

But we were not told the truth about the program - and would never have considered it an option if we had been - and I am convinced this is true for most families.

If told in the beginning, what the program actually IS and what they actually DO - I don't think they'd see many, if any, enrolled - which is why, IMO, they go to such extremes to mis lead the families.

[Antigen]

On 2005-05-11 11:34:00, BuzzKill wrote:

If told in the beginning, what the program actually IS and what they actually DO - I don't think they'd see many, if any, enrolled - which is why, IMO, they go to such extremes to mis lead the families.

Yes, this is very, very true. But the parents and Programers are misleading themselves as well. In the `70's, they believed that smoking pot would lead a kid inextricably down the primrose path through speed, acid, heroin and, eventually, hacking up their own parents a la Manson Family.

Sounds crazy now. But people bought it.

Now we're told that ppl who do meth are exactly like those heroin addicts we used to hear about but who failed to really materialize. No heart, no concience, just blood sucking zombie slaves to their addictions. Yeah right!

I was a young woman in the `80's. Damned near everybody I know did some coke back then. A few of them did enough to make up for any who passed on the whole fad. But that's all it was, it was a fad. Most everybody just simply put it down, even if "it" was smoked freebase.

You're right, Tim. The reality is that kids ta'day will likely turn out pretty much like adults in any day; foggy as hell in their memories when comparing themselves back then to their own kids ta'day.

A dictatorship would be a heck of a lot easier, there's no question
about it.
--GW Büsh, Business Week, July 30, 2001

[BuzzKill]

I agree Ginger, except for your compairing Meth to coke - or any other drug for that matter.

IN a recent conversation with a young woman who is a friend of my son's, I was told how everything any of them used in the past was a fad. It came and went. They used it a few times or a bunch of times - but then it passed. But this has not been the case with her friends on meth. They don't seem to be able to set it aside. The inevitable negitive consequences don't give them pause. She is one of the kids most involved with the local drug sub culture - and she is scared to death of what she sees meth doing to her friends. Then she calls me and scares me to death. Isn't this supposed to be the other way around?
 
But I tell ya - I do hope some of the dire predictions and consequences of meth making and use are hyperboil - b/c if not, this is one real serious problem for everybody.

[Antigen]

Oh, no doubt meth is hard to kick! So is crack. But people do it. And people do it mostly because they look around and see what not quitting can do to you. And I think that's the very reason why so many people do not quit cannabis. They look around and don't see any real cause for concern.

Point is, no matter what you do from the sidelines in an effort to control your gorwn or nearly grown kid, the only really powerful influence is always going to be their own observation and free will.

First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you win.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0826400035/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Gandhi

[Anonymous]

Meagan,
Im 22 actually. Its funny you put it that way, about needign guidance about having a baby. I had a baby 14 months ago and boy howdy, did I need some guidance! Im not saying Im this lump who cant figure out anything on my own. But surly you know that as human beings we all get into habits and ways of thinking that create this block in our minds. Like for instance, I may get angry at my husband about something. Im sure it is abou this one thing. But once I talk to a friend or family memeber about it, I realize many times that I was getting mad about something that was not really what I was mad about. See what I mean? It is good I think to get more than one perspective to realize what is really true and what isnt.

When I speak of the peopel I knwo who havnt grown out of it, I mean people between the ages of 22-30. Most of my friends have always been older than me. And actually, the friends I have who are 25-29 who have grown out of it are in AA and therapy. And most of the kids Ive met in college are (mentally) worse than the kids I met in high school, because they are older and should be more mature. for instance, I was studying one day in the common area of our campus and three girls were giggling and hiding behind this big column. I over heard one of the girls saying, "Theres professor Blah(cant remember the name). We cant let him catch us skipping!) Now I just had to chortle to myself because A) Hes gettign paid regardles of wether they go to class and therefore probably could give a shit less and B) it wasnt high school. Professors arent going to care if oyu go to class or not. Theyer just wasting their own money and time.

And the people I know who still do drugs, unfortunatly have not learned the mature balance. They still party all the time, are late to work, pass out drunk in the hallway, ect. No different. Since you know I am not 18, I understand how the mentality changes. After having a child, I understand that. But alot of people just dont get it. But be honest. We live in America, the land of overindulgence. Most Americans dont understand the idea of a balance or how to not over do it. Sorry, but I just think that is the truth.

I agree, I have heard of people being put down and mentally abused in the program. That will create a negative mindframe if anything.

Amanda
PS. Do I seem that young?

[Anonymous]

Tim,

The part about the jail time? Even a small stretch of time can cost more than your freedom. Do you know how much it costs to even just go to court and be sentanced? A hell of alot of money for a teenager. And not to metnion, if it had anything to do with drunk driving, DUID, ect, car insurance skyrockets up for a long time. Plus it is on your record for a while. Depending on the charge, it can effect you for longer than just the "short stretch".
Not sayign that anything is wrong with having a middle class job (hell I have one and so does my husband) but sometimes you want more for your life than popping out babies and workign a nine to five (or if your really poor, 9-10:00PM) and coming home and drinking a miller lite. Thats not to say you have to be rich to be happy. But doing something you love Vs. working at Walmart can depress the shit out of you if you choose the latter.

I think the paretns would be happy if their kid worked at Wal mart. Hell most the kids who are doing meth and smokig and all that get the money from their yuppie parents. If they got a job their paretns would probably fall over dead from shock!

I know my parents just wanted me to be what I wanted to be. An artist. That dosnt make any money at all. But its what I wanted.

Amanda

[Anonymous]

Ginger,
Just looking at the last posts and saw something interesting.

The part abotu how peopel dont quit smoking pot because there isnt a real concern there is kind of off. Ther SHOULDNT be a cause for concern. But lest we forget, as unfauir and stupid as it is, pot is illegal. If I got caught smoking pot, my daughter would be taken away from me. that is enough reason to not do it. Its wierd. Pot is the least dangerous illegal drug there is really, but it is illegal and cigarettes and alcohol (very dangerous drugs) are legal. Its a shame. But there are reasons for peopel not to smoke. Or at least to hide it better. :smile:

Amanda

[BuzzKill]

//Point is, no matter what you do from the sidelines in an effort to control your gorwn or nearly grown kid, the only really powerful influence is always going to be their own observation and free will.//

Point taken.

[Antigen]

Amanda, re: the pot thing, we need to change that. Not just that, of course. We need to change a lot of things. And I suppose that's the real nut of my beef w/ the Program. The whole concept of it is to break any kid who doesn't accept, w/o question, whatever arbitrary and humiliating bullshit we throw at them. That's SO wrong! We should be raising this generation to take charge of our rogue government, not to cower before the stupid Nazis!

There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
http://www.tatteredcover.com/NASApp/store/IndexJsp?s=showproduct&affiliateId=000095&isbn=0753816571' target='_new'>Alfred Lord Tennyson

[bandit1978]

Amanda, sorry, I didn't know you were 22.  There used to be someone who posted here, who knew a girl named Amanda and was in the process of getting her out of a program.  Was that you??

About AA... when I was 18, I worked for awhile as a waitress.  It was lots of fun.  There was a group of teenagers and young adults who would come in every weekend, they were from either AA or NA.  I talked to some of them a bit, and it seemed to me that a lot of these people were with this group because it was sort of like a club.  I thought it was pretty weird.  And I wondered how many of them had drug/alcohol problems so severe that they required these sorts of programs.  

A few years later, in nursing school, I did some research on drug and alcohol treatment.  It was clear that there is a serious lack of options for people seeking help with their alcohol or drug use.  Lots of people drink, or do some types of drugs, who may need some guidance in managing their use.  Theres nothing wrong with that.  Lots of people go to therapy to learn to manage things, like relationships and jobs and personal time, ect...  Not all of these people will require something as drastic as NA or AA.  

In Europe, there is a program called Moderation Management.  It is kind of like Weight Watchers, but for alcohol use.  Participants may go to meetings, if they like.  Basically, all drinks ar worth a certain number of units.  You figure out how many units you can have in a week, and you stick to it.  You can spread them out, or save them for the weekend, whatever.  This helps lots of people get a handle on their alcohol consumption, before it becomes a big problem.  I don't know why Moderation Management is not used in the States.  

And, I'm sorry if this sounds judgemental, but if you know so many people who are in AA, then you are hanging out with the wrong crowd.  Consider taking up with the Moderation Management group (no, just kidding).  But extremism is not healthy.  Where do you live, anyway?  

Megan

[Nihilanthic]

Something my stepdad told me that he realize while thinking today while running my paper route got my attention. And, it explains a lot.

"If we had been told by someone that they had a miracle cure for you, when you were still 10 years old, we would have tried it".

These programs take full advantage of terrifed, frustrated, desperate parents. They manipulate emotions and feelings and reality and truth from day one. Thats the heart of the problem (or, rather, how it spreads in the first place) and part of why its just so damn EVIL!

But now, I've come to the realization that I have no idea how to change that. How do you prevent manipulative, greedy businesses from preying on scared parents?

When the government's boot is on your throat, whether it is a left boot or a right boot is of no consequence.
-- Gary Lloyd