I dont have alot of time to write for now Cayo, but Ill respond as quickly as I can.
I said you can quit if you want to, but it takes a much longer, more detailed process to STAY sober. Quitting is not going to solve everything. It will solve it for the moment, but many people relapse later on wihtout a plan so to speak. But I agree wiht you that people take things too literally in the big book. Ive found that the friends I have that stay sober dont do it "right" (if there is such a thing) all the time. Its progress, not perfection. I know that the bigbook says some stupid stuff, but it was also written by males in the 50s. They were not the most openminded people of all time, especially when it came to women in recovery. I think that times change and societys change and therefore I edit the things form the book I dont like and keep in mind that which I can embrace. I know alot of AA "nazis" woudl say do it this way or else!" but hose I know in my humble openminded meetings where I live would never say such a thing. They have prgressed with AA and dont take it all so literally, like the bible or something.
It says specifically what I said? Ive never read it. But then again Ive never read all the stories in it. Maybe someone there said it?
I think it is true, however that someone who understands addiction from firsthand expereince knows better than someone who reads it from a book. I would not go to a therapist to help me wiht my addictions if they werent in recovery. I have friends who feel the same way. One of my friends who had a hard relapse recently said her therapist is retarded in that way because shes never known what addiction is like. She told her "Why would anyone like to smoke pot? Or do drugs?" Well any addict knows why.
And for soem people, AA is the ONLY thing that worked for them. That was true of Bill W cuz back then there werent many alternatives. Thats not to say that it dosnt need a little revision. But a few passages sayign they feel it is the only thing that helped them and the peopel they know that tried it dosnt mean they might not feel differetnly now. Men have a way of thinking their way is the only way (women too, but Ive noticed every male in my life is pretty thick headed about that stuff) Bill W was no exception. I have always had a problem wiht the outdated ness of it. But I wont dicredit books just because they are outdated. If they have useful informationthat applies to me than cool! Who cares if most of it sucks? At least I found a nugget of truth that helped me. AA is in no way perfect. No recovery method is perfect or 100%. None. Nada. Zip. So I think it is important for any recovering person to look for what fits them best and if they need to follow the big Book "religiously" then thats what they need. I know when I relapsed the first time, it wasnt cuz I stopped going to meetings or calling my sponser. It had to do with my honesy level wiht myself and others, letting things slip that are important for me to be structured on, ect.
Again look at when the book was writen. Not many alternatives that worked.
I agree again. They can quit. But to stay sober is a totally differetn thing. AA isnt about quitting and sending you home all fixed. Its about staying sober.
Is it misguided to want to stay sober? I have a cousin who is an alcoholic but instead of AA, she goes to church. I am not a big fan of organized religion at all, but if it helps her, so be it.
Sometimes, I dont know if this is true for you, but it takes someone else to point out what Im doing wrong if i cant see it. And they dont say "heres what your doing wrong and heres how to fix it." By giving a personal expereince of their life and what helped them, you can see yourself in that snad try it too. No one could say why someon is in AA, but hey can try to help them figure it out.
I have taken every expereince in my life and used it as a recovery path. Treatment, AA, therapy, spiritual healing, ect. I dont look for one path, but I can see the good in AA instead of being cynical and only pointing out the bad. If we all went aroud looking for the bad in everything then we would all be miserable bastards. Well, most Americans are, but still. Like I am not a fan of any organized religion. In my opinion it does alot of damage. but I can see the good in it as well. I am not a fan of the government, especially the one we have now, but I can see the small microscopic good it does. I choose nott o wallow in the bad. It does no one any good. Sure I get passionate about it. Sure I hate the bad of it. But I dont want to live my life worrying about it if I'm not going to do anything to help. I think you are all great for getting activly involved (as far as a forum goes) to stop something oyu see as injustice. But I think a program designed to help people is nothing to freak out about. If they were trying ot force you to do it, then yes, that is lame. But if oyu can find a meeting of openminded individuals, then that is a great thing and AA can be effective.
I do think having a spiritual mind and body is an excellent thing, not just for sober people. I think it helps sober people, but being in touch with an inner self and exploring your own spirituality can be a good idea for anyone.
But how many of the 80% quit for good? How many just quit and stayed sober for a while and drank again? Staying sober is a lifetime commitment. You have to always want it, not just when things are really bad, I think. It helps to admit you have lost control of your drinking to stop. If oyu didnt feel you had no control over your drinking, you wouldnt have the desire to quit in the first place, agreed?
Pleas quote whare it says "were either true alcoholics or well die or come crawling back" Ill find it somewhere and quote what I said.
You make it seem as though it is easy when you say, "just quit"
My sponser of friends never broungt up the steps when I had a craving. Again, maybe its the place you live.
Actually at the treatment center i went to, AA was totaly voluntary. If you didnt want to go you didnt have to, cuz alot of people there didnt just have alcohol or drug problems. I ran a meetign on an upper level and only 2-3 peopel came a week. That seems pretty voluntary to me.
Alot of peopel were facing not just death, ultimatly drinking excessivlt will kill you. Either through liver problems, heart attack, diabetes, ect., but they are facing prison or jail time, losing their family, their marriage, their home, their car, what ever. That seems good enough to quit for me.
I dont know anyone who thinks of it as a religion. Regardless of what they thought it sounded liek or what it seems like, no one I know prays to Bill W.
Words words words. Actions speak louder than words. If the big book says something and I dont do it I dont automatically fall dead. TO them AA had to be tough or they would relapse. Its hard to relapse. It is unpleasant. They were just trying to make sure that didnt happen, and there way seemed to work so yeah. Many peopel dont take all of it as literally as you think.
I think I know why oyu dont like AA. Probably for the same reason I dont like organized religion. But can we agree that it is always good to look for the positive in something and acknowledge that instead of focusing only on the bad?
"Although the world is full of suffering, it is full also of the overcoming of it."
-Helen Keller
