it doesn't matter who put it up first! it is a child!

[Anonymous]

i am so shocked that people here are not getting the point that zita is a human child that a mother is completely exploiting in my opinion. joyce does not stop, ever, from what i have read.

it doesn't matter who put zita's name up on the board first, i don't know, I tried to search it, but in reality, it doesn't matter!  the mother kept provoking the topic, never stopping and repeated the name over and over.

joyce was quick to be sure that letter she wrote, that really exposed the real joyce, was removed, why isn't she begging to have antigen remove her minors name? well, then joyce would be losing her attention.  she makes a  public statement on a isac website to further expose her daughter. it is a child! someday, this girl will see all this, and the i am sure from the letter joyce wrote, zita will fight back. now that will be a interesting day.

so joyce makes sure the letter that exposed her is removed, but has no concern about exploiting her daughter? what doesn't make sense here?

don't think i don't care about abuse, i do. but i do believe in justice to. if the police, ag, detectives or others believe or get concrete proof about this abuse, i bet it will be closed. i don't know whitmore, i know wwasp. i know they get away with alot, in my opinion, but in my opinion it has to do with with political power. i don'tknow that the whitmore is that big. maybe they are, but i can't even find them on the web. somewhere here it states they only have like 30 kids, so it is tiny. i think the state would have no problem closing them if there was concrete proof.

back to zita, it doeesn't matter who started it, it should end. but the mother needs to be stroked, in my opinion.

[Antigen]

If you're so concerned about this kid's privacy, then why do you keep bringing it up?

I already told you I agree w/ you on the issue. There's a LOT of content floating around here that should not be discussed publicly. I don't make those calls.

But this forum is not primarily about the parents who send their kids to these places. Maybe I should start one of those? This forum is about the programs, how they work, how they don't work and how they go about marketing. The whole idea is to give the sane people a look at the part of the story that the industry doesn't advertise.

Now, that said, I don't think that WWASP's immunity is entirely due to their own political power. I think the entire industry is getting a free ride. Lots of these places continue in business under various names after repeatedly being shown to be abusive and fraudulent.

I don't think the next criminal prosecution will do any more good than the last. The rest of the cult usually just moves on and pretends that whoever they threw to the wolves was the one and only bad seed and now everything's just hunkey dory.

I think this industry continues to grow for one very simple reason; there's a market for it. A totally credulous, well heeled (for the most part) market of parents who are willing to believe obvious lies.

So what do we do about that?

Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

[Anonymous]

sorry if it seems like i am bringing it up a lot, but it seems everytime i say something about it, it is brushed off by blaming others. i just think that parents need to take accountability to. i know i did and still do. i wont share my childs story, it is not mine to share. i respect my child, i screwed up. so i guess i take offense with joyce using her daughter this way.

i guess we can agree to not agree on this. but i am concerned for the innocent child, well, may not be innocent, but is still a child and doesn't deserve what her mother is doing to her.

[Antigen]

Well this is the nature of the whole damned industry. Look here. http://helpyourteens.com/true_story.html
There's a mother actually making a career out of her daughter's private business. How would you like to go through college w/ that floating around the net?

Why are you focusing on this one detail? Why not get just as bent out of shape over stories about the one girl's allegedly loose sexual habits or the other's affinity for love drugs.

But again, this is not a forum primarily about the parents, though that certainly is a worthy and frequently touched on subtopic. This is a forum about the Whitmore in the context of a lot of forums mostly about the troubled parent industry.

Once in awhile, some smart ass kid will hijack the conversation and bring up something worth talking about. Hopefully, that'll start happening more frequently again soon.

How do you feel about the threats to divulge all the dirt these ppl say they're holding back if people don't shut up? What is it that these people want so badly for everyone to shut up about? That's part of how the industry "works". Intentionally or not, they set up a situation where young kids are encouraged, cajoled and/or frightened and harassed into divulging very personal material to a bunch of other kids. And this isn't the first time I've seen that information used to bludgeon anyone who comes off as critical of one of these programs.

Now that's the best case scenareo, where they just didn't realize what might happen. In this case, though, somehow a letter addressed to Mark which contained highly confidential information about a kid made it to the net.

I think that ought to give pause to every parent who has given these people confidential information about their kids. For CHRIST's sake, don't piss these people off!

In retrospect, is this kind of freeform 'group therapy' really such a good idea?

People everywhere enjoy believing things that they know are not true. It spares them the ordeal of thinking for themselves and taking responsibility for what they know.
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Anonymous]

Your writing style seems amazingly similar to those posted by anon from Whitmore.  Could this be a new form of deflection.  Taking everyone off track of the real issue-posting a very private email concerning a minor and violating patient confidetiality! What they did was wrong morally, legally and yes even spiritually.  Get off your soapbox and stop beating another dead horse. Posting that email was the most horrific act I have seen on this forum yet. Like Antigen said, we get your point.  Move on. Have you not noticed the other names mentioned here by several other parents and kids.  We are concerned parents expressing our stories.  I really doubt you are here just out of curiosity. You show way too much interest in Joyce and her daughter.  It is obvious in your persistance to make your point.

[Anonymous]

it is a really sad day in america when  you think that having pity for a child is deflection. i have no idea who any of the kids are. yes i have seen other names, gmom with her gdaughter but the gdaughter seems to be over 18 and posting herself.  

zita is a helpless 12/13 year old.the mother is obviously exploiting her, and i am in shock. maybe because i actually know a very similar story, that happened in my family. i know the hurt, pain and destruction it can cause.

dont try to accuse me of being anything unless you know me.  you don't.  joyce has made sure this whole thread and the isac know all about her, richard and zita. it is sad.

[Gmom]

I don't quite understand how you feel Joyce's daughter is being exploited by Joyce.  Joyce and her husband have filed formal charges.  By coming forward publically they have put themselves on the chopping block.  There are always those with an opposing opinion, which they are free to have.
But, I think, if you really take a look at what has been written, the only exploitation has come from the Whitmore and/or Whitmore supporters.

Without people willing to speak out, as the Harris' have, people like the Sudweeks will continue to take advantage of desperate parents and troubled teens.  They will continue to use barbaric methods to munipulate and control these kids -- they will continue to abuse. They will continue to lie to parents about services they claim to provide.

The Harris' are performing a much-needed public service.  We cannot let this sit on the back burner and be forgotten.  It is not going to go away unless more people are willing to speak up.
My hat is off to Richard and Joyce Harris.

Susan Schacherer

[Anonymous]

Did you or do you have a child at the Whitmore??  If the answer is NO then do not tell me or join in on a cause you know nothing about.  Don't talk to me or anyone else about pain, destruction and pity!!  

I am living the nitemare everyday with the damage that was caused at the Whitmore.  I visited there several times over a year's time.  It wasn't until the end that things started to make sense.  Many names are used on this site by many people.  Most on this site are familiar to the Whitmore or have experienced it in some shape or form.  

There are a multitude of other topics on this site that cover other schools and programs.  I have no interest in visiting any of them because  I have no relationship to them.  It would seem that you would have to have some kind of interest in the Whitmore or why visit this forum.  Did you just close your eyes and put your cursor on one and click??  I doubt it.  So again, if you have no stake or experience here, you have a LOT of catching up to do!

I would post my name and my child's name in a heartbeat but fear for the backlash that I have witnessed others experience.  ANYONE who dares to use their name or tell a story that remotely resembles someone they can identify, becomes open season on this site!  

I admire Joyce for having the courage to stand up and say who she is.  It gives her credibility because there is a name attached to her post.  Those who post with no name appear less credible because it could be the same person posting numerous times to make a point.  Unfortunatley, I fall into this category.  However, I assure you I am a real parent with real issues from a very real experience with the Whitmore!

Yes, Zita's name has been used on this site and yes she is a victim.  But again MOST of us on the site know who many of the names are.  I personally have met many of them.  Like someone else said, 90 some percent of the general public has no knowledge of this site.  There would be no interest in coming here unless you have a concern with placing a child or have already had the experience of placement.  Make sense??

So tell us... what is your story?? How did you really get here.  You are anonymous, your child is protected.  Give us something of value to walk away with instead of judging other parents that may have walked in your shoes.  

I have a child that is also a victim and I feel nothing but compassion and support for Joyce.  The pity I feel is for those children now home who have no one to talk to or have no one who will believe the horror stories I have heard.  There are many children who keep silent because they have been labled "habitual liars."  We as parents sent them there to learn to tell the truth.  Imagine the twisted irony they now feel when they want to tell the truth but fear they won't be believed.  

It was an excrutiating reality to learn we as parents spent over $40,000 to have our child abused mentally, physically and God knows what else!  Very tough pill to swallow!  NO parent wants to hear that.  The kids already feel guity for all the trouble they caused prior to placement at the Whitmore.  They don't want to cause any more heartache and guilt on the parent's part.  Keep in mind, my child didn't tell me what happened!  I found out through others that witnessed it!! Only then when I confronted was it confirmed!

By the way... every story about my child was told by a different child in a different state who had NO knowledge I had spoken to any other kids!  There is no way they could have possibly gotten togeter and plotted to tell me the SAME story.  None of the kids had spoken to each other after coming home.  So keep in mind there are MANY other stories out there you have not heard besides Joyce's.  How is your curiosity now?

[Antigen]

I think Anon's got a point. There are some issues that I don't think should be laid out publicly. They've filed a complaint. It's up to the DA to decide whether or not to file charges. I'm glad they haven't gone into a lot of detail publicly about the specifics of that complaint. I hope they never will. But that's just my advice.

But there's a big difference between the way the Harrises are telling about how they and their child were victimised and the Sudweeks disclosing confidential info about that kid that was given to them in the course of seeking treatment for the kid. They're the kid's parents and they have to make the decisions about what is and is not the proper way to go about protecting their kid from the abuse they've alleged. The Sudweeks never had any kind of authorization to tell you or me or anyone else the contents of those private conversations.

Can't you see that, anon?

I just want ppl looking on to take note that it's a really, really bad idea to divulge this kind of personal information to people you don't really know that much about.

Now onto the method of treatment. From what I've read here and on the Whitmore blog, it seems to be structured around the same basic type of peer group therapy as they used at Straight. I heard so much excruciatingly personal material in those group sessions I just wanted to cut off my ears. And, just like we've seen here, kids who had this private information would use it against each other. This is what they called "confrontation therapy". Ugly, isn't it?

It's odd, I think, to see this happen in public like this. Some of this trash talking back and forth sounds just like a group session to me. But we never let outsiders see that side of things. It was sort of verboten. Of course, if you tried to sue them or something then it would come up in court. And they'd have higher phase kids go and do speaking engagements or speak at open meetings and divulge some of this themselves.

Evidently, all the kids and all the staff have access to this very confidential information (true or not) about these kids and their families. And, evidently, these folks are not above using that information as a weapon.

Do you think that's a good idea? Do you think this is the first time they've done this to a kid? Hell, it's not even the first time in the past month that I've seen private information about former Whitmore kids used as a weapon against them by people who claim to defend the Whitmore.

I hope those kids all realize that most readers to this forum have been there. Personally, I don't believe half of that trash. I know how people tend to exagerate stories about their horrible past or even incidents that occure during "treatment" under the circumstances you describe. So don't think everyone believes every word or is as judgmental as the people making these accusations.

Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man.
--Thomas Jefferson, U.S. President, author, scientist, architect, educator, and diplomat

_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Seed sibling `71 - `80
Straight South (Sarasota, FL)
   10/80 - 10/82
Anonymity Anonymous
Some days, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps.

[Antigen]

On 2005-03-12 06:13:00, Anonymous wrote:

"it is a really sad day in america when  you think that having pity for a child is deflection.

It just seems so one sided. Do you have the same pitty for Joey? The story is that he got into trouble for sneaking a phone call home, they had "group" on him and it got physical. When he went public w/ that info, a bunch of Whitmore kids (and again, I certainly hope it was kids, because it would be unforgivable for adults to act this way) came on here and said he was drunk and violent and that we should not believe him.

Hanna's been pretty well torn up too. And I understand she got into trouble for calling her parents too. Do you have any sympathy for Hanna?

How about Leah? Nothing there for Leah?

All of these families went to the Whitmore for help w/ sensitive family issues. Now all of them are having that sensitive family matter used against them in retaliation for criticizing the Program.

The question is who's exploiting who? Or, in baser terms, who's f***in who and where'd the money go?

Arms in the hands of citizens [may] be used at individual discretion...in private self-defense...
-- John Adams, (1788)

[Joyce Harris]

No one is exploiting our daughter except the Sudweeks. When we filed abuse against the Sudweeks we stated we would not discuss any details, and we have not. Any private, confidential information about our daughter, including her name, was published by them.

We also will not fold to any form of CURRENT blackmail, telephone, or email threats. This form of criminal intimdation to try and force  us drop charges has been turned over to the proper authorities.

Judge me as you choose, but we, as parents will continue to support and participate in all on-going investigations.

[Anonymous]

who are you kidding this website is about a couple of sick people who like to TRY to bring other people into their darkened sicko minds. this is not at all about the kids. this is about Ginger still holding a grudge because she was sent to a BAD program, because she was a troubled teen. and a couple other of you ol bittys. who else would waist their life on the talk crap excuse me lieing webpage. none of you have your facts straight then the truth is told and you delete it. WHAT? its obvious what is going on. dont you think if the whitmore was so bad. something would have been done by now. and dont you think if sudweeks were so bad. they would have been shut down a long time ago.

[Cayo Hueso]

No, I don't think they would already be shut down.  The program that I was in went on abusing kids for years after kids started reporting abuse.  They were just dismissed as disgruntled druggies who didn't "work" the program.  The director inspired either intense hatred or complete devotion, much like Whitmore seems to do.  In the end the director of the program I was in did end up in court with about $15 million or so in judgments against him for abuse.  Its just a shame that he was allowed to continue the abuse for so many years before people finally listened.

The deletion you speak of was not just any old post.  It was a private email that was sent to the Sudweeks in the course of "treatment"  for their child to give them a better understanding of what the daughter's 'issues' were. To allow that to be posted on a public forum is immoral and unethical.  Ginger's ethics appear to be intact.

Locate the blind spot in the culture--the place where the culture isn't looking, because it dare not--because if it were to look there, its previous values would dissolve.
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1561769118/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'>Terence McKenna

[Anonymous]

Bash Joyce Harris all you like. Posting her name publicly caused one parent to believe the placement of a minor child was wrong and that child was removed from Whitmore immediately. The Sudweeks and the referring person Sue Scheff didn't like that AT ALL. So of course Mrs. Harris is going to be bashed!

[Anonymous]

ANON asked wouldn't Whitmore have been "shut down a long time ago." The investigation of abuse against the Sudweeks has only been going on since the later part of November...that is LESS than 4 months.  That is not a LONG TIME AGO for a criminal investigation, you know.