Author Topic: Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous  (Read 14330 times)

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Offline Anonymous

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #120 on: December 02, 2004, 06:11:00 PM »
I have my own 12-step program, and the first 11 steps don't mean (CENSORED BY NETWORK) and the 12th is "don't do it."
James Frey, Author of A Million Little Pieces, speaking on the ABC News 20/20 TV program, "Help Me, I Can't Help Myself", April 21, 2003.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #121 on: December 02, 2004, 10:47:00 PM »
"Further evidence of AA?s expansionism can be found in its attitude toward coercion. In its early days, AA was proud of being an all-volunteer organization. Today, AA embraces coercion. AA willingly cooperates with courts which routinely coerce drunk drivers and others guilty of alcohol­related offenses to attend AA meetings. As well, coerced participants make up a majority of the ?clients? in 12-step treatment programs administered and overseen by AA addictions ?professionals.? In 1996, fully 40% of re­spondents to AA?s triennial survey stated that a treatment center was one of the (up to) three most important factors ?responsible for [their] coming to A.A.,? and another 16% listed counseling as an important factor. As well, 9% listed?employer or fellow worker? (that is, EAP coercion); 8% listed ?health care provider?; and those who were openly coerced made up a full 16% of the sample: 13% listed court orders; 3% listed correctional facilities.iii As well, at least some of those who listed ?family? were certainly introduced to AA as a result of coercive ?interventions,? though it?s impossible to tell what percentage from the data supplied. Thus, because of the multiple­choice option in the survey, as well as the vagueness of its wording, it?s impossible to state what percentage of AA members belong to it primarily because of treatment centers, 12-step counseling programs, coerced at­tendance via court mandates or correctional facilities, or other forms of coercion. But it?s a certainty that it?s a very high percentage. In all likeli­hood, the percentage of current AA members who joined AA because of coercion is at least a third, and is probably in excess of 40%.iv.  As well, a huge number, probably a large majority, of the ?professionals? and ?para-professionals? employed by both inpatient and outpatient alco­holism treatment programs are zealous AA members who consider AA the be-all and end-all of alcoholism treatment. In many ways, AA serves their needs very well (though not the needs of most of their clients). It provides them with a program with all the answers, a simple program which they can ?utilize? and ?not analyze?; and if that program doesn?t work for many clients, it?s the fault of the clients? ?defects of character? or ?lack of honesty.? So, not only does AA supply a ready-made program, it also supplies a convenient excuse for treatment failures. For these reasons, for the near future AA will undoubtedly continue to be a key part of a very large majority of treatment programs, and all too many inpatient programs will continue to consist of little more than a 14- or 28-day drying out period punctuated by daily AA meetings and group ?therapy? sessions in which clients are pressured to admit that they are diseased ?alcoholics? who need the intervention of a Higher Power to overcome their ?alcoholism.? And all this with a $20,000 bill falling due at the end of ?treatment.?
 "

Art, educate yourself to what your cult is up to.

http://www.morerevealed.com/books/coc/chaptr11.htm
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #122 on: December 02, 2004, 11:00:00 PM »
There is NO PUBLISHED SUCCESS RATE OF AA, only testimonials of current members claiming "millions saved". There are however published reports of the ineffectiveness of this cult.

here is one rather comic 1960s era study....



A controlled study of the effectiveness of A.A. was conducted in San Diego in the mid-nineteen-sixties. It is described in "A Controlled Experiment on the Use of Court Probation for Drunk Arrests", by Keith S. Ditman, M.D., George C. Crawford, LL.B., Edward W. Forgy, Ph.D., Herbert Moskowitz, Ph.D., and Craig MacAndrew, Ph.D., in the American Journal of Psychiatry.1 In the study, 301 public drunkenness offenders were sentenced by the court to one of three "treatment programs". The offenders were randomly divided into three groups:

a control group that got no treatment at all,
a second group that was sent to a professional alcoholism treatment clinic,
and a third group that was sent to Alcoholics Anonymous.
All of the subjects were followed for at least a full year following conviction. Surprisingly, the no-treatment group did the best, and Alcoholics Anonymous did the worst, far worse than simply receiving no treatment at all. When the rates of re-arrests for drunkenness were calculated, the following results were obtained:

Number of Rearrests Among 241 Offenders in Three Treatment Groups
Treatment Group NO
re-arrests Re-arrested
Once Re-arrested 2
or more times Total
No treatment 32 (44%)  14 (19%)  27 (37%)  73  
Professional clinic 26 (32%)  23 (28%)  33 (40%)  82  
Alcoholics Anonymous 27 (31%)  19 (22%)  40 (47%)  86  

In every category, the people who got no treatment at all fared better than the people who got A.A. "treatment". Based on the records of re-arrests, only 31% of the A.A.-treated clients were deemed successful, while 44% of the "untreated" clients were successful. Clearly, Alcoholics Anonymous "treatment" had a detrimental effect. That means that A.A. had a success rate of less than zero. Not only was A.A.-based treatment a waste of time and money; A.A. was actually making it harder for people to get sober and stay sober.

And the A.A. people got rearrested more often after many months of A.A. training -- not in the beginning. The rate of rearrests was the same for the no-treatment and A.A. groups during the first month of treatment (22%), but increased later, after months of A.A. indoctrination:
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #123 on: December 02, 2004, 11:03:00 PM »
Any program is as GOOD as the person who USES/APPLIES it.  The "program" is available tools to use.   USE them - tada!  Don't? ... oh well.

  duh
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #124 on: December 02, 2004, 11:05:00 PM »
And what of AA own published "success rate"? Since they don't have one, you must fall back on their own internal documents that have made it into the public domain.

Remember, this is from the horses  mouth (or the other end).

"For many years in the 1970s and 1980s, the AA GSO (Alcoholics Anonymous General Service Organization) conducted triennial surveys where they counted their members and asked questions like how long members had been sober. Around 1990, they published a commentary on the surveys: Comments on A.A.'s Triennial Surveys [no author listed, published by Alcoholics Anonymous World Services, Inc., New York, no date (probably 1990)]. The document has an A.A. identification number of "5M/12-90/TC". The document was produced for A.A. internal use only. It has a graph on page 12 (Diagram C-1) that shows that newcomers drop out, relapse, leave, or disappear at a staggeringly high rate.8 Averaging the results from the five surveys from 1977 to 1989 yielded these numbers:


81% are gone (19% remain) after 1 month;
90% are gone (10% remain) after 3 months,
93% are gone (7% remain) after 6 months,
and 95% are gone (5% remain) at the end of one year.


Figure C-1 from page 12 of the Commentary on the Triennial Surveys (from 1977 to 1989), A.A. internal document number 5M/12-90/TC
Also see: Addiction, Change & Choice; The New View of Alcoholism, Vince Fox, M.Ed. CRREd., page 66  

That gives A.A. a maximum possible success rate of only 5% (even if you define "success" as staying sober for only one year). That is not what a competent doctor would call good medical treatment. The FDA would never approve a medicine that is only successful on 5% of the patients.

But not even all of those five percent who "Keep Coming Back" for a year are continuously sober. Some of them relapse repeatedly. Those triennial surveys only showed how many people kept coming back to meetings, not how many of them stayed sober for the full year. And then the attrition continues as more and more people leave, year after year. Old-timers with 20 years of sobriety are as rare as hen's teeth. Fewer than one newcomer in a thousand makes it for that long. Such old-timers are treated like visiting royalty when they come to speak at A.A. meetings, just because they are so rare.

Note that we are not told exactly how the GSO decides who is a member. The most likely criterion is the one used by Bill C. in 1965. Charles Bufe pointed out that in a 1965 article in the Quarterly Journal of Studies on Alcohol, Bill C. considered anyone who had attended 10 or more meetings to be a member.5 But that eliminates from the statistics all of those people who came looking for help, and attended a few or several meetings, but who were so put off by the religiosity and cultishness and faith-healing atmosphere that they stopped coming back.

If all of those people were included in the numbers, it would "water down" the claimed retention rate and the claimed success rate to the point where they would be truly pathetic. We would get numbers like, "95% are gone in a month, and 99% are gone in a year."

Actually, the truth might be even worse than that. It seems that the ABC News program 20/20 did a special on recovery that quoted an A.A. spokesman who said that 95% of the newcomers do not even come back for a second meeting.

And also note that the claimed five percent of A.A. newcomers who are still coming back after one year (and sober, we hope) is exactly the same number as the normal rate of spontaneous remission among alcoholics. If we subtract the usual spontaneous remission rate from A.A.'s claimed success rate, we get zero percent for A.A.'s actual effective cure rate. A.A. didn't make anybody quit drinking -- those who quit were the ones who were going to quit anyway. They would have quit anyway, no matter what group they were in, be it the Patty-Cake Treatment Program or the Mickey Mouse Club.

http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-eff ... b_memorial
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #125 on: December 02, 2004, 11:10:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-02 20:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"  Any program is as GOOD as the person who USES/APPLIES it.  The "program" is available tools to use.   USE them - tada!  Don't? ... oh well.



  duh"


ANY PROGRAM?  this assumes that all programs are inherently valuable. This is the wrong forum to make that assertion, Anon, because we as a group know first hand that MANY PROGRAMS are worthless or worse, negative.  Many such "tools" as you assert are actually cultic tools, behavor madification techniques, or repetitious control designed to condition your mind. Not using them is often the correct path to retain sanity and autonomy.

Thanks for your thought filled comment.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #126 on: December 02, 2004, 11:18:00 PM »
"At first nearly every alcoholic we approached began to slip, if indeed he sobered up at all. Others would stay dry six months or maybe a year and then take a skid. This was always a genuine catastrophe."

Alcoholics Anonymous Comes Of Age, William G. Wilson, (1957), page 97.

"You have no conception these days of how much failure we had. You had to cull over hundreds of these drunks to get a handful to take the bait."
Bill Wilson, at the memorial service for Dr. Bob, Nov. 15, 1952; file available here.

" During Bill's stay in Akron, he and Bob calculated their success rate to be about 5 percent, and among the few who seemed to catch on, not all of them were able to maintain consistent sobriety. The first edition of AA's Big Book, published in 1939, contains the personal recovery stories of many of AA's earliest members. Some years later, Bill made notations in the first copy of the book to come off the press, indicating which individuals portrayed therein had stayed sober. A good 50 percent of them had not."
Bill W. A Biography of Alcoholics Anonymous Cofounder Bill Wilson, Francis Hartigan, pages 91-92.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #127 on: December 02, 2004, 11:20:00 PM »
And who is at fault for all this failure..why just ask the (now dead) founder of this organization. You either aren't worken yur program or you are a genetic fuck up.




" Those who do not recover are those who cannot or will not give themselves completely to this simple program, usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault; they seem to have been born that way."
A.A. Big Book, 3rd Edition, William G. Wilson, page 58.
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Offline GregFL

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« Reply #128 on: December 02, 2004, 11:23:00 PM »
Nuff said for now. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  

AA is a sham that has resulted in countless cults and abusive drug centers,including the Seed and Straight, Inc.  The followers of this cult cannot and will not debate the issues but only cry victim and foul when you bring the facts into their face, at the same time resorting to ad hominems like our buddy Art has been doing.

When I was in the Seed the non members used to shout "The Seed Sucks".  this applies as well to the sham scam con known as AA.
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Offline RTP2003

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #129 on: December 03, 2004, 11:39:00 AM »
Quote
On 2004-12-02 20:23:00, GregFL wrote:

"Nuff said for now. I don't know whether to laugh or cry.  



AA is a sham that has resulted in countless cults and abusive drug centers,including the Seed and Straight, Inc.  The followers of this cult cannot and will not debate the issues but only cry victim and foul when you bring the facts into their face, at the same time resorting to ad hominems like our buddy Art has been doing.



When I was in the Seed the non members used to shout "The Seed Sucks".  this applies as well to the sham scam con known as AA.







"


How true.  You simply can not get Groupsters to engage in any kind of meaningful discussion or intelligent debate on the subject of their beloved cult.  This thread has shown us first hand the ways they will start sloganeering and engaging in Cultspeak as soon as any aspect of the Cult is seriously questioned.  I would say that we shouldn't waste our time arguing with Stepcult indoctrinees, but I think it's good that this debate has gone on because it could give someone who was considering AA/NA/other forms of Stepcraft an idea of what these cults are REALLY about---their own cancer-like growth, at the expense of the individuals involved.  Thank you, GregFL, for your thorough and insightful debunking of this scam-filled cult and the propaganda they use to recruit the unwary.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #130 on: December 03, 2004, 12:41:00 PM »
Art, I would really like to know what you think of this.  This was posted in response to your post touting the great success rate of AA.  How do you respond to this?



Quote
There is a high rate of recovery among alcoholics and addicts, treated and untreated. According to one estimate, heroin addicts break the habit in an average of 11 years. Another estimate is that at least 50% of alcoholics eventually free themselves although only 10% are ever treated. One recent study found that 80% of all alcoholics who recover for a year or more do so on their own, some after being unsuccessfully treated. When a group of these self-treated alcoholics was interviewed, 57% said they simply decided that alcohol was bad for them. Twenty-nine percent said health problems, frightening experiences, accidents, or blackouts persuaded them to quit. Others used such phrases as "Things were building up" or "I was sick and tired of it." Support from a husband or wife was important in sustaining the resolution.

Treatment of Drug Abuse and Addiction -- Part III, The Harvard Mental Health Letter, Volume 12, Number 4, October 1995, page 3.

(See Aug. (Part I), Sept. (Part II), Oct. 1995 (Part III).)

Quote
Spontaneous Remission in Alcoholism
A number of studies have found that a small percentage of alcoholics improve to the point of remission of problems associated with alcohol consumption. Bailey and Stewart (235) interviewed alcoholics after three years without treatment and found that about 27 percent of the former patients denied alcoholism. Cahalan (268) in a national drinking practices study noted that drinking problems decrease in men after age 50 and the amount of alcohol consumed also decreases. Cahalan, Cisin, and Crossley (11) in another national survey of drinking practices found that about one-third more individuals had problem drinking in a period before their three-year study period than during the study period itself, suggesting a tendency toward spontaneous remission of drinking problems. Goodwin, Crane, and Guze (269) found that on an eight-year follow-up with no treatment about 18 percent of the alcoholic felons had been abstinent for at least two years. Lemere (238) reported long-term abstinence in 11 percent of untreated alcoholics over an unspecified interval. Kendall and Staton (236) reported 15 percent abstinence in untreated alcoholics after a seven-year follow-up. Kissin, Platz, and Su (203) reported a 4 percent one-year improvement rate in untreated lower class alcoholics. Imber et al. (10) described a follow-up of 58 alcoholics who received no treatment for their alcoholism. It was noted that the rate of abstinence was 15 percent at one year and 11 percent after three years.

 In sum, the preponderance of these studies suggests that a spontaneous remission rate for alcoholism of at least one-year duration is about 4-18 percent. Successful treatment would, therefore, have to produce rates of improvement significantly above this probable range of spontaneous remission.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

10. Imber, S., Schultz, E., Funderburk, F., Allen, R. and Flamer, R. The Fate of the Untreated Alcoholic. J. Nerv and Ment. Dis., 1976, 162:238-247.

11. Cahalan, D., Cisin, I. H. and Crossley, H. M. American Drinking Practices: A National Survey of Drinking Behavior and Attitudes. New Brunswick, Rutgers Center for Alcohol Studies, 1974.

203. Kissin, B., Platz, A. and Su, W. H. Social and Psychological Factors in the Treatment of Chronic Alcoholics. J. Psychiat. Res., 1970, 8:13-27.

235. Bailey, M. B. and Stewart, S. Normal Drinking by Persons Reporting Previous Problem Drinking. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1967, 28:305-315.

236. Kendall, R. E. and Staton, M. C. The Fate of Untreated Alcoholics. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1966, 27:30-41.

238. Lemere, F. What Happens to Alcoholics. Amer. J. Psychiat., 1953, 109:674-675.

268. Cahalan, D. Problem Drinkers: A National Survey, San Francisco, Jossey-Bass, 1970.

269. Goodwin, W. W., Crane, J. B., and Guze, S. B. Felons Who Drink: An Eight-Year Follow-up. Quart. J. Stud. Alc., 1971, 32:136-147.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The Clinical Management of Alcoholism, Sheldon Zimberg, M.D., page 179, footnotes on pages 223 to 234.
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Offline RTP2003

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« Reply #131 on: December 03, 2004, 12:57:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-03 09:29:00, artman11111 wrote:

"you must be very proud of yourself "


Damn right I'm proud of myself---I kicked a six + year heroin addiction, cold turkey, without the use of Stepcraft.  In fact, when I mistakenly believed that Stepcraft was "the only way" to get off dope, I actually went to more than a few NA meetings, which generally left me wanting more dope (even if I had already fixed and wasn't dopesick).  Yes, I am proud of the fact that I kicked junk, and did it no thanks to your fucking cult.  When I believed the propaganda you guys spew, (mainly from my indoctrination at Straight) that "jails, institutions, or death" were the only alternatives to Stepcraft, I pretty much resigned myself to winding up OD'd in some bathroom somewhere.  When I encountered alternatives to Stepcraft, I bit the bullet and kicked heroin.  Your precious Stepcult and it's lies and disinformation did me NO good at all--and it makes me cringe when I think of the many other, superior forms of addiction treatment that are unknown to most addicts due to the Stepcult's near-monopoly on treatment and it's infiltration of the judicial system.  Fuck you and your goddamn cult, Art, it nearly cost me my life believing the bullshit you spout.
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Offline PerfectStraightling

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Poll about Alcoholics Anonymous
« Reply #132 on: December 03, 2004, 01:57:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-12-02 09:48:00, artman11111 wrote:

"Enjoy your cult ??   yes i take that personally

All of your AA info (you said you never been to a meeting) is 2nd hand.Including but not limited to your statistics on success.I dont believe those stats could be accurately documented as AA is a anon program.

In addition,I think it sucks that many court systems and judges use aa as a babysitting job.I never have nor will i ever sign someones slip. Goes against what i believe.

Lighten up already,.The only thing i support is what it and I have done collectively for myself.

Many of my relapses have been as a direct result of not following the suggestions that people have made,or not being honest with myself and others.Life is alot different these days. I am very grateful for this. I owe alot of my success to some very fine people in this "cult" who have gone out of their way on many occasions to be good to me.

You can take your obvious ignorant opinions and banter with someone else.If you havent experienced 1st hand how "horrible" it is... How do you have an opinion??  

 Ginger

He only pointed out the obvious; that, unless you consider occasional sobriety to be successful treatment for alcoholism, Art's story demonstrates how AA actually doesn't work.

 

My many slips have taught me a great deal about myself and how to feel better about myself.. I wouldnt trade it for anything.My life has increased in so many different ways i could be here all day.If what i do isnt working,why am i so happy.Why are so many facets of my life so good today... You have your opinion,I am entitled to the same.. I take great pride in who i am today,it has lots to do with what i do ... AA is not my only solution for recovery,its just been extremely helpful. Therefore when you talk of "occasional sobriety" i find that an insult to both me and the millions who are sober today because of AA groups

I do agree that the self bludgening that i used to do was harmful...AA... Real AA doesnt shoot their wounded... At least not at any of the meetings i attend...

all my best

art





"


So, you are able to differentiate between which groups are good and which ones are bad (ie you trust your own judment), and not feel guilty about relapsing (ie you dont think you're a selfish person who then has NO days of sobriey, even though you didn't drink for X years), the groups you go to don't shame the people that make mistakes (don't call them selfish and self-centered for doing so)...doesn't really sound like AA to me.
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Offline ehm

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« Reply #133 on: December 03, 2004, 02:41:00 PM »
Art, I respect your experience, but AA IS a cult. It may be a cult that keeps people from choosing to drink, but it is still, none-the-less, a cult. But hey, if it works for you, work it.  :tup:
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Offline Cleopatra2U

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« Reply #134 on: December 03, 2004, 06:26:00 PM »
Quote
On 2004-11-24 08:13:00, artman11111 wrote:

"The solution lies in my not attending these forums here at fornits.I have out grown it and it serves no useful purpose in my life today."
...
"i have grown bored of you and of this useless banter at fornits"

Quote
On 2004-11-29 11:07:00, artman11111 wrote:

"I do read some of the goings on here but i no longre have a commment to add.

You people are sick,and i refuse to be a part of this or any other discussion here at fornits."

Quote
On 2004-12-01 09:36:00, artman11111 wrote:

"I dont believe its in mine or anyone's best interest to attend here,though i must say,some people here are great for a laugh,and though I often dont care for what i read here,i keep comin to fornits. Maybe its me who is sick !"

Quote
On 2004-12-01 09:41:00, artman11111 wrote:

"I dont think this place is in my best interest."

Quote
On 2004-12-02 11:55:00, artman11111 wrote:

"I think i am done here... This serves no purpose..."

Quote
On 2004-12-03 11:59:00, artman11111 wrote:

"i wont be coming here anymore... theres nothing to discuss."


I don't know you, Art, and I hope you won't take me using your quotes as a personal attack, but rather as an illustration of how AA's "keep coming back" philosophy can be detrimental.  You must realize that many, if not most, of the people who post here do not share your opinion of AA.  This seems to frustrate you, and yet you "keep coming back" despite yourself.  It is a vicious cycle...  Reminiscient of the alcoholic who keeps returning to drink even though he knows it is bad for him...  And of the 12-stepper who keeps returning to the program even though it is no longer doing him any good...

If you don't like something, stay away from it.  If a 12-step program helps you stay away from that something, great.  But know that a 12-step program could very well be that something that you need to stay away from...  Especially if your feelings about that program are anything like your feelings about Fornits.
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he trouble with trouble is it starts out as fun.