Author Topic: St.Pete straight 1979  (Read 28964 times)

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Offline mh1979

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #300 on: December 05, 2008, 12:21:05 AM »
MARGARET -
I WAS TRYING HARD TO LISTEN TO YOU BUT I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO YOU IN OVER 25 YEARS AND YOU CALL ME A LIAR.
YOU WERE NOT THERE, YOU WERE NOT IN THAT ROOM, THERE IS NO WAY YOU COULD KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
AS FOR THE PROGRAM TIME- YOU CALL ME A LIAR , YET YOU SAY YOU HAVE NO ANGER. I DON'T KNOW WHAT I LIED ABOUT IN THE PROGRAM
WHAT I DO KNOW IS WE ALL LIED IN THE PROGRAM, ABOUT THE DRUGS WE DID, THE BIGGER THE LIST THE BETTER THE IMPRESSION, THE WORDS "LOVE YOU"
HUGGING PEOPLE, SAYING WE REALLY WANTED TO BE THERE AND THE LIST GOES ON.
SO IF YOU NEVER LIED IN THE PROGRAM I WOULD VENTURE TO GUESS YOUR THE FIRST.

I SAID WHAT YOU SAID SOUNDED STAFF LIKE, "YOU SEEM STAFF LIKE".
CHANGE ACCORDING TO WHOM I AM AIMING MY ANGER AT??? I havent been on the board in LONG time and I don't come on here and let loose on people. Man, you really don't know me nor have you even spoken to me in 25 years and yet you suddenly think you know all about my life, my motives, what I do. Yes, now I am a bit angry because I tried hard to discuss with it you nicely.
You see  this is just it, someone shares their heart a PAINFUL experience and just like in group it gets ripped to shreds. THAT IS THE OLD WAY.
NO, I am not saying YOU are being unsuportive. What I am saying is that it is presumptious to come on here , out of nowhere, having not seen or talked to me in twenty five years and call me a liar when I devuldge something very painful for me. Something I havent devuldged my anger about in 25 years. It hurt like hell to think about it again.
I have gone into detail what happened. I don;t care if you don't believe feel free to ask those involved.

I know what I have done to fight them, I know what my morals are, I know what I went through, I know the price i paid for fighting and if you think it isnt a high one ask Richard.
The suvivors know what people like Richard , myself, sammy, mike , chris , ginger , and many many others have done to get even a little justice for everyone.
What have you done except call someone a liar and stay in denial by saying "you were never involved in any of those things".

The odd thing is your whole reason you say is because " you couldnt let it go about john k, that you know it couldnt have happened". Really, so you were there the whole time. It isnt possiable that something happened in there that you didn't know about. I guess if Margaret D doesnt remember it , it never happened huh.

You are certain I am lying about it. YOU werent there. Go ahead ask the others. Look its apparent you have a long way to go to deal with what happened and thats cool and normal.
I am not going to do this on the board with you.
If for your peace of mind you need to know its true. Don't take my word for it. Ask the ones involved. Im sure John remembers, I am sure Kim S does too. John was one of the few staff that didnt abuse people personally, he was mild mannered, a bit funny sometimes but I cant change the facts. Now, he was about 16 or 17 at the time so I guess if you want to stretch it , it was not him that was obligated to report it but the Senior and Ex staff. There is also Chris C who came in the room to break up the fight if you want to ask him.

Forgive my anger but I am stunned that you would come on and presume to know me , my feelings, my motives and tell me what happened to ME what happened and didnt happen to Me in the program. I am sorry that it stunned you, I am sorry if I blew an image you had of john, but the facts are the facts. I will say this John was mild mannered, funny at times and didnt abuse people physically himself at least not that I remember. But his decision those two days, were huge, effected some for life , like that kid and they were the wrong choice. How many times did staff ALMOST EVERY staff order people to be sat on? He was a part of that, sorry but he was. The only lee way I will give him is that he was under age and
YOU NEED TO REMEMBER THAT WHEN I POSTED TO JK, IT WAS IN RESPONSE TO A STAFF MEMBER POSTING - I HAVE NO REGRETS - DID IT GET WORSE AFTER I LEFT? PURE DENIAL IF THAT JK WAS WHO I THOUGHT. Everything matched but it wasnt and I apologized to the boards jk.
Margaret - you might want to check your facts before you call people a liar, you may also want to have talked to them sometime in the last 25 years before pretending to know them, you might want help all the survivors fight straight and help other victims BEFORE you accuse others who have been in this fight from the begining.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline mh1979

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #301 on: December 05, 2008, 12:38:15 AM »
i guess I didnt get started over from that incident either. I guess I didnt spend another year in the program from that either.
People RARELY forget what got them started over.
Ok, now that , that is settled. I am not going into anymore with you.

I have learned my lesson share your heart on a board of survivors -who should be close as vietnam vets - someone will rip you
apart, call you names etc. Oh wait thats what we did to each other in group. Why should we act any different toward each other now right?
Why not give them what they want.

No thanks, Margaret , I left group A LONG TIME ago.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Woof-a-Doof

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #302 on: December 05, 2008, 08:08:58 AM »
Liar Liar pants on fire  ::)

I can barely remember what I did yesterday...much less three decades ago (which sounds better than 30 years ago).

Recalling conversations verbatim is difficult, to say the least. Calling someone a liar is, well, persumptious. Ok, we all lied as was mentioned above. Not forgiving a person for such lies and then aparently harboring specific memories or impressions of a person as a liar...can I go as far to say is prejudice? Can not a person after having gone thru three decades of memories, nightmares amoungst a host of other fucked up bullshit, can't this person be giving the benifit of the doubt....especially after all the time has gone by?

Certain events however are a horse of a completely different color. Not only can I remember words, tone, facial expressions and of course consequences. These are perminately embedded in the forfront of my conciousness. I have no doubt that people wont recall circumstances as they occured the same way I do. Simply put, no one else has or had the same perspective as I had and have. Tolerence of such recall is something not to be trivialized. These memories of mine are mine and mine alone. I would be mortally insulted if the memories were critizied and I would be publicly labled as a Liar. It is not unlike being in "group" telling the truth, opening up, bearing my soul, exposing my throat and handling a sharp blade. It was cruel, it was horror, it was an atrocity for each of us.

Yes, this is what we were trained to do. Rip each other to shreads...for sport. It wasnt done out of love, or compassion, it was a survival technique. Look for a weakness, exploit the weakness and step over the dead bodies to improve our chances at survival....and get the fuck out.

Two monks walked along a path and came to a river. Beside the river the monks found a woman crying and clearly distraught. One of the monks offered to carry the woman safely to the otherside, which she accepted. Once on the otherside they parted ways. About a mile down the path, the other monk ridiculed the generious monk for having physical contact with a female. The generious monk thought briefly and said, "I carried her ten feet....you have carried her for over a mile now"

Margret-vs-Margret

Trust each other, one may not like what the other has said. Perhaps, maybe, could be a possibility that one person saw a diferent facet to JK's personality....and it is a distinct possiblity that JK (like most of us, hide many facets of his personality...for obvious reasons) Who knows perhaps there was a crush on JK and these memories coming to the surface don't jive with the memories of an adolescent crush....and so one strikes out at a percieved threat to a "precious memory"...it could happen.

What was done to us, needn't happen to us again. Yes, we were trained to do such things....but seriously....how's that working out for us? It didn't work then....we paid dearly to learn this. Now, why would we want to continue doing as trained when we know....beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it didn't/doesn't work? This will divide us! More than ever we need to "come together" rather than seperate. Straight Inc. had a "divide and conquer (sp)" mentality....insidious! Are we no better now than we were back then? Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. It I think is the mental/emotional scab we pick at from time to time....why not just let it heal?

Peace is not only possible, but inevitable1
Much Healing
woof
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Offline Froderik

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humor
« Reply #303 on: December 05, 2008, 12:16:30 PM »
Quote
Two monks walked along a path and came to a river. Beside the river the monks found a woman crying and clearly distraught. One of the monks offered to carry the woman safely to the other side, which she accepted. Once on the other side they parted ways. About a mile down the path, the other monk ridiculed the generous monk for having physical contact with a female. The generous monk thought briefly and said, "I carried her ten feet....you have carried her for over a mile now"
An attractive woman gets pulled over for speeding and figures that she will rely on her charms to spare her from getting ticketed like she always has in the past. Much to her chagrin, she discovers that the officer is not a vulnerable creature of the male species, but a smokin' hot blonde chick... Not only THAT -- she also realizes that she left her driver's license at home!

"What the hell am I gonna do now?" she asks herself...

Well the cop asks to see her license and registration, and the hapless woman replies, "Sure...hold on.." and hands over her wallet with a compact mirror opened up inside of it. The blonde officer looks at it and says, "Go ahead, I didn't realize you were a cop..."
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Offline mh1979

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #304 on: December 05, 2008, 02:41:19 PM »
Thank you woof for your insight. You are right so , Margaret D. if in my post my anger came across as an attack I apologize that IS NEVER what i want to do ever again to any survivor. Woof is right that I need to have patience and understanding with where you are in your well, dare I say recovery (for lack of a better word) from straight. We are all at different levels of dealing with it . One is not better than the other, we are just at different stages.
so, in friendship let me offer this- If you ever need someone to talk to I will be there for you no questions asked and we will chalk this up to a difference of opinion and recognozing that we are at different stages.
I do remember Margaret D that we were friends in there for quite awhile, we did the skyway thing together often, we did the skits together that the group loved.
My goal since leaving there is for us as survivors to be a force that can't be divided by the old tactics of divide and conquer or the "confronting" that was mean spirited and not love.

Think of how powerful and effective we would all be as a group if we worked together, protected each other from them, and were commited to helping each other, being there for each other in a true friendship way. How powerful would we be if when one survivor was attacked by the enemy (like through a lawsuit or a threat ) the enemy got an answer from ALL of us, I mean ALL. How much progress could we make toward justice could we make by working together.

Thankyou Woof for the reminder , I was a little blinded by anger and shock, I should have been more understanding and patient. But that is what we are here for , to help each other right?
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Offline Woof-a-Doof

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #305 on: December 06, 2008, 06:46:20 AM »
Quote from: "mh1979"
Thank you woof for your insight. You are right so , Margaret D. if in my post my anger came across as an attack I apologize that IS NEVER what i want to do ever again to any survivor. Woof is right that I need to have patience and understanding with where you are in your well, dare I say recovery (for lack of a better word) from straight. We are all at different levels of dealing with it . One is not better than the other, we are just at different stages.
so, in friendship let me offer this- If you ever need someone to talk to I will be there for you no questions asked and we will chalk this up to a difference of opinion and recognozing that we are at different stages.
I do remember Margaret D that we were friends in there for quite awhile, we did the skyway thing together often, we did the skits together that the group loved.
My goal since leaving there is for us as survivors to be a force that can't be divided by the old tactics of divide and conquer or the "confronting" that was mean spirited and not love.

Think of how powerful and effective we would all be as a group if we worked together, protected each other from them, and were commited to helping each other, being there for each other in a true friendship way. How powerful would we be if when one survivor was attacked by the enemy (like through a lawsuit or a threat ) the enemy got an answer from ALL of us, I mean ALL. How much progress could we make toward justice could we make by working together.

Thankyou Woof for the reminder , I was a little blinded by anger and shock, I should have been more understanding and patient. But that is what we are here for , to help each other right?

MH --- Samyutta Nikaya said "The worse of the two is he who, when abused, retaliates. One who does not retaliate wins a battle hard to win."

In physical,verbal or now, written retaliation, you would had become like the abuser, it becomes a lose-lose situation. So do you let yourself be bullied? No! Stand up for the Truth, defend with the Truth, with Compassion and Wisdom. With nothing more or less.

We all trudge about this planet, like walking wounded. Most of us are deeply and profoundly scarred. The horror, the brainwashing, the abuse and all the hell that went with it...we went thru....and continue to go thru. No thinking individual would not wish for justice. Our time is up, judicially speaking...statutes of limitations and all. Yet there is a justice that we dont control (not that we have any control of the current judical system) I speak of karmatic justice.

Karma will deliver justice, yes, eventually, with or without you. But sometimes, justice can be delivered through you. However, I do not think this can be achieved by our own mental/physical/psychological efforts. When a friend comes to another for some situation or another...we open our mouths not knowing what to say...and find ourselves talking and talking and talking. Later the friend says thanks for your kind words and how much they meant to them, how it effected them etc. How often have we found that we couldnt recall anything we said, the sequence of the words or any other thing about the words. They simply rolled out. All we can really know is the intent inwhich we spoke. I believe we become a channel for that Karmatic Justice. With or without our consent. Kinda like nature, it's magistic, and awe inspiring! (But Mother Nature can be a cold hearted disfiguring bitch as well)  Watch a beautifull sunset, or soon to happen here a sun rise. As an artist I am simply blown away by the beauty....and then to realize that all this is because of just one light source, in 3-D and it's animated...really, it is simply fucking-amazing. And so have confidence in karmic justice then, and have the right sense of justice (of which volumes could be written simply from our own introspection). Delivering justice with Compassion and Wisdom is the way of the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Black Elk, Lao Tsu, the Dali Lama, Mother Theresa and scores of other enlightened teachers. Each of these teachers trascended thier "religions"...they went beyond the top of the class! They each taught we also can transcend our own religion...of hate, anger, resentment, retaliations and attacks....If, as they all said, we simply had a desire to and were willing to go beyond what we are normaly, typically capable of.

The use of ingenious, skillful means, to help sentient beings is the way of these great teachers. Lets call it "spiritual creativity". The realisation, that as many kinds of delusion (confusions, misunderstandings, false memories, and real, haunting memories) there are, there are as many means, appropriate to eradicate them. It is the implementation of Wisdom with Compassion, and soon the manifestation of Wisdom with Compassion follows. Yet I am convinced there has to be no small degree of willingness to be "spiritually creative". This has to be coveted like a thief infront of a thin viel...and on the other side of the viel are treasures beyond measure.

And of course we are human our aim is often high, honorably so...yet often we can loose sight of this and quickly spiral into a seething cauldron of anger, rage, hate and worse, apathy. When I come to re-cognize this is my situation, I simply stop....not always in a gracfull manner. It could be a fifty yard skid, with all the junk in the back seat hurling forward...Takes a moment to gather my senses....am I ok?...Yes, by grace I am ok Was anyone else hurt before I hit the brakes? As I skidded, did I hurt anyone? If so...tend to it. If not, then back to the efforts of being "spiritualy creative".

And yes Margret.....that is what we are here for (vast majority anyway) to help each other!

Continued Healing!
In Peace
woof
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #306 on: December 06, 2008, 08:53:43 AM »
Yes, I agree, we are here to help eachother and we all have the common thread of having gone through something most people will never  understand. But please tell me why it seems to be ok to say anything you want about someone, even if it's not true, simply because you are a straight survivor?? Are you guys for real???
MH gave sworn testimony, available for anyone to see on the internet, that the situations she says happened with John K. happened with Chris C.
I wonder how any of you would feel if someone came here and said things about you that weren't true. Would you all still be supportive to the person who trashed you because they were a fellow survivor?
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #307 on: December 06, 2008, 09:31:02 AM »
Quote from: "this is disturbing"
Yes, I agree, we are here to help eachother and we all have the common thread of having gone through something most people will never  understand. But please tell me why it seems to be ok to say anything you want about someone, even if it's not true, simply because you are a straight survivor?? Are you guys for real???
MH gave sworn testimony, available for anyone to see on the internet, that the situations she says happened with John K. happened with Chris C.
I wonder how any of you would feel if someone came here and said things about you that weren't true. Would you all still be supportive to the person who trashed you because they were a fellow survivor?


I would have to agree with the above post.  It seems mh1979 is the end all be all.  First, "facts" are stated which are rebutted as being false in a given timeline.  Mh1979 disagrees and begins a lengthy verbal assault which begins to soften as she is again challenged.  Still, lashing out mh1979 then decides that we should all get along and be supportive.  Yoda also chimes in quotes obscure proverbs to support mh1979.  If mh1979 decides the truth is how she recalls it, then its gospel.  Everyone's memories fade; even yours mh1979 despite all your efforts.  You have no need to defend your actions against straight; they speak for themselves.  But a little humility to say maybe you don't recall something that occurred 20 something years ago is okay.  I do not know about the sworn affidavit, but if that's true, mh1979 perhaps you should take a second and think before throwing out "facts" that are emotional responses to someone else's recollection.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #308 on: December 06, 2008, 10:49:54 AM »
Something similar, recollection-wise happened to me a couple years ago on another board. I know damn well what happened, there's even witnesses, blah blah blah, but someone who supposedly had a memory of stainless steel #206 (non-rustable) was convinced I was wrong. It's possible that minds turn things around to suit logical or other types of what we think are memories. Who knows? did you tape it? no? well, whatever, it's over now. I lost that fellow survivor as an acquaintance/friend over memory of how shit happened vs what really happened etc... group this group that, fuck group! group's gone. Whatever, no wonder so many people have killed themselves. Damn if you do, damned if you don't. Can you change it? no? ok, case closed. Don't ruin your life now cuz of this bullshit you can't change.

BTW... woof, I'm the monk who carries many miles, but that's surely a cool 'proverb'.

MTS
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #309 on: December 06, 2008, 04:59:58 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "this is disturbing"
Yes, I agree, we are here to help eachother and we all have the common thread of having gone through something most people will never  understand. But please tell me why it seems to be ok to say anything you want about someone, even if it's not true, simply because you are a straight survivor?? Are you guys for real???
MH gave sworn testimony, available for anyone to see on the internet, that the situations she says happened with John K. happened with Chris C.
I wonder how any of you would feel if someone came here and said things about you that weren't true. Would you all still be supportive to the person who trashed you because they were a fellow survivor?


I would have to agree with the above post.  It seems mh1979 is the end all be all.  First, "facts" are stated which are rebutted as being false in a given timeline.  Mh1979 disagrees and begins a lengthy verbal assault which begins to soften as she is again challenged.  Still, lashing out mh1979 then decides that we should all get along and be supportive.  Yoda also chimes in quotes obscure proverbs to support mh1979.  If mh1979 decides the truth is how she recalls it, then its gospel.  Everyone's memories fade; even yours mh1979 despite all your efforts.  You have no need to defend your actions against straight; they speak for themselves.  But a little humility to say maybe you don't recall something that occurred 20 something years ago is okay.  I do not know about the sworn affidavit, but if that's true, mh1979 perhaps you should take a second and think before throwing out "facts" that are emotional responses to someone else's recollection.


Thank you.
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Offline Woof-a-Doof

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #310 on: December 07, 2008, 09:16:40 AM »
Ok...I will try to address the three folks who commented most recently. And since I read them all at once I will address them all at once. So to, "this is disturbing", "Guest" and "Made to Sit" please bear with me. My only free time to read and compose is early in the morning 5am to about 7am...as such, my own memory, perceptions and insights maybe be drastically effected mearly because of the hours that I write. Then please consider I await the surge of caffine to enter my bloodstream and soon the daily medications will kick in...so with all that in mind....cut me a lil slack as I try to work thru this....if only for my own benifit.

Yes...and I still don't know the truth of the matter. I am not sure at the moment what the hub-bub tween Margret & Marget is about. Shit, it took a week before I knew who JK was/is.  The question was brought up, "why it seems to be ok to say anything you want about someone, even if it is not true, simply because you are a Straight survivor?"

Ok, maybe you can help....what was said, will you show a link to the conversation and the subsequent comments that brings you to this question? Addressing the question "Are you guys for real?"...Sure, with memories that are crystal clear along with lapses of time and memory during my incarceration at Straight Inc. If I have a memory of an incident and it is crystal clear, what am I supossed to do with it? Swallow it? Carry it to my grave? Get with a priest? Parents arent a good choice. I haven ever had a discussion about Straight Inc. with my mother or father that ended well.. Where do I go?

Alas, a forum is formed, unmoderated. And I have the capasity to say exactly what I am feeling, faces I am seeing, names as I recall them. As far as I know, I have a freedom here to speak...admittedly, I maybe wrong in regard to names, faces, dates and circumstances. I know this about myself, so I tend to write and discuss emotions, which certainly are not facts and I don't pretend for them to be presented as such. There are moments of clarity and when I write in a moment of lucid thought...names, faces, events, circumstances, witnesses and circumstances are as if they occured moments ago. Yet I still tend to write with an emotive style...I don't plan to write and disclose a name in a flipant manner, however the best of intentions when I sit to write go far astray and names/circumstances end up in black and white.

Now I know my memory is shot way the fuck out (obviously an understatement), due to time that has passed, alot of ETOH (which I havent had in well over a decade) and alot of THC. Any one who knows me well knows this. If I tell you I am not absolutely sure of something...I will tell you...I am not absolutely sure. If I say to you...I know this for fact...Its fact. Having others that have a better recall of the implied events, memories,

conversations...I make it a point to talk with them. And names are important also...convience is one thing, putting a name to a memory...capturing a face that goes to a name.  Personally, I draw a line tween phasers and staff. I will make effort to poorly type a person like [email protected] @nderson. Even with that, I often feel awkward. But staff members I have no objection, zilch, nothing...no hesitation.

For example, Doug Heminger. Perhaps he has changed, however, he was a sadistic, cruel and evil bastard that loved what he did. Now I know many people will tend to agree with me, and thats ok...and possibly those who disagree, and thats ok. Now, another staff member who rose thru the ranks, Dave McAdams. He was my new comer, I liked him, I thought he was funny. I never saw a streak of meanness in him. Yet there are people who will disagree with me...and thats ok as well. They are my memories and people have said other things about Dave McAdams that dont mesh with my memories of him. This does not make my memories false, nor does it make any others asserations about Dave McAdams false either. I have a friend on here, who was my very first oldcommers roommate...Sam Kinison. He and I have an unspoken agreement to agree to disagree.

Case in point Dave Crock. Sam's memory of Dave Crock and experience with Dave Crock is very different from my own. I hate him, Dave Crock that is and the other side of the coin shows that Sam really has fond memories of Dave Crock. Who is wrong? Who is right? Which is a correct recollection...and which is a false recollection....neither/both? This has nothing to do with the title of being a "Straight Inc Survivor". But everything to do with experiance, perception and memory. As I am entitled to my memories, Sam also is entitled to his memories.  Now if he spoke of Dave Crock in a way that does not coincide with my own memories....this does not make my friend Sam a liar. And the opposite is also true. If spew my rage against Dave Crock and it doesn't jive with Sam's memory, this does not make me a liar. Sam and I understand perceptual diferrances, differrnces in experiances, that memories have loope holes and that over three decades memory by it's very own nature begins to do funy things even with the most crystalized of memories.

Which brings up the point of your countering MH "sworn testimony" by saying it wasn't JK, that it was Chris C.  Haveing said this before, I run the risk of being redundant...Once I know the truth, I have to ask myself if I really know the truth. And obviously, no, I do not know the truth, but only versions and perceptions of the truth. Now to me, switching blame from a "sworn testimony" and adding a third party only muddies the waters. And sheds no light on the subject at all, it only obfuscates(sp...and I think thats the right word) the situation. Am I to now assume that it was Chris C?. Again, I dont know anything about the incident....could never find it...tired of looking for it....so, from the get-go I have no clue. I am told the truth and then informed of another truth. I am no judge, nor a jury...it would take a act of congress to allow me to be either one. However, I am, as we all are, in a unique position to listen to both sides.

"How would I feel if someone came here and said things about me that weren't true. Would I still be supportive to the person who trashed me because they were a fellow survivor?"

Fair question. Lemme see if I can explain how I tend to handel it. Some one comes and says "Woof wears a red shirt, and is still wearing it." When I look at the facts, I see I am wearing a green shirt. In an effort to set the record straight (no pun) I inform this person that no, I am not wearing a red shirt. Fact is, I am wearing a green shirt. Same person refuses my explaination and again swears about the red shirt. Again, I review the facts, I am wearing a green shirt...does it warrant a second explaination on the board that in fact I am partial to green and am wearing a green shirt? Perhaps...sometimes I can be very passionate about the fact...I am wearing a green shirt. At what point does the conversation, dialouge or debate become moot? Is it worth it, in terms of my own sanity, my internal landscape to be in upheaval in order to convince the other person I am in a Green Shirt? At some point it is a futal effort and I personally have to withdraw or disengage from the debate. Yet maybe that person remembers my parents always brought me in red shirts. As a result, all this person can see me in is a red shirt, just as I was when siting in the middle of the group. But what the hell...three decades have gone by and my tastes have evolved and no longer live with parents that love to put red shirts on my back...I make my own descions now, I changed...and I buy green shirts. And yet the person still smears my name and associates me with red shirts. What can I do? Perhaps this person and I will one day meet, at a gathering or whatever and see me in a green shirt.

Another analogy..short and sweet...A person offers me a heaping handfull of dog shit. He extends his hand and asks me to to take it. I polietly, yet firmly refuse his offering of shit. What becomes of the shit? If they offer and I refuse, they are left with the handfull of shit. After all, it is not my shit, this shit apparently belongs to the rightful owner and so they are left with the handfull of shit. Thier shit, not mine.

My favorite line in the three responces, "Yoda also chimes in quotes obscure proverbs to support mh1979" Perhaps it is self centered of me to assume that "Yoda" was a jab at me. If so, lets review. The quote was "The worse of the two is he who, when abused, retaliates. One who does not retaliate wins a battle hard to win." Seemed appropriate to the circumstance and continues to fit, so I am not sure how or why that may be seen as "supportive" As I read the quote and as I understand the quote, it is not a supportive line. In fact it says just the opposite. Interesting line at the end, "One who does not relatiate wins a battle hard to win". In essence...stand down.

The proverb of the monks was to illustrate that carrying such baggage for extended time, is more troublesome, more cumbersome than the original incident. The proverb was interpreted as "supportive" to mh1979. No, just the opposite. The intent of the proverb of the monks was to gently suggest mh1979 to release the hostility, the anger and the rage. That it may do her more harm than good to dwell over the incident. What may appear as cathartic opportunity for her may backfire and produce results within that she had not anticapated. Yet the question remains for her own health, her own healing...I ask you what I asked in the beging of this post....What do you suggest she do to deal with this memory of said incident?

It was implied, and correctly so, that I support mh1979. I have two horrid memories of incidents involving mh1979. My memory is of a young girl in a real shitty situation...what was done to her, that which I saw with my own eyes was inexcusable. After three decades I carried these memories not sure of the persons name. Recently, these memories and the name associated with the memories were confirmed...the young girl abused was indeed mh1979. I was helpless in both situations to help or to even lend moral support. I don't feel guilt as a general rule. But I carried this guilt for over three decades now. mh1979 released me from the bondage of this guilt.

We may not have seen each other in three decades, I wouldnt know her if I were to walk past her on the street or even to sit across from her in a coffee shop. But a bond has been formed tween us...so to that extent, yes, absolutely, without a doubt I support mh1979. Because now I can! I understand she is subject to memory lapse as much as I am...I have made no effort to confirm her statements or deny them...it is none of my buisiness. But does she have my support as a "Straight Survivor" to another "Straight Survivor" abso-fucking-lutely!

I cant involve myself with the situation of the "incident"...I wasn't there...I support a human being, with all the frailties of my own and dare I say...the frailties we all have. If that can't be seen as simple compassion for another human being, a "Straight Survivor"...then the problem of sight is not mine, but your own. Oddly enuff, I have a certain compassion for that as well.

Made to Sit---  Ya brought up valid points on memories and faith in those memories. We tend to cling to what we believe to be true, based on memories. Memories, in general I think should be questioned, investigated and brought out into the daylite. Some memories like you mentioned, "we know damn well what happened" iron clad kinda memories. With out sounding contridictory (sp) I also believe it is possible that minds turn things around to suit logical (reasoning) or other types of what we think are memories. Convoluted memories make an excellent defence mechanisim, built for survial of our sanity. But this does not discount all memories as bullshit defence mechs. Your right, damned if ya do, damned if ya dont. Cant change it, couldnt rearrange it....so there it was..

Apologies for the long winded post. There is an undercurrent of hostility and I felt it need be addressed. There is no right, or wrong here in my eyes, only neutral. There is however a need I see to be right and the willingness to battle over this need to be right...at the expense of others. I have to ask myself sincerly would I rather be right, or happy. Vast majority of the time, I would rather be happy, than right. It is not my wish to stomp on any toes, or to pee on anyones parade and diffinately dont want to piss anyone off by expressing my opinions here as I have. I have written these words...

In Peace
woof

PS: The Yoda comment...sharp, wee bit sarcastic, timely.....yet very witty and funny...brought a smile to my face....not sure if that was the intent, but thats how it was percieved. Thanks for your candor!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
What is right is not always popular...What is popular is not always right

Offline seamus

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #311 on: December 08, 2008, 11:59:51 AM »
aw cmon MR D you were in straight ,youve been called MUCH worse....... :nods: check pms :seg:
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline seamus

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #312 on: December 08, 2008, 12:08:42 PM »
Wasnt it STRAIGHTS job to kick the fuck out of us? So um... why do we kick the fuck out of each other? somebody tell  Josey Wales the war is over,nobody understnds us but us,why fuck that up.Heres a concept, what if it was "us against them" insted of "us against us"? :nods:
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It\'d be sad if it wernt so funny,It\'d be funny if it wernt so sad

Offline Anonymous

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #313 on: December 08, 2008, 08:28:11 PM »
Come on now, us vs. us and us vs them... is a very different pill to swallow when one of "us" is remembering something that just does not jive time line wise.

Woof...I have read your posts over the years and enjoyed your insight, but the green/ red shirt example just doesn't work here.
If, during a specific time line where I knew you, someone  made  posts about you being abusive and doing horrible things that could not have happened because you were not there at the time...would you still be ok with what that person said....simply because they were a fellow programee??? I don't think so. Memory fades..this is true for all of us, but when you give sworn testimony where you name a specific person and a very specific incident...and then later, you change the name, for whatever reason, but the incidents remains the same...something just isn't right.

There is no war here... no hidden hostility or anger and certainly no Margaret vs. Margaret.
My comments were based on what MH has said in her sworn testimony. Am I wrong to bring that up? Does that make me staff like?
I actually think that makes me an individual that's not afraid to speak the truth, which is something we were never encouraged to do while we were held captive.

I wish peace and healing for all of us...but I will not step aside and be silent  when I hear something that quite simply...isn't true.
I remember being crushed for having an opinion that didn't go along with the " group think" mentality.
Thankfully, I'm not afraid anymore.

Peace and a happy holiday to you all,

Margaret D.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anonymous

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Re: St.Pete straight 1979
« Reply #314 on: December 11, 2008, 10:33:25 PM »
The post two up brings up a good point that I must admit , in my shock I didnt think of. Your perception of John may be and obvioulsy is quite different than mine. Yes memories fade but i think all survivors have those few memories that effected them so much it is a picture like we are seeing it today, engrained in our brain.
To say he wasnt there is untrue plain and simple. He was on junior staff , he was there during the time frame. Remember Margaret I came in before you and didnt leave until 1982 so he was absolutely there during that time. You have to remember i was there longer than anyone had been at the time. Take a look carefully at what I wrote. I NEVER said he abused ME. I did say that he and lethas decision on the 14 day refresher disgusted me. Perhaps though it wasnt their decision , perhaps it came down from higher up but the fact is thats what they got.

I myself was disturbed by going over, cried, suffered nightmares a few nights and to be honest you don't forget when you pull a knife on someone especially on someone that prior to that you had no real bad memories of. Letha on the other hand different story.

As for David Crock I have one of those burned in memories that is NOT pleasent of having my face shoved in a drain for hours in the Gandy building, it smelled like shit. I remember him coming by opening the door to the girls bathroom and saying "Had enough". I saw him four years ago, and confronted him. I will never forget that incident either, its burned in my brain.  
Margaret I NEVER said John abused me what I said was he was there , Letha ordered the beating and i failed to comply, john and letha came in, John was just there because he and letha were in charge of morning rap. To say that staff never abused anyone, mentally or physically or say that any of us never did is to just be in denial. We all did. We did what we had to . The point was some enjoyed it, some only did it to survive. I never saw John as one that enjoyed like Richard KNowles.

Look as a survivor, I have always supported the survivors and have nothing to prove. I just cant figure out how you say he was not there. Ask him he will tell you he was on staff , with Letha. Plain and simple. I did lash out Margaret only because I was shocked that another survivor could flat call me a liar having known nothing about me. For me lashing out at you I apologise. I am human

I agree with what I and many others have said before it should be that we help each other not attack each other.  i have done all i can to resolve this with you, I have said when i was wrong , apologised for my anger yet you have conseeded nothing. Thats ok. I appreciate the insight of all the ones that have posted. But I can see that your experience was diffent with him than mine. Of all the staff, John I can honestly say I never saw him abuse anyone. To say that he was perfect or never mentally abused anyone or never failed as staff is to say that there are survivors and staff that are completely innocent. Im not. I dont know any that are. The question again is who enjoyed and got off on the control and who didnt. Which ones of us did it for survival and truly feel guilty about it and given the chance would from our heart apologise.

i hope this helps and ends this. This energy including my own can be better spent helping each other.

Mh1979
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »