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Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform => Straight, Inc. and Derivatives => Topic started by: Anonymous on October 21, 2004, 10:14:00 AM

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 21, 2004, 10:14:00 AM
Hello everyone,
My name is margaret and when I was in the program in 1979 my last name was ********. I recently googled Straight inc. and came up with the straight alumni site.Seems that most of the people there were well after my time ( I'm getting old!) but someone recommended that I try this one in the hopes of finding another St.Pete survivor from aroung that time.I had no idea that there had been so many programs all over the country and that there were so many of us!If anyone out there was in St. Pete in 1979-1980 I would love to talk to you.
Margaret
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on October 21, 2004, 09:42:00 PM
Hyya Margaret
There are a few of us around from that time period. I was there from January 21st 1978 till 80-81'ish. I was in the old Milton Roy building as well as the Morgan Yacht building.
Welcome to the site, I also did a google on Straight (gawd knows why). I also found the site you mentioned and found this one shortly afterwards.
I haven't been able to post near as much as I had orginally hoped but have been able to do alot of reading here. Been an interesting ride, to be sure. I look forward to more post from you and hopefully I will be able to write more also.
Welcome! :wave:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: whiterabbit on October 21, 2004, 10:06:00 PM
Hi Margaret!

I was in St Pete Straight from October 1980 -1983. I was in a bit later than you but not by much.

Love Ya Margaret........and welcome
 :em:

The prestige of government has undoubtedly been lowered considerably by the Prohibition law. For nothing is more destructive of respect for the government and the law of the land than passing laws which cannot be enforced. It is an open secret that the dangerous increase of crime in this country is closely connected with this.
--Albert Einstein, My First Impression of the U.S.A., 1921

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: kpickle39 on October 22, 2004, 08:17:00 AM
Hello - welcome to the forum.  I was in in St. Pete straight, Dec 78 - March 1980.  And, yes, we are all getting old.  Heck, I'm a grandpa already.

Mike Sherman, Straight St. Pete
78 - 80
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on October 23, 2004, 02:34:00 PM
I remember you ,kinda. Iwas in morgan yacht bld.2/79-6/80
I left florida for good in 91
 :tup:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on October 25, 2004, 05:18:00 AM
Hi Margaret,  I remember 2 or 3 Margarets from that time period.  You probably remember Anthony Niccocia's dad drowning us with free orange juice from Tropicana.  That was one of the few good memories.  They also had the flood of May 8th, the only day that Straight closed early.

I barely knew you, because I was on my higher phases.  I also think you lived outside of Pinellas County.  I do remember one night as a 7 stepper, getting dragged to Westshore Mall in Tampa because it was some girls birthday.  They celebrated at an ice cream parlor restaurant called Farrell's.  When the waitress came and took our order, one of the girls I did'nt know too well said she wanted her Sundae 'nutless' and all the girls started laughing so hard they went into vapor lock, that was'nt you was it?  It was pretty damn funny and caused quite a scene.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2004, 02:09:00 PM
Hey! So glad to hear from you guys! Gald to know that there are still some of us out there.I had forgotten about the orange juice Day jerk!!Thanks for the laugh. I lived in Sarasota while in the program.Remember when that tanker hit the skyway
 bridge? We had just gone over it on our way to the program right before it got hit.I remember when I found out what happened wishing we had left later so the bridge would have been shut down when we got there,and maybe we wouldn't have to go in. Of course I never actually said that to anyone, god forbid, I probably would have been started over! I remember one other Margaret and she was from Sarasota too. Her brother was in the program as well. I can't remember his first name but their last name was Heath. Ring any bells? One of the things I remember about Margaret Heath is that she stood up the first day I was in the program as one of the people who new me and had done drugs with me and I had never set eyes on her in my life.Funny the stuff you remember.
No, I'm not the girl who wanted her sundae "nutless".After I seven stepped I only came back to St.Pete a handful of times and only when I was forced.
Who was it that asked about Wanda? How could you ever forget her? She was such a bitch. I remember every time we would find out that she was leading a rap you just knew something bad was gonna happen.Anyone know what ever happened to her?
Day jerk, do you remeber the old saturday night live scit with Gilda Radner doing Lisa loopner?
Her hair in a ponytail on the top of her head, glasses, acting all nerdy? I use to do that in group every once in a while when they asked me. Sound familiar?
So glad to know that you guys are out there!!
margaret
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 25, 2004, 02:09:00 PM
Hey! So glad to hear from you guys! Gald to know that there are still some of us out there.I had forgotten about the orange juice Day jerk!!Thanks for the laugh. I lived in Sarasota while in the program.Remember when that tanker hit the skyway
 bridge? We had just gone over it on our way to the program right before it got hit.I remember when I found out what happened wishing we had left later so the bridge would have been shut down when we got there,and maybe we wouldn't have to go in. Of course I never actually said that to anyone, god forbid, I probably would have been started over! I remember one other Margaret and she was from Sarasota too. Her brother was in the program as well. I can't remember his first name but their last name was Heath. Ring any bells? One of the things I remember about Margaret Heath is that she stood up the first day I was in the program as one of the people who new me and had done drugs with me and I had never set eyes on her in my life.Funny the stuff you remember.
No, I'm not the girl who wanted her sundae "nutless".After I seven stepped I only came back to St.Pete a handful of times and only when I was forced.
Who was it that asked about Wanda? How could you ever forget her? She was such a bitch. I remember every time we would find out that she was leading a rap you just knew something bad was gonna happen.Anyone know what ever happened to her?
Day jerk, do you remeber the old saturday night live scit with Gilda Radner doing Lisa loopner?
Her hair in a ponytail on the top of her head, glasses, acting all nerdy? I use to do that in group every once in a while when they asked me. Sound familiar?
So glad to know that you guys are out there!!
margaret
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: gduncan on October 26, 2004, 08:08:00 AM
Hi Margaret,

Welcome to the board.  I was in St Pete '80-'81 before shipping off to Atlanta when the program branched out.  Your name sounds kind of familiar and I think you were on a higher phase when I began my unfortunate incarceration.  It's amazing some of the things you'll remember when you start reading some of the posts.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: aynsmom on February 03, 2005, 03:32:00 PM
I know I Know your name.Were you from Sarasota ? I was from Sarasota before Straight .I'm kind of curious to find out some of the names.I see so many anyomous's on the boards.My name was Lisa Hunter. :silly: It is amazing to find this is'nt it.I have'nt been on in awhile.Keep in touch
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 03, 2005, 08:43:00 PM
Hi Margaret

Its Margaret Heath. I remember you well. You were in Sarasota too. Do you remember tying your hair up on the top of your head and putting glasses on and acting like a goof...


I remember you so well. I would love to talk to you. my aim is [email protected]

Man , too much here to remember or post so get a hold of me. Good to see you and welcome....
Glad your ok
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 09, 2005, 02:02:00 PM
Paging M. DeDne didnt want to put your full real name up, but you can contact me. I remember you well , we were foster sisters. Ask ginger to give you the contact info for the Sarasota survivor who met her at fame haven. Ginger is the [email protected]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Dr. Miller Newton on February 09, 2005, 02:06:00 PM
No talking out in group! :flame:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: mbell1960 on August 25, 2005, 04:42:00 PM
Hey Margeret, I was there the same period you were. I stumbled on this site recently. It is good to see so many people from our teen years still around and what they have been up to the past 25 years or so. I remember the donated orange juice we got. Bob Patterson has an astounding memory for for things that happened a quarter of a century ago!!!  Also is strange when Mike Sherman talks of being a grand dad! In my minds eye I still see him as the 15,16 year old I had remembered. Anyway welcome and hope you have a wonderful conclusion to a long and strange trip its been! 'grateful dead'
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2005, 05:51:00 PM
Hi, Margaret.  This is John K. I did my sentence from 77-79 and then worked until 81 on staff. I remember almost all of the people mentioned on this page.  I used to be a junior staff member in Sarasota and led raps to try and make people think and guess at what we were actually talking about.  Little did most people know I had no idea what I the topic was either.  I remember you and Margaret Heath (hello).  Your mom used to work at Sun Bank and I believe we visited her there  once or twice. It's pretty weird to be having a flashback like this.  I remember your goofy hair and making everybody laugh like crazy but I suppose that would be called "playing games" back then.  Crazy times.  

I completely stumbled onto this site and am utterly confused and appalled by the things that are mentioned.  I feel awful that so many people have had these tragic things happen to them. As a staff member back then I thought we were actually helping people.  Yes, it was too strict and rigid, but I never saw anything like the things that are posted here.  I don't know what to think.  Was I a blind fool or did things go terribly wrong after I moved on?  I was young, only 12 when starting and 16 when leaving the staff. What happened?

I have no regrets from the "program" except that it was quite confusing for a 12 year old to be suddenly left 50 miles from home.  I have been fortunate I guess.  Maybe because I was so young.  I don't know.  

Well, I hope you've fared better than most and to those of you who are reading this I am so sorry.  I did not experience the things you did but damn the people who did these things.

PS.  I do remember Dion and Charles (the black guys mentioned in another thread).  Charles was my newcomer.  Haven't thought about him in....25 years.  Yes, I'm old too.  Best wishes to all!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on August 25, 2005, 08:33:00 PM
Hi John K., I was not in the St. Pete Straight, but I wanted to ask you why you left staff - if your perspective changed or if you saw things going on that you did not want to be a part of. Perhaps you would be willing to email me at [email protected]. I would like to be able to stay in touch with former staff members who come around as I have many questions about that role and what you might know that someone who was not on staff would not have known. Thank you.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2005, 08:11:00 AM
I just thought it was time to move on.  I had college plans and a pre-college summer course before my senior year to attend.  During my senior year I had the benefit to be able to be friends with people who were still in the program and/or graduated, but also some who had left.  I felt that if I knew them inside the walls of Straight there was no reason to pretend they didn?t exist outside.  As long as they wanted to talk to me I would talk to them.

As I said before, unless I was a blind fool, I didn't see the things that have been posted.  It truly disappointed me that things got to be like that.  I know there were staff members on power trips, but you find that in the real world too. I remember the Newton guy when he first arrived and wasn't impressed.  I remember some woman in Sarasota who was on her own power trip to take over but I can't remember her name.  She was skinny with an ugly tight perm in her hair.  That was about the time I left.  Maybe that's when thing s began to change, I don't know.

I still believe we helped a lot of people.  I just don't understand what happened.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2005, 09:38:00 AM
i came to st. pete in '82, and you're right that things must have changed.  there was a staff member named shaun arnow, who was skinny with a tight perm, and was on a power trip.  i wonder if that's the person you mentioned.  anyway, the group was over 300 i would guess, and it was like an insane mob of sweating, flapping, screaming, and thudding coming from the back rooms where people were being thrown around.  there were always at least a couple kids in back of group being sat on by 5-6 other kids.  it was hell.  we didn't have any goofing off with kids acting like gilda radner.  we never laughed.  there was only screaming and crying, and fear.  miller newton was a sadistic maniac who struck fear in everyone the second he walked into group.  he grabbed girls by the hair and threw them around.  open meeting review was a screaming session that often went on until the early morning hours.  when it was finally over, we'd stand in line, heel to toe, for an hour or so before being allowed to leave the building.

i'm glad your experience wasn't so hellish, but things really did get ugly in '82, especially with miller newton.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Idreamofnewtonsburning on August 26, 2005, 03:06:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-08-26 06:38:00, Anonymous wrote:

  miller newton was a sadistic maniac who struck fear in everyone the second he walked into group.  he grabbed girls by the hair and threw them around.  open meeting review was a screaming session that often went on until the early morning hours.  when it was finally over, we'd stand in line, heel to toe, for an hour or so before being allowed to leave the building.



i'm glad your experience wasn't so hellish, but things really did get ugly in '82, especially with miller newton."


And people wonder why I hate Miller Newton so much!  If you weren't subjected to his own personal brand of Straight, you have no fucking idea how hellish it was.  I'm not trivializing anyone else's experience at Straight, but with Newton in charge, you had all of Straight's bullshit combined with Newton's quack psychobabble abuse thrown in.  The man deserves all the hate, ridicule, and scorn that can be thrown his way, from lawsuits and protests to psychic warfare techniques to punk ass pranks like middle of the night phone calls (his phone # is 727-392-3437) and stories on websites questioning his sexual proclivities.  Newton was a worse bastard than Petermann and Riddle combined, the abuses that he perpetrated at KIDS prove this.  The man is a menace who must be stopped, not only to prevent his shit from victimizing others, but also to make an example of him to other would-be Newtons.  Let them know that asswipes like him will be haunted by their actions for the rest of their lives, and then their graves will be shit on, and their loved ones taunted at the funeral.  I can't wait to dance on that mutherfucker's grave, it will be a beautiful day.  I only wish that he suffers greatly before it happens.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on August 26, 2005, 06:03:00 PM
Hyya John K.

My intake was January 21st, 1978

In reading this, and other posts of that time period I have also noticed many things had gotten worse. We had Hellen Peterman, and George Ross (what a baffoon...rarely mentioned...but still a baffoon)

You know the Dave Crock and the wife Cynthia, Chris Casslor, Doug Heminger, perhaps Amy Wright, And her hubby Mike (name escapes me).

You mentioned in a post "led raps to try and make people think and guess at what we were actually talking about."

There never really was a clear cut goal, objective or idea what we were suppossed to do to graduate/7th step (whatever). No objective.

So, one is left to flounder a meager existance through the day. In constant fear of being "stood up"...

Honesty is the best policy, is the best policy of the dishonest...I probably learned that in a rap being lead by people with no objective goals...cept perhaps the terroisistic milliue. Then again that was a constant. Was it a contstant or was it the objective?

You were 16 when you left staff. I have always thought one of the primary things inherantly wrong with Straight (at the time) was absolute control of lives placed on a 16-18 year old.

Tottal control was given to children? Who further reported to other children? Who then got with young adults (Dave Crock couldnt have been over 24 at the time) And then right to Hellen Peterman. (chain of command....Hmmmm)

Not a single licsenced professional in the place. Who was the registered dietician that thought up the swimmers? (you know...the frozen peanut butter and jelly sandwhiches)

You and I do differ on thinking that things werent that bad during the time period inwhich we were incarcerated. Remember Marget Heath, you said hello to her, remember what she went thru? That was fucked up! Having Dion sing "Pick a Bale of Cotton" if only for Liz Cassidy's ammusement...thats fucked up. Standing a kid up and confronting him on a sexual relationship with his mother...thats fucked up!

I digress...

You said "I have been fortunate I guess. Maybe because I was so young."

I think your fortunate to have survived. I am surprised that a staff member would venture to write here. I must admit I am torn. In thinking about this post today I found myself ready to lash out at you...the thought still excites some to be frank about it. However...I won't.

You were 16, you were caught up in an incredible mind fuck. You were 12 when you had your intake. You were indoctrinated, you were not blind, it only stands to reason you question perhaps having had been foolish.

Having also "stumbled" on to this discussion board, I had found the whole 'past straight regression' thing has been trying, at best. It seemed that a floodgate had opened and I was besieged with memories (mostly fragmented), no nightmares, just day dreams or "getting into my head" as it were.

I want to forgive you. Not for your sake, but for my own. I find that what I want and the instinctual reality are incongruent with each other, especially after reflecting just a bit.

This is nothing to do with you personally John K. (as my sub topic indicates...I cant place the name) Forgiveness for you will be realitively easy. But I want so desperately to cast out a blanket of forgiveness over that whole time period...as of this writting I am having marginal success.

I hope you accept the nature of my reponce as one of peace...although my emotions and words may say otherwise (rather like staring a shepard in the eyes while he wags his tails and growls at the same time...unnerving, I know) Yet the epicenter of my hope is that you know at least one of us in the sea of faces you have seen wants to forgive. At least willing to try...
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on August 26, 2005, 08:14:00 PM
Thank you for your honest response.  I knew Margaret and I remember Dion, but I do not remember the specifics of their treatment.  I wish I did because maybe I could make more sense of things.  Let me try to explain my confusion.  Truly the last time I thought in depth about Straight had to have been over twenty years ago until yesterday when I stumbled onto this site.  When I left Straight I had no inkling that things of this nature were happening or were about to begin happening.  In my mind I left a treatment center getting my life back on track to finish school and along the way helping some people by relating my experiences.  Naive?  Apparently.  

I do recall times of my own humiliation by staff but I guess I chalked it up to a part of the learning process in the program.  All I know is I came into Straight doing drugs, skipping school, stealing, etc.  When I finally left, those things were no longer a part of my life.  So that was my perception of Straight as a part of my life until yesterday.  Does that make any sense?   Now I?m trying to sort things out based on the things I?m reading here.

I never heard anything even in the news about Straight and had no idea it had expanded across the country.  Now I'm in a position questioning whether what I thought was being helpful was actually causing trauma.  In my heart I still believe people were helped because I know some of those people to this day.  And I do believe I was helped at that particular time in my life.  Had it been a year or two later it seems obvious that things would be completely different.

I understand your anger and others too.  The things described here are inexcusable and barbaric.  In a lot of ways I wish I never stumbled across this website, but I suppose it was meant to be.  I just need to keep sifting through this website.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Idreamofnewtonsburning on August 26, 2005, 11:23:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-08-26 17:14:00, Anonymous wrote:

  Let me try to explain my confusion.  Truly the last time I thought in depth about Straight had to have been over twenty years ago until yesterday when I stumbled onto this site.  When I left Straight I had no inkling that things of this nature were happening or were about to begin happening.  In my mind I left a treatment center getting my life back on track to finish school and along the way helping some people by relating my experiences.  Naive?  Apparently.

You were too young to have formed an adult personality and a real definition of right and wrong.  Naive, in your words.  You had no adult frame of reference to filter the Straight experience through, so you accepted them as normal or at least justified and acceptable.  The fact that you were engaging in normal adolescent rebellious behavior is not justifiable to the "treatment" you were subjected to.  You were easily indoctrinated.  There is no shame in this fact, you were a child and succumbed to methods that have broken trained military personnel. A child, having no adult experiences, is more easily moldeable, which is why Pol Pot used children as his executioners during the Khmer Rouge regime in Cambodia.


Quote

I do recall times of my own humiliation by staff but I guess I chalked it up to a part of the learning process in the program.

Accepting the humiliation and abuse of Straight indicates that you were indoctrinated into the cult.  Again, no shame or guilt on your part, you were a child and could not recognize what was going on.  The idea that our lives in Straight were anything approaching normal or even "therapeutic" is patently ridiculous, and to accept them as 'part of the learning process' indicates the extent to which you were deceived by Straight, Inc.'s indoctrination and brainwashing methods.

Quote
All I know is I came into Straight doing drugs, skipping school, stealing, etc.  When I finally left, those things were no longer a part of my life.  So that was my perception of Straight as a part of my life until yesterday.  Does that make any sense?   Now I?m trying to sort things out based on the things I?m reading here.

You were engaging in adolescent behavior that, while not the most desirable, hardly warranted incarceration in a teen torture facility that was Straight, Inc.  Most likely you would have figured things out and outgrown behaviors that were not productive and beneficial.  There was nothing remotely therapeutic or beneficial about Straight, Inc., it was a 24/7, 365-day a year (366 during leap years) physical, emotional,  and psychological abuse machine that has damaged many people's lives.  The fact that we accepted abuses such as Straight, Inc.'s as normal or appropriate was indicative of the process they used to dehumanize us by calling us "druggies", implying that we were somehow defective and that only Straight, Inc. could "restore us to sanity".  



Quote

I never heard anything even in the news about Straight and had no idea it had expanded across the country.

Obviously, some sort of notion inspired you to come here in the first place.  Kinda freaky that all these people find these sites after 20+ years.

Quote
 Now I'm in a position questioning whether what I thought was being helpful was actually causing trauma.  In my heart I still believe people were helped because I know some of those people to this day.  And I do believe I was helped at that particular time in my life.  Had it been a year or two later it seems obvious that things would be completely different.

Straight may have changed your behavior, but at what price?  And who is to say you would not have matured out of your behavior?  I was in Straight from 82-83, so I was there during the Newton Regime, and it most definitely was a Reign of Terror.  However, I think if you are "searching and fearless" enough, you will realize that the methods Straight used were ineffective, inappropriate, and abusive, Newton or no Newton.  Straight did not go from being great before Miller Newton showed up to being shitty when he took control.  He made an abusive situation worse.  He is the Dr. Mengele of the Straight Holocaust, the one where children labeled as "druggies" were somehow transformed into subhuman objects to be abused at the whims of power-crazed sickos, but the nightmare factories were up and running before he showed up.



Quote

I understand your anger and others too.  The things described here are inexcusable and barbaric.  In a lot of ways I wish I never stumbled across this website, but I suppose it was meant to be.  I just need to keep sifting through this website.  

"


Kudos to you for having the balls to post here.  I hold no animosity toward you personally, but I hold lots of it towards people just like you, people who were Staff members.  I reserve the depths of my hatred for Executive Staff, particularly Miller Newton.   I think it's good that you came here, I think you can provide an interesting perspective, but I believe that if you practice "the first and most important rule", you will realize that Straight, Inc. was a fucked-up, weird place that did far more damage than good to the inmates held there.  If you had some sort of problem before Straight, short of killing people randomly in cold blood, going to Straight to be "treated" for it was like cutiing off your hand for having a hangnail.

Again, thanks for posting, and for your courage to post here.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 04, 2005, 08:42:00 PM
Hey John K! It's Margaret D*****
If you are who I think you are then I am blown away!Didn't you used to live off of Beneva Rd.?
I remember I had a mad crush on you.If this is you, email me at ************
I can't believe you remembered that my Mom worked at the bank! What a memory!
Margaret
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: sammiegirl on September 04, 2005, 09:06:00 PM
Wow you took the words right out of my heart. I was in Sarasota and I don't remember a John K on staff.
It is true that we were all very very young when inducted into Straight Inc. Kind of like Kinder Yugen [sp] Were we some sick experiment of the uber class?
Perhaps you could share a momory of some time in group to jog up our memories.

Do you remember Lisa and Melodie? Michelle L What about Mike and Mark C?
Do you remember your intake?
Also welcome Margret D
Hey bob How ya doin?
[ This Message was edited by: sammiegirl on 2005-09-04 18:14 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2005, 09:06:00 AM
I was only on staff in Sarasota.  I don't remember the girls you mention, but I do remember Mike and Mark, but honestly I get them confused.  I was pretty good friends with one after he graduated.  The last I heard from him (20 years ago) he was in San Francisco and had his own landscaping business.  I did see a thread from one of them on this website saying he was in New York now and doing well.

My intake was in St. Pete and was just as intimidating as most without any violence.  I was in total shock so I suppose I was an easy candidate.

I'm trying to recall some memorable moments, but I'm having a hard time except for one.  I remember getting in trouble for leading a guys only rap where we somehow got talking about dating after one graduates from the program.  I had just started dating someone and as a 15 year old I guess I was "in love" so I ?subconsciously? worked that theme into a rap.  It just so happened that Dave Crock, senior/executive staff came in during the rap and sat in the back just leering at me until the end.  Afterwards he took me in a room and proceeded to blast me with his ever so understanding and compassionate style.  I thought I was going to be started over even though I was on junior staff.  I remember trying to explain to him that at some point these guys were going to get back to normal lives and I thought it was something interesting to discuss. Oops.  I specifically remember his eyeballs practically popping out if his head (those of you who knew him know what I mean).  Soon after that I quit.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: sammiegirl on September 05, 2005, 10:26:00 AM
See the pettern.
You were afraid to be started over. For what exactly, you were on staff, leading rap, being STRAIGHT, yet you were afraid.
And your intake was intimidating. At 12 you were intimidated to get in the program. You were in "shock" and an "easy candidate"
These are all thing utulized in the brain washing process. Please look at the Singer Phd thread or rick ross. They are in no way involved w/straight but their studies smack of how we were treated.
All those women mentioned were from sarasota, I hardly remember the men from sarasota. Its like that for most/all of us.
I wish you peave while you start to remember things.
Just out of curiosity, do you have a teen son now? Some friends started looking into straight when their child reached the age of their incarceration. Just a thought
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 05, 2005, 02:57:00 PM
I'd like to ask a question.  I've noticed the responses to my posts are broken down and analyzed quite a bit.  Do you think this process come from the things you were exposed to in Straight or have you had some training or other types of education that taught this?  It reminds me of the techniques instilled in people in Straight.

I wasn't really afraid of being started over, but you're right it was a scare technique that he used as he did to pretty much everyone. However, I was certainly aware that I did not need that type of lecture coming from my boss.  That's when I left to continue on with life.

Also, I did not understand your comment at the end of your post.  Can you clarify what you mean?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on September 07, 2005, 05:30:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-05 11:57:00, Anonymous wrote:
 I've noticed the responses to my posts are broken down and analyzed quite a bit.  Do you think this process come from the things you were exposed to in Straight or have you had some training or other types of education that taught this?


Hyya John

I think your answer is two fold. Yes, breaking down a post/comment is someting learned from Straight. I think the term was "nit-picking".

Secondly, you asked if this behavior comes from other training...In short, no. Whether here in this forum/message board or in other forums such as news groups, shit...even in e-mails it is a way for me to to address certain things a person wrote about.

The i-net, and message boards are difficult, in the sense that the written word may easily be mistaken or mis-interpreted. Also words often can not reflect accurately what it is the person wishes to say. It truely is a difficult medium for communication. We miss facial expressions, sighs, pauses and other forms of human communication that we are familiar with.

I must admit, I am still trying to place your face with your name. It did help that you said you were only on staff in Sarasota...which means we probably sat next to each other in group. Perhaps one day something will click and I will remember you.

I am glad to see your continued efforts and involvement here!

Namaste
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 07, 2005, 08:41:00 PM
Thank you.  I'm still trying to figure things out.  I think the analysis is good, it just reminds me of staff training to some degree.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 14, 2005, 07:06:00 AM
Really?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on September 14, 2005, 09:33:00 AM
Hey John,
  How the hell are ya? This is Virginia* McNulty. I remember you. Short guy, thick black hair, always reminded me of Speed Racer. LOL Can't quite remember your last name. It'll come to me. I won't post it. Don't worry.

Quote
On 2005-08-25 14:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

I don't know what to think. Was I a blind fool or did things go terribly wrong after I moved on? I was young, only 12 when starting and 16 when leaving the staff. What happened?


Well, a little bit of both, I think. Yes, Virgil brought it to a whole new level of warped. It was his big, bright idea to formalize parent and sibling indoctrination events. Probably his idea as well to set up a formal 7th step society.

We never saw much of him in person in Sarasota, at least not that I remember. But Chris Casselor (Castler? Cassler? So many possible spellings) became his li'll protege; Miller Light. Thought he was becoming a professional by virtue of his psyche classes at SPJC. That's when he really started to get dangerous. And, as I remember, that was around `82.

But yeah, the whole thing was pretty fucked up right from the get go. I can well imagine how you could not see it. It worked. You, evidently, bought into the "I was a 12yo junkie" bullshit hook, line and sinker. Of course. What chance has a 12yo got against proven thought reform techniques? Slim to none, that's what.

You must remember driving to and from St. Pete every damned day. Do you remember how much (little) sleep we were all getting? I do. On open meeting nights, we were lucky to get 3 hrs. Normally, we might get 5 or 6. And then, when we'd yawn or nod off in group, they'd stand us up and make all sorts of accusations and bizarre assumptions about it; you're avoiding yourself, you're being disrespectful to the person talking... nnooooooooo, I just haven't had a decent night's sleep in 3 weeks. And, frankly, this routine is getting quite old and boring.

That all by itself is pretty fucked up. Think about it. Intentionally deprive someone of adequate rest and privacy for an extended period of time, then torment and accuse them for being tired. Or how about the routine practice of group tackling anybody who tried to get away? Or the lies and coercion used to get people to sign in in the first place? Do things like that to anybody in the real world and they'll bring charges against you. But things like this become routine and seem to be not wrong after awhile. Especially if you're very young and impressionable (not to mention addle brained from sleep deprivation)

I think the power trippin' skinny broad w/ the tight perm you're trying to remember was Cathy Cone. She had a daughter in the program. And, probably after you went back to the real world, it started to become rather obvious that she had a most inappropriate sort of relationship w/ an inmate. Can't remember his name. Paul, maybe? All I remember about him is that he was certifiably nuts, really in need of professional help and that he ran head first into the wall in the carpet room, missing the stud and leaving a perfectly head-shaped hole in the drywall.  

Anyway, glad you came along. Hope life's been good to you. Look forward to getting your take on things. But take your time. Like most sane people, you seem to have left this extended ep of the Twilight Zone well and properly buried in the past. Personally, I still can't remember a week's worth of actual days in the whole two years.  

* Not really. Virginia never existed except as a legal entity as far as officialdome is concerned and a figment of Straight staff's vivid imagination. Please call me Ginger, like everyone else I've known since I was a toddler.

Faith, as well intentioned as it may be, must be built on facts, not fiction- faith in fiction is a damnable false hope.
--Thomas Edison, American inventor

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on September 14, 2005, 10:53:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-05 11:57:00, Anonymous wrote:

 I'd like to ask a question. I've noticed the responses to my posts are broken down and analyzed quite a bit. Do you think this process come from the things you were exposed to in Straight or have you had some training or other types of education that taught this? It reminds me of the techniques instilled in people in Straight.


Yeah, we're pretty much all assholes.  :rofl:

Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.

--Thomas Hodgskin

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: gregg ritter on September 14, 2005, 08:19:00 PM
I was there from 80-82, when they finally terminated my brother and I.both split 5 or 6 times. I hpope miller hates me as as I hate him...
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 15, 2005, 12:23:00 PM
You were in Sarasota?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 15, 2005, 12:46:00 PM
Hey, Ginger.  I don't recall too many details; however, it is still disturbing to read the some of the details in the posts here.  I think this site is helpful to those still struggling with things.  It confuses me as to why do people continue to punish themselves by putting themselves through these memories every day?  I see what seem to be innocent threads here at the inception turn in to all out rage over and over again.  There are so many positive things in left in life to experience.  Yes, there were some horrendous experiences, no doubt, but why let that rule the rest of your life?  If you do that you "let the bastards win".
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on September 15, 2005, 02:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-15 09:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

 It confuses me as to why do people continue to punish themselves by putting themselves through these memories every day?


See, now THAT reminds ME of some group-relating-program-jargon flavored bullshit.

Punishing ourselves by putting ourselves through these memories? I don't think so, at least not on my part. I fully believed when I split back in `83 that I could walk away and just never think about those crazy bastards again. And it would have worked, too, if they hadn't infiltrated the school system, workplace and public policy w/ DARE and Peer Counseling programs, Save and Drug Free Workplaces/Schools/Communities, militarized Multijurisdictional Counterdrug Taskforce programs, Plan Colombia and all the rest.

The bastards are winning w/o a contest, and largely because they did such a good job training us to suck it up and not complain.

I'm not punishing myself. And I'm not going out of my way to remind myself of this shit. I'll shut up and be happy just as soon as these freaks get the hell out of public policy.

"Narcotics have been systematically scapegoated and demonized. The idea that anyone can use drugs and escape a horrible fate is an anathema to these idiots. I predict that in the near future right-wingers will use drug hysteria as a pretext to set up an international police apparatus."

--William S. Burroughs



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Froderik on September 15, 2005, 02:07:00 PM
Well, I had a simple and concise reply ready to go, but I see now that Ginger has pretty much fielded this one.

Hell, I'll post it anyway:

What's the prob w/ talking about things? Does this always have to mean that people are "continuing to punish themselves"?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 15, 2005, 02:58:00 PM
Maybe that's the difference between you and me.  I didn't have the same experiences as you or as most people on this web page did. I did not take away or harbor the same feelings.  I saw and still see the benefits and negative aspects of my time there.  I do not know if I would or wouldn't be the same person I am today had I not experienced Straight. I feel pretty fortunate to be where I am today. Do I credit Straight for this?  No.  I took what was dealt to me at a very young age and moved on.  If I had experienced what some have here I'm certain I would feel much different.

I do not condone in any way the things that people have described here and I would never place my children in a place like Straight. I just wonder if people are stagnating in the past or dealing with things the best they can in order to enjoy life the best they can.  

If discussing these things over and over again is truly helpful here, I apologize for my question.  I did not mean to offend.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on September 15, 2005, 04:00:00 PM
I think you just don't remember.

The idea of God is the sole wrong for which I cannot forgive mankind.
--Marquis de Sade, French libertine

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: gregg ritter on September 15, 2005, 06:12:00 PM
st pete
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 15, 2005, 08:38:00 PM
Perhaps.  Perhaps I've just moved on.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 15, 2005, 09:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-15 11:58:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Maybe that's the difference between you and me.  I didn't have the same experiences as you or as most people on this web page did. I did not take away or harbor the same feelings.  I saw and still see the benefits and negative aspects of my time there.  I do not know if I would or wouldn't be the same person I am today had I not experienced Straight. I feel pretty fortunate to be where I am today. Do I credit Straight for this?  No.  I took what was dealt to me at a very young age and moved on.  If I had experienced what some have here I'm certain I would feel much different.



I do not condone in any way the things that people have described here and I would never place my children in a place like Straight. I just wonder if people are stagnating in the past or dealing with things the best they can in order to enjoy life the best they can.  



If discussing these things over and over again is truly helpful here, I apologize for my question.  I did not mean to offend.

"

Then waht are you doing on this site and whay are you posting and why not just as you say get on with you life .
See you are doing the same as us only you sre still trying to justify it.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 15, 2005, 09:33:00 PM
I was a participant in this program, willingly or not and apparently I have a different view on things than most here.  I'm just trying to figure things in my mind.  Nonetheless, I mean no disrespect to anyone here.  I just want people to know that there are those who have "graduated? and "not graduated" that are doing OK.  Life goes on.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2005, 03:14:00 PM
I must say that I agree with Anon. Just because someone found this site and posted on it does not mean that they are " in denial" about how they really feel about their own experience in the program. We all each had our OWN experiences there didn't we? And by the way, I thought this post was for the people that were in straight around 1979 or so. Hmmmm... that would make most of us somewhere in our fourties give or take. I don't know about the rest of you but my life has been a whole lot more than just the year I was in straight.Yes it sucked and I hated every day I was there but I have had WAY bigger and more life changing experiences than what happened to me in the program.  Looking back on some of the posts and seeing that there are people who are talking about " getting even" with someone on Sr. staff is in my opinion, just plain sad.

A
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 16, 2005, 03:23:00 PM
Well said.  Thank you.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 18, 2005, 06:09:00 PM
Yes, ditto.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 18, 2005, 07:34:00 PM
I AGREE. Senior staff gets a bad rap around here.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on September 18, 2005, 07:39:00 PM
Yeah, I agree with all of that.

However, not everybody made it out in one piece. This is still going on, sometimes under legal mandate w/ public funding. And the industry is growing. So it's worth a long overdue public dialog, imo.

John, hit me up sometime, please. I'm sure we remember a lot of the same people. I won't name them publicly, though.

Government can do something for the people only in proportion as it can do something to the people
Thomas Jefferson.

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: starry-eyed pirate on September 18, 2005, 09:03:00 PM
when i was in Va i heard a lot of scary things about St. Pete Str8.  i heard newcomers were tied up there and locked in closets.  Any truth to that  ??  i have tried to state my question as plainly and simply as i can.  Peace
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: teachback on September 18, 2005, 10:49:00 PM
Quote
Looking back on some of the posts and seeing that there are people who are talking about "getting even" with someone on Sr. staff is in my opinion, just plain sad.

I agreed with everything that you had to say 100% up until you said this. Nothing wrong with wanting to get even with people...depends on what happened of course...
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Napolean Bonafart on September 19, 2005, 06:09:00 AM
I was there in 1977 and lasted one day. what a hell-hole.

An individual who should survive his physical death is beyond my comprehension, nor do I wish it; such notions are for the fears or absurd egoism of feeble souls.

--Albert Einstein

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 19, 2005, 07:53:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-18 18:03:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:

"when i was in Va i heard a lot of scary things about St. Pete Str8.  i heard newcomers were tied up there and locked in closets.  Any truth to that  ??  


Yes.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 20, 2005, 07:29:00 AM
I never saw anything like that.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 20, 2005, 07:44:00 AM
It happened.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 20, 2005, 09:01:00 AM
To you?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2005, 10:56:00 PM
No, to someone else.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2005, 10:57:00 PM
They look like me though
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2005, 11:00:00 PM
They do??
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2005, 11:01:00 PM
well I was younger then
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2005, 11:02:00 PM
I see.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 21, 2005, 11:03:00 PM
they were younger then too
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 22, 2005, 09:29:00 AM
Is this humorous to you?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 22, 2005, 09:44:00 AM
no, not to me...why?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 11:58:00 AM
Once again, a thread that starts out ok and ends up with crap like this? Somone who looked like you but was younger then?? You are an idiot who obviously has a little to much time on your hands. Someone asks a serious question and you think it will be fun to jerk them around a bit... How utterly creative.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 01:34:00 PM
It posts like that that make people doubt if some of the things really happened.  Thanks, anon.  Were you ever tied and locked in a closet in Sarasota?  I think not.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 01:35:00 PM
I was in St. Petersburg, and I know it happened there, on more than one occasion
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 01:53:00 PM
If you took the time to actually read what I wrote I said...someone asks a serious question.Were you reading the responding posts?? Sure didn't sound like a serious response to me. Like I said.. someone thinkiong they are being funny. In no way did I say that being locked in a closet never happened. Maybe you should take the time to THINK before you just spew your nonsense.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 01:55:00 PM
i think he answered your your question, lighten up. he was bearing witness to your statement despite the sillyness occurring before in this thread.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on September 23, 2005, 03:22:00 PM
John Kitweiller is the only John K. that I can think of.  He was a good guy.  What I remember most was the way he would get the dehydrated Cotton Mouth Fibers in the corners of his mouth when he related while on his phases.  He had good insight and probably suffered less damage than most of us.
Valerie Davis, anyone remember her?  Her whole program was nothing but one great struggle to gain acceptance.  How messed up does someone have to be to not be able to gain acceptance in a place like Straight after jumping through all the hoops?  She seven stepped then crashed and burned along with with that weird Victor La-whatever kid.

Troy Wheeler was another.  His sister pulled herself and left him hanging and Staff just played with his dad like a demented kid pulling the wings off of a fly.  He was finally pulled after about 6 weeks of serious mind fucking.  He now lives in New York and is a purchasing agent for Sears.  I met his two kids (boy and girl) while working for the YMCA back in '99.  He has lots of anger and alcohol issues.

Tammy Jordan.  She could actually cry tears that were the size of manhole covers once they hit the ground.  She 'stepped in Oct of '79 then took off like a bat out of hell.  Her yearbook picture from St. Pete High class of '81 is truly haunting.

Whah hell, kids, it's been fun, but I gotta get across town so I can get to work on time. Stay Tuned...........Bob in St. Pete
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 06:23:00 PM
Wow. How can you remember things in that much detail?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 07:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-23 15:23:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Wow. How can you remember things in that much detail?"


He remembers Straight as the best time in his life, or the most meaningful, and he has had no life since then.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: starry-eyed pirate on September 23, 2005, 08:45:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-19 04:53:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-18 18:03:00, starry-eyed pirate wrote:


"when i was in Va i heard a lot of scary things about St. Pete Str8.  i heard newcomers were tied up there and locked in closets.  Any truth to that  ??  



Yes."


If ya don' mind anon., i would be interested in hearing more about this.  How did it go down ??  Who was involved ?? As in staff or phasers or Host parents ??  At the building or at host-homes ?? or both ??  For how long ??  etc., etc.

i am interested in knowing all i can. Peace.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 08:47:00 PM
I remember it happening on more than one occasion, but not nearly as often as kids being sat on or other Straight abuse techniques.  At least once it was after a kid had copped out and they were bringing them back to group the next day.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: starry-eyed pirate on September 23, 2005, 08:50:00 PM
So they kept the cat tied up in a closet at a host home all night ??  How do you know about this ??  How many times did somethin' like this happen ??
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 23, 2005, 08:51:00 PM
At least twice, that I can recall.  Like I said, it wasn't a regular abuse technique, I think they kind of saved it for special occasions.  Nowhere near as frequent as sitting on kids, or PBJ diets, or marathoning.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: starry-eyed pirate on September 23, 2005, 08:57:00 PM
Some fucked up shit happened to me too while i was a prisoner at str8.  That is some fucked up shit though, alright.  Damn!! Fuck those fucked up mutherfuckkers.  i can imagine how that would feel.  

Fuck Str8.  Fuck all authority.

 :skull:  :skull:  :skull:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Dr Fucktard on September 23, 2005, 09:46:00 PM
Locked in a closet? Pfffff...

At SIBS, if you fuck around you'll wind up in the gorilla cage....

Pirate, you had better get used to sayin' "Hi-i-i Daddy" (like High-Pitched Eric) because that's what Gary the Gorilla likes to hear..

Be sure to pack some vaseline; if you don't struggle too much while they're throwing you in there maybe they'll let you use some of it... :lol:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on September 23, 2005, 10:30:00 PM
Did Troy have light brown hair, rather dark (for a white boy) skin, braces and rather a shy personaility so long as you didn't piss him off?

It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.

--Antigen

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 01:41:00 PM
Who is Troy?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 01:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-24 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Who is Troy?"


You know, he's that guy.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 08:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-09-24 10:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-09-24 10:41:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Who is Troy?"




You know, he's that guy."


Wrong, that guy wasn't in St. Pete.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 08:57:00 PM
Shut up -- I know for a fact that he was.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 09:34:00 PM
I know for a fact that he wasn't.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 09:41:00 PM
Well that leaves us at an impasse then, doesn't it?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 09:50:00 PM
I maintain my correctness.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 24, 2005, 11:57:00 PM
And I mine.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2005, 12:00:00 AM
Thou art incorrect.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2005, 12:03:00 AM
It goes without saying that you are entitled to your opinion, so I won't say it even though i just did. However, you are mistaken about my incorrectness. He was there.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2005, 12:48:00 AM
Who was?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2005, 12:59:00 AM
that guy.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2005, 01:02:00 AM
Which guy?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2005, 01:03:00 AM
the guy being discussed in this thread.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 25, 2005, 08:36:00 AM
ahhhh...more nonsense.It just keeps getting better.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on September 25, 2005, 09:03:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-09-23 19:30:00, Antigen wrote:

"Did Troy have light brown hair, rather dark (for a white boy) skin, braces and rather a shy personaility so long as you didn't piss him off?

It only takes a little prescience to understand that we're all fair game for the deeds we condone.

--Antigen


"

Troy was my newcomer. He had dark skin, and almost black hair as I recall. He almost looked native american. His sister Joy, was just the opposite, very white (pale) and very blonde, if not platnum blonde...I knew her in my past, b4 Straight, and yes he was most def in St. Pete

I also remeber Valerie, yes, she struggled big time. She went to same school I did and had the same difficulty there. I re=mber once in some type of "variety show" she sang the song "I felt the earth move under my feet"....She was stood up and raked over the coals. Ms Pete was in attendence for that one and was main reason that she was stood up. Apparently the song had something to do with getting laid (who knew).

Tammy's name rings a loud bell also, I redmber what Bob mentioned about her crying an awfull lot.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on September 25, 2005, 12:43:00 PM
Ok, thanks. For a minute there, I thought it might be one of my classmates from Ft. Lauderdale. A couple of years ago, I looked up some of my old school friends. Found out my mom had had at least two of them shipped off and one of their fathers became a big-time toughlove evangelist too.

But this has got to be a different Troy.

Men had better be without education than be educated by their rulers.
--Thomas Hodgskin, 1823



_________________
Ginger Warbis ~ Antigen
Drug war POW
Seed Chicklett `71 - `80
Straight, Sarasota
   10/80 - 10/82
Apostate 10/82 -
Anonymity Anonymous
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 26, 2005, 08:37:00 AM
There was a Trey in Sarasota or maybe a transfer from St.Pete to Sarasota.  He was tall with the features you described.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 26, 2005, 01:47:00 PM
I think he used to hang around with a staff memebr named Pete.  They were workout buds.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 26, 2005, 05:47:00 PM
I remember that Pete guy.  I thought he was good friends with Richard Knowles another Sarasota staff member.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 27, 2005, 10:56:00 AM
Anyone remember a girl named Dallas N.? She was in St.Pete
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 28, 2005, 09:49:00 AM
Did she go to Sarasota?  There was also a staff member named Russ something.  Seemed like a OK guy.  I think he got fed up witht he way things were going.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 28, 2005, 10:24:00 AM
Dallas may have gone to Sarasota, but I'm not sure. I was out of the program by the time they opened a branch in Sarasota. I remember Russ too. Also remember he didn't stick around long.Was Pete the tall guy with dark hair? So many people from so long ago...wonder what has happened to them all.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 28, 2005, 10:25:00 AM
Yes, Pete had dark hair.  Kind of the comedian type; always trying to be funny.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 29, 2005, 08:06:00 AM
During this time I?ve been reading through this website some memories have come back.  I wanted to share a story, if I may.  This one in particular is more light-hearted than most, but shows how someone could use the ?knowledge? that we were force-fed to beat the system itself.

I went through the intake process, uneventful as far as some described here, but I went through nonetheless.  As the intake progressed I got the feeling that I may be searched at some point.  I happened to have a stash and an old wood pipe in my pocket (you see I thought I'd be going to the beach afterwards so I came prepared).  At some point, I don't remember if I was left alone or if everyone was distracted, but I was able to get the stash and pipe out of my pocket and into the couch crease behind me without anyone noticing.  Big deal, right?

Well, fast forward.  I proceeded through the program and made it to fifth phase and after an open meeting one night my newcomer and I were told to wait in the intake rooms until it was time to leave.  It was the same intake room where I was "interviewed".  Of course my curiosity got the best of me.  I had to check the couch never expecting that my stash would still be there.....but it was!  So, I had a dilemma.  Should I tell that it was mine from a year prior?  If I did that I would certainly be ?honest?, but certainly be started over as well.  My rational side took over, so I lied.  I told staff that when I sat down I noticed a lump in the couch and this is what I found.  I was praised and not long after that I graduated.  But the kicker is that I was invited to join staff as well.  I did and went to junior staff, but left by the time I was 16 as I?ve said before.

This is an entirely true story.  I hadn?t thought about this in 20 years.  Had I been caught I would have been started over or at least demoted and more than likely experienced some of the awful things that I have read here.  I was a lucky liar or maybe just ?conning my way through?.
 ::nod::
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 29, 2005, 09:20:00 AM
Thanks for the story. :grin:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on September 30, 2005, 09:16:00 AM
Lucky liar or just conning your way through?
Maybe a little of both, Since honesty was NEVER what they really wanted out of us, you simply learned to give them what they wanted. Can you imagine what would have happened if you had told the truth and they realized that you had been "withholding" that bit of information all those months??? Sounds like you simply learned to play by their rules. I remember the exact day when I finally "got" the fact that if I didn't start to say and do what was expected, that I would be there forever. For me, my time in the program showed me that I could survive just about anything,because not only did I survive it, I think I actually came out of it a much stronger person. No matter what was said or done to me  the year I was there, I NEVER lost who I was inside.Lucky liar or conning my way through? Maybe a little bit of both.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on October 10, 2005, 06:48:00 PM
Russ Tewksbury? Dallas Noe? Trey Titus? I knew em all.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2005, 09:16:00 AM
Seamus, do you  know whatever happened to Dallas? I kept in touch with her for a while after the program. We went to the Prew Academy together in Sarasota for a while and then lost touch. The last time I saw her was at Siesta Key Beach and she was trippin on mushrooms...

Woof a Doof, you seem to have an amazing ability to remember people and events as if it was yesterday. Remember the redheaded bitch  on staff named Wanda? Do you know whatever became of her?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2005, 11:36:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-10-10 15:48:00, seamus wrote:

"Russ Tewksbury? Dallas Noe? Trey Titus? I knew em all.
"


Any word on how they're doing?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2005, 11:37:00 AM
I stay in touch some with Russ.  My parents meet with Russ's,Trey Titus and Dave Key's parents once in awhile for dinner.   I think Trey still believes straight saved his life and when I spoke with Russ, he just wants to forget about it all.  Can't really blame him.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2005, 12:20:00 PM
hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 11, 2005, 01:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-10-11 08:37:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I stay in touch some with Russ.  My parents meet with Russ's,Trey Titus and Dave Key's parents once in awhile for dinner.   I think Trey still believes straight saved his life and when I spoke with Russ, he just wants to forget about it all.  Can't really blame him.

"


Thanks.  It's nice to hear people are doing well at this website for a change.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on October 13, 2005, 06:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-10-11 06:16:00, Anonymous wrote:


Woof a Doof, you seem to have an amazing ability to remember people and events as if it was yesterday. Remember the redheaded bitch  on staff named Wanda? Do you know whatever became of her?"


I remember Wanda Mitton (I think that was the last name) yes...another terror. No, I do not know what became of her. Perhaps 85DJ does. She was one I personally could not stand. Although I had no direct conflicts with her, I recall watching her work the girls side and thinking, god damn what a witch.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 07:05:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-10-11 10:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-10-11 08:37:00, Anonymous wrote:


"I stay in touch some with Russ.  My parents meet with Russ's,Trey Titus and Dave Key's parents once in awhile for dinner.   I think Trey still believes straight saved his life and when I spoke with Russ, he just wants to forget about it all.  Can't really blame him.


"




I didn't say they were doing well.  I said my parents see their parents once in a while.  I think Russ is estranged from his parents, and  
Trey still lives at home.  I guess in your opinion, since they aren't dead, then they are doing well.

Thanks.  It's nice to hear people are doing well at this website for a change."
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 07:06:00 AM
and obviously, I am not doing too well at the "quote" thing on the site.  Geeezzz
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 07:11:00 AM
Sorry.  I just thought since there were no negative details that they were doing well.  Is it a crime for someone to actually be doing well, being happy in their lives and dealing with what has happened in the past?  Geeez is right!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: flygirl on October 13, 2005, 09:45:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: flygirl on 2006-04-26 06:22 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 10:03:00 AM
Could it be Elizabeth Hamilton?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: flygirl on October 13, 2005, 10:17:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: flygirl on 2006-04-26 06:23 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 10:29:00 AM
If she did stay on staff it was only for a short time.  I have no idea where she is now.  How was she as a staff member?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 10:43:00 AM
Other names?:
-Robin Eichenblat (sp?)
-Craig ? (short jewish boy)
-Tim and Mike Bales (their mother was the biggest flirt)
- Paul Antolik
- Bruce Birchmore
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: flygirl on October 13, 2005, 10:52:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: flygirl on 2006-04-26 06:23 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: flygirl on October 13, 2005, 10:59:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: flygirl on 2006-04-26 06:23 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 11:12:00 AM
Tammy Schmeck?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 01:29:00 PM
How about the two identical twin girls? Anyone remember them? One of them was Gretchen I think.
I'll never forget the opening meeting where their parents stood up and told them how when the girls friends found out that they were in the program they tried to burn the parents house down. I remember someone in group laughed...boy did that make for an interesting post open meeting rap up!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 13, 2005, 02:53:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-10-13 10:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"How about the two identical twin girls? Anyone remember them? One of them was Gretchen I think.

I'll never forget the opening meeting where their parents stood up and told them how when the girls friends found out that they were in the program they tried to burn the parents house down. I remember someone in group laughed...boy did that make for an interesting post open meeting rap up!"


Don't remember them.  Those other names sound familiar but can't picture them.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: judy on October 13, 2005, 05:40:00 PM
I don't know the name of the building but I think It was a furniture warehouse. They would "run" people up and down the side of the building. I was Judy Carey then, my sister is Lori. We were both "lifers". Is there anyone from that era?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on October 13, 2005, 07:38:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-10-13 06:45:00, flygirl wrote:

"Woof-A-Doof,

How the hell do remember so much? Do you have something written down or is it all just in your head?? I remembered Wanda but until you said her last name I would have never remembered that!Do you remember a staff member by the name of Liz, braces and from Sarasota? Always looked like she was frowning?"


Liz Cassidy...

No, nothing written down and it was very early this morning before work, shit,probably before coffee. So, it just kinda came out. My memory is good but painfully short at times.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 14, 2005, 09:22:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-10-13 16:38:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-10-13 06:45:00, flygirl wrote:


"Woof-A-Doof,


How the hell do remember so much? Do you have something written down or is it all just in your head?? I remembered Wanda but until you said her last name I would have never remembered that!Do you remember a staff member by the name of Liz, braces and from Sarasota? Always looked like she was frowning?"




Liz Cassidy...



No, nothing written down and it was very early this morning before work, shit,probably before coffee. So, it just kinda came out. My memory is good but painfully short at times."


Wasn't she on staff in St. Pete?  Kinda fat with a strong New York/Jersey accent?  Did she have a brother too?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on October 15, 2005, 04:40:00 PM
Never saw dallas noe post program saw elizabeth hamilton in the gingerbread man once when i was playing there,she was with some guy,i didnt bother her .saw god fosaken chris cassler at an al dimeola concert at bay front once . I all ways thought leean & sherry hughes were nice.Saw suzanne lawson at medeval fair in 83 or so. I got the fuck out of sarasota in 84,moved to vegas,then nashville,then new orleans,daytona,miami,and currently live outside chicago.I fostered at woof a doofs once. I knew Chuck Cannon both pre,and post program.Jerry Swistek,ann crampton,a lot of sarasota people.the heaths,etc..[ This Message was edited by: seamus on 2005-10-15 13:50 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on October 15, 2005, 05:21:00 PM
Quote
Wasn't she on staff in St. Pete?  Kinda fat with a strong New York/Jersey accent?  Did she have a brother too?"


Yes, far as I know Liz Cassidy made it to Senior Staff, and her brother name was Jimmy.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on October 15, 2005, 05:25:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-10-15 13:40:00, seamus wrote:

I fostered at woof a doofs once. I knew Chuck Cannon both pre,and post program.


Ya stayed at my house? How was it? Gimme a private message if ya want! Chuck was a roommate with 85DJ and I post straight...what a character!!! Any word from him???
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 17, 2005, 07:16:00 AM
Anyone remember Winston Pittman?  He studied to be a marine biologist, I believe, and worked at Mote Marine in Sarasota.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 17, 2005, 08:43:00 AM
Yes, I remember Winston.  Don't know if he got a degree in biology or not.  we kind of lost touch with each other in the early 80's.  I had started drinking beer and he didn't seem to want to have much to do with me then.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on October 17, 2005, 06:51:00 PM
Hello Seamus, you sound like either Dan Gooden, Big Scott Patterson, Tim Hurter, or else you are one of the almost 12 people I totally forgot about.  I went tooling down to Naples one weekend with Chuck Cannon in that white Ford Maverick that he had.  He purposely got out at a speed bump, poured half a bottle of motor oil all over his rear tire, then got in and lit that fucker up!!!  He did all this right in plain view of a Sarasota Police Cruiser, got a ticket and everything for it, then kept it on his visor like some sort of souvenier of the road trip.  He was really unpredictible in ways like that.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 18, 2005, 07:25:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-10-17 15:51:00, 85 Day Jerk wrote:

"Hello Seamus, you sound like either Dan Gooden, Big Scott Patterson, Tim Hurter, or else you are one of the almost 12 people I totally forgot about.  I went tooling down to Naples one weekend with Chuck Cannon in that white Ford Maverick that he had.  He purposely got out at a speed bump, poured half a bottle of motor oil all over his rear tire, then got in and lit that fucker up!!!  He did all this right in plain view of a Sarasota Police Cruiser, got a ticket and everything for it, then kept it on his visor like some sort of souvenier of the road trip.  He was really unpredictible in ways like that."


WOW!  Sounds like a real winner!  Pass the Skoal and the Pabst!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: keifer on October 18, 2005, 05:57:00 PM
Hi anonynmous
I'm keifer.

I'm not sure what your question is, but I  graduated from Lakewood in 1977.

I was not in the Seed or Straight and was among the kids that really disliked such program and what they did to my friends.

 Most of my friends got sucked into the SEED in the mid seventies, so I'm not much of a Staight Freak, so so speak. though I feel that program has had more of an impact just because of its sheer size.


Good luck.
Keifer
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on October 19, 2005, 05:18:00 PM
Quote

On 2005-09-28 07:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Yes, Pete had dark hair.  Kind of the comedian type; always trying to be funny."
[/                       quote]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on October 19, 2005, 05:29:00 PM
im not those folks but ,damn i knew em.I tried to think of more sarasota folks,hmmm...ok carolyn moser,cindy thierry,her brother dave,john {was it kitwieler?] yeah tim hirter,big brett patterson ,greg koch,his sister,a whole shit load of pull offs.Jeff Sparks,Larry Wagle,Bob fucking Groter.Etc......
Some other girl named caroline too.
_________________
and i   say to myself,what a wonderful world.[ This Message was edited by: seamus on 2005-10-19 14:31 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 19, 2005, 07:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-10-19 14:29:00, seamus wrote:

"im not those folks but ,damn i knew em.I tried to think of more sarasota folks,hmmm...ok carolyn moser,cindy thierry,her brother dave,john {was it kitwieler?] yeah tim hirter,big brett patterson ,greg koch,his sister,a whole shit load of pull offs.Jeff Sparks,Larry Wagle,Bob fucking Groter.Etc......

Some other girl named caroline too.

_________________

and i   say to myself,what a wonderful world.[ This Message was edited by: seamus on 2005-10-19 14:31 ]"

Wow.  I had completely forgotten those names.  I was decent friends with Dave Thierry for a while.  He went to Emory College in Georgia; I think to be a doctor.  His sister was strange but nice enough.  Good memory, once again.  I wonder who you are.  I probably know you or knew you anyway.  Either way, I hope all is well for you and those you've mentioned.

I have one question that I am afraid to have confirmed that I'd like to ask you.  Did Anne Crampton, if you knew her, really commit suicide?  I knew her well and her parents as well back then.  What a shame if it's true.  I thought she was very nice and just trying to do things the right way (whatever that is).



 :???:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 21, 2005, 10:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-10-19 16:03:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-10-19 14:29:00, seamus wrote:


"im not those folks but ,damn i knew em.I tried to think of more sarasota folks,hmmm...ok carolyn moser,cindy thierry,her brother dave,john {was it kitwieler?] yeah tim hirter,big brett patterson ,greg koch,his sister,a whole shit load of pull offs.Jeff Sparks,Larry Wagle,Bob fucking Groter.Etc......


Some other girl named caroline too.


_________________


and i   say to myself,what a wonderful world.[ This Message was edited by: seamus on 2005-10-19 14:31 ]"


Wow.  I had completely forgotten those names.  I was decent friends with Dave Thierry for a while.  He went to Emory College in Georgia; I think to be a doctor.  His sister was strange but nice enough.  Good memory, once again.  I wonder who you are.  I probably know you or knew you anyway.  Either way, I hope all is well for you and those you've mentioned.



I have one question that I am afraid to have confirmed that I'd like to ask you.  Did Anne Crampton, if you knew her, really commit suicide?  I knew her well and her parents as well back then.  What a shame if it's true.  I thought she was very nice and just trying to do things the right way (whatever that is).







 :???: "


Can anyone confirm this?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 24, 2005, 07:05:00 AM
I thought I saw on ths website somwehere.  Can anyone help?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 24, 2005, 12:20:00 PM
I heard that she did kill herself.  Did'nt read the obit, but thta is what I heard.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on October 25, 2005, 04:40:00 PM
so I heard.Don't know it to be fact though.I allways thought this forum should have an R.I.P.list or something but don't know how to keep it at least factual.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on October 26, 2005, 10:43:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-10-25 13:40:00, seamus wrote:

"so I heard.Don't know it to be fact though.I allways thought this forum should have an R.I.P.list or something but don't know how to keep it at least factual.
"


Did you know her?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on October 26, 2005, 03:45:00 PM
yep,not real well and only briefly.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on November 24, 2005, 06:05:00 PM
Is anyone still monitoring this link?
I was put in the program in 76. I was the 30th person in the program.
I used to smoke pot with Chris Cassler before he went into the program.
My name is Bryan I have a brother named Perry.
If you read this and remember me please contact me at...
[email protected]
I would like to hear from you.
Thanks
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 25, 2005, 09:00:00 AM
I was in st pete 78 -80.  Hope you are doing well.  Cassler is a fucker
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on November 25, 2005, 09:11:00 AM
I'm not doing too bad. I do have trouble connecting with people though.
I'm trying to remember what happened there so that i can possibly figure out how to combat the effects that are still lingering.
Thank you for replying to the post.
Chris was a real wuss back in the day. He didn't really have any friends and could be a really whinny baby. I guess he found some place that gave him some power and it worked for him.
I hope more people find this message.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on November 25, 2005, 11:58:00 AM
Oh my, I sure remember Chris Cassler. I bet by the time I met him his "druggie past" stories had grown more than a 10yo fish tale. Let's see, I remember something about his friends calling themselves the River Rats and aspiring to be great and legendary junkies. Never did quite fit w/ that li'll detail about his dad having been a very successful commercial artist. I bet he was 100%, completely full of unadulterated shit.

Have you considered that system of holy lies and pious frauds that has raged and triumphed for 1500 years.
--John Adams, U.S. President

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on November 25, 2005, 08:43:00 PM
I couldn't figure out why he and his younger brother lived at his grandmothers house.
As far as any river rat was concerned I'm sure that was all in his head!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on November 25, 2005, 09:48:00 PM
I dunno. Maybe his parents really did suck. It used to be almost customary for the kids to go to the grandparents or a married aunt or uncle in case of divorce. Different times, ya' know.

In case the dude comes along here after googling his name, I don't really harbour any ill will toward him. I figure he's probably completely different now, like most of us. But then, I wouldn't be shocked and devistated if he turned out to be another John Underwood. He reminded me of John back then, too.

As a rule, children love their parents, believe what they teach, and take great pride in saying that the religion of mother is good enough for them.
--Robert G. Ingersoll, American politician and lecturer

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: fedelta_a_verita on November 28, 2005, 04:19:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: fedelta_a_verita on 2006-01-03 07:36 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: kpickle39 on November 28, 2005, 04:35:00 PM
uh, no...wasn't Mike Sherman.  I didn't enter until Dec 1978.  And, no I wasn't married at the time.  Never was on staff. AND, I really do not appreciate the comment about my wife.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: kpickle39 on November 28, 2005, 05:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-28 13:35:00, kpickle39 wrote:

"uh, no...wasn't Mike Sherman.  I didn't enter until Dec 1978.  And, no I wasn't married at the time.  Never was on staff. AND, I really do not appreciate the comment about my wife.  "


and she wasn't on staff either. . . she wasn't ever in straight.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on November 28, 2005, 07:19:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-11-28 13:19:00, fedelta_a_verita wrote:

"I served time in straight inc as one of the original inmates. I started out with less than one hundred other detainees in late 76 in the ?train station? building around 43 st and 8 ave south in St. Pete later moving out to the Morgan Yacht warehouse.


01/28/78 was my intake, and that was at the Milton Roy building. Apparently the 'group' had just moved from the "rayhall" building across the way. 85DJ (who has a pretty accurate memory) has written about the details of that move and what prompted it. I don't recall ever hearing about the 'group' being in a "train station" type building. I checked the address given on Google Earth and could not find the building in question.

Quote

Knew various pieces of rat filth graduates of the Seed serving as Straight guards ? Mike something or other, might have been Sherman might not have been can?t recall for sure -  his scum bag wife worked there with him, and some guy named Ron, and others I can?t recall right off hand


I recall a few Seedlings as staff. One guy had reddish hair from Sarasota. If I remember correctly he was fired for smoking pot. I remember Mike or Michael, he had brown kinky hair and did some major pacing while leading a group. His wife's name was Amy, she was a big amazon kinda female with blonde hair. And who could forget Dave Crock and his wife Cynthia.

Could not have been Mike Sherman, he came in well after I did.

Ya said there was no physical abuse at the time you were incarcerated in Straight...Where you ever "run"? This was a real big thing upon my incarceration...it was being phased out but happened a few times.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on November 28, 2005, 08:06:00 PM
Been pretty busy lately, here's my two cents;  the "Train Station Building" is the old Morgan Yacht Sailcloth building.  The building is'nt even there anymore.  The closest thing to it is National Linen, near the Pinellas Trail.  This sometimes causes confusion between it, and the Morgan Yacht Building that alot of us finished up in.  I remember Liz Hamilton pretty good.  She gave me a ride home from St. Pete Vo Tech once around Sept of 1980.  She had the coolest car, a 1972 Monte Carlo SS.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 28, 2005, 09:12:00 PM
Didn't that thing have a limited-slip differential, or was that a later year?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: fedelta_a_verita on November 28, 2005, 09:13:00 PM
[ This Message was edited by: fedelta_a_verita on 2006-01-03 07:41 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 28, 2005, 09:32:00 PM
Straight got two startup grants from the Law Enforcement Assistance Agency in 1976 and 1977 of $50K each.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 29, 2005, 10:24:00 AM
Anyone remember a guy named Vincent (Vinny) who went off to join the marines?  I remeber him a being the darling of the group at the time.  He seemed to be a very nice guy and would retun to the group from time to time.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 29, 2005, 12:02:00 PM
He was a typical program marine type.  Went from one cult into another...straight inc, to the US Marine Corp.  He was a jerk that used to come and exercise the crap out of us phasers.  I remember kids dropping when he would try and do his "marine corp" boot camp thing to us.   What a turd he was.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 30, 2005, 08:51:00 AM
I remember Vinny also. What I remember the most is how Ms. Pete would parade him around the group showing us all what a true straightling was. I don't remember him being a jerk but he never led any exercises for the girls side either. He used to tell us that we could do it and to stick to " our programs".I just remember thinking, why would you ever want to come back here?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on November 30, 2005, 09:05:00 AM
Vinny, I think by his own nature was very enthusiastic and gun-ho by default. I also recall him being paraded around as the wonder boy, I guess to be an example for us all to follow. I remember thinking that I could never be like that...even with my best acting that I could never be as motavated as he was.

I remember him leading the exercise as well. Mostly what I remember is being in push-up position for fucking ever and watching the puddle of sweat extend well past my own hands and into a puddle of sweat from some other for soul...shit, it wasn't that bad in boot camp before I went into submarine corp!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 30, 2005, 01:36:00 PM
I usually lurk here, but I know Vinny, and I feel I have to say in his defense that he is really a good guy now. You have to understand he had it real rough before Straight. Well he spent his twenties rip-roaring around, sure, but he had a turn-about in his thirties, got his act together, and now he's the kind of guy who spends his weekends volunteer coaching for the rec center. He has a good way with the kids, he has a good job, IT-something I think now, he's married and has two boys of his own. He never talked much about Straight to me, although I know he took a couple of the suicides pretty hard.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on November 30, 2005, 09:24:00 PM
It was mike shanahan...and the building was the milton roy building and yes it did look like a train station. There was also a female staff member named marcy who got caught up in a lesbian ruomr. Also a female staffer named robin. There was Tom Vida who later ended up in a psych ward. Someone named ron and his wife debbie.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on November 30, 2005, 09:31:00 PM
does anyone remember kieth segal, donna and dianne munch, mike greenbaulm? kenny and marnie sykes?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on December 01, 2005, 12:11:00 AM
Marnie I remember. She was Sr. staff in Sarasota w/ her side-kick, Cheryl. The always reminded me of Daphne and Velma.

I don't believe in God. My god is patriotism. Teach a man to be a good citizen and you have solved the problem of life.
--Andrew Carnegie, Scottish-born American industrialist and philanthropist

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: fedelta_a_verita on December 01, 2005, 08:20:00 AM
[ This Message was edited by: fedelta_a_verita on 2006-01-03 07:34 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2005, 02:08:00 PM
Anyone remember Jim Kebweller(?), Mike Taige, Bruce Berchmoore?  These were the only names I sort of clearly remember.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on December 01, 2005, 06:49:00 PM
Is anyone interested in getting together somewhere and saying hi in person?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on December 01, 2005, 06:56:00 PM
Kenny commited suicide shortly after returning to straight upon going awol. Actually overdosed.
Keith graduated the program shortly before me.
I wish I knew what happedned to the rest of the people I knew.
I'd like to know if Tom survived.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2005, 07:54:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-01 15:49:00, lonebikerdude1 wrote:

"Is anyone interested in getting together somewhere and saying hi in person?"


Sounds good.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2005, 08:01:00 PM
So, what kinda bike ya got, lonebikerdude1? And, are there any other lonebikerdudes, like 2 & 3, or is it just you? I guess if there were more you wouldn't be lonebikerdudes anymore. Nevermind.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on December 01, 2005, 09:15:00 PM
I ride a GT ZR1000 that I custom built. It weighs in at around 17 pounds. Built with aluminum titanium and carbon fiber
Also a Bianchi Alfana that I built into a time trials bike.
I had to go with lonebikerdude1 because lonebikerdude was already taken.
Do you cycle or did you think it was motorcycling?[ This Message was edited by: lonebikerdude1 on 2005-12-01 18:15 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2005, 11:59:00 AM
Dave Crock wore glasses and had a receding hairline .Lt.brown hair and he had funny looking lips. Like he had been sucking something. His wife was a real bitch.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2005, 12:05:00 PM
when and where
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2005, 12:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-01 18:15:00, lonebikerdude1 wrote:

"I ride a GT ZR1000 that I custom built. It weighs in at around 17 pounds. Built with aluminum titanium and carbon fiber

Also a Bianchi Alfana that I built into a time trials bike.

I had to go with lonebikerdude1 because lonebikerdude was already taken.

Do you cycle or did you think it was motorcycling?[ This Message was edited by: lonebikerdude1 on 2005-12-01 18:15 ]"


I did, I thought it was a motorcycle thing! I was surprised when you said it was 17 pounds. :smile:  nah, I don't ride, I'd get killed out there the way the roads are. Do you live in a bike-friendly town?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on December 02, 2005, 01:31:00 PM
not really,
Ihave to drive out to one of the local trails.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2005, 01:40:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-01 11:08:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Anyone remember Jim Kebweller(?), Mike Taige, Bruce Berchmoore?  These were the only names I sort of clearly remember."


Names sound familar, but It's hard to remmeber faces.  Do remember Dave Crock...what an asshole.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2005, 01:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-02 10:31:00, lonebikerdude1 wrote:

"not really,

Ihave to drive out to one of the local trails."


oh like a rails-to-trails thing? those are cool.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2005, 02:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-02 10:55:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2005-12-02 10:31:00, lonebikerdude1 wrote:


"not really,


Ihave to drive out to one of the local trails."




oh like a rails-to-trails thing? those are cool."


Why don't you guys start another thread?  There are those here who would like responses to this topic.  Thanks.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on December 02, 2005, 04:27:00 PM
I'm hanging out waiting for someone else to respond to this thread.
For the most part it seems like the only activity there is on this forum.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2005, 06:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2005-12-02 13:27:00, lonebikerdude1 wrote:

"I'm hanging out waiting for someone else to respond to this thread.

For the most part it seems like the only activity there is on this forum."


OK.  That's cool.  So ytou were in around 76-78.  I "graduated" in May of '78.  Your name sounds familiar but as I said in a previuos post I cannot place faces.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on December 03, 2005, 08:17:00 AM
What was your name ?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 08:20:00 AM
puddin tane, ask me again and I'll tell you the same.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2005, 09:31:00 AM
Happy Saturday lonebikerdude! ::rainbow::
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2005, 10:18:00 AM
Quote
On 2005-12-03 05:17:00, lonebikerdude1 wrote:

"What was your name ?"


I'd rather not say.  Sorry.

I lived in Sarasota and was placed in the program in St. Pete.  I was through the program in 14 months.  Unlike most here, I think it actually helped me.  I did not experience some of the things mentioned here for which I am grateful.  While not my idea of utopia, my short time there may have saved many other years of other types of incarceration.  These statements will not sit well with the others here, but IMO they are the truth.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: lonebikerdude1 on December 05, 2005, 04:30:00 PM
No Problem.
I can't fault anyone for speaking whats in their heart.
I'm sure the program helped more than anyone will ever speak of.
Never the less we will all still be connected for ever through our experience.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 25, 2006, 08:26:00 AM
Any thoughts on this thread from the latest round of bickerers?  Lots of differing view points are displayed here that seem to summarize how people can have different opinions about Straight and still be respectful.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 27, 2006, 08:31:00 AM
It musty be too level-headed of a discussion for the likes of those who spam up things around here.  I hope there is more discussions like these.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 30, 2006, 03:48:00 PM
Hi This Is Marnie Sykes - I was looking at a few of your posts - who are you? - Kenny did not commit Suicide - He died in a auto accident in 88

I am sending this and am not sure if you will get it - let's try
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 30, 2006, 04:11:00 PM
Hi there Bob Patterson - Thanks again for the stuff you brought me - How are u?


Marnie
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: kpickle39 on March 30, 2006, 05:10:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-30 12:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Hi This Is Marnie Sykes - I was looking at a few of your posts - who are you? - Kenny did not commit Suicide - He died in a auto accident in 88



I am sending this and am not sure if you will get it - let's try"


Hi ya Marnie...kpickle says hello. Good to see you post again.  Hope life is treating you ok.  Mike Sherman is kpickle if you didn't know that.

 :grin:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 30, 2006, 05:19:00 PM
Hey Mike - yes it has been a while - I needed to kind of back off for a while with the communication - but I have still been coming to this site to read all the posts and keep up to date - Hope you are well - it is fun to read about everyone and see how everyone is doing. -

Sometimes remembering Straight St. Pete
seems like a very bad dream.  but I look at me today and know I am who I am because of st. pete and then it becomes all too clear!  I am a product of that

take care, Marnie
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 02:05:00 AM
Yeah, I know what you mean. When I was around 6 till I was about 17 a relative was fucking me pretty regularly. It all seems like a nightmare to me sometimes. But I know I'm a product of what Uncle Fred did. Good old Uncle Fred! I miss him sometimes, but that's what semi-automatics are all about.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 08:25:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-30 14:19:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Hey Mike - yes it has been a while - I needed to kind of back off for a while with the communication - but I have still been coming to this site to read all the posts and keep up to date - Hope you are well - it is fun to read about everyone and see how everyone is doing. -



Sometimes remembering Straight St. Pete

seems like a very bad dream.  but I look at me today and know I am who I am because of st. pete and then it becomes all too clear!  I am a product of that



take care, Marnie"


My memory is fading, did Mike Sherman has red hair?  Also, how is Mike Murphy?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 09:30:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-03-31 05:25:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-03-30 14:19:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Hey Mike - yes it has been a while - I needed to kind of back off for a while with the communication - but I have still been coming to this site to read all the posts and keep up to date - Hope you are well - it is fun to read about everyone and see how everyone is doing. -





Sometimes remembering Straight St. Pete


seems like a very bad dream.  but I look at me today and know I am who I am because of st. pete and then it becomes all too clear!  I am a product of that





take care, Marnie"




My memory is fading, did Mike Sherman has red hair?  Also, how is Mike Murphy?"


Yes, Sherman has/had red hair, although some of it is gray now. LOL - he is an old fucker!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 12:38:00 PM
And any word of Mike Murphy?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 12:43:00 PM
I Saw Mike Murphy a couple of years back - He has chaged dramatically - I did not recognise him

Marnie
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 02:55:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-31 09:43:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I Saw Mike Murphy a couple of years back - He has chaged dramatically - I did not recognise him



Marnie"


Did you ever work in Sarasota?  I remember you on staff in St. Pete; long staright hair a bit of a lisp?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 02:56:00 PM
Yeth.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 03:17:00 PM
Hey Marnie,

Wow...just seeing your name brought back alot of memories. I was in the St.Pete program  in 1979 and remember you well. I remember you as being one of the nicer staff members, at least I don't recall you being a " bitch" or being really horrible to other people, cause I remember the ones that were well.

I didn't know that you posted here but I haven't been around here all that long either so you may have already answered this before.
 I am curious to know all these years later, how you feel about the program and about being on staff. I agree with what you said earlier about being who you are today because of your experience there, as I feel the same way. I always wondered though if when you guys,"staff", got together if you ever said anyhting to eachother about what was going on. I saw Wanda and Amy treat some of the kids horribly and I just wonder, did anyone ever try and address that with them? With any staff memeber who went to far??

You were there for my entire program, so I don't know when you left but did something happen to make you leave?

If you've already answered all this, let me know where to look and I'll try and find the thread.

Peace
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 04:04:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-03-31 11:56:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Yeth."


LOL :rofl:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on March 31, 2006, 04:06:00 PM
I thought you'd like that. Frank.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on April 01, 2006, 07:25:00 AM
Hyya Marnie

I also remember you. I remember you as being a kind and gentile person in the midst of vicious bitches. I remember thinking to myself about the ?good cop?bad cop? scenario and if that was a conscious act?or if in fact you were a decent human being, that I thought you were.

In my minds eye, I can envision you and Amy Wright/Murphy leading group?I can remember Amy simply over powering you?as if she was queen bee or something.  I can remember Amy being exceptionally cruel to us, especially the girl? side?Yeah, we guys had it rough, no doubt (with Dave Crock Criss Casslor and Doug Heminger) but I used to think to myself that the girls really had it rough with Amy.

Now as an adolescent male?Amy really was a striking, almost imposing female. We used to call her Amazon Amy. I also remember that she was an important lesson to me at the time. That lesson being, ?A pretty face don?t mean a pretty heart?. (Sorry for stealing lyrics to articulate what I could not?at the time) She was simply a mean and cruel bitch.

I also recall, because of her status and her appearance she was a huge influence on the girls. Two in particular, Wanda Miton and Leslie Fetrow. I recall Wanda following her around like a puppy and how she would always look at Amy with adoration. It always seemed that Wanda was trying to emulate Amy?but that was silly, Wanda seemed to have her own special streak of cruelty, but Amy?s influence was felt and observed long after Amy left and of course Wanda stayed.

After I read your most recent post yesterday I recalled a time, and at first I thought you were involved?but it was actually Liz Cassidy (very early on in her tenure as staff) She pulled me out of group and lead me to an office were my parents and Laura Morgan were waiting. I thought I was going to be pulled (a brief but powerful sense of relieve was experienced) As it turned out, I was informed my grand father had past away. I was informed that I would not be allowed to attend the funeral, in Savannah Ga. The justification for not allowing me to attend his funeral was the concern that I may have run. Which in all honesty I had not even really seriously considered, as I hadn?t been locked up that long as of that time. So, I thought it absurd that my running was even considered by others, before I had considered it. But believe me, I started to think about running shortly after that experience. I didn?t run until third phase, while at school?it was just the safest thing to do.

My grand fathers death affected me for along time and the fact that I was not allowed to attend his funeral still infuriates me till this day. Infact, I have yet to visit his grave site, and I have only this year begun to re-establish connections with cousins that later went thru Straight as well. Perhaps this year at the family reunion I will finally visit his grave?and possibly I will be able to put a lot of this to rest.

I am glad you are back Marnie from your hiatus from fornits. I joined the forum shortly after you stepped back from the site. Like others have said, you have a lot of insight into a world that we feared and despised?the world of the staff member. I don?t know that you owe us anything?however, I know I would be thankful for any insight that you may have to offer.

It is odd to me how I can harbor such anger and rage at staff in general, but to someone whom I thought was a decent human being, that seemed truly compassionate, such as yourself?I have no anger or ill will.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 01:46:00 PM
Quote

It is odd to me how I can harbor such anger and rage at staff in general, but to someone whom I thought was a decent human being, that seemed truly compassionate, such as yourself?I have no anger or ill will.

"


Because as hard as it is to beleive, not all of us staff members knew of the mistreatment that was going on.  I was on staff in Sarasota at the very beginning and did not see the things that have been shared here.  Was I purposely kept in the dark? I dunno.  I did and still do believe that I sincerely helped some people.      That was my only motivation to be on staff.  I was on until junior staff and then decided it was time to move on with my life.  I graduated high school and went on to college.

I was not treated in the ways described here, but I do not discount the awful experieinces described.  I do believe I was helped by the program and I needed it at that partucular time in my life.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: RTP2003 on April 01, 2006, 02:08:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-01 10:46:00, Anonymous wrote:

 I do believe I was helped by the program and I needed it at that partucular time in my life."


Stop smoking angel dust.  I don't buy for half a second that you didn't think or didn't know that what happened every day at Straight was fucking abusive.  You are/were either insane, blind, incredibly stupid, or a goddamn liar trying to cover up your complicity in abuse.  You were paid to abuse children.  How do you "feel about that", Staffer?  Straight didn't help anyone, you included.  You "needed Straight at that time in your life" like you needed to have your arm removed because you had a hangnail.  You need a fucking lobotomy if you still think you were "helped by Straight" or that you were "one of the good staff".  Get high, get fucked, and fuck off.  

Also, I'm curious, was your brother Ken Sykes in St. Petersburg?  What happened to that poor kid day in and day out was fucking cruel and inhuman, even by Straight's standards.  The kid (his dad worked for Lockheed or Honeywell, or some defense contractor) was fucking obviously mentally challenged, and his kind and loving family put him is Straight to further aggravate the situation.

PEople like you really make me fucking puke.  You take NO responsibility for the abuse you participated in , every goddamn day (ironic, isn't it, that after preaching 'take responsibility for your actions' all the time that you refuse to do so yourself---fucking hypocrite).

Stop shovelling shit my way, and stop bullshitting yourself.  You were a paid professional child abuser, and you think it was OK because you are too stupid to see through the lies you help to propagate.

Fuck off.[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2006-04-01 11:09 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 03:10:00 PM
This post was not from Me -

Marnie Sykes
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 03:39:00 PM
I was a very scared staff member... from staff trainee to Sr. Staff - I always felt inferior to all others - I always doubted myself - Straight was good at making all feel inferior - including staff - I did not want to be on staff most of the time I was there, but I felt like if I said I wanted to leave, other staff would think I was screwing up. I hid behind the more powerful staff but I did not go along with the power bullshit from the likes of Liz Cassidy, Doug Hemminger, Dave Crock, Aimee Murphy etc., etc., etc.  Liz Cassidy was Full of shit like many others.  I feel my heart was for the most part honest and true when it came to the kids in group. I remember loving to lead girls rap because for the most part it was intimate and I could be myself without having to "show what you had" as a staff member - egos led most bad staff members (false egos).  I regret that I stood by at times and let cruel things happen - but I was like a kid in group as well - shocked that things could occur and powerless to do much.  so many times I wanted to run and hide.

 I remember when parents would come and pull their kids out of the program, even on staff, I wish that kid was me.  strange huh?  I did like knowing so many good people.  but the downside outweighed the good - FOR SURE!!!!!!!!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 03:40:00 PM
Now that last post was from Marnie Sykes ME!
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 03:44:00 PM
As fars As Aimee Murphy - I heard she had a BAD stroke some years back. - Mike Murphy has not been with her for years

Marnie Sykes
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 05:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-01 11:08:00, RTP2003 wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-04-01 10:46:00, Anonymous wrote:



 I do believe I was helped by the program and I needed it at that partucular time in my life."




Stop smoking angel dust.  I don't buy for half a second that you didn't think or didn't know that what happened every day at Straight was fucking abusive.  You are/were either insane, blind, incredibly stupid, or a goddamn liar trying to cover up your complicity in abuse.  You were paid to abuse children.  How do you "feel about that", Staffer?  Straight didn't help anyone, you included.  You "needed Straight at that time in your life" like you needed to have your arm removed because you had a hangnail.  You need a fucking lobotomy if you still think you were "helped by Straight" or that you were "one of the good staff".  Get high, get fucked, and fuck off.  



Also, I'm curious, was your brother Ken Sykes in St. Petersburg?  What happened to that poor kid day in and day out was fucking cruel and inhuman, even by Straight's standards.  The kid (his dad worked for Lockheed or Honeywell, or some defense contractor) was fucking obviously mentally challenged, and his kind and loving family put him is Straight to further aggravate the situation.



PEople like you really make me fucking puke.  You take NO responsibility for the abuse you participated in , every goddamn day (ironic, isn't it, that after preaching 'take responsibility for your actions' all the time that you refuse to do so yourself---fucking hypocrite).



Stop shovelling shit my way, and stop bullshitting yourself.  You were a paid professional child abuser, and you think it was OK because you are too stupid to see through the lies you help to propagate.



Fuck off.[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2006-04-01 11:09 ]"


Sounds like you're stuck in the past my friend.  I stand by what I said. Despite what YOU think, there are people that actually were helped.  And no, I did not see the abuses that have been described here. Sorry. Yes there were staffers who were on power trips and tried to abuse what power they had.  Dave Crock was the biggest asshole there was.  I was intimdated by him  and he was the primary reason I left.  I was taught that I didn't need to be embarassed and humiliated because I made a mistake in running a rap.  So, I grew some balls, quit and got back to the real world where I could simply get fired if I fucked up at work; I could have have a girlfriend; and I couold go to school like a normal kid.

Look, you will never believe me and I will always stand by what I said.  You see, I don't back down by overbearing assholes anymore.  Straight wasn't a vavcation for me, but I think it's what I, not you or anyone else, needed at the time.  Peace.  

This email is not from Marnie.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 05:40:00 PM
Soun's like yer stuck in th' past mah friend, cuss it all t' tarnation. ah stan' by whut ah said, cuss it all t' tarnation. Despite whut YOU reckon, thar is varmints thet acshully were he'ped, cuss it all t' tarnation. An' no, ah did not see th' abuses thet haf been dexcribed hyar. So'ry. Yessuh thar were staffers who were on power trips an' tried t'abuse whut power they had, cuss it all t' tarnation. Abner Crock was th' mos' trimenjus asshole thar was. ah was intimdated by him an' he was th' primary reason ah lef'. ah was taught thet ah didn't need t'be embareessed an' hoomiliated on account o' ah made a mistake in runnin' a rap. So, ah grew some balls, quit an' got back t'th' real wo'ld whar ah c'd simply git fired eff'n ah fucked up at wawk; ah c'd haf have a galfriend; an' ah couold hoof it to skoo like a no'mal kid, cuss it all t' tarnation.

Look, yo' will nevah believe me an' ah will allus stan' by whut ah said, cuss it all t' tarnation. Yo' see, ah doesn't back down by on overbarin' assholes ennymo'e. Straight warn't a vavcashun fo' me, but ah reckon it's whut I, notcha o' ennyone else, needed at th' time. Peace.

This hyar email is not fum Marnie.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 06:21:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-01 14:40:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Soun's like yer stuck in th' past mah friend, cuss it all t' tarnation. ah stan' by whut ah said, cuss it all t' tarnation. Despite whut YOU reckon, thar is varmints thet acshully were he'ped, cuss it all t' tarnation. An' no, ah did not see th' abuses thet haf been dexcribed hyar. So'ry. Yessuh thar were staffers who were on power trips an' tried t'abuse whut power they had, cuss it all t' tarnation. Abner Crock was th' mos' trimenjus asshole thar was. ah was intimdated by him an' he was th' primary reason ah lef'. ah was taught thet ah didn't need t'be embareessed an' hoomiliated on account o' ah made a mistake in runnin' a rap. So, ah grew some balls, quit an' got back t'th' real wo'ld whar ah c'd simply git fired eff'n ah fucked up at wawk; ah c'd haf have a galfriend; an' ah couold hoof it to skoo like a no'mal kid, cuss it all t' tarnation.



Look, yo' will nevah believe me an' ah will allus stan' by whut ah said, cuss it all t' tarnation. Yo' see, ah doesn't back down by on overbarin' assholes ennymo'e. Straight warn't a vavcashun fo' me, but ah reckon it's whut I, notcha o' ennyone else, needed at th' time. Peace.



This hyar email is not fum Marnie."


wow; snoop dog must be your daddy nigger boy
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on April 01, 2006, 07:14:00 PM
Well I knew both of you guys. And I'll vouch for you not being intentionally sadistic. I even believe you when you say you didn't "see" any abuse, John. When HRS asked me, I said no. I didn't consider it abuse, even when I got tackled and pinned to the concrete for a couple of hours then bounced around the inside of a timeout room by Marti, among others.

Not that I thought it was right when it happened to anybody. Just that I 'did the necessary things' or, more acurately, I knew what would happen when I refused to apologize to Group like that asshole, Chris Casselor ordered me to, so then it wouldn't be fair to turn around and bitch about it.

But I was just a kid then and coming out of roughly 12 years of having my brain scrambled and family disassembled by the Seed, culminating in 2 years of intensive mind fuck there in Sarasota. We're grown now. We've all had some time to think. Isn't it about damned time to own up?

You enjoyed it, Marnie? Ok, I can understand how you thought you were doing good then. You were pretty much raised in the program too. And you too were just a kid. But now?

Try this, Marnie. Go on down to your local high school. Volunteer as a teachers' aid. When you get a group of girls alone, trapped in study hall or something and start demanding that they tell the whole class the intimate details of the time their uncle tried to fuck them or the first time they snuck away to start finding out what sex is all about w/ their very first serious crush.

How would that work out for you do ya think? I think someone would march right out the door (something we couldn't do) and report you to the first sane adult they encountered and you'd be charged w/ multiple counts of lewd and lascivious act on a minor or corrupting minors or sexual assault or some such, as it should be.

Oh, what fun we had breaking the minds and spirits of little girls, pumping them for embarrasing intimate details to be bandied about in those shit talkin' sessions you had in the staff office, told to their parents and held over their heads indefinitely. Ah, the good old daze! I sure do miss them!  ::puke::

There's just so much more. Every minute of every day, what with all the snitch culture, fear of anyone discovering how fucking miserable you were and holding your feet to the fire till you confessed your private "bad thoughts" to the entire group so they could swarm like hungry pirhanas and tear apart, analyze, condemn and degrade your very soul while staff (you) mused over just which kind of torture to impose for the crime of being honest about that place being a fucking unending nightmare.

I'm glad I knew better than to ever tell you anything real or important.

See, to me, this kind of warped culture had been SOP since I was around 6. By the time I was 9 or so I knew it was fucked up and I was just going to have to play the game till I came of age and could book it to some other state and, finally, finally, be myself for once in my sorry assed life. Straight was, from my point of view, a monumental hassle, boring, a waste of time, depressing, infuriating, frustrating, but not eternal. Unlike most of the rest of you, I also knew very well that you get out eventually. It was a sanity saver. I couldn't have put it into words at the time. I tried a couple of times when I was hitchhiking around and someone would ask what was so bad that I was running from. I just couldn't really explain it.

What I didn't know is that you people didn't have that edge. Without that edge, it was more than just unpleasant in the moment. It was a very effective mindfuck. People were broken, damaged, even driven to suicide and other desperate measures slowly but slowly, by degrees, right in front of us. Worse? We all helped do it to them. We had to, at least to some degree, just to survive.

Worse still? When we had done our job effectively and someone really did finally have a total nervous breakdown, we all joined in (willingly or not) in pointing and clucking and damning them, "What a shame, what a shame! See, we knew that kid was fucked up and in need of help. What a cryin shame he didn't accept the help we so generously offered." And then they were shunned, after however long isolated from the real world and having had a scorched Earth campaign run on their lives.

Sorry as hell I didn't recognize back then that I had an unfair advantage. Because I didn't know that, I played my role, delivered my lines and just assumed it wasn't effecting anybody. I'll always be sorry as hell for that.

And you might think I'm being cruel or bitter or can't get over it and that I should just be polite and leave your fantasies intact. Why put you through it, right? What other motive could I possibly have except to inflict pain on you.

Well that's not my motive. I remember you well, Marnie. And you too, Speed Racer. Both of you are unusually kind, decent people, if a bit misguided. And I've often wondered how you made out. I'm sure everyone who knows you sees how kind you are and they probably trust your advice. So what happens when someone asks your advice in dealing with their troubled, rebellious or pot smoking kid?

If you don't know what the fuck you did, if you still persist in shading it in soft, glowing terms, except for the things those other, overtly sadistic staffers and inmates did, you'd probably help them find a TC for that kid, one based on the same fucked up model, but one that does a slightly better job of hiding the casualties. So your fantasies and your good intentions might very well result in some other kids being broken and demoralized, their lives trashed and their families and friends taken away from them of you ain't got the guts to face what we did in there.

All good intentions aside, that makes you very dangerous people. Those comforting lies can be very expensive to innocent others.

If you don't want to talk about the real dear, you'll have to make yourself a private forum where you can delete those ideas you don't care to entertain. If you're going to engage on this topic without censorship and control, sorry guys. Again, you're very nice people and I remember you both very fondly. But this is for real.

The will to learn is an intrinsic motive...The will to learn becomes a 'problem' only under specialized circumstances like those of a school where the curriculum is set, students confined, and a path fixed.
--Jerome S. Bruner, Harvard.

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 01, 2006, 07:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-01 15:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

Quote

On 2006-04-01 14:40:00, Anonymous wrote:


"Soun's like yer stuck in th' past mah friend, cuss it all t' tarnation. ah stan' by whut ah said, cuss it all t' tarnation. Despite whut YOU reckon, thar is varmints thet acshully were he'ped, cuss it all t' tarnation. An' no, ah did not see th' abuses thet haf been dexcribed hyar. So'ry. Yessuh thar were staffers who were on power trips an' tried t'abuse whut power they had, cuss it all t' tarnation. Abner Crock was th' mos' trimenjus asshole thar was. ah was intimdated by him an' he was th' primary reason ah lef'. ah was taught thet ah didn't need t'be embareessed an' hoomiliated on account o' ah made a mistake in runnin' a rap. So, ah grew some balls, quit an' got back t'th' real wo'ld whar ah c'd simply git fired eff'n ah fucked up at wawk; ah c'd haf have a galfriend; an' ah couold hoof it to skoo like a no'mal kid, cuss it all t' tarnation.





Look, yo' will nevah believe me an' ah will allus stan' by whut ah said, cuss it all t' tarnation. Yo' see, ah doesn't back down by on overbarin' assholes ennymo'e. Straight warn't a vavcashun fo' me, but ah reckon it's whut I, notcha o' ennyone else, needed at th' time. Peace.





This hyar email is not fum Marnie."




wow; snoop dog must be your daddy nigger boy"

That was a "redneck" translation ya fukkin moron!  :lol:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on April 01, 2006, 08:04:00 PM
And, by the way...

Quote
On 2005-08-25 14:51:00, Anonymous wrote:

I used to be a junior staff member in Sarasota and led raps to try and make people think and guess at what we were actually talking about. Little did most people know I had no idea what I the topic was either.


Yeah, right? It was just so much fun having to kiss your ass and pretend you were soooo fuckin clever. Just another little brick in the wall, John. I'm just so glad to hear you got off on our humiliation.

My advice is: invest in Kentucky Fried Peking Duck franchises.
G.I. Joe at November 20, 2005

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 02, 2006, 08:20:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-01 16:14:00, Eudora wrote:

"Well I knew both of you guys. And I'll vouch for you not being intentionally sadistic. I even believe you when you say you didn't "see" any abuse, John. When HRS asked me, I said no. I didn't consider it abuse, even when I got tackled and pinned to the concrete for a couple of hours then bounced around the inside of a timeout room by Marti, among others.



Not that I thought it was right when it happened to anybody. Just that I 'did the necessary things' or, more acurately, I knew what would happen when I refused to apologize to Group like that asshole, Chris Casselor ordered me to, so then it wouldn't be fair to turn around and bitch about it.



But I was just a kid then and coming out of roughly 12 years of having my brain scrambled and family disassembled by the Seed, culminating in 2 years of intensive mind fuck there in Sarasota. We're grown now. We've all had some time to think. Isn't it about damned time to own up?



You enjoyed it, Marnie? Ok, I can understand how you thought you were doing good then. You were pretty much raised in the program too. And you too were just a kid. But now?



Try this, Marnie. Go on down to your local high school. Volunteer as a teachers' aid. When you get a group of girls alone, trapped in study hall or something and start demanding that they tell the whole class the intimate details of the time their uncle tried to fuck them or the first time they snuck away to start finding out what sex is all about w/ their very first serious crush.



How would that work out for you do ya think? I think someone would march right out the door (something we couldn't do) and report you to the first sane adult they encountered and you'd be charged w/ multiple counts of lewd and lascivious act on a minor or corrupting minors or sexual assault or some such, as it should be.



Oh, what fun we had breaking the minds and spirits of little girls, pumping them for embarrasing intimate details to be bandied about in those shit talkin' sessions you had in the staff office, told to their parents and held over their heads indefinitely. Ah, the good old daze! I sure do miss them!  ::puke::



There's just so much more. Every minute of every day, what with all the snitch culture, fear of anyone discovering how fucking miserable you were and holding your feet to the fire till you confessed your private "bad thoughts" to the entire group so they could swarm like hungry pirhanas and tear apart, analyze, condemn and degrade your very soul while staff (you) mused over just which kind of torture to impose for the crime of being honest about that place being a fucking unending nightmare.



I'm glad I knew better than to ever tell you anything real or important.



See, to me, this kind of warped culture had been SOP since I was around 6. By the time I was 9 or so I knew it was fucked up and I was just going to have to play the game till I came of age and could book it to some other state and, finally, finally, be myself for once in my sorry assed life. Straight was, from my point of view, a monumental hassle, boring, a waste of time, depressing, infuriating, frustrating, but not eternal. Unlike most of the rest of you, I also knew very well that you get out eventually. It was a sanity saver. I couldn't have put it into words at the time. I tried a couple of times when I was hitchhiking around and someone would ask what was so bad that I was running from. I just couldn't really explain it.



What I didn't know is that you people didn't have that edge. Without that edge, it was more than just unpleasant in the moment. It was a very effective mindfuck. People were broken, damaged, even driven to suicide and other desperate measures slowly but slowly, by degrees, right in front of us. Worse? We all helped do it to them. We had to, at least to some degree, just to survive.



Worse still? When we had done our job effectively and someone really did finally have a total nervous breakdown, we all joined in (willingly or not) in pointing and clucking and damning them, "What a shame, what a shame! See, we knew that kid was fucked up and in need of help. What a cryin shame he didn't accept the help we so generously offered." And then they were shunned, after however long isolated from the real world and having had a scorched Earth campaign run on their lives.



Sorry as hell I didn't recognize back then that I had an unfair advantage. Because I didn't know that, I played my role, delivered my lines and just assumed it wasn't effecting anybody. I'll always be sorry as hell for that.



And you might think I'm being cruel or bitter or can't get over it and that I should just be polite and leave your fantasies intact. Why put you through it, right? What other motive could I possibly have except to inflict pain on you.



Well that's not my motive. I remember you well, Marnie. And you too, Speed Racer. Both of you are unusually kind, decent people, if a bit misguided. And I've often wondered how you made out. I'm sure everyone who knows you sees how kind you are and they probably trust your advice. So what happens when someone asks your advice in dealing with their troubled, rebellious or pot smoking kid?



If you don't know what the fuck you did, if you still persist in shading it in soft, glowing terms, except for the things those other, overtly sadistic staffers and inmates did, you'd probably help them find a TC for that kid, one based on the same fucked up model, but one that does a slightly better job of hiding the casualties. So your fantasies and your good intentions might very well result in some other kids being broken and demoralized, their lives trashed and their families and friends taken away from them of you ain't got the guts to face what we did in there.



All good intentions aside, that makes you very dangerous people. Those comforting lies can be very expensive to innocent others.



If you don't want to talk about the real dear, you'll have to make yourself a private forum where you can delete those ideas you don't care to entertain. If you're going to engage on this topic without censorship and control, sorry guys. Again, you're very nice people and I remember you both very fondly. But this is for real.

The will to learn is an intrinsic motive...The will to learn becomes a 'problem' only under specialized circumstances like those of a school where the curriculum is set, students confined, and a path fixed.
--Jerome S. Bruner, Harvard.


"


You ask for staffers to post here to gain insight.  If it doesn't fit into your perspective, you go off on a tirade.  Justified? Absolutely.  But, as I've said before, I am appalled at what I've read here and have thought quite a bit about those times, but I did not experience the same things either in the program or on staff.  Sorry to disappoint.  This is my perspective whether or not you belive me or think I'm a sadistic fuck.  

I'm sorry I don't remember you because it might help to understand things a little better.  By the way, I would never recommend any type of program like Straight for treatment of drug use.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on April 02, 2006, 11:46:00 AM
Tirade? "a protracted speech usually marked by intemperate, vituperative, or harshly censorious language"? Really? That's a little dismissive.

I really am trying to understand. I'm sorry you don't remember me. Really. You remind me very much of my brother. Same thing, basically. He just loved the Seed. Went through twice and called it voluntary. Takes anything I have to say about it as vile balsphemey and personal insult. But he never did put his kids into such a program. I'm glad he didn't! But it's just really confusing.

How can you have been in St. Pete up until Sarasota moved off and not seen what everyone else did? I don't know much from St. Pete. cause I came in just a couple of weeks before the split off. But I believe these people. And things did't change much after the move. For example, don't you think it's cruel to keep kids from ever getting enough sleep then punish them for dozing off? That happened once to me in St. Pete. and the policy never changed after the move. Oh, how about reading people's personal journals in front of the whole damned group and then having a nice li'll group critique of the content? Do you think that's a decent thing to do? Would you do that to someone now?  
 
Where you there when Wanda Minton came down? Remember Charles Pendergrast and how much he enjoyed making little girls cry? Seriously, do you think all that singing and smiling was sincere and spontanious? To this day?

I just don't get it. If it was so helpful and you don't remembery any of the fucked up parts, even though you were in on all levels, then why would you never send anyone to a place like that?

Again, not making an accusation, just sincerely trying to understand.

science is the record of dead religions.
--Oscar Wilde

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on April 02, 2006, 12:07:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-02 05:20:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-04-01 16:14:00, Eudora wrote:


"Well I knew both of you guys. And I'll vouch for you not being intentionally sadistic. I even believe you when you say you didn't "see" any abuse, John. When HRS asked me, I said no. I didn't consider it abuse, even when I got tackled and pinned to the concrete for a couple of hours then bounced around the inside of a timeout room by Marti, among others.





Not that I thought it was right when it happened to anybody. Just that I 'did the necessary things' or, more acurately, I knew what would happen when I refused to apologize to Group like that asshole, Chris Casselor ordered me to, so then it wouldn't be fair to turn around and bitch about it.





But I was just a kid then and coming out of roughly 12 years of having my brain scrambled and family disassembled by the Seed, culminating in 2 years of intensive mind fuck there in Sarasota. We're grown now. We've all had some time to think. Isn't it about damned time to own up?





You enjoyed it, Marnie? Ok, I can understand how you thought you were doing good then. You were pretty much raised in the program too. And you too were just a kid. But now?





Try this, Marnie. Go on down to your local high school. Volunteer as a teachers' aid. When you get a group of girls alone, trapped in study hall or something and start demanding that they tell the whole class the intimate details of the time their uncle tried to fuck them or the first time they snuck away to start finding out what sex is all about w/ their very first serious crush.





How would that work out for you do ya think? I think someone would march right out the door (something we couldn't do) and report you to the first sane adult they encountered and you'd be charged w/ multiple counts of lewd and lascivious act on a minor or corrupting minors or sexual assault or some such, as it should be.





Oh, what fun we had breaking the minds and spirits of little girls, pumping them for embarrasing intimate details to be bandied about in those shit talkin' sessions you had in the staff office, told to their parents and held over their heads indefinitely. Ah, the good old daze! I sure do miss them!  ::puke::





There's just so much more. Every minute of every day, what with all the snitch culture, fear of anyone discovering how fucking miserable you were and holding your feet to the fire till you confessed your private "bad thoughts" to the entire group so they could swarm like hungry pirhanas and tear apart, analyze, condemn and degrade your very soul while staff (you) mused over just which kind of torture to impose for the crime of being honest about that place being a fucking unending nightmare.





I'm glad I knew better than to ever tell you anything real or important.





See, to me, this kind of warped culture had been SOP since I was around 6. By the time I was 9 or so I knew it was fucked up and I was just going to have to play the game till I came of age and could book it to some other state and, finally, finally, be myself for once in my sorry assed life. Straight was, from my point of view, a monumental hassle, boring, a waste of time, depressing, infuriating, frustrating, but not eternal. Unlike most of the rest of you, I also knew very well that you get out eventually. It was a sanity saver. I couldn't have put it into words at the time. I tried a couple of times when I was hitchhiking around and someone would ask what was so bad that I was running from. I just couldn't really explain it.





What I didn't know is that you people didn't have that edge. Without that edge, it was more than just unpleasant in the moment. It was a very effective mindfuck. People were broken, damaged, even driven to suicide and other desperate measures slowly but slowly, by degrees, right in front of us. Worse? We all helped do it to them. We had to, at least to some degree, just to survive.





Worse still? When we had done our job effectively and someone really did finally have a total nervous breakdown, we all joined in (willingly or not) in pointing and clucking and damning them, "What a shame, what a shame! See, we knew that kid was fucked up and in need of help. What a cryin shame he didn't accept the help we so generously offered." And then they were shunned, after however long isolated from the real world and having had a scorched Earth campaign run on their lives.





Sorry as hell I didn't recognize back then that I had an unfair advantage. Because I didn't know that, I played my role, delivered my lines and just assumed it wasn't effecting anybody. I'll always be sorry as hell for that.





And you might think I'm being cruel or bitter or can't get over it and that I should just be polite and leave your fantasies intact. Why put you through it, right? What other motive could I possibly have except to inflict pain on you.





Well that's not my motive. I remember you well, Marnie. And you too, Speed Racer. Both of you are unusually kind, decent people, if a bit misguided. And I've often wondered how you made out. I'm sure everyone who knows you sees how kind you are and they probably trust your advice. So what happens when someone asks your advice in dealing with their troubled, rebellious or pot smoking kid?





If you don't know what the fuck you did, if you still persist in shading it in soft, glowing terms, except for the things those other, overtly sadistic staffers and inmates did, you'd probably help them find a TC for that kid, one based on the same fucked up model, but one that does a slightly better job of hiding the casualties. So your fantasies and your good intentions might very well result in some other kids being broken and demoralized, their lives trashed and their families and friends taken away from them of you ain't got the guts to face what we did in there.





All good intentions aside, that makes you very dangerous people. Those comforting lies can be very expensive to innocent others.





If you don't want to talk about the real dear, you'll have to make yourself a private forum where you can delete those ideas you don't care to entertain. If you're going to engage on this topic without censorship and control, sorry guys. Again, you're very nice people and I remember you both very fondly. But this is for real.


The will to learn is an intrinsic motive...The will to learn becomes a 'problem' only under specialized circumstances like those of a school where the curriculum is set, students confined, and a path fixed.
--Jerome S. Bruner, Harvard.



"




You ask for staffers to post here to gain insight.  If it doesn't fit into your perspective, you go off on a tirade.  Justified? Absolutely.  But, as I've said before, I am appalled at what I've read here and have thought quite a bit about those times, but I did not experience the same things either in the program or on staff.  Sorry to disappoint.  This is my perspective whether or not you belive me or think I'm a sadistic fuck.  



I'm sorry I don't remember you because it might help to understand things a little better.  By the way, I would never recommend any type of program like Straight for treatment of drug use.  "


Sorry for this long post...Ya know...Sunday morning...Jamacian Blue Mountain Coffee and Babbling Botanicals or Chatter Weed...at any rate...be forewarned...this is a long ass post

"Not all of us staff members knew of the mistreatment that was going on. I was on staff in Sarasota at the very beginning and did not see the things that have been shared here. "

Hmmm, sounds very familiar and certainly runs parallel to an early post (which I think you wrote) that said---

"I used to be a junior staff member in Sarasota and led raps to try and make people think and guess at what we were actually talking about. Little did most people know I had no idea what I the topic was either."

In both instances that I have quoted you claim to be completely oblivious to the world around you. You had no clue...YOU HAD NO CLUE??? Huh?

I was incarcerated before you John, and much of the more systematic/sadistic/systemic abuse took place after my time. But was is abuntantly clear to me...justa pee-on client...was that the ground work that paved the way for such abuses was set long before I even got there. You, came in after I did, and you could not have escaped what other people did not.

It amazes me, astounds me, that the
hate/fear/distrust/anger/deception/cruelty/humiliation/intimidation that a whole
group experienced (and remeber very clearly to this day) witnessed and participated on a daily basis...that you, somehow did not observe (much less experience) any of this. Before the extreme phyisical violence there was the subtle physical violence. And what preceded that was the blatant mental and emotional violence...which I have said, preceeded and or paved the way to the wholesale acceptance of physical abuse....and ya didnt experience or witness any of this???

Hate to use the phrase....But where in the fuck was your awareness...

I read and have read several times that you sincerly believe you helped people. There is an arrogance about this that just makes me seethe in rage. Such Arrogance! You as the "helper" (if you really helped) can have no earthly idea if
you helped or not. In the same breath, I think you may not know the damage you may have created. And still there is an effort to entertain the illusion that you are sheltered from your past...because you were just helping. I couldn't or rather I "didn't see the abuse because I was too busy "helping people". That sounds like Mother Theresa not admitting poverty & starvation because she was too busy tending to the leppers.

Giving you the benifit of the doubt...I will venture to say that perhaps (maybe) your use of the word "help" or "helping" is in and of itself misleading. Not knowing (remembering) you personally, I rely on what you have said and what others have said about you. My idea of you is that of a decent person. That you are kind and thoughtfull of yourself and the world around you. That being said...Think of this as a matter of semantics. You, back then...back in the day "extended your hand" to others (and called it "helping"). Your focus was on that "extended hand". What you have not noticed or have yet to relise is that Straight had your "other hand" and you had no idea then (or now apparently) what Straight was doing with the "other hand". Fertile ground for the "Messiah Complex" to take root.

All behavior at some point was accepted and promoted under the guise of "theraphy". Upon my arrival at the Milton Roy building there already was an air of intimidation about the staff, the groups responce was fear.  

Remember "Running"...being hauled around the preimiter of the building by the belt loop running as hard as they could push you....remember that? Recall the "Exercise
Raps" where individual puddles of sweat merged into one big puddle...remember people passing out and landing on thier faces...It was important that we had exercise in our "therapy" right? Remember that part (a huge part) of our "theraphy" was...um...CONFRONTATION. On the surface, confrontation sounds logical and so it
was a justified means of "treatment". John, you never got stood up and raked over the coals? Ok, so ya didnt get slammed to the floor, thrown into time out, have a staff member hump your ass while 5-6 people held ya down and 6-7 stood and
watched...BUt I know you had to have been "stood up" and you felt defensless as "we" systematically took you appart...How many times had you sat in group...terrified of being stood up....TERRIFIED. No one learns from a teacher that employs terroistic measures...I think it was you who said that you had no idea what
you were talking about while leading the groups...and yet it was justified "theraphy"...Dude, thats pretty fucked up right there. While you had no idea what
you were talking about (which you admitted) and their were kids infront of you terrified....TERRIFIED.

Then consider our "leadership"...Forever it seemed Helen Peterman was the heart and soul of the program...oh yeah Jim Hartz to. But Mz Pete was in control...we knew it...staff knew it...parents knew it. It sucked. It really sucked bad. There seemed no end. Then somewhere along the line someone relized there were no
licensed professionals associated with the program.

Enter George Ross...a baffoon, really....seriously, a baffoon. I was on my second third phase about that time...just entering the 4th phase when George made his
presence. The whole rational self anaylisis thing brought about a hyper-awreness of
ourselves and our surroundings. To further control a continually unsettled group this
crap was used increasingly against each other in groups.

Together this combination of the intimidation and fear that Helen brought to the table with George Ross's baffonish intellect where simply a breeding ground once Miller Newton came into the picture. Miller brought cruelty (in the name of
theraphy) to a whole new level. Thank god he was only there for last months of my incarceration in Straight.

My point is that Straight got progressively worse and to add insult, it was done in the
name of "theraphy". Conditions that staff brought about and which we allowed thru
our own compliance. Because we were compliant and acting participants (in some way shape or form) and the mindset we were to employ made it easy for the likes of Miller Newton to charm and destroy. Any cult worth it's salt has that...a
charismatic leader. And each of our "leaders" were charismatic...cept George.

As I said, I was a pee-on client...and I was there same time as you were. I didn't suffer at your hands....no, thats not the point. But you were there, you suffered because of staff...I know ya did...and you went on to the same group that inflicted the suffering. And in your best honesty you say " I am appalled at what I've read here and have thought quite a bit about those times, but I did not experience the
same things either in the program or on staff." Ok, maybe...I cant relate to Atlanta, Orlando, Sarasota or any other program in another location long long after I was
there.

But dude...I know what it was like when I got there and I know what the group was like when you got there. We made it possible for the horrors that you read on this site. The very least I can do is to not disrespect any of those who were locked up long after I was gone. I do it very simply, I discuss my experience. Spending energy to write about what I did not experience is not only a waste of time but
antagonises and disrespects those who have. And as I have said, it comes across as most arrogant...as if implying it never happened.

This denial, this illusion that Straight was a good thing is so easy to pop thru...to
those who experienced it. Example, this year after 27 years I got together with a
cousin, who also went thru Straight...long after I did. In our first change to talk, at
some point in the conversation he suddenly blurted out "Well, just gotta apply the
first step I guess"...I was stunned! I asked him, "Do you really believe what you just said...could you show me an example of how that would help?" He lowered his head and his voice and said humbly, "No". By that point it was like not talking about the white elephant in the room and I couldnt stand it, so I made another reference to Straight and he got real firm and said, "It's not something I talk about!" to which I replied....Dude, your my cousin, my blood, and you experienced what I did and worse...this IS the time to talk about it. Within minutes he began a one way conversation about his experience in Straight and the time following.

It amazed he and I both that he was some what still a Straight supporter and he rang the very same bell that you do...it helped me and I helped others...the moment of dis-illuisionment was painfull for my cousin, which seemed odd
because dis-illusion was suppossed to be a good thing. He let go of years of bullshit, finally he was with someone he could say exactly how he felt with no reprisal he would have surely gotten from his immediate family if he spoke honestly about his experience at Straight.


BTW: Marnie and Marti...two different people right?

I knew a Marti...Heath was it? If memory serves me she slapped the living fuck out of Chriss Casslor (how ever ya spell his name)once. She slapped him when he got real close, she was on front row. He was stunned and further pushed her to slap him again if it made her feel better...so she did and knocked him way the fuck back...atta girl marti
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: RTP2003 on April 02, 2006, 02:03:00 PM
On 2006-04-01 14:21:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-04-01 11:08:00, RTP2003 wrote:


"
Quote


On 2006-04-01 10:46:00, Anonymous wrote:





 I do believe I was helped by the program and I needed it at that partucular time in my life."







Stop smoking angel dust.  I don't buy for half a second that you didn't think or didn't know that what happened every day at Straight was fucking abusive.  You are/were either insane, blind, incredibly stupid, or a goddamn liar trying to cover up your complicity in abuse.  You were paid to abuse children.  How do you "feel about that", Staffer?  Straight didn't help anyone, you included.  You "needed Straight at that time in your life" like you needed to have your arm removed because you had a hangnail.  You need a fucking lobotomy if you still think you were "helped by Straight" or that you were "one of the good staff".  Get high, get fucked, and fuck off.  





Also, I'm curious, was your brother Ken Sykes in St. Petersburg?  What happened to that poor kid day in and day out was fucking cruel and inhuman, even by Straight's standards.  The kid (his dad worked for Lockheed or Honeywell, or some defense contractor) was fucking obviously mentally challenged, and his kind and loving family put him is Straight to further aggravate the situation.





PEople like you really make me fucking puke.  You take NO responsibility for the abuse you participated in , every goddamn day (ironic, isn't it, that after preaching 'take responsibility for your actions' all the time that you refuse to do so yourself---fucking hypocrite).





Stop shovelling shit my way, and stop bullshitting yourself.  You were a paid professional child abuser, and you think it was OK because you are too stupid to see through the lies you help to propagate.





Fuck off.[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2006-04-01 11:09 ]"




Quote

Sounds like you're stuck in the past my friend.

Look, Dickweed, you are no friend of mine. And I am firmly in the present, the here and now, my thinking is "based on objective reality", not through "rose colored glasses", as yours obviously is.  Let's play a little game of pretend.  Let's pretend that there was no physical abuse, no denial of food, water, sleep, or bathroom facilities, that Straight was just about "sharing our feelings" and "working the Program".  OK?   Well, Dickweed, even if that were the case, which it damn sure was NOT, Straight, Inc. would have been a dangerous, harmful institution.  Like the example given by Eudora regarding getting kids to confess to a group of people the most intimate details of their lives, placing the blame on them for being victimized, etc., etc.  

Quote
 I stand by what I said. Despite what YOU think, there are people that actually were helped.

If by "helped" you mean abused, humiliated, degraded, taught to loathe themselves, had their spirits broken, or brainwashed into thinking that they got something good out of Straight, then, yeah, I'd agree that some people were "helped" by Straight, Inc.




Quote
 And no, I did not see the abuses that have been described here.

And I stand by my statement.  You are/were either blind, insane, incredibly stupid, or a goddamn liar.  Right now my money's on "incredibly stupid" or "goddamn liar".


Quote
Look, you will never believe me and I will always stand by what I said.


Damn right I don't believe you, and I will not believe you until you quit selectively editing your memories.  

 


Quote
You see, I don't back down by overbearing assholes anymore.  Straight wasn't a vavcation for me, but I think it's what I, not you or anyone else, needed at the time.  Peace.



So "backing down to overbearing assholes" was a practice required of you in Straight?   Hmmm, continue with that line of thought and maybe you will come a little closer to the truth of the experience you had at Straight.  Personally, I think you were a paid professional child abuser who cannot cope with the guilt you would feel if you admitted it to yourself, so you minimize it by telling yourself "oh, well, at least it helped me.....no vacation to be sure, but it was what I needed".  Even if it was what YOU needed, what about the other 99% of the group?  Are you qualified top make that statement for them?  

Also did you ever verbally humiliate, give consequences to, or order the physical restraint of someone while you were on Staff?  How 'bout lead a rap requiring kids to give out intimate details about personal issues?  Of course you did, you were on staff at Straight.  And that, my non-friend, is child abuse.  and you, my non-friend, as a paid staff member, were a child abuser[/b].


I don't give a flying fuck which child abusing ex-staff member the original email came from, both of yas sound like you're drowning in Kool Aid.[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2006-04-02 11:04 ]
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on April 02, 2006, 03:00:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-02 09:07:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:

Sorry for this long post...Ya know...Sunday morning...Jamacian Blue Mountain Coffee and Babbling Botanicals or Chatter Weed...at any rate...be forewarned...this is a long ass post


Ooh, just what the doctor ordered! Setting in the soak it up raht about ....now!

Religion is comparable to a childhood neurosis.
--Sigmund Freud, Austrian-born psychologist

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on April 02, 2006, 03:18:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-02 09:07:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:

BTW: Marnie and Marti...two different people right?

Truer words were never written.

Quote
I knew a Marti...Heath was it? If memory serves me she slapped the living fuck out of Chriss Casslor (how ever ya spell his name)once. She slapped him when he got real close, she was on front row. He was stunned and further pushed her to slap him again if it made her feel better...so she did and knocked him way the fuck back...atta girl marti


I've heard that story before. God, what I wouldn't give to have been there!

The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason.
--Benjamin Franklin, American Founding Father, author, and inventor

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on April 02, 2006, 03:57:00 PM
The John mentioned here is not John"the undead" Meara just for the record.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 03, 2006, 11:00:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-02 09:07:00, Woof-a-Doof wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-04-02 05:20:00, Anonymous wrote:


"
Quote


On 2006-04-01 16:14:00, Eudora wrote:



"Well I knew both of you guys. And I'll vouch for you not being intentionally sadistic. I even believe you when you say you didn't "see" any abuse, John. When HRS asked me, I said no. I didn't consider it abuse, even when I got tackled and pinned to the concrete for a couple of hours then bounced around the inside of a timeout room by Marti, among others.







Not that I thought it was right when it happened to anybody. Just that I 'did the necessary things' or, more acurately, I knew what would happen when I refused to apologize to Group like that asshole, Chris Casselor ordered me to, so then it wouldn't be fair to turn around and bitch about it.







But I was just a kid then and coming out of roughly 12 years of having my brain scrambled and family disassembled by the Seed, culminating in 2 years of intensive mind fuck there in Sarasota. We're grown now. We've all had some time to think. Isn't it about damned time to own up?







You enjoyed it, Marnie? Ok, I can understand how you thought you were doing good then. You were pretty much raised in the program too. And you too were just a kid. But now?







Try this, Marnie. Go on down to your local high school. Volunteer as a teachers' aid. When you get a group of girls alone, trapped in study hall or something and start demanding that they tell the whole class the intimate details of the time their uncle tried to fuck them or the first time they snuck away to start finding out what sex is all about w/ their very first serious crush.







How would that work out for you do ya think? I think someone would march right out the door (something we couldn't do) and report you to the first sane adult they encountered and you'd be charged w/ multiple counts of lewd and lascivious act on a minor or corrupting minors or sexual assault or some such, as it should be.







Oh, what fun we had breaking the minds and spirits of little girls, pumping them for embarrasing intimate details to be bandied about in those shit talkin' sessions you had in the staff office, told to their parents and held over their heads indefinitely. Ah, the good old daze! I sure do miss them!  ::puke::







There's just so much more. Every minute of every day, what with all the snitch culture, fear of anyone discovering how fucking miserable you were and holding your feet to the fire till you confessed your private "bad thoughts" to the entire group so they could swarm like hungry pirhanas and tear apart, analyze, condemn and degrade your very soul while staff (you) mused over just which kind of torture to impose for the crime of being honest about that place being a fucking unending nightmare.







I'm glad I knew better than to ever tell you anything real or important.







See, to me, this kind of warped culture had been SOP since I was around 6. By the time I was 9 or so I knew it was fucked up and I was just going to have to play the game till I came of age and could book it to some other state and, finally, finally, be myself for once in my sorry assed life. Straight was, from my point of view, a monumental hassle, boring, a waste of time, depressing, infuriating, frustrating, but not eternal. Unlike most of the rest of you, I also knew very well that you get out eventually. It was a sanity saver. I couldn't have put it into words at the time. I tried a couple of times when I was hitchhiking around and someone would ask what was so bad that I was running from. I just couldn't really explain it.







What I didn't know is that you people didn't have that edge. Without that edge, it was more than just unpleasant in the moment. It was a very effective mindfuck. People were broken, damaged, even driven to suicide and other desperate measures slowly but slowly, by degrees, right in front of us. Worse? We all helped do it to them. We had to, at least to some degree, just to survive.







Worse still? When we had done our job effectively and someone really did finally have a total nervous breakdown, we all joined in (willingly or not) in pointing and clucking and damning them, "What a shame, what a shame! See, we knew that kid was fucked up and in need of help. What a cryin shame he didn't accept the help we so generously offered." And then they were shunned, after however long isolated from the real world and having had a scorched Earth campaign run on their lives.







Sorry as hell I didn't recognize back then that I had an unfair advantage. Because I didn't know that, I played my role, delivered my lines and just assumed it wasn't effecting anybody. I'll always be sorry as hell for that.







And you might think I'm being cruel or bitter or can't get over it and that I should just be polite and leave your fantasies intact. Why put you through it, right? What other motive could I possibly have except to inflict pain on you.







Well that's not my motive. I remember you well, Marnie. And you too, Speed Racer. Both of you are unusually kind, decent people, if a bit misguided. And I've often wondered how you made out. I'm sure everyone who knows you sees how kind you are and they probably trust your advice. So what happens when someone asks your advice in dealing with their troubled, rebellious or pot smoking kid?







If you don't know what the fuck you did, if you still persist in shading it in soft, glowing terms, except for the things those other, overtly sadistic staffers and inmates did, you'd probably help them find a TC for that kid, one based on the same fucked up model, but one that does a slightly better job of hiding the casualties. So your fantasies and your good intentions might very well result in some other kids being broken and demoralized, their lives trashed and their families and friends taken away from them of you ain't got the guts to face what we did in there.







All good intentions aside, that makes you very dangerous people. Those comforting lies can be very expensive to innocent others.







If you don't want to talk about the real dear, you'll have to make yourself a private forum where you can delete those ideas you don't care to entertain. If you're going to engage on this topic without censorship and control, sorry guys. Again, you're very nice people and I remember you both very fondly. But this is for real.



The will to learn is an intrinsic motive...The will to learn becomes a 'problem' only under specialized circumstances like those of a school where the curriculum is set, students confined, and a path fixed.
--Jerome S. Bruner, Harvard.




"







You ask for staffers to post here to gain insight.  If it doesn't fit into your perspective, you go off on a tirade.  Justified? Absolutely.  But, as I've said before, I am appalled at what I've read here and have thought quite a bit about those times, but I did not experience the same things either in the program or on staff.  Sorry to disappoint.  This is my perspective whether or not you belive me or think I'm a sadistic fuck.  





I'm sorry I don't remember you because it might help to understand things a little better.  By the way, I would never recommend any type of program like Straight for treatment of drug use.  "




Sorry for this long post...Ya know...Sunday morning...Jamacian Blue Mountain Coffee and Babbling Botanicals or Chatter Weed...at any rate...be forewarned...this is a long ass post



"Not all of us staff members knew of the mistreatment that was going on. I was on staff in Sarasota at the very beginning and did not see the things that have been shared here. "



Hmmm, sounds very familiar and certainly runs parallel to an early post (which I think you wrote) that said---



"I used to be a junior staff member in Sarasota and led raps to try and make people think and guess at what we were actually talking about. Little did most people know I had no idea what I the topic was either."



In both instances that I have quoted you claim to be completely oblivious to the world around you. You had no clue...YOU HAD NO CLUE??? Huh?



I was incarcerated before you John, and much of the more systematic/sadistic/systemic abuse took place after my time. But was is abuntantly clear to me...justa pee-on client...was that the ground work that paved the way for such abuses was set long before I even got there. You, came in after I did, and you could not have escaped what other people did not.



It amazes me, astounds me, that the

hate/fear/distrust/anger/deception/cruelty/humiliation/intimidation that a whole

group experienced (and remeber very clearly to this day) witnessed and participated on a daily basis...that you, somehow did not observe (much less experience) any of this. Before the extreme phyisical violence there was the subtle physical violence. And what preceded that was the blatant mental and emotional violence...which I have said, preceeded and or paved the way to the wholesale acceptance of physical abuse....and ya didnt experience or witness any of this???



Hate to use the phrase....But where in the fuck was your awareness...



I read and have read several times that you sincerly believe you helped people. There is an arrogance about this that just makes me seethe in rage. Such Arrogance! You as the "helper" (if you really helped) can have no earthly idea if

you helped or not. In the same breath, I think you may not know the damage you may have created. And still there is an effort to entertain the illusion that you are sheltered from your past...because you were just helping. I couldn't or rather I "didn't see the abuse because I was too busy "helping people". That sounds like Mother Theresa not admitting poverty & starvation because she was too busy tending to the leppers.



Giving you the benifit of the doubt...I will venture to say that perhaps (maybe) your use of the word "help" or "helping" is in and of itself misleading. Not knowing (remembering) you personally, I rely on what you have said and what others have said about you. My idea of you is that of a decent person. That you are kind and thoughtfull of yourself and the world around you. That being said...Think of this as a matter of semantics. You, back then...back in the day "extended your hand" to others (and called it "helping"). Your focus was on that "extended hand". What you have not noticed or have yet to relise is that Straight had your "other hand" and you had no idea then (or now apparently) what Straight was doing with the "other hand". Fertile ground for the "Messiah Complex" to take root.



All behavior at some point was accepted and promoted under the guise of "theraphy". Upon my arrival at the Milton Roy building there already was an air of intimidation about the staff, the groups responce was fear.  



Remember "Running"...being hauled around the preimiter of the building by the belt loop running as hard as they could push you....remember that? Recall the "Exercise

Raps" where individual puddles of sweat merged into one big puddle...remember people passing out and landing on thier faces...It was important that we had exercise in our "therapy" right? Remember that part (a huge part) of our "theraphy" was...um...CONFRONTATION. On the surface, confrontation sounds logical and so it

was a justified means of "treatment". John, you never got stood up and raked over the coals? Ok, so ya didnt get slammed to the floor, thrown into time out, have a staff member hump your ass while 5-6 people held ya down and 6-7 stood and

watched...BUt I know you had to have been "stood up" and you felt defensless as "we" systematically took you appart...How many times had you sat in group...terrified of being stood up....TERRIFIED. No one learns from a teacher that employs terroistic measures...I think it was you who said that you had no idea what

you were talking about while leading the groups...and yet it was justified "theraphy"...Dude, thats pretty fucked up right there. While you had no idea what

you were talking about (which you admitted) and their were kids infront of you terrified....TERRIFIED.



Then consider our "leadership"...Forever it seemed Helen Peterman was the heart and soul of the program...oh yeah Jim Hartz to. But Mz Pete was in control...we knew it...staff knew it...parents knew it. It sucked. It really sucked bad. There seemed no end. Then somewhere along the line someone relized there were no

licensed professionals associated with the program.



Enter George Ross...a baffoon, really....seriously, a baffoon. I was on my second third phase about that time...just entering the 4th phase when George made his

presence. The whole rational self anaylisis thing brought about a hyper-awreness of

ourselves and our surroundings. To further control a continually unsettled group this

crap was used increasingly against each other in groups.



Together this combination of the intimidation and fear that Helen brought to the table with George Ross's baffonish intellect where simply a breeding ground once Miller Newton came into the picture. Miller brought cruelty (in the name of

theraphy) to a whole new level. Thank god he was only there for last months of my incarceration in Straight.



My point is that Straight got progressively worse and to add insult, it was done in the

name of "theraphy". Conditions that staff brought about and which we allowed thru

our own compliance. Because we were compliant and acting participants (in some way shape or form) and the mindset we were to employ made it easy for the likes of Miller Newton to charm and destroy. Any cult worth it's salt has that...a

charismatic leader. And each of our "leaders" were charismatic...cept George.



As I said, I was a pee-on client...and I was there same time as you were. I didn't suffer at your hands....no, thats not the point. But you were there, you suffered because of staff...I know ya did...and you went on to the same group that inflicted the suffering. And in your best honesty you say " I am appalled at what I've read here and have thought quite a bit about those times, but I did not experience the

same things either in the program or on staff." Ok, maybe...I cant relate to Atlanta, Orlando, Sarasota or any other program in another location long long after I was

there.



But dude...I know what it was like when I got there and I know what the group was like when you got there. We made it possible for the horrors that you read on this site. The very least I can do is to not disrespect any of those who were locked up long after I was gone. I do it very simply, I discuss my experience. Spending energy to write about what I did not experience is not only a waste of time but

antagonises and disrespects those who have. And as I have said, it comes across as most arrogant...as if implying it never happened.



This denial, this illusion that Straight was a good thing is so easy to pop thru...to

those who experienced it. Example, this year after 27 years I got together with a

cousin, who also went thru Straight...long after I did. In our first change to talk, at

some point in the conversation he suddenly blurted out "Well, just gotta apply the

first step I guess"...I was stunned! I asked him, "Do you really believe what you just said...could you show me an example of how that would help?" He lowered his head and his voice and said humbly, "No". By that point it was like not talking about the white elephant in the room and I couldnt stand it, so I made another reference to Straight and he got real firm and said, "It's not something I talk about!" to which I replied....Dude, your my cousin, my blood, and you experienced what I did and worse...this IS the time to talk about it. Within minutes he began a one way conversation about his experience in Straight and the time following.



It amazed he and I both that he was some what still a Straight supporter and he rang the very same bell that you do...it helped me and I helped others...the moment of dis-illuisionment was painfull for my cousin, which seemed odd

because dis-illusion was suppossed to be a good thing. He let go of years of bullshit, finally he was with someone he could say exactly how he felt with no reprisal he would have surely gotten from his immediate family if he spoke honestly about his experience at Straight.





BTW: Marnie and Marti...two different people right?



I knew a Marti...Heath was it? If memory serves me she slapped the living fuck out of Chriss Casslor (how ever ya spell his name)once. She slapped him when he got real close, she was on front row. He was stunned and further pushed her to slap him again if it made her feel better...so she did and knocked him way the fuck back...atta girl marti

"

I greatly appreciate your post.  It has made me think in more detail and some of the things you point out are true.  Look, I was a fucked up misguided kid with a dysfunctional family situation on a path to nowhere when I entered Straight.  Yes, I was stood up in group and humiliated like the rest.  I didn't like it one bit, but, I took it as a way to better myself.  I was led to see how my life was (a good athlete and straight "A" student) prior to getting into drugs and the divorce of my parents and how quickly this progressed.  I was barely 12 when I entered the program.  I took what was thrown at me as away to get back that life I had.  Would I have grown out of this?  I don?t know and I don?t know if anyone could say.  Call this naive (as Ginger has in the past) but I needed stability and direction and I got my shit together.  I was excited about getting back to being a kid again and I wanted to help others so I joined staff (again naive, I suppose).  I never deliberately treated people poorly or in anyway physically hurt anyone.  Your analogy of the outstretched hand is very effective.  By association with the staff I would have to admit that I mistreated people by not seeing what was going on and doing something about it. However, it was never my intention to do so.  I guess when I say I still believe I helped people I'm really speaking about my intentions.  There is no way to prove or disprove whether or not I helped anyone.  Based on what is said here nobody was ever helped.  I simply do not believe that because I know I was personally.

You have given me additional insight and I greatly appreciate it.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 03, 2006, 12:44:00 PM
I have never said I enjoyed anything someone else must be using my name

marnie
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 03, 2006, 12:55:00 PM
plz pick an ID then. thank you.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on April 05, 2006, 05:20:00 PM
Again for the record I thought you Marnie were  kind-hearted,Amy used to call me "the Worm".I ran across her in later life.It was Ugly.I made sure all her neighbors in Venice knew what she was,My old Heroin/dilaudid spot was on the same street she and MIke lived on.I have no pity on her,nor (oddly)any animosity,
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 05, 2006, 09:21:00 PM
Quote

On 2006-04-01 16:14:00, Eudora wrote:

"Well I knew both of you guys. And I'll vouch for you not being intentionally sadistic. I even believe you when you say you didn't "see" any abuse, John. When HRS asked me, I said no. I didn't consider it abuse, even when I got tackled and pinned to the concrete for a couple of hours then bounced around the inside of a timeout room by Marti, among others.



Not that I thought it was right when it happened to anybody. Just that I 'did the necessary things' or, more acurately, I knew what would happen when I refused to apologize to Group like that asshole, Chris Casselor ordered me to, so then it wouldn't be fair to turn around and bitch about it.



But I was just a kid then and coming out of roughly 12 years of having my brain scrambled and family disassembled by the Seed, culminating in 2 years of intensive mind fuck there in Sarasota. We're grown now. We've all had some time to think. Isn't it about damned time to own up?



You enjoyed it, Marnie? Ok, I can understand how you thought you were doing good then. You were pretty much raised in the program too. And you too were just a kid. But now?



Try this, Marnie. Go on down to your local high school. Volunteer as a teachers' aid. When you get a group of girls alone, trapped in study hall or something and start demanding that they tell the whole class the intimate details of the time their uncle tried to fuck them or the first time they snuck away to start finding out what sex is all about w/ their very first serious crush.



How would that work out for you do ya think? I think someone would march right out the door (something we couldn't do) and report you to the first sane adult they encountered and you'd be charged w/ multiple counts of lewd and lascivious act on a minor or corrupting minors or sexual assault or some such, as it should be.



Oh, what fun we had breaking the minds and spirits of little girls, pumping them for embarrasing intimate details to be bandied about in those shit talkin' sessions you had in the staff office, told to their parents and held over their heads indefinitely. Ah, the good old daze! I sure do miss them!  :nworthy:  :nworthy:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on April 13, 2006, 06:23:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-03 09:44:00, Anonymous wrote:

"I have never said I enjoyed anything someone else must be using my name



marnie"

This wasn't you??

Quote
On 2006-04-01 12:39:00, Anonymous wrote:

I remember loving to lead girls rap because for the most part it was intimate and I could be myself without having to "show what you had" as a staff member - egos led most bad staff members (false egos).

I remember being absolutely mortified as we cajoled and pressured girls to speak of themselves in the most harsh terms, especially in relation to sex. Worse than having to hear it and watch as some girls were brought to tears and still the probing went on was that we all had to pretend nothing horrible was going on, that we all approved, even would take part if given the dearly cherished chance to "relate".

I get that you didn't see what was wrong with that at the time. I got it full on in the face like a Mack truck the moment after chewed out Bobby R. for being defiant and then realized the poor kid wasn't capable of looking at the speaker, standing up straight (or at all w/o assistance) or complying w/ any other directive.

I realized that there was a whole bitch of a lot going on around me, even that I was directly involved in doing, that I just wasn't seeing. After awhile, even the horrible comes to seem normal.

But now?

And it's not such a small issue. That's how it happened in Nazi Germany, too. On the night the synagogs burned, many a Nazi party member or affiliate said "Mein Gott, was nächst, die Katrina Kirche?" Over a very short time, these same people came to accept much worse than church burning.

Quote
I regret that I stood by at times and let cruel things happen - but I was like a kid in group as well - shocked that things could occur and powerless to do much. so many times I wanted to run and hide.

I remember when parents would come and pull their kids out of the program, even on staff, I wish that kid was me. strange huh? I did like knowing so many good people. but the downside outweighed the good - FOR SURE!!!!!!!!


No, not strange at all. I get that too. Why do you think I didn't turn down the 'offer' to take pre-training? I guess I'm just surprised that you haven't thought this stuff over in all these years.

But there's a lot I don't understand and I really would like to know. Why was I untouchable, for example? I round housed Kim S. right onto the deck, expecting to get taken down. Actually, I just couln't keep to my feet anymore and I figured the next girl to shove me to get me to run would push me over, then I'd fall, then I'd get 'restrained' or forcably exercised, so I just wanted to get in one good shot before that happened.

Nothing at all against Kim. In fact she's about the last one I wanted to hurt. She was just the unlucky "next bitch to come along and shove me". So I slugged her hard, then kept walking, haughed up a lugy in the fake rubber tree plant at the back of the room, and waited for the take-down. It never came. I don't think group even confronted me.

I just don't understand why and that bugs me. What went on behind the scenes? How did you guys arrive at a decision to do what you did to Bobby and treat me entirely differently. Survivor's guilt on my part? Maybe, but more than that. I want to understand what really happened, fill in the huge gaping blanks that I've had to fill in with gueswork because the topic has been verboten in my family since long before my intake day.

I don't want to yell at you or make you feel guilty or fight with you. I just want to know wtf happened back there.

sunday school: A prison in which children do penance for the evil conscience of their parents.
--H. L. Mencken, American publisher

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 13, 2006, 12:01:00 PM
Ginger - I don't really know what your asking - your words are very confusing - Jumbled thoughts



Marnie
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 13, 2006, 12:03:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-13 03:23:00, Eudora wrote:


I remember being absolutely mortified as we cajoled and pressured girls to speak of themselves in the most harsh terms, especially in relation to sex. Worse than having to hear it and watch as some girls were brought to tears and still the probing went on was that we all had to pretend nothing horrible was going on, that we all approved, even would take part if given the dearly cherished chance to "relate".



I get that you didn't see what was wrong with that at the time. I got it full on in the face like a Mack truck the moment after chewed out Bobby R. for being defiant and then realized the poor kid wasn't capable of looking at the speaker, standing up straight (or at all w/o assistance) or complying w/ any other directive.



I realized that there was a whole bitch of a lot going on around me, even that I was directly involved in doing, that I just wasn't seeing. After awhile, even the horrible comes to seem normal.


Is this really that difficult to grasp?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 13, 2006, 12:48:00 PM
Ginger - Who is bobby? I'm confused - your words are confusing words!


 - When I talked of Girls rap - it was not what you were talking about - I just remember feeling close to the girls when I was with them  - I never talked of sex - I wanted to be accepted -  being on staff was a joke for me - I needed to know somehow I wasn't a freak - and at times girls rap was my escape - I did not agree with anything straight did - but I felt like I was trapped like everyone else whether you believe it or not - even staff was trapped - I was terrified to quit - I was terrifed of being put on a refresher or being a target of the shit staff - I was also a victim whether you believe that or not - It certainly was not one sided - I was hurt bad by straight - I feel the effect to this day

marnie
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 13, 2006, 12:51:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-13 09:48:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Ginger - Who is bobby?

I think she's referring to Bobby Reugles (sp?)





Quote
- When I talked of Girls rap - it was not what you were talking about - I just remember feeling close to the girls when I was with them  - I never talked of sex - I wanted to be accepted -  being on staff was a joke for me - I needed to know somehow I wasn't a freak - and at times girls rap was my escape -

In your opinion is Ginger's description of girls' rap accurate?


Quote
I did not agree with anything straight did - but I felt like I was trapped like everyone else whether you believe it or not - even staff was trapped - I was terrified to quit - I was terrifed of being put on a refresher or being a target of the shit staff - I was also a victim whether you believe that or not - It certainly was not one sided - I was hurt bad by straight - I feel the effect to this day



marnie"


We all were.  Those of us who did not go on staff have some deep seeded feelings about those who did and had control over us.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 13, 2006, 01:03:00 PM
OH YES - The shit staff were cruel 24/7 - Yes Ginger's thoughts on girls rap was accurate. -

I just refused to be apart of that abuse. - I had to sit back and watch as we all did - I was controlled as were others - I was 17 & 18 years old on jr & Sr. staff.... I did not have a clue as to how to stand up and fight for myself or others! I just tried to go on unnoticed and I remember everyday trying to think of anyway I could to leave without suspicision or notice.  I finally got the opportunity to move out of state and that was my way off staff - pretty pathetic that i could not just say i wanted to leave out of fear of notice and that someone would see thru me and come down on me (even on sr. staff)
total FEAR

Marnie
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on April 13, 2006, 04:14:00 PM
No no, not at all! Let me tell you about a couple of the worst days. They weren't the couple of days I got roughed up. It was actually sort of liberating to just say what I really thought in there for once.

No, the demoralizing moments were when of a different nature. When staff came in and announce the formation of the 7th step society. Fuck! That changed my plans. It was hard to pull a face right then and pretend I was all happy and thankful about it. Then there was the day they brought my best childhood friend in by the back of the pants. Hadn't seen him in a year. He had grown 2 feet! I was so fucking pissed off to see him, and scared he'd blame me, more scared he was right cause I might have rambled off some damning statement about him in one of those endless raps. I always protected him before. He was younger than me and like a little brother. And I couldn't protect him then. Was afraid even to look at him cause we'd both get in trouble. Couldn't send him a message, nothing. Fuck!

Then there was the day they "offered" me the high honor or taking the special pretraining course. That sucked! I had to speak and be fucking convincing, too. Yeah, I know just exactly what you mean by trapped!

I don't know if you were there when we marathoned Bobby. I think they had my little 'brother', Steve (who by then was not so little, like 6'4" or so and thick as a lumberjack) do a whole lot of the ass kicking. That kid, I always had to step in and fight if need be. Not that he was scared of taking a blow, he wasn't. We played pretty rough. He was the kind of kid that if he accidentally hurt someone throwing a ball too hard or tackling them to hard, HE would get upset!

I blocked it all, even when it was happening, even when I was the one fucking w/ people. I turned myself to stone and figured I was just waiting it out. Didn't know it was effecting me or anyone else. After awhile, it didn't even seem that bad.

But back to Bobby. He wasn't the only one to get marathoned for days on end. He wasn't the only one broken beyond lucidity, driven catatonic or half ferral. For most of that time, I thought I never got into big trouble because I obeyed the rules and talked the talk. Only when I ran did I get confronted, set back or any other overt sanctions that stand out in my mind. But this doesn't make sense at all, when you consider that I fucking slugged somebody for enforcing the rules, just like she had to do to keep her own ass out of the sling and, instead of getting the same treatment Bobby did or Kim C (short little pale skinned gal, always reminded me of the Little Prince) or Sammie or Holly G or so many others who got the shit kicked out of them on a regular basis.

Kim C. I remember her for another reason, too. She taught me more about that place in one instant than I think I figured out in the 10 years leading up to that moment. She was helping to 'restrain' me, though I had refused to resist at all, whatever; wouldn't give that fucker Chris Casselor the satisfaction of saying "See? I knew you had deep aner in you!" Fuck him! lol So Kim did just what she thought she was supposed to do because it had been done so many times to her. She covered my nose and mouth so I'd fight. I bit her. She screamed "Ow! Stupid bitch!" Robin P came over, asked her what was up, she told her.

Then Robin did something extremely kind and extremely cruel all at the same time and she had no real better choice that I can see. She asked me what happened. I told her. Calmly. I just needed to breathe and that's the only way I could get Kim's hand off of my mouth and nose. Robin gave Kim the stink eye and sent her back to group. That's when I learned something terrifying. The look on Kim's face was one of total shock, disoriented dissilusionment. That was the last thing she expected, she clearly thought she was doing just what she was supposed to do. She had just made 2nd phase after some ungodly long and violent first phase.

What do you make of that? Do you think Robin also didn't know, like I didn't know, that the kid being restrained usually wasn't actually instigating any damned thing? Or were you guys working together (clicking lol) to change things?

I guess what I'm asking is just this. What really went on in the staff office? How would you guys arrive at a decision to keep a kid in timeout for another day or to ignore my knocking a girl out for no good fucking reason? Was I being groomed for staff all along? Or was that "offer" just a another way to try and demoralize me by extending my stay? What did you make of it when I had walking pnuemonia from April `81 till whenever I made 5th phase and finally screwed up the nerve to ask for a day off? I wound up spending two full days doing nothing but sleeping in that timeout room at the top of the stairs. I know a lot of other kids went w/o medical care for various things too. Did you ever know? Or were you sincerely convinced that they were faking to get attention or to escape having to look at themselves?

What about Chris? What about Richard Knowles and Charles Pendergrast? What about Pete Mitchel? He seemed to me like a really gentle, kind but thoroughly brainwashed kid.

Honestly, I don't know if this conversation can go much further, or if you really understand what I'm saying. There's actually a whole lot more that I'd like to know but I can't even ask you publicly w/o giving clues to your private history that I don't know if you want to hang out there. And, believe it or not, even though I am just as hostile to the Program as anyone might imagine, I wouldn't do that to anyone, even if I didn't like them unless we're talking someone like Virgil who, in my opinion, is damned for all time anyway.

That's why I keep trying to contact you privately. I really would apreciate it, Marnie, if you would contact me. Here's my info: http://fornits.com/contact.htm (http://fornits.com/contact.htm)

I'll call on my dime whenever it works for you if you'll give me your number.

Thanks for reading.

I believe that when I die I shall rot, and nothing of my ego will survive. I am not young, and I love life. But I should scorn to shiver with terror at the thought of annihilation. Happiness is none the less true happiness because it must come to an end, nor do thought and love lose their value because they are not everlasting.
--Bertrand Russell, British philosopher, educator, mathemetician, and social critic

Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 26, 2006, 04:08:00 AM
I knew both you and your sister.You both went to Bogie.My name is Steve.Day 1 for me was in the Rahall Building and you and Lori were both on refreshers.I remember everything.12 hour days for 17 months pretty much sums up everything.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 26, 2006, 04:32:00 AM
Woof-a-doof,the red-headed seedling from Sarasota fired because he wasn't a Seed graduate,had a male lover and probably a dozen other reasons according to rumor was Bob Gebhardt.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 26, 2006, 04:41:00 AM
Marnie,you and I sort of became friends after I finished.I'm not so keen on revealing myself yet,but I'll give you a hint,I was born one day before you were.For the record,you,your sister,and even your Mom, I remember as decent people.I,as a way of keeping my sanity,refuse to think of myself as a victim.Things,some stranger than others,happen and we only have one choice,and that is to deal with it.I'll really make things easy,Mike Sherman and I attended CHS together and even had a class together.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 26, 2006, 04:57:00 AM
Winston Pitman is currently married and living in Maine.He's a retired MCPO from the US Navy.Bryan,"Lone Biker Dude",R.,we knew each other well.You graduated before my intake but I hung out with Dan C,your brother and Chris.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on April 26, 2006, 05:47:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-26 01:32:00, Sam Kinison wrote:

"Woof-a-doof,the red-headed seedling from Sarasota fired because he wasn't a Seed graduate,had a male lover and probably a dozen other reasons according to rumor was Bob Gebhardt."


Yup....thats the guy!...This Lori chick, wasn't she eventually on staff, has a few broters lived just the otherside of Boca Ciega Highschool.

Was trying to remember another set of brothers and sister. They alwent to Boggie also, a Shawn something, he had a brother, tall and geeky looking and a sister that was a lil on the portly side. I rember Shawn from school (I went to Boogie before Straight) he was the epitome of a Straightling....before I went to Straight, he was the one that seemed to sum up what Straight was all about and what it produced...robots.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 26, 2006, 09:12:00 AM
It's good to hear Winston is doing well.  I lived with him and his family during my stay in the program.  Know about his brother, Michael?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 26, 2006, 12:23:00 PM
Different Lori(actually Lorie).The Lorie on staff completed her phases(1-4)in 4 1/2 months.Last I heard about her was that she was married and living in Orlando.Lori Carey never completed the program.The other family(Jim,Sean,and Heather),I only know the whereabouts of Jimmy.He's in Dunnellon,teaching his son how to play baseball.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 26, 2006, 12:27:00 PM
Their Dad is selling Real Estate in Citrus County these days.His name is Charlie Pitman and I would feel better if you would contact him directly about Winston or Michael.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 26, 2006, 01:38:00 PM
OK.  Thank you.  Do you know the realitor he works for?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 26, 2006, 04:12:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-26 01:57:00, Sam Kinison wrote:

"Winston Pitman is currently married and living in Maine.He's a retired MCPO from the US Navy.Bryan,"Lone Biker Dude",R.,we knew each other well.You graduated before my intake but I hung out with Dan C,your brother and Chris."


I'd like to get in touch with Winston.  We hung out a lot when we were in and newly out of the program.  Has he found fornits yet?
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 27, 2006, 02:29:00 AM
Charlie Pitman is working for Avanzini Realty in Crystal River,last I heard
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 27, 2006, 07:45:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-26 23:29:00, Sam Kinison wrote:

"Charlie Pitman is working for Avanzini Realty in Crystal River,last I heard"


He does not have an active license in Florida at this time.   Checked the Florida Division of Real Estate webpage.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 28, 2006, 01:20:00 AM
You might check Winston C. Pitman.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 28, 2006, 07:29:00 AM
Quote
On 2006-04-27 22:20:00, Sam Kinison wrote:

"You might check Winston C. Pitman."


10-4,good buddy; I will.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on April 28, 2006, 01:32:00 PM
Quote
On 2006-04-28 04:29:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote

On 2006-04-27 22:20:00, Sam Kinison wrote:


"You might check Winston C. Pitman."




10-4,good buddy; I will."


nope, not a pitman to be found.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on April 28, 2006, 01:56:00 PM
He was living in Citrus Hills six months ago.He told me he was still selling R.E.I don´t know what else to say. :question:
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on October 17, 2006, 07:57:31 PM
Jim, Sean, and Heather.  I remember Jim was real tall and looked sorta like the guy who played "Trapper" in the early years of M*A*S*H*  and the younger brother looked like "Little Joe" from Bonanza.  Jim loved getting in scuffles, and was johnny -on-the -spot for split attempts and shit.  I always thought Sean's name was Mike, but then maybe I am wrong.  He was a sadistic asshole.  He is the first person that I walked into that red pipe that came down from the ceiling at Milton Roy.

As for Heather, who had the most annoying whiny squealing voice in the entire girls side, you aint gonna believe this......................
She is right here, right now, because this is where she works, at the main Library here in St. Pete.  She is a librarian for christ's sakes!
I don't know about her brothers though.  I must have walked past her a million times and then there was this one day she got bitchy with a couple of boys that were making noise and DAMN!!  I heard that whine and it all clicked into place.
Title: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on October 17, 2006, 07:59:03 PM
Jim, Sean, and Heather.  I remember Jim was real tall and looked sorta like the guy who played "Trapper" in the early years of M*A*S*H*  and the younger brother looked like "Little Joe" from Bonanza.  Jim loved getting in scuffles, and was johnny -on-the -spot for split attempts and shit.  I always thought Sean's name was Mike, but then maybe I am wrong.  He was a sadistic asshole.  He is the first person that I walked into that red pipe that came down from the ceiling at Milton Roy.

As for Heather, who had the most annoying whiny squealing voice in the entire girls side, you aint gonna believe this......................
She is right here, right now, because this is where she works, at the main Library here in St. Pete.  She is a librarian for christ's sakes!
I don't know about her brothers though.  I must have walked past her a million times and then there was this one day she got bitchy with a couple of boys that were making noise and DAMN!!  I heard that whine and it all clicked into place.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on February 02, 2008, 06:13:04 PM
Quote from: "anonstpete"
I just stumbled onto this thread and hope its still alive. I was in the Morgan bldg from 5-79 to 5-80. Anybody remember Dorothy Sp?.

The names of staff I've read in the posts here bring back stirring memories - most of which I want to forget, but I can't stop reading because I remember the faces of the group so well.

Eric M.

I was incarcerated during that same time period. A lil before and a lil after actually. I read your responce some time back and and have thought....no, I don't recall a Dorothy. I also understand the fascination with reading and rereading the pages, I think we can all relate to that. If ya can give a description of "Dorothy" and perhaps if there are any memorable instances, it may stir a memory.

Eric, did you have blond hair when at Straight Inc?

Woof
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 02, 2008, 06:27:50 PM
Quote from: "Woof-a-Doof"
I was incarcerated during that same time period. A lil before and a lil after actually. I read your responce some time back and and have thought....no, I don't recall a Dorothy. I also understand the fascination with reading and rereading the pages, I think we can all relate to that. If ya can give a description of "Dorothy" and perhaps if there are any memorable instances, it may stir a memory.

Eric, did you have blond hair when at Straight Inc?

Woof

No - my hair was brown. Tall - thin. My time there was pretty uneventful compared to most. I went to Clearwater High as well. The only think memorable about Dorothy is that she spoke with a very high pitched voice in group - which I can't explain - because that was not her normal voice.

I have some small memory of 85day jerk as well.

Eric
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on February 14, 2008, 01:42:43 AM
Eric Merkle?  That just popped into my head.  Were you friends with Mark Evans and some of them dudes from the West Largo/Seminole area and went on to mess around with a garage band around 1982?  Were you a part of the crowd that attended Monday Nite Live at First Baptist of Indian Rocks?  Just trying to connect a name with a very blurry face.  These names also popped into my head.  Alan Ober, Brian Marble, Bob Brusseau, George Edwards and Chuck Haig. 

Bob Brusseau had a bitchin car, but I can't remember what it was.  I think it was a Chevelle, or a souped up Nova, but he could drive that thing better than NASCAR along Gulf Boulevard when it was crowded on a Friday Night.  Jesus, back in them days, you could cruise the Gulf Beaches from Pass-a-Grille to the tip of Clearwater and back for less than 5 bucks worth of gas.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 14, 2008, 09:14:44 PM
You have the right Eric - but I don't recall any of those names. I did live in Clearwater - but never was in a band.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on February 15, 2008, 01:11:44 PM
holy shit, alan ober,hadnt thought of him in years,didnt he live in largo?
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on February 17, 2008, 02:16:54 AM
There was also Karen Ubanks.  She started dating Rick Humbert and they both faded from the scene.  They made a good couple at least.  There was also Kathy Morrison, Lisa Emmi, Bonnie Caraway, Chris Marsden, and one chick that just flat out disappeared real spooky like, Karen Widener, maybe she moved or something.

Please forgive me and try not to take offense, but when the names come I gotta post them or they just slip back into the fog.  There is a strange sense of hurt that I was actually a friend to people that I honestly have no recollection of at all.  I was going through so much in those days (we all were) and to keep up the act and keep from burning the fucking house down and just hitting the road to an uncertain future, I had to constantly bury things including memories of people.  Like this Dorothy girl, for instance, I remember she was a pet favorite of Dr. Ross for one reason or another in the RSA raps.  There was also this girl from Tampa that lived near Eisenhower and I took her, Mark Evans and Bonnie Caraway to Disney World and spent like a 16 hour day with them, and I can't remember her name for the life of me.  I was eighteen at the time, but everyone else was a minor so I was hauling ass to get them home before 4 am when the parents got up for work and wound up with a speeding ticket.  I was clocked doing 118 on I-4 and the cop magically reduced the speed to 68mph once we told him about Straight.  The tentacles of the program even reached as far as Haines City back in them days.

I guess that's enough for now..........
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 18, 2008, 12:53:17 AM
Yes - I have the same memories popping in and out of my head. I just stumbled onto this forum by accident. Saw a link from another article when I was reading some news of an unrelated topic.

Karen and I were good friends before Straight, and somewhat afterwards. Dorothy and I knew each other before, she lived down the street, and got very close afterwards.

I knew the father of the Monjello girls - but forget there names now ............ He had an auto body shop.

And Dallas Noe on the guitar - phewwwwwwwwww

My most vivid memory is of April Deshaun - took a crap in a bag in the middle of the night, stuffed it in a drawer and SPLIT out of the house !!! Crazy stuff............

Then were was Anthony Nicocia - the Tropicana guy. I was a newcomer at this house in Sarasota. SWEEEEETTTTT. Of course his 60's Corvette or something was hidden away in the garage- but you could just get a peek of it as we drove by sometimes. Fortunately I moved to another house in St Pete, days before the Skyway fell down.

I also ran into Liz Hamilton a few years afterwards. We worked together for a few months.

Now if I only had a copy of the morning role call. That would cement the memories I have - the good ones of some of the nice people I met there.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 18, 2008, 04:15:56 AM
Quote from: "anonstpete"
Yes - I have the same memories popping in and out of my head. I just stumbled onto this forum by accident. Saw a link from another article when I was reading some news of an unrelated topic.

Karen and I were good friends before Straight, and somewhat afterwards. Dorothy and I knew each other before, she lived down the street, and got very close afterwards.

I knew the father of the Monjello girls - but forget there names now ............ He had an auto body shop.

And Dallas Noe on the guitar - phewwwwwwwwww

My most vivid memory is of April Deshaun - took a crap in a bag in the middle of the night, stuffed it in a drawer and SPLIT out of the house !!! Crazy stuff............

Then were was Anthony Nicocia - the Tropicana guy. I was a newcomer at this house in Sarasota. SWEEEEETTTTT. Of course his 60's Corvette or something was hidden away in the garage- but you could just get a peek of it as we drove by sometimes. Fortunately I moved to another house in St Pete, days before the Skyway fell down.

I also ran into Liz Hamilton a few years afterwards. We worked together for a few months.

Now if I only had a copy of the morning role call. That would cement the memories I have - the good ones of some of the nice people I met there.


Oh man, as soon as I read what you wrote about Dallas Noe playing the guitar..a flood of memories about her came back. We were tight for quite a while after straight. Sadly, she died of cancer about 2 or 3 years ago but she played her music right up until then.

I was a newcomer in the Deshaun household and it was horrible. Bible thumping Dad saw it as his duty to beat his daughters with his leather belt on a regular basis. He also did the 60 second shower routine which left everyone of us going to bed with shampoo and soap still all over us.
When staff started noticing that the girls living at that house were all covered in a rash due to not being able to rinse that shit off for a solid week, they pulled all the newcomers from their house. I remember looking over at April and her sisters after that and thinking " well, we got out of that house...but what about THEM?"
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 18, 2008, 05:41:50 PM
Wow - sorry to hear about Dallas.

Glad you could join our discussion. What is your first name ?
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on February 20, 2008, 02:22:30 AM
Dominic Mongello was the father of "Big Gina" and "Little Gina."  They were stepsisters.  Big Gina had real curly dark hair, freckles and blue eyes and looked like an Italian 'Joanie' from Happy Days.  Little Gina was Gina Denares and had a bigger nose, dark eyes, and straight up Italian and skinny.  There was an older guy who's name was Dan Lee I think who came into the program from jail with his jaw wired shut from being broken in a jailhouse fight.  He started a window tinting business and did pretty good after the program.  He was dating Gina M. for a while, and was pretty close to Dominic.  Mr. Mongello was a really great parent who really tried to get involved and was a big part of alot of picnics and stuff.  Last time I saw him was at a big event we had down at Taylor Park in Largo.  Shortly after that event is when they had the illfated "Parents 7 Stepper Rap" at the Gandy building and Kathy Winn and her dad were damn near about to go at it with a couple of black fold up chairs.  Newton and his goons began to take over, Kathy Winn wound up on front row, and several of us 'oldcomers' were terminated and/or given trespass warnings for the most ridiculous of reasons.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on February 21, 2008, 02:40:15 PM
amazing.......I never knew about Dallas Noe,I remember the deshon house being fucked up but not why,what kinda shit were people banned for?????????
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on February 22, 2008, 08:05:45 PM
Quote from: "anonstpete"
Then were was Anthony Nicocia - the Tropicana guy. I was a newcomer at this house in Sarasota. SWEEEEETTTTT. Of course his 60's Corvette or something was hidden away in the garage- but you could just get a peek of it as we drove by sometimes. Fortunately I moved to another house in St Pete, days before the Skyway fell down.

Anthony was my newcomer for the first several weeks of his tenure of incarceration at Straight Inc. What a culture shock it was for him. My family lived well, we had a small lil place on St. Pete Beach…nice, but certainly not what he was accustomed to. (you remember Seamus, 85DJ…don’t ya?) We teased the hell out of him simply because of his wealth.

The car, (to the best of my memory,) was a 1963 Mercedes Coupe (2 Door, Powder Blue…convertible) 1963 was significant, because that was the year he was born…and Powder Blue…. because he was born a boy.

His wealth aside, he was good people. Yeah, he was a brat, a rich spoiled brat… but still at the end of the day he was good person. Who I believe/think, like myself and many many others….didn’t belong there. (I feel as if I am treading thin ice here) Absolutely, NO ONE deserved to be there…No One deserved to be “warehoused” there. Anthony like myself simply had no street smarts. I think Anthony more than myself was singled out because of his families $$$. And he might have been a bit quirky…but damn, well all were just teenagers…. kids.

But good did come from Anthony’s family’s involvement. Tropicana dumped 1000’s of gallons of Orange Juice on Straight Inc. There was one requirement or catch, refrigeration and freezers. The only freezers we had at the time held the frozen Peanut Butter and Jelly sandwiches, which we called “swimmers”. I think the only other source of protein we received from Straight, or closer to the truth Parents donated to Straight. I don’t remember her name, but her father owned a meat packing plant. We had “donated” bologna…

Not just any ordinary bologna, but scraps. If it fell of the conveyer belt, we ate it. The slicer sometimes cut the meat into chunks and the wedged bologna was prized. And then the 2-3 cubes of ice in the milk to cap it off, and of course it was expected that we be grateful for anything we got. In fact I remember my own mom going to get the buns, rejected by Burger King and back to the baker… and she took them to the building.

So on buns, without sesame seeds and chunks wedged between them, they were passed down the rows. Condiments? Like ketchup, mustard or mayo? Nah…didn’t happen…wasn’t an option. During this assault on the senses “RULES” were being shouted…..

Yeah Anthony had a “Culture Shock”…We all had that “Culture Shock” ( I know I damn sure did) and that more than likely…in most possibility, no…..probability Anthony has been profoundly affected…or is it effected…

Either way…

It’s fascinating to see names. Of course, there is an immediate duplicity of “shouldn’t do that”….but damn, it’s part of human nature to wanna know “what became of_______?” or “Wonder what ever happened to____?”

Sometimes, I can recall the name, but not the information I read. Not that it’s false….I simply don’t recall, that kinda bums me out at times. It’s as if “I should know” but fact is, I simply don’t. There is however an opposite to that coin. I recall information and not the name…seems I shouldn’t know… but I do. That is probably most alarming and distressing to me.

I recall a guy mysteriously vanished…nothing was said….but rumor mill was that he had molested a child. Did it actually happen? I dunno… I heard that a guy made a dildo in wood shop at Dixie-Hollins. Nothing was said. Did it happen? I dunno. There was a guy we called the open meeting whacker, real name was Bill P*alimino…he also was my new comer…that incident actually happened, he wrote about it in his ”MI”.

A female name that comes to mind now and again is Debby or Deborah (last name escapes me at the moment) She was first girl I ever actually kissed or “made out” with. I had graduated at the time, so had she. We sat in front of her house getting busy…..it was 5:30am when I got home. My mom had read most of my MI’s and my journals…..She wigged the fuck out, contacted every law enforcement agency in tri county area, including FHP….She thought I Was gonna commit suicide…. The happiest night….the best night I had ever had was now reduced to shit. I was never allowed back to see Debby.

My “first” girlfriend (the kind ya never forget) was a Straightling. She actually wanted me to marry her….so I freaked out. I saw an advertisement for the submarine corp and figured, Straight, my parents or Mar*cine would never find me. I still speak with her mother from time to time. We don’t see eye to eye on many things, but she is still good to me and I do for her what I can.

Whoa, this response has gotten long, even for my standards…..Nuff said for now!

In Peace
Woof

   
OBTW...the Skyway fell after I graduated
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 22, 2008, 08:26:02 PM
so what happened to marcine?
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on February 23, 2008, 07:52:46 AM
Quote from: "old man from st pete"
so what happened to marcine?

Married... three children. She teaches the fundamentally challenged at highschool level
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on February 24, 2008, 03:57:48 PM
Good for her....I wish her the best.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on February 25, 2008, 03:59:22 AM
The Ward Family...............They did more for us all with so little, it was almost like a beam from God shined down on thier home.  I was friends with Robert, Marcine, and even Dorinda.  I think the mom's name was Shirley, but I cannot remember the fathers name at all.  They had a habit of leaving their door unlocked and their house open for anyone who may need to use the phone.  Cell phones were something that only Private Eyes had in their cars back then, hell beepers were even out of reach for most in those days.  They also kept the 7 step Treasury bank account for us for years.  Dad Ward was a skilled shade tree mechanic, and he helped fix several of our vehicles, saving us hundreds of dollars.  I remember one particular time he got burned real bad by Mike McCaan over his Camaro that he jumped Thrill Hill at Pasadena and Central and fucked up his ball joints.  I was in his car when it happened.  We were on our way back from a fishing expedition at the Skyway and he was down from Palm Harbor, or wherever the hell it was that he lived.  He just saw this hill coming up, and before I could say anything, he's like "Watch this shit man!." and he just floored it.  What he did'nt know was that the road abruptly curved right on the other side of the hill.  Anyone crazy enough to jump the hill ran the danger of winding up in the oncoming lanes of traffic. He hit the fucker doing about 80 and we went airborne.  His maniac grin quickly faded once he saw that we were gonna land on the wrong side of the road.  We hit the pavement so fucking hard my head brushed the ceiling, and Mike jerked the wheel hard left and we shot into the parking lot of a big ass church that was on the corner.  By the grace of God, there was no traffic, seeing how it was about 1 o'clock in the morning.  The guys that were following us could'nt believe what they had seen and had to turn around the median to pull up beside us.  Mikes car was Fu--ucked man!  It shimmied like a drunk on roller skates after that.  He stayed over at someones house and took it to Dad Ward the next day. 

With me, I had a '72 Gran Torino and needed new U-joints put in.  With great reluctance, Dad Ward agreed to help me out.  I even gave him a 20 dollar tip when it was over.  He was such a great guy, that he lended me this old '66 Cutlass Supreme to get around in while he worked on my car.  He really saved my ass, because a job like that would have cost a cool 300 bucks at a garage, and he only charged me 85 dollars. 

The Wards got a bad rap by alot of people who considered them "White Trash" and what not, but they were the most thoughtful, generous and goodhearted folks I ever knew from the program.  Robert was a good friend and had shacked up with Julie Ferron, but I dont think they lasted all that long.  I went in the Army in January of '83 and lost touch.

In May of '96, while working at the Fina at Central Ave and 49th Street, a robust woman with reddish brown hair, freckles, and one hell of a tan flew into the station, grabbed an Arizona Iced Tea, a pack of Virginia Slims, a Lotto ticket, and was gone in a flash, leaving the scent of Coconut Tanning Oil.  It was none other than Julie Ferron.  She looked the same as always, only a little bigger.  I never had the chance to say shit.... maybe it's for the best.

In 2003, while standing in line to pay for new wiper blades for my Celica Supra at Discount Auto Parts on 4th Street and 62nd, I saw a guy in line ahead of me who looked vaguely familiar.  It dawned on me that it was Robert Ward.  He glanced back at me in his checkout line state of boredom, and must have recognized me as well, because he just placed his merchandise on the counter and mumbled a lame excuse to the cashier, and simply hauled ass out of the store.  I was left standing there completely numb.  It really hit home right then, that there are some people that the program just left shattered, and it's best to just let sleeping dogs lie still.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on March 01, 2008, 06:02:15 PM
I ran into some girl in club detriot/janus landing one night that I did not recognize,but knew my name,MAYBE its not shattered ,but just caught off guard,and unsure of how to act.Or just plain uncomfortable,I dunno.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: 85 Day Jerk on March 01, 2008, 08:10:30 PM
Sorry, it was getting late when I posted that.  The 'shattered' reference was implied for myself.  I held on the the beliefs and moral codes that were drilled into us longer than any of my friends.  They saw that I had bought into the program in order to become a part of my estranged father's household.  Even though he was MY dad, he sure as fuck was married to Mike and Scott Lavender's mother Carole.  Adopting the Mike and Scott and changing their names to Patterson only increased the intensity of the mind fuck for me.  I was a stranger in my own home, a stranger to St. Pete, and even a stranger to myself.  When it finally hit me that it all had been a bunch of bullshit all along and for nothing, that no matter what, I did'nt count unless I had a wallet full of money and voted Republican, I ended up having a complete and total full tilt boogie nervous breakdown with all the trimmings.  Robert Ward happened to be one of the good friends who saw it coming but did'nt really know how to cope with it.  I've managed to witness other people crack up over the years with my involvement with National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, and it is by no means a pleasant thing to experience.  I really have no clue how I must have come across to some of my friends back in those days, but they saw me stripped down to the raw animal basics of my self.  I know that I can be extremely and devastatingly blunt to people when my mind aint right.  I know I said a lot of cruel things to people, but my brakes were out and I was going downhill full throddle back then.  One thing I do remember is coming up with the most brilliant ways of killing myself and talking about it like I was just gonna star in a movie or something.  That must have been hard to take for anyone who really cared about me to have to sit and listen to.

All that aside, I am really, really grateful for the times that I was able to come in contact with other Veterans and just bask in the glow of the company of one who can truly understand.  Thank You
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on November 16, 2008, 08:00:19 PM
:bump:

Just cause
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on November 16, 2008, 11:37:55 PM
Quote from: "85 Day Jerk"
Sorry, it was getting late when I posted that.  The 'shattered' reference was implied for myself.  I held on the the beliefs and moral codes that were drilled into us longer than any of my friends.  They saw that I had bought into the program in order to become a part of my estranged father's household.  Even though he was MY dad, he sure as fuck was married to Mike and Scott Lavender's mother Carole.  Adopting the Mike and Scott and changing their names to Patterson only increased the intensity of the mind fuck for me.  I was a stranger in my own home, a stranger to St. Pete, and even a stranger to myself.  When it finally hit me that it all had been a bunch of bullshit all along and for nothing, that no matter what, I did'nt count unless I had a wallet full of money and voted Republican, I ended up having a complete and total full tilt boogie nervous breakdown with all the trimmings.  Robert Ward happened to be one of the good friends who saw it coming but did'nt really know how to cope with it.  I've managed to witness other people crack up over the years with my involvement with National Alliance for the Mentally Ill, and it is by no means a pleasant thing to experience.  I really have no clue how I must have come across to some of my friends back in those days, but they saw me stripped down to the raw animal basics of my self.  I know that I can be extremely and devastatingly blunt to people when my mind aint right.  I know I said a lot of cruel things to people, but my brakes were out and I was going downhill full throddle back then.  One thing I do remember is coming up with the most brilliant ways of killing myself and talking about it like I was just gonna star in a movie or something.  That must have been hard to take for anyone who really cared about me to have to sit and listen to.

All that aside, I am really, really grateful for the times that I was able to come in contact with other Veterans and just bask in the glow of the company of one who can truly understand.  Thank You
Bob,
This will be one of my lengthy attempts to clarify that fog that creeps into all of our heads daily.

As far as the "Pattersons" being one big happy Straight family with "Crazy" Bob being the black sheep,I guess Carole's fantasy exploded with Mike's premature drug related demise(R.I.P)and Scott's arrest and conviction along with the life sentence of having to register as a sexual predator upon his release.Unfortunately,the truth doesn't always win out.In the case of the Patterson/Newman/Lavender trilogy,I think it has.How you can keep from gloating from these events is tribute to your karma and humility and maybe the rest of the world could use a dose of your insanity.Don't rub anybody's nose in anything,life has done that already.Maybe you haven't grown up to be President or to cure cancer,but you showed that the only true misfits were the ones who "fit" into that home.

Steve aka Brother Sam
Pura Vida from Costa Rica
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 20, 2008, 09:01:43 PM
so what is scott's middle name?
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 21, 2008, 04:50:01 PM
If you go on the http://www.dc.state.fl.us (http://www.dc.state.fl.us) website (Florida Dept of Correction) you can see all the sex offenders in Florida.  There are 3 (can u fucking believe it) Scott Pattersons listed.  I think I know which one is "our" scott, but not sure.  It has been almost 30 years since I saw that fucker...may he rot in hell!
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Rastarick on November 25, 2008, 04:13:30 PM
Oh man,found this site and it brought back alot of shit i had worked so hard to forget!!
Was in there for 3 years in the early 80`s  in pinallas park,my name is R. Curran.
The only thing i want to say is, Im so so sorry to all the people i hurt while in that shithole!!
i cant remember many names but i am truly sorry!
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 25, 2008, 06:06:25 PM
I remember you, Rick.  Glad you survived that shit, many of us didn't.  My name is Mark M.  I was there from 10/82--11/83.

Smoking herb helps me to deal with the trauma.............

Peace!
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 27, 2008, 01:59:23 PM
i know the feeling!!i like kava root.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on November 27, 2008, 05:26:02 PM
Quote from: "r"
i know the feeling!!i like kava root.

Wikipedia had some nice things to say about this Kava Root (and my interest is piqued)....but do I have to travel to Fiji to get it?

Woof
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 28, 2008, 12:22:41 PM
Quote from: "Woof-a-Doof"
Quote from: "r"
i know the feeling!!i like kava root.

Wikipedia had some nice things to say about this Kava Root (and my interest is piqued)....but do I have to travel to Fiji to get it?

Woof

No, it's legal in the USA.  Try speakingplants or mazatec gardens, or some of the salvia divinorum retailers, they should be able to hook you up.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on November 29, 2008, 10:09:28 AM
kava has been working 4 me 4 years.Discovered it while in the south pacific,i also found out that it has some sobbering effects when drinking to much alcohol!!!
Title: kava-kava
Post by: Froderik on November 29, 2008, 02:12:03 PM
They used to sell it (probably still do) at the natural food store where I worked.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2008, 09:21:56 PM
Hello MDeDyne, this is Margaret Heath, I don't remember saying that if I did sorry. I do remember Robin P and you getting together on that. We all were forced to do many things we regret.I would loveto talk to you if you want. I have been waiting along time to see you around here, hoping your okay, and thinking of you.

ON ANOTHER NOTE...
JK.. I KNOW WHO YOU ARE, AND THERE ARE SOME ACTS UNFORGIVABLE. I AM CERTAIN YOU REMEMBER OUR INTERACTION WHILE YOU WERE ON STAFF. YOOU AND LETHA Y. LOVED WHAT YOU DID. THE REST OF US WERE LOOKING FOR A WAY OUT. I  PROMISED YOU THAT IF I GOT OUT I WOULD COME BACK GET THE KIDS OUT AND TAKE YOUR JOB. REMEMBER,,, I DID JUST THAT.

JK...I WON'T PUT IT HERE BUT YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENED BETWEEN ME, YOU, LETHA AND KIM,,, I WOULD NOT STAND FOR ONE MORE BEATING ... THE KNIFE.. YOU STARTED ME OVER FOR PROTECTING KIM FROM BEING BEATEN AGAIN..

NOW, LET ME SAY THIS...MANY STAFF WE FORGIVE BECAUSE THEY DIDNT GET A THRILL OUT OF IT THEN AND DON'T NOW AND ARE TRULY SORRY.. PEOPLE LIKE MARNIE S, AIMEE W, SUE C,
THINK HARD- YOU SHOW UP NOW AND WANT PRAISE.. I DONT THINK SO,, I DID EXACTLY WHAT I SAID I WOULD.. I FOUGHT FOR MYSELF AND OTHERS FROM THE DAY I ESCAPED AS DID RICHARD, MIKE, GINGER,,,
YOU HAVE SOME SINCERE APOLOGIES TO MAKE BUDDY,,,,WHAT I PROMISED YOU IN THAT ROOM SOME 25 YEARS AGO STILL HOLDS IF YOU ARE A MOLE.. TRUST ME MY PROMISE TO YOU AND LETHA STILL HOLDS...

I DONT KNOW WHO POSTED AS ME EARLIER
BUT GINGER KNOWS IF ITS ME OR NOT

MARGARET HEATH,
JK I HAVE NOT FORGOTTEN
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2008, 09:40:04 PM
JK MY FIRST RESPONSE WAS JUST SEEING IT WAS YOU NOW I READ YOUR POST

PLEASE, WHO THE HELL ARE YOU TRYING TO KID, COMING ON HERE TRYING TO AVOID RESPONSIBILITY AGAIN...

OK MR DID IT GO HORRIABLY WRONG AFTER I LEFT.. NO AND YOU KNOW IT YOU MADE IT WORSE AND YOU KNOW IT

I WASNT GOING TO POST THIS BUT I WILL NOW

HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU AND LETHA HAVE BEATINGS ORDERED
HOW ABOUT MED RAP..
HOW MANY TIMES DID YOU TELL ME AND I QUOTE WE WILL NEVER LET YOU  OUT BECAUSE WE KNOW WHAT YOU WILL DO RUN TO THE COPS.. WELL ON THAT NOTE YOU WERE
RIGHT.
HOW ABOUT THE PLEA DEALS AFTER I CLOSED SARASOTA
I FACED U IN A ROOM WHEN I COULD NOT WATCH ONE MORE BEATING THAT U ORDERED ON KIM S..
I PULLED A WEPON ON YOU TO PROTECT HER- I TOLD YOU THEN THAT IF YOU HURT ONE MORE PERSON  - WELL YOU KNOW WHAT I PROMISED.
DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT IT WAS LIKE AT FIFTEEN TO TRULY DECIEDE THAT AT THAT AGE.. I STILL HAVE NIGHTMARES ABOUT IT.

DO NOT COME ON THIS BOARD ACTING INOCENT I WILL BLOW YOUR COVER EVERY TIME. NO REGRETS HUH,,,
WELL JUST REMEMBER ME JK,, REMEMBER WHAT I TOLD YOU I MEANT EVERY WORD THEN AND NOW
ASK ANY SURVIVOR IF I KEEP THOSE TYPES OF PROMISE
ASK MILLER NEWTON
ASK  BETTY SEMBLER
ASK HELEN PETERMAN

YOU ARE FORGIVEN WHEN AND ONLY WHEN YOU COME TO ME AND YOU ARE TRULY SORRY AND THAT MY GUESS IS YOU DONT HAVE THE GUTS
YOU WONT DO THAT ANYTIME SOON.

TO THE OTHER SURVIVORS WELL JK,, THEY REMEMBER YOU TOO.

MH
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 01, 2008, 10:13:44 PM
please forgive me other survivors but i can not let this one go.
ok jk.. let me refresh your memory and maybe a few others will start to remember you

you and letha lead morning rap.
one morning an innocent 12 year old boy was crying hysterically,
first you accused him of being an attention freak
then you pushed him for what was up , he honestly said that the night before he had been raped by his two old commers whom were brothers.
you and letha did not report it, you did nothing . oh wait , you and letha decieded the right punishement for the two old commers was a 14 day refresher , like bobby rugals this
kid was destroyed. a 14 day refresher you sob...

do you remember in morning rap for thirty days straight i was on front row and misbehaved. now, i will tell you why , which i have told no one but those close to me, every morning i misbehaved, pretended to wrestle with the girl next to me. Why? because i knew you and letha would get off your staff chair and come break it up which gave me an opprotunity to deck letha and you at least once durring the struggle. for every beating ordered the day before you and letha got hit the following day. it was my way of not letting you get away with it. No one knew why i suddenly misbehaved daily except loray H. we managed to wisper and she joined with me.

no regrets , you sob , you owe that 12 year old who was never right again a lifetime of apologies.

u coming on here acting innocent makes me sick and you are one of the staff like chris c that i dont think can ever make up for the lives you
destroyed.
to the other survivors , dont let this one fool you. first name john,
MH
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 02, 2008, 08:28:41 PM
Wow.  If you're talking about this one jk in particular I think you must be mistaken.  This jk had left staff before Letha was on staff.  This jk did not work mornings because of attending school.  This jk had no authority to start people over or put them on refreshers and was extremely limited on what he was allowed to talk about.  This jk never confronted a kid like you described about a rape.  I will tell you though at what point I made my final decision to leave staff, if you care.  It was during an open night, a third phase kid was crying uncontrollably in the group.  I took him into the back room and asked what was wrong.  He was feeling guilty because he had gone home.  He lived on a farm.  He told me, a 15 year old kid myself, that he had sex with one of their farm animals.  Please believe me when I tell you this because it is the absolute truth.  I had no idea what to say or what to do.  So I asked him to return to group while I went to go get someone else that could help him.  Well, those people were RK, a marine wannabe and CC, who you've mentioned.  They laughed it off and told me they would take care of it which they never did.  Very soon after that I resigned.  

Also, this jk never met you in a room after you "closed Sarasota" because he had been in college for two years by then.  No one ever pulled a knife on me because I was never in a situation like you described and would never order someone to be beaten.  Believe what you will, but I think you may be speaking of someone with the initials of cp based on what I have read on this website.  

I remember you clearly and if memory serves I remember your dad as well from junior high school PE.  I really think you have mistaken me for someone else.  Although, after soul searching and getting blunt feedback on this website I do believe I was naive, ignorant, blind or whatever you want to call me to what was beginning to happen.  As I've posted before, in my brief time on staff my intentions were never malicious however misguided they may have been.  

I debated whether or not to respond to this post, but what you describe never happened with this jk.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979 (and this JK character)
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on December 03, 2008, 08:09:43 AM
Ok...I must admit, I am a wee bit obsessed with trying to remember this "JK" individual. I read severel pages back, I get 2+2=5...Nothing is clear tween my ears. I re-read a run-in I had with a previous staffer circa page 15 or 16. I admitted I did not know him on staff, as I gather, he was on staff in Sarasota. If that is the case he was incarcerated at the same time I was 1978-81 and most probably in the same building or buildings. Yet I am not clear on who this person is. Yet I feel I must know him. Was the run-in mentioned with this same person, "JK"?

I am real sensitive to rage expressed in the most recent posts and clearly disturbed by the absolute horror. I don't recall a "Letha", so this obviously took place after my stint and took place in Sarasota. But still it seems more and more clear to me that this "JK" character is someone I knew. I see his name as "John"...Only person I knew on the lowel level of Staff (towards the end of my incarceration) was John Corbin...who I drank with a few times shortly after graduation in one of the old ABC Liquor Lounges somewhere on 4th St. in St. Pete...Perhaps it was the 49th Street Gold Mine....something like that. Yet, I dont think it's the same individual.

At this point I am not sure if this "JK" was male or female.

MH...I remember you, not well of course and I believe you had a brother, [email protected] I had heard rumor of his death. My condolences, he was good people. He was a friend of a dear friend (not straight related) and he relayed the news to me...which left me in shock and sadness.

I had to admire you from afar....for obvious reasons...I was on the guys side. But I recall your absolute resolution and simplistic defiance in regard to the atrocities that took place. If memory is correct, it was you who bitch slaped Chris Casslor, once, twice, three times as he was all up in your face while you sat on first row. I was awe struck! Primarily because Chris Casslor got what he well deserved! Secondarily, because you had the hutzbah. If you are the one I recall doing this, Chriss was inches away from your face, taunting you...asking you if it felt good to hit someone...at which point ya bitch slapped him again. Chriss was unrelenting in berating and badgering you...at which point he got the third and final crack across the face.

I had real mixed emotions at the time. Soooo, proud of you! Soooo, disapointed that I didnt have the balls to do it myself. I was far from a fighter and had zero street sense...just a terrified teenager in a fucked up situation.

My memory is bleak and foggy on this account....but I also recall an incident with George Ross in the Green Room at the Morgan Yacht Building. For what ever sick, perverted reasoning he was re-enacting a rape. Several people held the girl (whom I believe was you) down while he "dry humbed" you, re-enacting this rape. It was sickening to watch, horrifying to be able to do nothing...and a memory that has lived with me for over 3 decades. I am soo sorry I did nothing to help you...it sickens me to this day. George Ross was so into what he was doing, his face was blood red and I distinctly remember drool coming from his mouth and actually falling on you. I carry a special hate for George Ross. It would be less than honest to imply that I do not also carry, in no small degree, the hatred I harbor within, for not doing anything to prevent his actions or to protect you from his actions. It is something, I suppose I will carry to my grave.

For some reason I remember in more recent times you took Sue [email protected]@kson under your wing after her release from   the state. Sue was, and probably still is good people. If you are the person I believe you are, please say hello to Sue and that "Mr. D" sends much love and healing.

One other thing, if as a rule of thumb we protect each other, as survivors, by initials or some other method to obscure the names for privacy issues...ya know, employers doing searches on peoples names etc... And as a rule, on the other thumb, we use full names of Staff because of thier participation in the abuse (of course there are exceptions....staff who genuinely regret and have made demonstrable efforts to show remorse for thier actions...we know who they are) Yet in regard to this "JK" character.....who has been called "John"...why can't his name be published? For two reasons....A) I won't obsess and lose anymore sleep and B) If he particapated in abuse, willingly, gladly, purposfully (sp) and with great pleasure...shouldn't it be known to all?

I hope not to add pressure to those that have reservations about exposing the individuals full name...Yet with the seething rage and overt hostility expressed in recent post in this thread....why not simply give full disclosure on this persons identity? If he/she was an abuser and still doesnt see the light, why not bring thier name into the sun? Sunshine is the best deodorizer!

I feel dreadfull for rehashing all this...but I have no other way of communicating that which I can not fully explain. It's not unlike speaking that which is unspeakable....I feel so dis-at-ease, for the incident, the memories, the fact I along with a room full of guys in the green room at the time (that also did nothing to prevent the atrocity with George Ross)...and to add to the misery...I am not even sure if you were the young girl that it hapened to. If that be the case, I am even more sorry. A) Because your name/initials were involved B) The young girl (if it was not you), now a full grown woman does not have the validation that it took place....and all my apologies, regrets and nightmares are aimed at the wrong person. That girl deserves the recogniton and again the validation. She deserves the deepest sympathy and the greatest of all peace and healing.

Disturbed...
Heart Sick...
woof
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on December 03, 2008, 10:45:16 AM
I know who jk is , letha was a total koolaid drinker,I  went thru the "trainee" training w/ jk,he didnt strike me as viscious.George Ross is /was from mars.He had demons of his own,I know a bunch about them as I knew george post program. M H I knew you too,and your brother and cousin,I Just Love the video of you getting all up miller newtons grill,what a sorry sack of shit he is.Probably the single most arrogant,and ego-driven peice of shit I EVER met.It amazes me to this day that str8 even existed,let alone expanded,and grew,unfettered by law or any concept of human rights.I mean this is suposed to be america,right ? not some stalinesque,fascist country.
 as for jk being abusive, I dunno, I wasnt around to see it,or not see it,nobody I knew post program from sarasota ever said shit about him or Liz H,bein shitty,And Im not about to sit here and say It didnt happen ,Im just sayin'  ....I ..... Didnt see it.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Froderik on December 03, 2008, 11:29:15 AM
How's that sorry old fucker doing, anyway? Is he dead yet?  ::deadhorse::

He probably got that coronary from dishing out tough love all those years...  :rofl:

Fuck Miller Newton and his 'disciples.'
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2008, 03:56:16 PM
Dear Woof,

You have NO idea how much good it did my heart to read your post. You HAVE NO IDEA HOW WARMED MY HEART WAS  AT YOUR POST. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT GOOD IT DID MY SOUL TO HEAR WHAT YOU WROTE. THANK YOU, THANK YOU, THANK YOU. To know that others were thinking of each other. It matters not that no one stepped in, we were all kids and we all were in hell. For what it is worth, some were at an age or point in the program or place with their family that they couldn't fight back. It is not that they didn't want to with all their heart , they couldnt. Many snuck information around to help us and I was never good at sneaking, some were good at fighting . The point is we ALL, ALL helped each other survive hell. Please put to rest your guilt over having not intervened. I mean that. We all did what we were capable of at the time. I am no better than anyone else. There were times that i had to engage in abuse toward the end just to get out. It ripped my heart out like no one could understand. I would half sit on someone, I would appear to be confronting them etc. It rips my heart to this day but at the time I knew that i couldn't come back with the pollice if I didnt get out and the only way out was to play the game. For anyone that I hurt YOU HAVE NO IDEA HOW SORRY I AM, BUT I COULDN'T TELL YOU THAT I HAD A PLAN. THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT RIGHT OR BETTER BUT I WAS COMING BACK FOR YOU , ALL OF YOU, EVERY LAST ONE OF YOU. BECAUSE OF MY MORALS , NO . BECAUSE I COULDN'T LIVE WITH MYSELF IF I DIDNT. Yes, I was in the green room but i wasn't the only one. There were several girls. In the green room one time, 3 phasers beat my brother and his head went through the wall. If I jumped to help i would be started over and i was nearing third phase but i didnt care. I flew out of group and tried to get to him . I was tackled, beaten , what they now call waterboarding, and started over. I am revealing this because I am tired of no justice. It is time they are accountable. I am soo glad that the video of Miller makes you smile. Many because of the damage done to them can not face certain things and THAT IS NORMAL. IF Richard and I and Sammy, Ginger and Mike and anyone else can help one, one survivor feel some ,however small , justice than we are happy. I am not just saying that either.

As for JK  you are correct. I didnt devuldge it at first to give him a chance - not that he deserves it- to come an apologize and show in his actions he was sorry. But youre right, I should reveal his name. I hope that by doing so this does not cause a flood of memories that are horriaable for anyone. He was mild mannered the goody two shoes and many liked him. While in there he seemned nice enough because when compared to Chris Casselor or Richard Knowles , he was nothing. So , he looked better on the face beacause of how bad Chris and Richard were.

THE NAME JK THAT I AM REFERING TO IS JOHN KIDWILDER.

if the jk that posted here is not you, please, please forgive my rage. I hope you understand when i saw that, and the staff and the years fit. If it is not you all i can say is your post disturb me because if your not him, how do you say "no regrets". There is not a survivor i know that would say they have no regrets. Your memory may be failing you so i wont push it as you will remember when your ready.

IF I HAD ONE WISH, I WOULD WISH THAT FROM THIS DAY FORWARD THAT ALL SURVIVORS WOULD FIGHT FOR EACH OTHER, BE PATIENT WITH EACH OTHER HELP EACH OTHER. THE BOND WE HAVE IS ONE ONLY FOUND IN FOX HOLES.  I AM GOING TO REPOST SOMETHING UNDER THIS THAT I i POSTED WEEKS AGO I THINK EXPLAINS WHAT I MEAN.

I HAVE NEVER POSTED THIS PART OF MY HEART BUT I CARE DEEPLY ABOUT EACH AND EVERYONE ONE OF THE SURVIVORS. I KNOW THAT MANY OTHERS LIKE GINGER , SAMMY, MIKE , AND RICHARD DO TO. THEY HAVE TO OR THEY COULD NOT DO WHAT THEY HAVE DONE THROUGH THE YEARS.

HERE IS A POST I MADE WEEKS AGO. IT IS HARD TO PUT MY HEART ON THE BOARD, STILL SCARED OF OPENING IT TO ANYONE, STILL AFRAID THAT IT WILL BE TAKEN WRONG OR WE WILL CONFRONT EACH OTHER AS WE SOMETIMES DO. MY TRUE HEART HAS BEEN CLOSED FOR YEARS. NO MATTER WHAT POST APPEARS AFTER THIS THANK YOU FOR GIVING ME THE COURAGE TO TAKE THE CHANCE.



POST- IN REFRENCE TO "IN LOVING MEMORY"

There are countless lives taken from all the programs. Straight has a LONG list. Wrongful death suit seems appropriate.
I have a question though does anyone know a survivor has that has taken their life years after leaving. Such as being out lets say 20 years later or something. If so, does anyone know how many? Does anyone know the most recent. I know the memories haunt us all for years if not a lifetime. I have a reason for asking and I don't mean to be depressing or inappropriate. Rumour has it there has been many in their 30s or 40s that have taken their life as a direct result of the endless torment the programs create throughout life. I also heard that several did recently.

May you all rest in peace now, no longer plagued by the brainwashing, night terrors and hatred that even time can not subside. To those fallen survivors may we always remember you and remember that the worst nightmare of those that tortured us is for us to work as a team, no longer to tormet each other. No longer to be afraid of control or lack there of, to longer buy into their tactic of divide and conquer. To all of those that engaged in destroying us the worst that could happen to them is for all of us to show real love and concern for each other not the sick , confrontational love they tried to drill in us, to work together as one not be divided over things that do not reflect justice for all of our fallen friends. Ginger is right that we are and were a victim of war. A bond (ask any vet) that can not be broken by anything. A bond that would mean we have, and did and would continue to give our life and our love for another survivor.
That is our enemys worst nightmare.

Margaret H.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2008, 04:54:11 PM
Thank you to all the survivors who have been patient with me through this topic and who remembered me and my family. While I am devuldging my heart i want to tell you all this. Shortyl after coming in say six months or so. I knew and planned that in order to be a crediable witness I had to remember as much as possiable. I committed to memory staff names, birthdays , innodents, who was there , who did what. When i was in group , in my head I was repeating things over and over in my head to never forget so i could be a good witness.
I had no idea HOW MENTALLY DESTRUCTIVE THAT WOULD BE TO ME AND I DON'T RECOMMEND IT.
I am saying this because I want anyone to know that I hurt THAT IT KILLS ME TO THIS DAY, BUT I HAD A PLAN. It took 3 and half to four years to finally get out where i was put in the protection of the state and was court ordered OUT of the program. I am also saying this to let you know , wolf and others that on the face of things some of us seem like fighters but inside the nightmares are horrid, the faces you can see like yesterday because you commited it to memory.
Yet, i find that I still have many blanks. But what I do know is the staff that enjoyed the power, the abuse , the control so here is the list of names I have

Chris Casselor - sick , including the sex wraps and "accidently" walking into girl strip searches and soooo much more
Richard Knowles - SICK
Wanda Minton
Letha Yost - I HEARD has cancer. I believe her dad woho worked with my mom , told my mom that.
John Kidwllder
Ms. Gregario- Adult women got involved sexually with guy newcomers, i believe they were underage too.
Greg and his mother - on staff in Sarasota. His mom was executive staff, short blondish hair, greg was short stocky , dark hair and a disabled sister
Helen Peterman
Betty Sembler
Liz Cassidy
David - junior staff, morgan yacht, muscle bound not david searcy
Aimee Wright - But i have gotten through that one as she is so sick from cancer i think she is incorherent and has to be taken care of like a child
Pam G
Miller Newton
Mike - short stocky , sarasota
Dr Hartz
Dr Ross
Charles Morgan - I have interviewed him in the last three years and YOU SIR SHOULD SHOW THE BALLS THAT DR. BURNS HAS. YOU LIED TO ME WHEN I CALLED AND APPEARED TO HAVE NO REGRETS.

Those staff that got me out and I owe my life to

Marnie S- ALWAYS MY FRIEND , FOR LIFE. IF YOU EVER NEED ANYTHING I WILL ALWAYS BE HERE FOR YOU
Sue C. Yes, i took her in a couple of years ago, I owed her AT LEAST that.
Leslee F- If your out there PLEASE CONTACT GINER AND CONTACT ME, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT HOW MUCH I OWE YOU
Dee Dee L.- DEE YOU KNOW SO I WONT EMBARRASS YOU HERE.
They worked together to get me out and in the custody of the state. Marnie saved my life in there more than once. If it had not been for them, who were not on staff anymore there is no way i could have gotten out to close the program. I owe all of them my life as i could take no more.

Those I have spoken to and I know they never felt good about it or have done what they can to help and rectify what they did

Cheryl C.
Nancy H
David S.- I believe is deceased
Robin P.-
Dr Burns has given ISAC a statement, tried to help the survivors within a year of Sarasota closing , to this day even if it is three am , if its a survivor he will come to the phone. More than willing to testify
Sherrie H
Brett P.


I am sorry cant go on, to many memories.

TO BETTY SEMBLER WHO NEVER ASKED US WHAT DO WE WANT

WE WANT GOVERNMENT HEALTH BENEFITS FOR ALL SURVIVORS BECAUSE THE GOVERNMENT SUPPORTED IT
WE WANT A MEETING WITH YOU , MEL AND HELEN AND FOUR PREVIOUSLY CHOSEN SURVIVORS . A LEGIT, PROFESSIONAL, NON THREATNING MEETING. BUT OF COURSE YOU DONT HAVE THE GUTS TO TALK TO US DO YOU. .
 BTW Betty how is the girlfriend, neet little arrangement you have, hows it working out for you.It must be hard handling the girlfriend huh?? Oh wait, you didnt want that made public. My bad. No, Betty you have NO IDEA how much we know, you have no idea how much evidence we have. We are patient , in time Betty the truth about you will be told. Did you ever wonder why the ambassadors , and elite that cancelled on your birthday party a few years ago over in Rome. Simple everyone that was invited (long guest list you made btw) got documents. I guess some just couldnt stand the thought of associating with someone like that.Now, show some guts and set up the meeting.
WE WANT THE MORGAN YACHT BUILDING TO PUT IN THAT VERY PLACE A HELP CENTER FOR SURVIVORS AND THOSE HAVING BEEN ABUSED
WE WANT YOU TO ADMIT IT AND THEN DO WHAT YOU CAN TO MAKE IT RIGHT IN THE LIFE YOU HAVE LEFT ALTHOUGH YOU CANT MAKE IT RIGHT YOU COULD TRY
WE WANT A PUBLIC ADMISSION AND APOLOGY
WE WANT YOU TO GIVE UP -BETTY SEMBLER - DAY
WE WANT THE SEMBLER COMPANY TO SELL WHATEVER IT HAS TO  TO CREATE A FUND FOR SURVIVORS
WE WANT A REVIEW BOARD TO INSURE AND HAVE FREEDOM TO INVESTIGATE OTHER PROGRAMS TO MAKE SURE THIS DOESNT HAPPEN
And a few other things.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 03, 2008, 05:15:22 PM
Margaret, this is John that responded.  At the beginning when I found this site you are correct, I did have no regrets.  I was thinking only of my self and not seeing what my actions did even though they did not compare to the violence the staff members put you and others through.  Someone in one thread made an analogy which really sunk in to me.  While I thought I was extending a hand to help people, my other hand was being controlled by Straight.  While my intentions were to help, I was actually continuing doing nothing more than carrying out what Straight wanted me to.  All the "tools" I thought I had to help were not mine but Straights.  In my heart I truly wanted to help people and still to this day, I just couldn't see I was not helping at the time.  I do apologize for those actions and there is no excuse for them.  However, the things and situations you accused me of in your post are simply not true as I explained in my previous response.  While I am guilty of perpetuating the Straight philosophy while I was on staff, I was never physical with anyone and never could or would order someone to be beaten.  I had seen enough after the open meeting scene I described and left to move on with my life. Should I have questioned things more?  Absolutely, but I cannot change that now and feel terrible for the horrendous things you and others went through and still go through to this day.  I understand you being angry at me for being on staff and being a part of this nightmare.  I doubt I can change that but if I could I would.

Sorry to you and to all.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2008, 08:55:06 AM
This is Margaret D. the person that started this thread so long ago. Margaret H. I remember you well.
You owe me no apology for our time together in straight. We were all in the same situation, doing whatever we could to survive.
I do remember one thing about you though that seems not to have changed and that is that you were a liar.
I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but it's truly the one big thing that stands out in my memory.
From day one when you stood up and said that you knew me and that we had done all these drugs together when in fact we had never even met. I remember then wondering why you had lied but, for some reason, that was just the begining.
You stood up in many raps and said things about me that were simply not true. Maybe it was because I was from Sarasota and at that time there weren't that many of us, or maybe it was because we had the same name...I really have no idea why you felt the need to do that but maybe in some strange way, that was your way of dealing with being there.

I also remember and knew John K. and I have to say that I do not think that his name belongs on your list of staff members that were abusive and enjoyed it. You wrote about things that he did to you that he couldn't possibly  have done because he wasn't even there! And how was he so different than any one of us? He was just a kid too, trying to find his way thru all that shit in his own way. I don't remember him EVER being cruel or abusive to anyone while I was there and we knew eachother after he left, so I think my timeline is pretty accurate.
Maybe your memory is blurred and you have him confused with someone else, or maybe you are lying to make some kind of point, I'm really not sure. If you're going to start recounting your memories of certain raps and who said what you might want to keep in mind that there are still some of us who remember you and the things you said and did. Long before you were the activist trying to close the program, you were the staff trainee doing everything and anything to get on staff.  I've read a couple of your posts where people have remembered a certain incident where something happened to a girl and you have siad that the girl was you when it absolutely wasn't you. Why would lie like that????
I'm not trying to say that horrible things didn't happen to you because I don't know what happened after I left, but your lying about people and events during that time makes me question just about everything that you post.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2008, 05:30:12 PM
Margaret H. go back and read your sworn affidavit.
Just wondering why the incidents you claimed happened with John K. are incidents that in your sworn affidavit  you say happened with Chris C.
And if John K was as horrible as you have said, why is his name not mentioned even ONCE?

You owe this man a serious apology
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2008, 08:08:48 PM
Quote from: "guest"
This is Margaret D. the person that started this thread so long ago. Margaret H. I remember you well.
You owe me no apology for our time together in straight. We were all in the same situation, doing whatever we could to survive.
I do remember one thing about you though that seems not to have changed and that is that you were a liar.
I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but it's truly the one big thing that stands out in my memory.
From day one when you stood up and said that you knew me and that we had done all these drugs together when in fact we had never even met. I remember then wondering why you had lied but, for some reason, that was just the begining.
You stood up in many raps and said things about me that were simply not true. Maybe it was because I was from Sarasota and at that time there weren't that many of us, or maybe it was because we had the same name...I really have no idea why you felt the need to do that but maybe in some strange way, that was your way of dealing with being there.

I also remember and knew John K. and I have to say that I do not think that his name belongs on your list of staff members that were abusive and enjoyed it. You wrote about things that he did to you that he couldn't possibly  have done because he wasn't even there! And how was he so different than any one of us? He was just a kid too, trying to find his way thru all that shit in his own way. I don't remember him EVER being cruel or abusive to anyone while I was there and we knew eachother after he left, so I think my timeline is pretty accurate.
Maybe your memory is blurred and you have him confused with someone else, or maybe you are lying to make some kind of point, I'm really not sure. If you're going to start recounting your memories of certain raps and who said what you might want to keep in mind that there are still some of us who remember you and the things you said and did. Long before you were the activist trying to close the program, you were the staff trainee doing everything and anything to get on staff.  I've read a couple of your posts where people have remembered a certain incident where something happened to a girl and you have siad that the girl was you when it absolutely wasn't you. Why would lie like that????
I'm not trying to say that horrible things didn't happen to you because I don't know what happened after I left, but your lying about people and events during that time makes me question just about everything that you post.

 Thank you, Margaret, and the following guest who posted directly after you.  I'm not looking to be excused for being on staff.  I understand there is guilt by ignorance.  But, I was never involved in these situations I was accused of and if my name is going to be listed, which I do not care because I have noting to hide, I want to defend my name.  It was a long time ago and memories fade, but I was not associated with the slanderous accusations that were made; simple as that.

Thank you again and I hope all is well with you and your family.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2008, 09:56:26 PM
Dear Margaret D.

It seems you have some real burried anger at me for something i did. You mentioned saying that we knew each other, i may have the truth is I don't remember. I do know that many of us did things we regret as you said because we had to.
I think it is very "staff" like of you to call me a liar when you do not know what happened by your own admission. But, i think that is the result of some burried resentment which I understand if I hurt you somehow.
I will say this, we all know Straight was BAD ENOUGH that there is no reason for anyone to lie about what happened there. I don't need to prove anything to you but I will say this my memory is not flawed, I know exactly what happened with John K. In fact, he may even tell you. I am sure he remembers the knife incident.

You know Margaret I do care about you but I find it disheartning that you would come out of the woodwork after all these years and start or nearly start by calling another survivor a liar. If you don't believe things like that happened in Sarasota don't take my word for it ask Sammy or even Ginger.
I have NEVER lied about what happened there and I never would. There is no point. I am not writing a book , or gaining anything.

I must say its a bit odd for you to come on here an attack me when you just stroll in. I have been fighting this for well since I got there. I paid a huge price then  and after. I put my money where my mouth was, many times i spent hundreds if not thousands fighting this, I have been across the country fighting it, I relived it not willingly but because when you get that involved it is like swallowing poison as it brings back the memories, nightmares and consumes you. I have suffered , my family has suffered, my son has suffered .  As I write this I must say I grow angry so, since you were blunt , I shall be too. What I want to say is how dare you! How dare you take my worst memories and scars and chop it up to a lie which I gain nothing from.
Yes, I was a staff trainee and not that you know why or how but i'll tell you how, i was 7th stepped and staff me (Cheryl K) ask her she will tell you,asked me. I was working on an escape and if i said no , they would know right away something was up. I was on staff all of , at most four to five months. I dindn't and couldnt turn it down without giving myself away. I also knew that being on staff would give me access to documents to take with me to the DA and police. THAT is why I was on staff.
When i left , I didnt go get high, I didnt go party with friends, I WENT DIRECTLY TO THE POLICE. I took my moms car and went directly to the authorities with all the evidence i had. Now, if my motive was anything less than that I would have gone out and partied or hung with friends or at least taken one night to party. I didn't.
I find it a little presumptious of you to think you know what i did or why i did it. But lets see do my actions match my words?
You know Margaret now that I have said how I feel. Look we were brainwashed to destroy and confront and be cruel to each other. Those of us here on this board are refusing to do that again to each other ESPECIALLY WITHOUT CAUSE. I know you just came around but we are here to work together , to be there for each other, to fight with each other.
As for my " activisim" I have NOTHING TO prove to you. I PUT MY ACTIONS WHERE MY MOUTH WAS MANY MANY YEARS AGO WHILE STILL IN THE PROGRAM and MANY MANY TIMES SINCE. I have been there for survivors even shortly after they got out. Many other survivors have been there for me as well and I am forever grateful to all them.
All I can do is tell you that whatever I did to you to hurt you and make you angry I am from the bottom of my heart sorry. I hope that helps your burried anger. I know its hard when you first start looking it up, remembering things and the anger and all of it comes back.
You may not think that Johns name belongs here, there is nothing I can do about that. I know what I know , I WILL NEVER FORGET IT.

 YOU SAID "he did to you that he couldn't possibly have done because he wasn't even there! " - Margaret he was there, he was on staff , junior staff ask the other survivors.

 No, I never saw John hit anyone or sit on anyone. However, Kim S was misbehaving and I was on a higher phase, Letha told me to take her in the back room and "take care of it" I knew what that meant. It meant taking her on because she was fighting with others in the group,, Well, I couldnt watch or participate in one more incident so I didnt . A few minutes into us being in the room John and Letha heard no noice from the room and came in to see what was up. They came in Kim mouthed off at them and they told me to grab her and put her on the floor, I wouldn't. I was planning an escape and had a small switch blade in my pocket that i had taken from my dads dresser just in case they figured me out. I pulled it out and said to John and Letha - If you come near her I will kill you- It wasnt said like people say it when they are mad. I was calm, For the first time in my life I meant it. My stomach sank as I realized I would,  its a calm but frightning feeling when you cross that ledge. YOU HAVE NO IDEA, HOW ANGRY I HAVE BEEN THAT THEY PUT ME IN THE POSITION TO MAKE THAT KIND OF CHOICE AT 16 YEARS OLD , I WOULD HAVE TO TAKE A LIFE TO PROTECT MINE AND HERS. YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHAT THAT FEELS LIKE. BTW I WAS EITHER ON 5TH PHASE BUT I BELIEVE I WAS A STAFF TRAINEE. IF I DIDNT CARE, IF I WASNT FIGHTING EVEN THEN WHY ON GODS EARTH WOULD I RISK A START OVER WHEN I WAS SOOO CLOSE TO GETTING OUT JUST TO HELP KIM AND YES, I GOT STARTED OVER. BECAUSE I AM WONDERFUL  A RESOUNDING NO- BECAUSE I COULD NOT WATCH ONE MORE BEATING IT WAS SELFISH, I COULDNT STAND ANYMORE.
 So, If i was (As you say) so excited about being on staff than tell me why I was
The first 7th stepper ever started over  and then ever started over twice
Why was I the first staff ever started over
Why was holding the record for start overs
SIMPLE - because i was fighting it even then.I could of chose to coast through in nine months leave and be done with it , I DIDNT HAVE TO GET UP HELP KIM OR ANYONE ELSE BUT I DID. i dont like saying that, and want no "points" for it. Because it was Marnie S and Dee Dee who did that for me many times, saved me many times in there. I was following their example. NOW, that is not to say that all start overs were due to someone else. It was John and letha who gave those oldcomers a 14 day refresher PERIOD. I know because i can still see his face like it was yesterday.

As for the green room Margaret I was there longer than anyone ever had been at the time. I was in EVERY building, Green Room yes i watched them throw my brothers head through a wall in the Green Room, I was in the Green Room when Aimee , Nancy got in my face in a private confrontation, I was in the "green room" when Ross came in. I never got raped in there. I do not want to talk about Ross, not because of what he did to me so much as what he did to my friends who i have sat with years later and listned  to them cry and if I am not mistaken YOU WERENT EVEN THERE.

many think Gails name belongs here , I don't because she didnt do anything to me , but  its not really that I dont. I understand why they would feel that way and any staff that enjoyed it like Wanda or has no regrets should be here.

I am trying hard not to get angry because usually when we all roll on here for the first time its hard. We have all sorts of anger and blame and all that goes with it and we often attack each other or the first person because they are there. So, let me say it again , I am sorry for ANYTHING I may have done to you in there.
All I can say Margaret is slow down, take your time. Let the memories come back and deal with what you can and put away what is to hard. I know the more you talk to people on here the more we all remember things, but lets be here for each other not attack each other as we did in group. Nothing makes the Semblers more happy.

MARGARET - NO ONE THAT I KNOW IS HERE TO BLAME YOU, OR ACCUSE YOU. Your time in there is something only you can deciede if there is anything you need or feel the need to apologize for, you are right that all of us kids had to do certain things that none of us are proud of to save ourselves. The exceptions are those that enjoyed it so, or who come on here telling us the same thing they did in group or try to hurt us again.
I CANT SPEAK FOR EVERYONE MARGARET BUT FOR THE ONES I KNOW ON HERE I THINK I CAN SAY THAT THEY ARE PATIENT AS A SAINT WITH EACH OTHER, THEY ARE NOT HERE TO "confront" you - that was in Straight not here. Find another survivor you trust on here and talk to them it helps.
I wish you the best and I am sorry that at times in this post I sounded angry I am human, but the truth is I know how hard it is when you first start looking straight up again.
I know there are MANY MANY caring survivors here.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2008, 10:11:22 PM
I just realized i didnt answer "guest" question.

When I closed the program i gave a full deposition to the State Attorney. The state attorney had a 600 PAGE report as a result of that deposition and investigation. As for Chris, he and about eight others plea bargined , so who is telling the truth?
You can feel free to contact that state attorney and ask him, (let me know and Ill give you his contact information) he is retired now but I still talk to him occassionally and send xmas cards to thank him for getting me out and saving my life. I was there a LONG time, so I don't know what sworn affadavit your refering to I have done a few to help other survivors with their cases. In that circumstance , they want only answers or information on specific things having to do with them or their case. Again , I don't know which affadavit your refering to but maybe that helps answer it. There was a full and long investigation when I closed the program and you will find everything there.

Hope that helps
MH
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 04, 2008, 11:09:37 PM
Margaret H. I have no buried anger toward you nor did you hurt me in any way that I would have issues with you.
I "came out of the woodwork" because I read what you wrote about John K. and could not let that go without saying something.
You call me " staff like" because I wrote about your lying, but it's the truth Margaret. You lied on a regular basis the entire time I knew you and then you come here and lie about things that happened with John K. and I have no idea why. Your stories remain the same but you change the players according to who you're aiming your anger at.  You can write whatever you want about people even if it isn't true, but when someone calls you on your lies then they are not being supportive of their fellow survivor???  

Did you see the date I started this thread????
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: mh1979 on December 04, 2008, 11:42:01 PM
Margaret - I also wanted to answer one other question.
You asked about Chris C. I could go into a VERY LONG LIST of innocents involving Chris, Letha and others.
Some of us kinda follow an unwritten rule when we discuss straight and the memories that come flooding back and how deal with each other as friends.
if I listed all these things I remember  about this person or that, it may jog the memory of a person whom is new to the board, perhaps a memory they aren’t ready to deal with and were not expecting to be hit with. In the past, some have committed suicide after looking up Straight or seeking out survivors and trying to deal with all the anger, hurt, pain etc that comes up. Perhaps, that is due to memories come flooding back and they weren’t ready to be hit with a LIST of memories. Oh, we feel free to post a particular memory that is bothering us, or something we just remembered, but to make a list for you of ALL the things Chris C was involved with would (in my opinion only) very irresponsible of me.
What if there is a new person to the board from the Sarasota program reading this and my list FLOODS his/her memory and they can't handle it.
I know that sounds strange but I know the survivors that I am friends with, we DON’T do that. Simply, out of consideration for the ones just coming around.  If someone doesn’t remember something and we do, we don't tell them. I believe they will remember when they are ready. I am in NO WAY implying that anyone else should do that or even that my friends and I are right about handling it that way. Maybe we are not, maybe doing that does more harm than good.. Each one of us has to decide for themselves how we are friends with survivors. Just like me, some memories or emotions I have dealt with, others are just too deep for me to deal with at the time.
Also, there are kinda 2 survivors here, those of us that have been "out" a long time (that’s what we call it).
It means there may be some of us that started the looking straight up on the net, or seeking out others survivors to talk to and healing process years ago.
There are others survivors that have just started looking straight up or just beginning the healing process. We say they haven’t been "out" very long.
We try hard to be there for them, cut them some slack because it is a VERY RUDE awakening when the memories start coming back for them.
Now, that doesn’t mean that even today many of us that have been on the boards for years or have many survivor friends now don’t have days where we remember things that are painful, some very painful.

If you would like me to go through the incidents with you through email or something I am happy to if you think it would help you. I remember a lot about you. In fact, in the program we were friends. You and I use to do the skits remember. You were hilarious with that hair. Of course, I remember some other not so pleasant things as well BUT we ALL were involved in that shit, doing things we would never want to, doing things at times very selfishly to save out own skin but we were kids. I know you said you were never part of that but Margaret we ALL were at one time or another, to one degree or another. This includes me. There is woman that works at Sarasota Memorial who I know is furious with me because I sat on her or something the point is for her, she remembers me as someone that hurt her. I would give anything to be able to talk to her, tell her how sorry I am. None of us kids, I don’t think, wanted to hurt anyone. We were all just dealing with hell. Now, there were a few that seem to enjoy it.

About the list I made – It is my list, its how I feel, I am not saying its right for someone else. Although, many votes were cast for Wanda and Chris – kidding sorry- wanted to lighten it up. Anyway, it’s based on my experience.
I hope you find what you’re looking for,
 I wish you peace and if you want to talk I am here.

sorry so long...
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: mh1979 on December 05, 2008, 12:21:05 AM
MARGARET -
I WAS TRYING HARD TO LISTEN TO YOU BUT I HAVE NOT SPOKEN TO YOU IN OVER 25 YEARS AND YOU CALL ME A LIAR.
YOU WERE NOT THERE, YOU WERE NOT IN THAT ROOM, THERE IS NO WAY YOU COULD KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.
AS FOR THE PROGRAM TIME- YOU CALL ME A LIAR , YET YOU SAY YOU HAVE NO ANGER. I DON'T KNOW WHAT I LIED ABOUT IN THE PROGRAM
WHAT I DO KNOW IS WE ALL LIED IN THE PROGRAM, ABOUT THE DRUGS WE DID, THE BIGGER THE LIST THE BETTER THE IMPRESSION, THE WORDS "LOVE YOU"
HUGGING PEOPLE, SAYING WE REALLY WANTED TO BE THERE AND THE LIST GOES ON.
SO IF YOU NEVER LIED IN THE PROGRAM I WOULD VENTURE TO GUESS YOUR THE FIRST.

I SAID WHAT YOU SAID SOUNDED STAFF LIKE, "YOU SEEM STAFF LIKE".
CHANGE ACCORDING TO WHOM I AM AIMING MY ANGER AT??? I havent been on the board in LONG time and I don't come on here and let loose on people. Man, you really don't know me nor have you even spoken to me in 25 years and yet you suddenly think you know all about my life, my motives, what I do. Yes, now I am a bit angry because I tried hard to discuss with it you nicely.
You see  this is just it, someone shares their heart a PAINFUL experience and just like in group it gets ripped to shreds. THAT IS THE OLD WAY.
NO, I am not saying YOU are being unsuportive. What I am saying is that it is presumptious to come on here , out of nowhere, having not seen or talked to me in twenty five years and call me a liar when I devuldge something very painful for me. Something I havent devuldged my anger about in 25 years. It hurt like hell to think about it again.
I have gone into detail what happened. I don;t care if you don't believe feel free to ask those involved.

I know what I have done to fight them, I know what my morals are, I know what I went through, I know the price i paid for fighting and if you think it isnt a high one ask Richard.
The suvivors know what people like Richard , myself, sammy, mike , chris , ginger , and many many others have done to get even a little justice for everyone.
What have you done except call someone a liar and stay in denial by saying "you were never involved in any of those things".

The odd thing is your whole reason you say is because " you couldnt let it go about john k, that you know it couldnt have happened". Really, so you were there the whole time. It isnt possiable that something happened in there that you didn't know about. I guess if Margaret D doesnt remember it , it never happened huh.

You are certain I am lying about it. YOU werent there. Go ahead ask the others. Look its apparent you have a long way to go to deal with what happened and thats cool and normal.
I am not going to do this on the board with you.
If for your peace of mind you need to know its true. Don't take my word for it. Ask the ones involved. Im sure John remembers, I am sure Kim S does too. John was one of the few staff that didnt abuse people personally, he was mild mannered, a bit funny sometimes but I cant change the facts. Now, he was about 16 or 17 at the time so I guess if you want to stretch it , it was not him that was obligated to report it but the Senior and Ex staff. There is also Chris C who came in the room to break up the fight if you want to ask him.

Forgive my anger but I am stunned that you would come on and presume to know me , my feelings, my motives and tell me what happened to ME what happened and didnt happen to Me in the program. I am sorry that it stunned you, I am sorry if I blew an image you had of john, but the facts are the facts. I will say this John was mild mannered, funny at times and didnt abuse people physically himself at least not that I remember. But his decision those two days, were huge, effected some for life , like that kid and they were the wrong choice. How many times did staff ALMOST EVERY staff order people to be sat on? He was a part of that, sorry but he was. The only lee way I will give him is that he was under age and
YOU NEED TO REMEMBER THAT WHEN I POSTED TO JK, IT WAS IN RESPONSE TO A STAFF MEMBER POSTING - I HAVE NO REGRETS - DID IT GET WORSE AFTER I LEFT? PURE DENIAL IF THAT JK WAS WHO I THOUGHT. Everything matched but it wasnt and I apologized to the boards jk.
Margaret - you might want to check your facts before you call people a liar, you may also want to have talked to them sometime in the last 25 years before pretending to know them, you might want help all the survivors fight straight and help other victims BEFORE you accuse others who have been in this fight from the begining.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: mh1979 on December 05, 2008, 12:38:15 AM
i guess I didnt get started over from that incident either. I guess I didnt spend another year in the program from that either.
People RARELY forget what got them started over.
Ok, now that , that is settled. I am not going into anymore with you.

I have learned my lesson share your heart on a board of survivors -who should be close as vietnam vets - someone will rip you
apart, call you names etc. Oh wait thats what we did to each other in group. Why should we act any different toward each other now right?
Why not give them what they want.

No thanks, Margaret , I left group A LONG TIME ago.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on December 05, 2008, 08:08:58 AM
Liar Liar pants on fire  ::)

I can barely remember what I did yesterday...much less three decades ago (which sounds better than 30 years ago).

Recalling conversations verbatim is difficult, to say the least. Calling someone a liar is, well, persumptious. Ok, we all lied as was mentioned above. Not forgiving a person for such lies and then aparently harboring specific memories or impressions of a person as a liar...can I go as far to say is prejudice? Can not a person after having gone thru three decades of memories, nightmares amoungst a host of other fucked up bullshit, can't this person be giving the benifit of the doubt....especially after all the time has gone by?

Certain events however are a horse of a completely different color. Not only can I remember words, tone, facial expressions and of course consequences. These are perminately embedded in the forfront of my conciousness. I have no doubt that people wont recall circumstances as they occured the same way I do. Simply put, no one else has or had the same perspective as I had and have. Tolerence of such recall is something not to be trivialized. These memories of mine are mine and mine alone. I would be mortally insulted if the memories were critizied and I would be publicly labled as a Liar. It is not unlike being in "group" telling the truth, opening up, bearing my soul, exposing my throat and handling a sharp blade. It was cruel, it was horror, it was an atrocity for each of us.

Yes, this is what we were trained to do. Rip each other to shreads...for sport. It wasnt done out of love, or compassion, it was a survival technique. Look for a weakness, exploit the weakness and step over the dead bodies to improve our chances at survival....and get the fuck out.

Two monks walked along a path and came to a river. Beside the river the monks found a woman crying and clearly distraught. One of the monks offered to carry the woman safely to the otherside, which she accepted. Once on the otherside they parted ways. About a mile down the path, the other monk ridiculed the generious monk for having physical contact with a female. The generious monk thought briefly and said, "I carried her ten feet....you have carried her for over a mile now"

Margret-vs-Margret

Trust each other, one may not like what the other has said. Perhaps, maybe, could be a possibility that one person saw a diferent facet to JK's personality....and it is a distinct possiblity that JK (like most of us, hide many facets of his personality...for obvious reasons) Who knows perhaps there was a crush on JK and these memories coming to the surface don't jive with the memories of an adolescent crush....and so one strikes out at a percieved threat to a "precious memory"...it could happen.

What was done to us, needn't happen to us again. Yes, we were trained to do such things....but seriously....how's that working out for us? It didn't work then....we paid dearly to learn this. Now, why would we want to continue doing as trained when we know....beyond a shadow of a doubt, that it didn't/doesn't work? This will divide us! More than ever we need to "come together" rather than seperate. Straight Inc. had a "divide and conquer (sp)" mentality....insidious! Are we no better now than we were back then? Sometimes, yes, sometimes, no. It I think is the mental/emotional scab we pick at from time to time....why not just let it heal?

Peace is not only possible, but inevitable1
Much Healing
woof
Title: humor
Post by: Froderik on December 05, 2008, 12:16:30 PM
Quote
Two monks walked along a path and came to a river. Beside the river the monks found a woman crying and clearly distraught. One of the monks offered to carry the woman safely to the other side, which she accepted. Once on the other side they parted ways. About a mile down the path, the other monk ridiculed the generous monk for having physical contact with a female. The generous monk thought briefly and said, "I carried her ten feet....you have carried her for over a mile now"
An attractive woman gets pulled over for speeding and figures that she will rely on her charms to spare her from getting ticketed like she always has in the past. Much to her chagrin, she discovers that the officer is not a vulnerable creature of the male species, but a smokin' hot blonde chick... Not only THAT -- she also realizes that she left her driver's license at home!

"What the hell am I gonna do now?" she asks herself...

Well the cop asks to see her license and registration, and the hapless woman replies, "Sure...hold on.." and hands over her wallet with a compact mirror opened up inside of it. The blonde officer looks at it and says, "Go ahead, I didn't realize you were a cop..."
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: mh1979 on December 05, 2008, 02:41:19 PM
Thank you woof for your insight. You are right so , Margaret D. if in my post my anger came across as an attack I apologize that IS NEVER what i want to do ever again to any survivor. Woof is right that I need to have patience and understanding with where you are in your well, dare I say recovery (for lack of a better word) from straight. We are all at different levels of dealing with it . One is not better than the other, we are just at different stages.
so, in friendship let me offer this- If you ever need someone to talk to I will be there for you no questions asked and we will chalk this up to a difference of opinion and recognozing that we are at different stages.
I do remember Margaret D that we were friends in there for quite awhile, we did the skyway thing together often, we did the skits together that the group loved.
My goal since leaving there is for us as survivors to be a force that can't be divided by the old tactics of divide and conquer or the "confronting" that was mean spirited and not love.

Think of how powerful and effective we would all be as a group if we worked together, protected each other from them, and were commited to helping each other, being there for each other in a true friendship way. How powerful would we be if when one survivor was attacked by the enemy (like through a lawsuit or a threat ) the enemy got an answer from ALL of us, I mean ALL. How much progress could we make toward justice could we make by working together.

Thankyou Woof for the reminder , I was a little blinded by anger and shock, I should have been more understanding and patient. But that is what we are here for , to help each other right?
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on December 06, 2008, 06:46:20 AM
Quote from: "mh1979"
Thank you woof for your insight. You are right so , Margaret D. if in my post my anger came across as an attack I apologize that IS NEVER what i want to do ever again to any survivor. Woof is right that I need to have patience and understanding with where you are in your well, dare I say recovery (for lack of a better word) from straight. We are all at different levels of dealing with it . One is not better than the other, we are just at different stages.
so, in friendship let me offer this- If you ever need someone to talk to I will be there for you no questions asked and we will chalk this up to a difference of opinion and recognozing that we are at different stages.
I do remember Margaret D that we were friends in there for quite awhile, we did the skyway thing together often, we did the skits together that the group loved.
My goal since leaving there is for us as survivors to be a force that can't be divided by the old tactics of divide and conquer or the "confronting" that was mean spirited and not love.

Think of how powerful and effective we would all be as a group if we worked together, protected each other from them, and were commited to helping each other, being there for each other in a true friendship way. How powerful would we be if when one survivor was attacked by the enemy (like through a lawsuit or a threat ) the enemy got an answer from ALL of us, I mean ALL. How much progress could we make toward justice could we make by working together.

Thankyou Woof for the reminder , I was a little blinded by anger and shock, I should have been more understanding and patient. But that is what we are here for , to help each other right?

MH --- Samyutta Nikaya said "The worse of the two is he who, when abused, retaliates. One who does not retaliate wins a battle hard to win."

In physical,verbal or now, written retaliation, you would had become like the abuser, it becomes a lose-lose situation. So do you let yourself be bullied? No! Stand up for the Truth, defend with the Truth, with Compassion and Wisdom. With nothing more or less.

We all trudge about this planet, like walking wounded. Most of us are deeply and profoundly scarred. The horror, the brainwashing, the abuse and all the hell that went with it...we went thru....and continue to go thru. No thinking individual would not wish for justice. Our time is up, judicially speaking...statutes of limitations and all. Yet there is a justice that we dont control (not that we have any control of the current judical system) I speak of karmatic justice.

Karma will deliver justice, yes, eventually, with or without you. But sometimes, justice can be delivered through you. However, I do not think this can be achieved by our own mental/physical/psychological efforts. When a friend comes to another for some situation or another...we open our mouths not knowing what to say...and find ourselves talking and talking and talking. Later the friend says thanks for your kind words and how much they meant to them, how it effected them etc. How often have we found that we couldnt recall anything we said, the sequence of the words or any other thing about the words. They simply rolled out. All we can really know is the intent inwhich we spoke. I believe we become a channel for that Karmatic Justice. With or without our consent. Kinda like nature, it's magistic, and awe inspiring! (But Mother Nature can be a cold hearted disfiguring bitch as well)  Watch a beautifull sunset, or soon to happen here a sun rise. As an artist I am simply blown away by the beauty....and then to realize that all this is because of just one light source, in 3-D and it's animated...really, it is simply fucking-amazing. And so have confidence in karmic justice then, and have the right sense of justice (of which volumes could be written simply from our own introspection). Delivering justice with Compassion and Wisdom is the way of the Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed, Black Elk, Lao Tsu, the Dali Lama, Mother Theresa and scores of other enlightened teachers. Each of these teachers trascended thier "religions"...they went beyond the top of the class! They each taught we also can transcend our own religion...of hate, anger, resentment, retaliations and attacks....If, as they all said, we simply had a desire to and were willing to go beyond what we are normaly, typically capable of.

The use of ingenious, skillful means, to help sentient beings is the way of these great teachers. Lets call it "spiritual creativity". The realisation, that as many kinds of delusion (confusions, misunderstandings, false memories, and real, haunting memories) there are, there are as many means, appropriate to eradicate them. It is the implementation of Wisdom with Compassion, and soon the manifestation of Wisdom with Compassion follows. Yet I am convinced there has to be no small degree of willingness to be "spiritually creative". This has to be coveted like a thief infront of a thin viel...and on the other side of the viel are treasures beyond measure.

And of course we are human our aim is often high, honorably so...yet often we can loose sight of this and quickly spiral into a seething cauldron of anger, rage, hate and worse, apathy. When I come to re-cognize this is my situation, I simply stop....not always in a gracfull manner. It could be a fifty yard skid, with all the junk in the back seat hurling forward...Takes a moment to gather my senses....am I ok?...Yes, by grace I am ok Was anyone else hurt before I hit the brakes? As I skidded, did I hurt anyone? If so...tend to it. If not, then back to the efforts of being "spiritualy creative".

And yes Margret.....that is what we are here for (vast majority anyway) to help each other!

Continued Healing!
In Peace
woof
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2008, 08:53:43 AM
Yes, I agree, we are here to help eachother and we all have the common thread of having gone through something most people will never  understand. But please tell me why it seems to be ok to say anything you want about someone, even if it's not true, simply because you are a straight survivor?? Are you guys for real???
MH gave sworn testimony, available for anyone to see on the internet, that the situations she says happened with John K. happened with Chris C.
I wonder how any of you would feel if someone came here and said things about you that weren't true. Would you all still be supportive to the person who trashed you because they were a fellow survivor?
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2008, 09:31:02 AM
Quote from: "this is disturbing"
Yes, I agree, we are here to help eachother and we all have the common thread of having gone through something most people will never  understand. But please tell me why it seems to be ok to say anything you want about someone, even if it's not true, simply because you are a straight survivor?? Are you guys for real???
MH gave sworn testimony, available for anyone to see on the internet, that the situations she says happened with John K. happened with Chris C.
I wonder how any of you would feel if someone came here and said things about you that weren't true. Would you all still be supportive to the person who trashed you because they were a fellow survivor?


I would have to agree with the above post.  It seems mh1979 is the end all be all.  First, "facts" are stated which are rebutted as being false in a given timeline.  Mh1979 disagrees and begins a lengthy verbal assault which begins to soften as she is again challenged.  Still, lashing out mh1979 then decides that we should all get along and be supportive.  Yoda also chimes in quotes obscure proverbs to support mh1979.  If mh1979 decides the truth is how she recalls it, then its gospel.  Everyone's memories fade; even yours mh1979 despite all your efforts.  You have no need to defend your actions against straight; they speak for themselves.  But a little humility to say maybe you don't recall something that occurred 20 something years ago is okay.  I do not know about the sworn affidavit, but if that's true, mh1979 perhaps you should take a second and think before throwing out "facts" that are emotional responses to someone else's recollection.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2008, 10:49:54 AM
Something similar, recollection-wise happened to me a couple years ago on another board. I know damn well what happened, there's even witnesses, blah blah blah, but someone who supposedly had a memory of stainless steel #206 (non-rustable) was convinced I was wrong. It's possible that minds turn things around to suit logical or other types of what we think are memories. Who knows? did you tape it? no? well, whatever, it's over now. I lost that fellow survivor as an acquaintance/friend over memory of how shit happened vs what really happened etc... group this group that, fuck group! group's gone. Whatever, no wonder so many people have killed themselves. Damn if you do, damned if you don't. Can you change it? no? ok, case closed. Don't ruin your life now cuz of this bullshit you can't change.

BTW... woof, I'm the monk who carries many miles, but that's surely a cool 'proverb'.

MTS
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 06, 2008, 04:59:58 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "this is disturbing"
Yes, I agree, we are here to help eachother and we all have the common thread of having gone through something most people will never  understand. But please tell me why it seems to be ok to say anything you want about someone, even if it's not true, simply because you are a straight survivor?? Are you guys for real???
MH gave sworn testimony, available for anyone to see on the internet, that the situations she says happened with John K. happened with Chris C.
I wonder how any of you would feel if someone came here and said things about you that weren't true. Would you all still be supportive to the person who trashed you because they were a fellow survivor?


I would have to agree with the above post.  It seems mh1979 is the end all be all.  First, "facts" are stated which are rebutted as being false in a given timeline.  Mh1979 disagrees and begins a lengthy verbal assault which begins to soften as she is again challenged.  Still, lashing out mh1979 then decides that we should all get along and be supportive.  Yoda also chimes in quotes obscure proverbs to support mh1979.  If mh1979 decides the truth is how she recalls it, then its gospel.  Everyone's memories fade; even yours mh1979 despite all your efforts.  You have no need to defend your actions against straight; they speak for themselves.  But a little humility to say maybe you don't recall something that occurred 20 something years ago is okay.  I do not know about the sworn affidavit, but if that's true, mh1979 perhaps you should take a second and think before throwing out "facts" that are emotional responses to someone else's recollection.


Thank you.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Woof-a-Doof on December 07, 2008, 09:16:40 AM
Ok...I will try to address the three folks who commented most recently. And since I read them all at once I will address them all at once. So to, "this is disturbing", "Guest" and "Made to Sit" please bear with me. My only free time to read and compose is early in the morning 5am to about 7am...as such, my own memory, perceptions and insights maybe be drastically effected mearly because of the hours that I write. Then please consider I await the surge of caffine to enter my bloodstream and soon the daily medications will kick in...so with all that in mind....cut me a lil slack as I try to work thru this....if only for my own benifit.

Yes...and I still don't know the truth of the matter. I am not sure at the moment what the hub-bub tween Margret & Marget is about. Shit, it took a week before I knew who JK was/is.  The question was brought up, "why it seems to be ok to say anything you want about someone, even if it is not true, simply because you are a Straight survivor?"

Ok, maybe you can help....what was said, will you show a link to the conversation and the subsequent comments that brings you to this question? Addressing the question "Are you guys for real?"...Sure, with memories that are crystal clear along with lapses of time and memory during my incarceration at Straight Inc. If I have a memory of an incident and it is crystal clear, what am I supossed to do with it? Swallow it? Carry it to my grave? Get with a priest? Parents arent a good choice. I haven ever had a discussion about Straight Inc. with my mother or father that ended well.. Where do I go?

Alas, a forum is formed, unmoderated. And I have the capasity to say exactly what I am feeling, faces I am seeing, names as I recall them. As far as I know, I have a freedom here to speak...admittedly, I maybe wrong in regard to names, faces, dates and circumstances. I know this about myself, so I tend to write and discuss emotions, which certainly are not facts and I don't pretend for them to be presented as such. There are moments of clarity and when I write in a moment of lucid thought...names, faces, events, circumstances, witnesses and circumstances are as if they occured moments ago. Yet I still tend to write with an emotive style...I don't plan to write and disclose a name in a flipant manner, however the best of intentions when I sit to write go far astray and names/circumstances end up in black and white.

Now I know my memory is shot way the fuck out (obviously an understatement), due to time that has passed, alot of ETOH (which I havent had in well over a decade) and alot of THC. Any one who knows me well knows this. If I tell you I am not absolutely sure of something...I will tell you...I am not absolutely sure. If I say to you...I know this for fact...Its fact. Having others that have a better recall of the implied events, memories,

conversations...I make it a point to talk with them. And names are important also...convience is one thing, putting a name to a memory...capturing a face that goes to a name.  Personally, I draw a line tween phasers and staff. I will make effort to poorly type a person like [email protected] @nderson. Even with that, I often feel awkward. But staff members I have no objection, zilch, nothing...no hesitation.

For example, Doug Heminger. Perhaps he has changed, however, he was a sadistic, cruel and evil bastard that loved what he did. Now I know many people will tend to agree with me, and thats ok...and possibly those who disagree, and thats ok. Now, another staff member who rose thru the ranks, Dave McAdams. He was my new comer, I liked him, I thought he was funny. I never saw a streak of meanness in him. Yet there are people who will disagree with me...and thats ok as well. They are my memories and people have said other things about Dave McAdams that dont mesh with my memories of him. This does not make my memories false, nor does it make any others asserations about Dave McAdams false either. I have a friend on here, who was my very first oldcommers roommate...Sam Kinison. He and I have an unspoken agreement to agree to disagree.

Case in point Dave Crock. Sam's memory of Dave Crock and experience with Dave Crock is very different from my own. I hate him, Dave Crock that is and the other side of the coin shows that Sam really has fond memories of Dave Crock. Who is wrong? Who is right? Which is a correct recollection...and which is a false recollection....neither/both? This has nothing to do with the title of being a "Straight Inc Survivor". But everything to do with experiance, perception and memory. As I am entitled to my memories, Sam also is entitled to his memories.  Now if he spoke of Dave Crock in a way that does not coincide with my own memories....this does not make my friend Sam a liar. And the opposite is also true. If spew my rage against Dave Crock and it doesn't jive with Sam's memory, this does not make me a liar. Sam and I understand perceptual diferrances, differrnces in experiances, that memories have loope holes and that over three decades memory by it's very own nature begins to do funy things even with the most crystalized of memories.

Which brings up the point of your countering MH "sworn testimony" by saying it wasn't JK, that it was Chris C.  Haveing said this before, I run the risk of being redundant...Once I know the truth, I have to ask myself if I really know the truth. And obviously, no, I do not know the truth, but only versions and perceptions of the truth. Now to me, switching blame from a "sworn testimony" and adding a third party only muddies the waters. And sheds no light on the subject at all, it only obfuscates(sp...and I think thats the right word) the situation. Am I to now assume that it was Chris C?. Again, I dont know anything about the incident....could never find it...tired of looking for it....so, from the get-go I have no clue. I am told the truth and then informed of another truth. I am no judge, nor a jury...it would take a act of congress to allow me to be either one. However, I am, as we all are, in a unique position to listen to both sides.

"How would I feel if someone came here and said things about me that weren't true. Would I still be supportive to the person who trashed me because they were a fellow survivor?"

Fair question. Lemme see if I can explain how I tend to handel it. Some one comes and says "Woof wears a red shirt, and is still wearing it." When I look at the facts, I see I am wearing a green shirt. In an effort to set the record straight (no pun) I inform this person that no, I am not wearing a red shirt. Fact is, I am wearing a green shirt. Same person refuses my explaination and again swears about the red shirt. Again, I review the facts, I am wearing a green shirt...does it warrant a second explaination on the board that in fact I am partial to green and am wearing a green shirt? Perhaps...sometimes I can be very passionate about the fact...I am wearing a green shirt. At what point does the conversation, dialouge or debate become moot? Is it worth it, in terms of my own sanity, my internal landscape to be in upheaval in order to convince the other person I am in a Green Shirt? At some point it is a futal effort and I personally have to withdraw or disengage from the debate. Yet maybe that person remembers my parents always brought me in red shirts. As a result, all this person can see me in is a red shirt, just as I was when siting in the middle of the group. But what the hell...three decades have gone by and my tastes have evolved and no longer live with parents that love to put red shirts on my back...I make my own descions now, I changed...and I buy green shirts. And yet the person still smears my name and associates me with red shirts. What can I do? Perhaps this person and I will one day meet, at a gathering or whatever and see me in a green shirt.

Another analogy..short and sweet...A person offers me a heaping handfull of dog shit. He extends his hand and asks me to to take it. I polietly, yet firmly refuse his offering of shit. What becomes of the shit? If they offer and I refuse, they are left with the handfull of shit. After all, it is not my shit, this shit apparently belongs to the rightful owner and so they are left with the handfull of shit. Thier shit, not mine.

My favorite line in the three responces, "Yoda also chimes in quotes obscure proverbs to support mh1979" Perhaps it is self centered of me to assume that "Yoda" was a jab at me. If so, lets review. The quote was "The worse of the two is he who, when abused, retaliates. One who does not retaliate wins a battle hard to win." Seemed appropriate to the circumstance and continues to fit, so I am not sure how or why that may be seen as "supportive" As I read the quote and as I understand the quote, it is not a supportive line. In fact it says just the opposite. Interesting line at the end, "One who does not relatiate wins a battle hard to win". In essence...stand down.

The proverb of the monks was to illustrate that carrying such baggage for extended time, is more troublesome, more cumbersome than the original incident. The proverb was interpreted as "supportive" to mh1979. No, just the opposite. The intent of the proverb of the monks was to gently suggest mh1979 to release the hostility, the anger and the rage. That it may do her more harm than good to dwell over the incident. What may appear as cathartic opportunity for her may backfire and produce results within that she had not anticapated. Yet the question remains for her own health, her own healing...I ask you what I asked in the beging of this post....What do you suggest she do to deal with this memory of said incident?

It was implied, and correctly so, that I support mh1979. I have two horrid memories of incidents involving mh1979. My memory is of a young girl in a real shitty situation...what was done to her, that which I saw with my own eyes was inexcusable. After three decades I carried these memories not sure of the persons name. Recently, these memories and the name associated with the memories were confirmed...the young girl abused was indeed mh1979. I was helpless in both situations to help or to even lend moral support. I don't feel guilt as a general rule. But I carried this guilt for over three decades now. mh1979 released me from the bondage of this guilt.

We may not have seen each other in three decades, I wouldnt know her if I were to walk past her on the street or even to sit across from her in a coffee shop. But a bond has been formed tween us...so to that extent, yes, absolutely, without a doubt I support mh1979. Because now I can! I understand she is subject to memory lapse as much as I am...I have made no effort to confirm her statements or deny them...it is none of my buisiness. But does she have my support as a "Straight Survivor" to another "Straight Survivor" abso-fucking-lutely!

I cant involve myself with the situation of the "incident"...I wasn't there...I support a human being, with all the frailties of my own and dare I say...the frailties we all have. If that can't be seen as simple compassion for another human being, a "Straight Survivor"...then the problem of sight is not mine, but your own. Oddly enuff, I have a certain compassion for that as well.

Made to Sit---  Ya brought up valid points on memories and faith in those memories. We tend to cling to what we believe to be true, based on memories. Memories, in general I think should be questioned, investigated and brought out into the daylite. Some memories like you mentioned, "we know damn well what happened" iron clad kinda memories. With out sounding contridictory (sp) I also believe it is possible that minds turn things around to suit logical (reasoning) or other types of what we think are memories. Convoluted memories make an excellent defence mechanisim, built for survial of our sanity. But this does not discount all memories as bullshit defence mechs. Your right, damned if ya do, damned if ya dont. Cant change it, couldnt rearrange it....so there it was..

Apologies for the long winded post. There is an undercurrent of hostility and I felt it need be addressed. There is no right, or wrong here in my eyes, only neutral. There is however a need I see to be right and the willingness to battle over this need to be right...at the expense of others. I have to ask myself sincerly would I rather be right, or happy. Vast majority of the time, I would rather be happy, than right. It is not my wish to stomp on any toes, or to pee on anyones parade and diffinately dont want to piss anyone off by expressing my opinions here as I have. I have written these words...

In Peace
woof

PS: The Yoda comment...sharp, wee bit sarcastic, timely.....yet very witty and funny...brought a smile to my face....not sure if that was the intent, but thats how it was percieved. Thanks for your candor!
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on December 08, 2008, 11:59:51 AM
aw cmon MR D you were in straight ,youve been called MUCH worse....... :nods: check pms :seg:
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: seamus on December 08, 2008, 12:08:42 PM
Wasnt it STRAIGHTS job to kick the fuck out of us? So um... why do we kick the fuck out of each other? somebody tell  Josey Wales the war is over,nobody understnds us but us,why fuck that up.Heres a concept, what if it was "us against them" insted of "us against us"? :nods:
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 08, 2008, 08:28:11 PM
Come on now, us vs. us and us vs them... is a very different pill to swallow when one of "us" is remembering something that just does not jive time line wise.

Woof...I have read your posts over the years and enjoyed your insight, but the green/ red shirt example just doesn't work here.
If, during a specific time line where I knew you, someone  made  posts about you being abusive and doing horrible things that could not have happened because you were not there at the time...would you still be ok with what that person said....simply because they were a fellow programee??? I don't think so. Memory fades..this is true for all of us, but when you give sworn testimony where you name a specific person and a very specific incident...and then later, you change the name, for whatever reason, but the incidents remains the same...something just isn't right.

There is no war here... no hidden hostility or anger and certainly no Margaret vs. Margaret.
My comments were based on what MH has said in her sworn testimony. Am I wrong to bring that up? Does that make me staff like?
I actually think that makes me an individual that's not afraid to speak the truth, which is something we were never encouraged to do while we were held captive.

I wish peace and healing for all of us...but I will not step aside and be silent  when I hear something that quite simply...isn't true.
I remember being crushed for having an opinion that didn't go along with the " group think" mentality.
Thankfully, I'm not afraid anymore.

Peace and a happy holiday to you all,

Margaret D.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 11, 2008, 10:33:25 PM
The post two up brings up a good point that I must admit , in my shock I didnt think of. Your perception of John may be and obvioulsy is quite different than mine. Yes memories fade but i think all survivors have those few memories that effected them so much it is a picture like we are seeing it today, engrained in our brain.
To say he wasnt there is untrue plain and simple. He was on junior staff , he was there during the time frame. Remember Margaret I came in before you and didnt leave until 1982 so he was absolutely there during that time. You have to remember i was there longer than anyone had been at the time. Take a look carefully at what I wrote. I NEVER said he abused ME. I did say that he and lethas decision on the 14 day refresher disgusted me. Perhaps though it wasnt their decision , perhaps it came down from higher up but the fact is thats what they got.

I myself was disturbed by going over, cried, suffered nightmares a few nights and to be honest you don't forget when you pull a knife on someone especially on someone that prior to that you had no real bad memories of. Letha on the other hand different story.

As for David Crock I have one of those burned in memories that is NOT pleasent of having my face shoved in a drain for hours in the Gandy building, it smelled like shit. I remember him coming by opening the door to the girls bathroom and saying "Had enough". I saw him four years ago, and confronted him. I will never forget that incident either, its burned in my brain.  
Margaret I NEVER said John abused me what I said was he was there , Letha ordered the beating and i failed to comply, john and letha came in, John was just there because he and letha were in charge of morning rap. To say that staff never abused anyone, mentally or physically or say that any of us never did is to just be in denial. We all did. We did what we had to . The point was some enjoyed it, some only did it to survive. I never saw John as one that enjoyed like Richard KNowles.

Look as a survivor, I have always supported the survivors and have nothing to prove. I just cant figure out how you say he was not there. Ask him he will tell you he was on staff , with Letha. Plain and simple. I did lash out Margaret only because I was shocked that another survivor could flat call me a liar having known nothing about me. For me lashing out at you I apologise. I am human

I agree with what I and many others have said before it should be that we help each other not attack each other.  i have done all i can to resolve this with you, I have said when i was wrong , apologised for my anger yet you have conseeded nothing. Thats ok. I appreciate the insight of all the ones that have posted. But I can see that your experience was diffent with him than mine. Of all the staff, John I can honestly say I never saw him abuse anyone. To say that he was perfect or never mentally abused anyone or never failed as staff is to say that there are survivors and staff that are completely innocent. Im not. I dont know any that are. The question again is who enjoyed and got off on the control and who didnt. Which ones of us did it for survival and truly feel guilty about it and given the chance would from our heart apologise.

i hope this helps and ends this. This energy including my own can be better spent helping each other.

Mh1979
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2008, 10:37:51 AM
Quote from: "guest1979"
The post two up brings up a good point that I must admit , in my shock I didnt think of. Your perception of John may be and obvioulsy is quite different than mine. Yes memories fade but i think all survivors have those few memories that effected them so much it is a picture like we are seeing it today, engrained in our brain.
To say he wasnt there is untrue plain and simple. He was on junior staff , he was there during the time frame. Remember Margaret I came in before you and didnt leave until 1982 so he was absolutely there during that time. You have to remember i was there longer than anyone had been at the time. Take a look carefully at what I wrote. I NEVER said he abused ME. I did say that he and lethas decision on the 14 day refresher disgusted me. Perhaps though it wasnt their decision , perhaps it came down from higher up but the fact is thats what they got.

I myself was disturbed by going over, cried, suffered nightmares a few nights and to be honest you don't forget when you pull a knife on someone especially on someone that prior to that you had no real bad memories of. Letha on the other hand different story.

As for David Crock I have one of those burned in memories that is NOT pleasent of having my face shoved in a drain for hours in the Gandy building, it smelled like shit. I remember him coming by opening the door to the girls bathroom and saying "Had enough". I saw him four years ago, and confronted him. I will never forget that incident either, its burned in my brain.  
Margaret I NEVER said John abused me what I said was he was there , Letha ordered the beating and i failed to comply, john and letha came in, John was just there because he and letha were in charge of morning rap. To say that staff never abused anyone, mentally or physically or say that any of us never did is to just be in denial. We all did. We did what we had to . The point was some enjoyed it, some only did it to survive. I never saw John as one that enjoyed like Richard KNowles.

Look as a survivor, I have always supported the survivors and have nothing to prove. I just cant figure out how you say he was not there. Ask him he will tell you he was on staff , with Letha. Plain and simple. I did lash out Margaret only because I was shocked that another survivor could flat call me a liar having known nothing about me. For me lashing out at you I apologise. I am human

I agree with what I and many others have said before it should be that we help each other not attack each other.  i have done all i can to resolve this with you, I have said when i was wrong , apologised for my anger yet you have conseeded nothing. Thats ok. I appreciate the insight of all the ones that have posted. But I can see that your experience was diffent with him than mine. Of all the staff, John I can honestly say I never saw him abuse anyone. To say that he was perfect or never mentally abused anyone or never failed as staff is to say that there are survivors and staff that are completely innocent. Im not. I dont know any that are. The question again is who enjoyed and got off on the control and who didnt. Which ones of us did it for survival and truly feel guilty about it and given the chance would from our heart apologise.

i hope this helps and ends this. This energy including my own can be better spent helping each other.

Mh1979

Please see previous post below:

Re: St.Pete straight 1979
by Guest on 03 Dec 2008, 23:15

Margaret, this is John that responded. At the beginning when I found this site you are correct, I did have no regrets. I was thinking only of my self and not seeing what my actions did even though they did not compare to the violence the staff members put you and others through. Someone in one thread made an analogy which really sunk in to me. While I thought I was extending a hand to help people, my other hand was being controlled by Straight. While my intentions were to help, I was actually continuing doing nothing more than carrying out what Straight wanted me to. All the "tools" I thought I had to help were not mine but Straights. In my heart I truly wanted to help people and still to this day, I just couldn't see I was not helping at the time. I do apologize for those actions and there is no excuse for them. However, the things and situations you accused me of in your post are simply not true as I explained in my previous response. While I am guilty of perpetuating the Straight philosophy while I was on staff, I was never physical with anyone and never could or would order someone to be beaten. I had seen enough after the open meeting scene I described and left to move on with my life. Should I have questioned things more? Absolutely, but I cannot change that now and feel terrible for the horrendous things you and others went through and still go through to this day. I understand you being angry at me for being on staff and being a part of this nightmare. I doubt I can change that but if I could I would.

Sorry to you and to all.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2008, 02:49:36 PM
Link to the child abuser/molester Scott Patterson

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... D=21072468 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=3&From=list&SessionID=21072468)

Let  him rot in hell!
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 17, 2008, 11:04:30 PM
Quote from: "Guest"
Quote from: "guest1979"
The post two up brings up a good point that I must admit , in my shock I didnt think of. Your perception of John may be and obvioulsy is quite different than mine. Yes memories fade but i think all survivors have those few memories that effected them so much it is a picture like we are seeing it today, engrained in our brain.
To say he wasnt there is untrue plain and simple. He was on junior staff , he was there during the time frame. Remember Margaret I came in before you and didnt leave until 1982 so he was absolutely there during that time. You have to remember i was there longer than anyone had been at the time. Take a look carefully at what I wrote. I NEVER said he abused ME. I did say that he and lethas decision on the 14 day refresher disgusted me. Perhaps though it wasnt their decision , perhaps it came down from higher up but the fact is thats what they got.

I myself was disturbed by going over, cried, suffered nightmares a few nights and to be honest you don't forget when you pull a knife on someone especially on someone that prior to that you had no real bad memories of. Letha on the other hand different story.

As for David Crock I have one of those burned in memories that is NOT pleasent of having my face shoved in a drain for hours in the Gandy building, it smelled like shit. I remember him coming by opening the door to the girls bathroom and saying "Had enough". I saw him four years ago, and confronted him. I will never forget that incident either, its burned in my brain.  
Margaret I NEVER said John abused me what I said was he was there , Letha ordered the beating and i failed to comply, john and letha came in, John was just there because he and letha were in charge of morning rap. To say that staff never abused anyone, mentally or physically or say that any of us never did is to just be in denial. We all did. We did what we had to . The point was some enjoyed it, some only did it to survive. I never saw John as one that enjoyed like Richard KNowles.

Look as a survivor, I have always supported the survivors and have nothing to prove. I just cant figure out how you say he was not there. Ask him he will tell you he was on staff , with Letha. Plain and simple. I did lash out Margaret only because I was shocked that another survivor could flat call me a liar having known nothing about me. For me lashing out at you I apologise. I am human

I agree with what I and many others have said before it should be that we help each other not attack each other.  i have done all i can to resolve this with you, I have said when i was wrong , apologised for my anger yet you have conseeded nothing. Thats ok. I appreciate the insight of all the ones that have posted. But I can see that your experience was diffent with him than mine. Of all the staff, John I can honestly say I never saw him abuse anyone. To say that he was perfect or never mentally abused anyone or never failed as staff is to say that there are survivors and staff that are completely innocent. Im not. I dont know any that are. The question again is who enjoyed and got off on the control and who didnt. Which ones of us did it for survival and truly feel guilty about it and given the chance would from our heart apologise.

i hope this helps and ends this. This energy including my own can be better spent helping each other.

Mh1979

Please see previous post below:

Re: St.Pete straight 1979
by Guest on 03 Dec 2008, 23:15

Margaret, this is John that responded. At the beginning when I found this site you are correct, I did have no regrets. I was thinking only of my self and not seeing what my actions did even though they did not compare to the violence the staff members put you and others through. Someone in one thread made an analogy which really sunk in to me. While I thought I was extending a hand to help people, my other hand was being controlled by Straight. While my intentions were to help, I was actually continuing doing nothing more than carrying out what Straight wanted me to. All the "tools" I thought I had to help were not mine but Straights. In my heart I truly wanted to help people and still to this day, I just couldn't see I was not helping at the time. I do apologize for those actions and there is no excuse for them. However, the things and situations you accused me of in your post are simply not true as I explained in my previous response. While I am guilty of perpetuating the Straight philosophy while I was on staff, I was never physical with anyone and never could or would order someone to be beaten. I had seen enough after the open meeting scene I described and left to move on with my life. Should I have questioned things more? Absolutely, but I cannot change that now and feel terrible for the horrendous things you and others went through and still go through to this day. I understand you being angry at me for being on staff and being a part of this nightmare. I doubt I can change that but if I could I would.

Sorry to you and to all.



I never said that John K. wasn't in straight, and if you read what I wrote, I said that I knew him both during and after the program which I think makes it pretty clear that he was there. What I said was the situation that you blamed on him, which you previously in sworn testimony said happened with Chris C., could not have been him because he had already left and was AWAY AT COLLEGE.
I'm sorry, but it's wrong to post a persons name in a attempt to smear them when you are uncertain about who those encounters actually happened with. It seems that smearing is what you're after though, why else would you want people to posts their parents names and names of other parents so that they would be publicly embarrassed if someone was to search that name on the internet.
I'm not even going to try and address the many statements that you directed at me, which quite frankly didn't make any sense, because you went off on rants about other people and situations that we weren't even talking about, so there doesn't seem to be much point. The only thing I will say to you though is that I hope you can find some peace.
MD
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2008, 02:32:00 AM
Hi John,

There are still a few of us around with accurate memories of  you and the kind of young man you were when we were in straight. :)

Do you remember a few years back where I told you I was going??
Still here and loving every day of it! It's never boring that's for sure!

If you still have my email, drop me a line and let me know how life is for you. I won't my email address here again...for obvious reasons ;)

Wishing  you and your family a Merry Christmas and a very Happy New Year!

Be well my friend,

Margaret D.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 19, 2008, 04:55:41 PM
Quote from: "Old Man From St Pete"
Link to the child abuser/molester Scott Patterson

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... D=21072468 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=3&From=list&SessionID=21072468)

Let  him rot in hell!

Let's try this again...the links don't seem to last that long.  Either way, you can find him on the www.dc.state.fl.us (http://www.dc.state.fl.us)   website...look for offender search.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... =449643400 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=3&From=list&SessionID=449643400)
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 20, 2008, 08:32:50 AM
Quote from: "Old Man From St. Pete"
Quote from: "Old Man From St Pete"
Link to the child abuser/molester Scott Patterson

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... D=21072468 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=3&From=list&SessionID=21072468)

Let  him rot in hell!

Let's try this again...the links don't seem to last that long.  Either way, you can find him on the http://www.dc.state.fl.us (http://www.dc.state.fl.us)   website...look for offender search.

http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... =449643400 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=3&From=list&SessionID=449643400)



Find who?
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 22, 2008, 02:59:00 PM
Scott Patterson - child molester
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on December 24, 2008, 12:40:25 PM
Latest access to Scott


http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates ... =145566857 (http://www.dc.state.fl.us/ActiveInmates/detail.asp?Bookmark=3&From=list&SessionID=145566857)
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Antigen on December 24, 2008, 08:29:17 PM
First, thanks, Marti, for all the high praise n awl, but you give me way too much credit. I have not been fighting this since day one. I split. When asked to give testimony I passed on the option. When invited to join in the lawsuit a couple years later, again I passed. It really didn't start to sink in how harmful the program was till many years later. At the time I split, I had one object in mind; to get the fuck out of that place and never look back and hope that I could regain my sanity. I didn't 'see' a lot of what went on there. I took in only enough to be able to say my lines if called on then immediately forgot it. The thing about what happened to Bobby R. is that, for some damned reason, the illusion fell away for a few minutes. That was the clarifying moment that led me to understand that I did NOT know what the fuck was going on around me and that I had to get out as a matter of self preservation. Then I got so busy just surviving that I never did get back to doing anything decent or human about the whole thing till almost 2 decades later.

And here's my point. My good friend Che didn't know he was a bad guy till a good long while off the planet (for all intents and purposes). My dad didn't know what he was doing to all his kids either, he thought he was a hero. Even after we talked and reached some understanding, it wasn't till a few more years later when he called me bitching about being questioned by police about a murder that he really understood a big part of it. Once he was done telling his story I said "Congratulations, Dad, you've had an intake interview and you passed the first time around."  That is the nature of Program. It warps perception. That's the point of it. No use arguing about it, is there?
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on December 26, 2008, 11:33:00 PM
I stepped shortly before April 1,1979,just in time to catch spring training.I remember that month after finishing as one of the happiest of my life.The first thing I did after my last open meeting as a 5th phaser was stop at a 7-11 and buy a Coke,something I hadn't been able to do for the last 18 months.Having paid for my past sins,I could begin to enjoy a normal life,or so I thought.Unlike so many fakers before me,I never showed any desire to become one with staff office.Knowing so many current and former staffers,I may not  have been sure of what I wanted,but I was damn sure of what I didn't want.I lived long enough under a microscope and opted to sever any continued unnecessary scrutiny.I graduate high school and started  college in Gainesville.I come back for a visit four weeks later and instead of warm embraces,I got the 3rd degree.I guess everybody assumed that I was out partying or something.I thought to myself,"If I was out getting high,the LAST place that I would want to be is here".I severed all ties with Str8 after that.Something to the effect of don't call me and I won't call you.It was amazing how many people from there I stayed in touch with through other venues.I like to take the time to read all of the postings from this thread because it always makes me reflect and many times with positive effects.

Feliz Año Nuevo
Sam
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2008, 06:21:10 AM
Ginger,

First I want to say someone orgianlly posted as me and as not to cause confusion i stuck with 1979 but my intake was April 23 1978, I left Oct 1982
Ginger, the point is NOT when you chose to get involved, the point is you DID. You have done an IMMENSE amount for all survivors and often without knowing it. When you did realize what was wrong you acted, all should be commended for that including you. You have continued the fight no  matter what, requardless of the threats to you, and I can not think of a time when I had a question that you werent there to answer it , if you could. Maybe you don't see your input into this effort as all that great or all that much but the truth is you are a HUGE part of the survivor effort to get justice. Maybe I am nuts but I look at all of us more as war vets who should stick together, pull each other up when we can rather than tear each other down and I like to think that for some of us there is a bond that not even time can break. I have alot of respect for your endurance, and tanacity. There are NO heros amoung survivors , we are all hero's because we survived. We each bring a different talent, ability to the table that has gone a long way to helping each other.
I gave you the credit because you deserve it, you have earned it and I wanted you know that I personally appreciate ALL you have done for all the survivors. To me, you are a fighter, to me the survivors should be appreciative of all you have done because the truth is you didnt have to do any of it but you did. I think we need to focus more on lifting each other up than tearing each other down. Like Sammy, Mike, Chris, Richard, and many others , many things would not have been possiable without you that is just the truth.
Title: Re: Scott Patterson
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2008, 06:30:06 AM
The link above to "Scott Patterson" doesnt look like Scott at all, is this Bretts brother? If so, how do we know,
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Anonymous on December 31, 2008, 06:48:19 AM
Margaret, I am simply going to say this,
Do you know the exact date of the incident with John that I am refering to? No, you don't , so, how could you know or not know that he was away at college?
Were you there? No you were not in that room. So, how could you know who was there and who wasn't?
Have you asked him about the knife incident? NO.
Margaret like it or not ALL of us did things in there we are not proud of either out of survival , sanity or other reasons this includes me, you, and yes John too.

I do have a final question , where were you when I closed the Sarasota program? Were you on staff? I am curious. You say you knew him after the program as well, that would explain your odd defense of him if your relationship was more than friends and I am not saying it was.

I can only reiterate that I find it bizare at best that you would come on the board and start calling peoples memories lies, you seem to want me to vindicate him for leading rap that day. Sorry, I can not do that. As for peace, I found that years ago, my true wish for you is for you to ask yourself why your mind insist that he could not have been there that day.  It is hardly smearing someone to say that they led a rap, when Letha Yost ordered a beating and followed Letha in the room to see why it wasnt done. It is not as if he was accused of rape.
Truly for me , this is not about John. I just find your response bizare as much as i have tried to understand it. All I can think is that either you wwere involved with him or you were on staff when I closed the program. What I do know is you were in the program at the time. I hope you and all of us take a path of helping each other and not this. I only replied this time because I wanted to understand how you could say what you did if you could not answer the questions at the begining of this post. I guess I am trying to understand something that is not understandable. When I say bizare I do not mean it in a cruel way , I mean strange, not able to understand.
Title: Re: St.Pete straight 1979
Post by: Sam Kinison on January 01, 2009, 12:14:14 AM
Scott Patterson is not Brett Patterson's brother.He's Mike Patterson's brother and Bob Patterson's stepbrother.So,now you see why you can't see any resemblance.