12-step bashing

[Pete]

As a survivor of a somewhat warped treatment center and a member of a 12-step program who has been helped tremedously by "the rooms," sometimes it upsets me reading all the anti-12 step philosophy on this site.  While I'm all for free thinking and speech, I think a great many people misunderstand what AA and other 12-step programs were/are intended to be.

AA has NEVER been a money-making enterprise.  It is true that initial members made some money off of initial publications and such and in hindsight that is against tradition.  Furthermore, there may be treatment center, for and not-for profit, abusive and non-abusive, who borrow the AA philosophy, in whole or in part.  AA cannot and does not endorse these programs as it maintains autonomy.  By the same token, because of its policy of non-affiliation, it cannot condemn them either.

Since each group is autonomous and AA is full of alcoholics, who, like other people, can be selfish and egotistical, it is true that a group can pass down thinking and suggestions you might not agree with.  But the wonderful thing about AA is its diversity.  It upsets me to hear that people say "AA told me this" and "AA told me that" because it seems they are referring to a specific member or group of AA, not AA as a whole.  There are some 12-step groups in my area, that, quite frankly, I do not attend because I don't agree with the way of living generally condoned by the majority of the group members.  That's fine.  They've got their program, I've got mine.

AA does not demand you believe anything.  I've  known Buddhists, Christians, Jews, agnostics, atheists and probably people from a million different other religions who have gotten sober.  Even what is written in the literature is but a mere suggestion.  If anyone in AA tries to bully you into their way of living sober, my advice is RUN!  You don't have to do anything.

I don't agree with everything I hear in the rooms.  I don't have to.  I take what I want and leave the rest.

By the same token, I have no objections to people finding ways other than the 12 steps to get sober or merely live a happy life.  But when I hear people say that AA is this way or that way, I feel I owe it to the addicted individual who may one day find "the rooms," to say that AA and other 12-step programs are what you make it.  

I'll also say this (and this is only for me).  The 12 steps helped me a LOT more than Elan!

[ This Message was edited by: Peter Moore on 2004-02-24 10:00 ]

[Cayo Hueso]

I don't have a problem with money with AA.  My problem is more with the fundamentals of it.  I'm glad you believe it helped you.  I really mean that, but there are quite a few of us who believe it serves a much more subverted purpose.  The whole way it began (modeled almost identically after The Oxford Group) and WHO began it (Bill Wilson was a certified lunatic!)give me the creeps in the first place AND it seems to be a place where people like Miller Newton (narcissists) flourish.  They have a steady stream of new victims to manipulate.  It happens WAY more often than you think.  I don't want to get into one of those AA is good/bad debates, but if you're really interested in why so many people seem to be upset with AA....go to the Orange Papers website I posted before.  Pay particular attention to the chapter on the Religious Roots of AA.  Interesting reading.

http://www.orange-papers.org/menu1.html

I just pulled this off that site, thought it was hysterical.


And just when you think you've heard it all, it gets worse.
Ann W. Smith, M.S., C.A.C., has written a "recovery" book for "Adult Grandchildren of Alcoholics" -- "Grandchildren of Alcoholics: another generation of co-dependency". Now you can waste your life in meetings, work Bill's 12 Steps, and confess everything to strangers because Grandpa liked his moonshine.  :rofl:

What kind of humanism expresses its reluctance to sacrifice military casualties by devastating the civilian economy of its adversary for decades to come?  
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0684855674/circlofmiamithem' target='_new'> Henry Kissinger

[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-02-24 11:18 ]

[Pete]

AGOA?  That's pretty bizarre.  I would think that anyone significantly impacted by a grandparent's drinking would just go to ACOA.  But hey, God bless her if it helps her.

I will look at those papers online.  By the way, I agree with you that Bill Wilson was, to say the least, disturbed.  He was notorious for "13th-stepping" newcomers and never really was a true member of AA.  Even his official AA bio states he was never really a member.  But he did pass down a gift to a lot of people.

I once had a discussion with a very long-term member who had heard Bill speak.  She said he was really flat and monotone and did a nice imitation of him.

[Cayo Hueso]

My main problem with it is that it is a virtual breeding ground for wannabe gurus and the potential for abuse of that is staggering.  I think a lot of people in AA are truly looking for a solution to their 'problems' and are not harboring a hidden agenda, BUT......there are so many people that DO abuse it and the entire principals that it was founded on were from a cult.  That's where the mind control comes in.  Most believers of AA say that there is no mind control, you're free to believe what you want or walk out at any time yadda yadda yadda.  In THEORY that may be true but we all know in PRACTICE how AA looks at those who "try to find an easier, softer way".

I hope you do read over that site.  It's long, but I'd be interested to hear what you think.

The worst government is the most moral. One composed of cynics
is often very tolerant and human. But when fanatics are on top,
there is no limit to oppression.

--H.L. Mencken

[Cleopatra2U]

The main thing I dislike about AA is its claim that it is the only way.

My $0.02,
Mindi

[Pete]

I read over some parts of the site.  To be honest, I sympathize with a lot of it.  But some parts really generalize about what members do or do not do.

I have always carried a small resentment toward people who called me a "dry drunk" the first time I tried to get sober for dating a girl in my first year of sobriety.  Although not responsible for my relapse, they sure didn't give me confidence to stay sober.  Of course, at the time, I had no concept of how to treat a woman, but that's another story.

Yes, there are A LOT of "gurus" in 12-step programs and a ton of egos.  Personally, I've done too many fucked up things in sobriety to ever label myself an angel and don't aspire to guru status.  I don't have too many "program friends" in my home group, because I generally go there for a good meeting and little else.  The vast majority of my friends are the softer and gentler type outside my home group.  I also have many friends outside the rooms.

I also serve on a committee that puts on an annual conference for young people in recovery.  Through this conference, we try to carry a message of love and service and little else.  Of course, being young people, some sicker members pass on alternative forms of "love" and "service" at the conference, but those who take it seriously are good, conscientious members.

The program is not the only way.  Those who treat it like a cult are short-changing themselves and others.

I once had a sponsor who told me, "The majority of the people in the program are dry drunks."  I'm not sure if I agree with this but he definitely had a point.  I like to work my program and tell others to butt out.

Cayohuesto, you are right, the potential for abuse is staggering.  But the same is true for the world.  The potential of abuse is staggering everywhere.  Just a few weeks ago, I fired my therapist whom I felt was abusing his position.  We all must be responsible for ourselves and ensure we do not abuse.  I try to stick my hand out to a newcomer and ensure they do not leave disillusioned, feeling they have to return to their compulsions.

I know I've basically broke the anonymity tradition by posting this, but I am not connecting myself to any specific fellowship.  Still, I felt the need to speak up for my own viewpoints.

My advice to anyone trying to get sober is to find your own way.  Maia Szalavitz wrote a great book called "Recovery Options."

The best meeting I ever went to was a gay meeting I mistakenly stumbled into while vacationing in Los Angeles (and I'm not even gay).  I heard spirituality and a lack of judgement and that made my day.

[Pete]

On 2004-02-24 11:54:00, Cleopatra2U wrote:

"The main thing I dislike about AA is its claim that it is the only way.



My $0.02,

Mindi
"

Mindi,

Any individual who told you that couldn't have spoken for AA, only themselves.  Personally, I think they were full of it.  I know of a lot of people who have gotten sober... through AA, RR, Christianity, Straight Edge or just on their own.

Pete

[RTP2003]

I've got more than a few problems with this cult that has endeared itself to so many people.  Cayohuesa has elaborated on a few of the major ones, but I want to bring up a couple more:  The fallacy that a person must "hit bottom" and the almost complete monopoly on treatment options that these cults enjoy.  Like I said in another post, the book "12 Spells and 12 Superstitions" teaches the potential oldcomer, I mean sponsor, to encourage anyone who is having a hard time swallowing Stepcraft to continue drinking/drugging until they "hit bottom" and see the glorious light of the almighty Program.  I believe this has caused much needless suffering.  When you combine those kind of instructions with Stepcraft's insistence that they are the "only" way, and add a person's ignorance of other treatment possibilities (an ignorance reinforced by the Stepcult's infiltration of and virtual monopoly on the treatment industry), you have a recipe for suffering or death, in which case the deceased will serve as a grim reminder of what happens to those who don't "do it the NA way".  You see, when people are at the point where they are seeking help for addiction, they are generally in a confused and vulnerable state.  Mistakenly believing groupsters to be "experts" on "recovery", these people, upon realizing the bullshit nature of  Stepcraft, may still believe some of the other lies the Stepcult has to offer, and believe that their demise is inevitable because they can't or won't follow what they have been led to believe is the "only" alternative to "jails, institutions and death".  The Stepcult is rigged with nifty little self-fulfilling prophecies and inherent contradictions--it cares only for it's own growth and nothing for it's individual members.  It often harms those it claims to be designed to help.  

_"Stay out, 12-Stepper, your lies are not welcome here"________________
Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink

[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2004-02-24 12:16 ]

[Cayo Hueso]

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant. His drunkenness and dissolution are not penalties inflicted by people in authority; they result from his personal disobedience to  spiritual principles.

Twelve Steps and Twelve Traditions, William G. Wilson, page 174.

There lives more faith, in honest doubt,
Believe me, than in half the creeds.
http://www.tatteredcover.com/NASApp/store/IndexJsp?s=showproduct&affiliateId=000095&isbn=0753816571' target='_new'>Alfred Lord Tennyson

[Pete]

Cayo,
I know that quote.  What I think Bill was saying was that those who choose to practice the AA program as their way to get sober had better take it seriously or they will die of alcoholism.

Also the 12 steps are one person's view.  If I'm not mistaken, Bill practically wrote that book by himself.

Back in the 1950s, when the 12&12 was written, there were not the choices that exist today with alcohol treatment.  AA back then WAS essentially the only way, or at least the only widespread way for alcoholics.

AA is for desperate people, plain and simple.  Yes, the degrees of desperation vary, but you've got to be pretty desperate to be willing to work the 12 steps thoroughly and go to all those meetings.  AA is not for irresponsible drinkers, it's for alcoholics.  Those who are drinking irresponsibly can merely stop.

The part of the 12 & 12 that was referenced about "go out and drink" was the suggestion in the first step that states that if you don't think you're an alcoholic, try some controlled drinking, bearing in mind what we've told you about alcoholism.  How else is someone going to figure out whether they're an alcoholic?

Bear in mind, I'm not interested in an argument, but I do believe AA is sometimes unnecessarily bashed for the foolishness of some members.  I mean we didn't tear down Fornits when Nazi came along, did we Cayo?  LOL

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-02-24 12:16:00, Peter Moore wrote:

"Cayo,

Also the 12 steps are one person's view.  If I'm not mistaken, Bill practically wrote that book by himself.

This is part of the problem.  The Big Book was written almost solely by a lunatic.  Everything AA is comes from the Big Book.  It's quoted constantly and consistently in every meeting, it's required reading etc. etc.  All this, an entire movement (what I call a religion) based on the self-serving rantings of a madman :question:  :question:  :exclaim:

Back in the 1950s, when the 12&12 was written, there were not the choices that exist today with alcohol treatment.  AA back then WAS essentially the only way, or at least the only widespread way for alcoholics.

It's still that way now.  If someone goes to therapy, gets arrested or whatever...the "suggesstion", sentence etc. is AA or some derivative.  AA and it's clones are just about the only "approved method of treatment".

AA is for desperate people, plain and simple.  Yes, the degrees of desperation vary, but you've got to be pretty desperate to be willing to work the 12 steps thoroughly and go to all those meetings.  

And therein lies the danger.

Bear in mind, I'm not interested in an argument, but I do believe AA is sometimes unnecessarily bashed for the foolishness of some members.  I mean we didn't tear down Fornits when Nazi came along, did we Cayo?  LOL

"

I don't want to argue either (I ain't playin' the Nazi game  :wink: ) and I can get fairly worked up about this because I believe so strongly in it.  We may have to agree to leave it at that.  Glad you feel it was helpful to you.  


 

To say the drug war is a failure is like saying the Hindenburg was short a few fire extinguishers.
http://mapinc.org/drugnews/v01/n808/a10.html' target='_new'>Carl Hiassen

_________________
St. Pete Straight
early 80s

[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-02-24 12:32 ]

[Pete]

On 2004-02-24 12:01:00, RTP2003 wrote:

"I've got more than a few problems with this cult that has endeared itself to so many people.  Cayohuesa has elaborated on a few of the major ones, but I want to bring up a couple more:  The fallacy that a person must "hit bottom" and the almost complete monopoly on treatment options that these cults enjoy."

Actually it's the treatment centers who have taken the 12-step philosophy, not the 12-step organizations who have created the centers.  There has never been a treatment center endorsed by AA.
 
>>>"Like I said in another post, the book "12 Spells and 12 Superstitions" teaches the potential oldcomer, I mean sponsor, to encourage anyone who is having a hard time swallowing Stepcraft to continue drinking/drugging until they "hit bottom" and see the glorious light of the almighty Program.  I believe this has caused much needless suffering.  When you combine those kind of instructions with Stepcraft's insistence that they are the "only" way,

Where does it state in any CONFERENCE-APPROVED program literature that they are the "only" way?  In fact, Bill once wrote that it would be foolish to think they have a monopoly on the spiritual world, even alcoholism... or something to that effect.
 
>>and add a person's ignorance of other treatment possibilities (an ignorance reinforced by the Stepcult's infiltration of and virtual monopoly on the treatment industry), you have a recipe for suffering or death, in which case the deceased will serve as a grim reminder of what happens to those who don't "do it the NA way".  

Actually there hasn't been enough of a movement from members of other sobriety organizations to do it another way.  But there are treatment places that do it other ways.  Narconon certainly does, for one.  I don't endorse them, but I acknowledge their existence.

>>You see, when people are at the point where they are seeking help for addiction, they are generally in a confused and vulnerable state.  Mistakenly believing groupsters to be "experts" on "recovery", these people, upon realizing the bullshit nature of  Stepcraft, may still believe some of the other lies the Stepcult has to offer, and believe that their demise is inevitable because they can't or won't follow what they have been led to believe is the "only" alternative to "jails, institutions and death".  

That's if you keep drinking and using, not if you find a better treatment option.

>>The Stepcult is rigged with nifty little self-fulfilling prophecies and inherent contradictions--it cares only for it's own growth and nothing for it's individual members.  It often harms those it claims to be designed to help.  

Individuals certainly harm others.  But the programs philosophy doesn't harm them.




_"Stay out, 12-Stepper, your lies are not welcome here"________________

Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink

That's silly.  This is a mature debate.

[Cayo Hueso]

OK, I really don't want to get any further into this because it's pointless.  Don't be so naive/patronizing (can't figure out which) as to say that AA has not introduced itself into treatment centers.  Yes, we've all read the literature stating that AA does not endorse or support etc. etc.  It SAYS that, but htere are no real options presented anyone OTHER than AA or clone.  I don't give a shit HOW it ended up the only recourse or HOW it ended up in treatment centers, the fact that it STILL is just about the only game in town, really pisses me off.  In virtually every single treatment center the aftercare is GO TO AA.  The steps are taught in almost every single center.  Most of the others are "faith-based" which really is no different.  This all bothers me so much because it is MY belief that the BASIC PHILOSOPHY OF AA IS FLAWED AND POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS.  It was developed by a man who had an insatiable need for glory and adulation.  This program is BUILT to feed right into those kinds of agendas.   You end up with a few thousand Miller Newtons running around these rooms and it makes me sick.  Again, that's MY belief.



Don't even get me started on CultsAnon, oooops...I mean Narcanon.

India Indicas, Mr. Peabody?
-- Sherman

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-02-24 12:16:00, Peter Moore wrote


Also the 12 steps are one person's view.  If I'm not mistaken, Bill practically wrote that book by himself.

OK,  let me get this straight.  You agree that Bill Wilson was pretty much a degenerate and a nutjob right?? (and I ain't talking you're run of the mill village idiot, I'm talking fucking certifiable)  You agree that the Big Book is AAs Bible, right??   You agree that the Big Book is basically steps to aid one in dealing with the perils of life, right???

DO YOU NOT SEE A PROBLEM WITH THIS :question:  :question:

We did not inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it form our children.


http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/haida/hapindxe.html' target='_new'>Haida

_________________
St. Pete Straight
early 80s

[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-02-24 13:00 ]

[Pete]

Cayo,

Perhaps you're right about AA introducing itself -- at least in part.  I'd like to think most of it was an individual's honest desire to help others, but it could be something else with some people.

Also, I would have no problem if other organizations created treatment centers.  Hopefully they'd have a lot of checks and balances so they'd be credible and humane.

I would never be patronizing, Cayo.  I respect you way too much and consider you a friend after that stuff on the Elan forum.  

Pete