12-step bashing

[RTP2003]

On 2004-02-24 12:36:00, Peter Moore wrote:


Actually it's the treatment centers who have taken the 12-step philosophy, not the 12-step organizations who have created the centers.  There has never been a treatment center endorsed by AA.

 
**Most of the taxpayer-funded and HMO-approved treatment centers are founded by and staffed by Stepcultists.  It is not erroneous to view them as indoctrination centers.  12 Step meetings were required at the detox facilities I am familiar with.  AA/NA don't endorse particular treatment centers per se, but that is a convenient legal fiction to enable them to swallow tax dollars and insurance money while recruiting new cultists.  If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....**

Where does it state in any CONFERENCE-APPROVED program literature that they are the "only" way?  

 
**Now this is a good example of NA loopholes and doublespeak.  Every meeting I ever attended had the words "only through this Program" said aloud at some point.  Another answer Steppies give when confronted about their claim to a monopoly on recovery is to say that people who break addictions without AA/NA weren't 'real' addicts.**

>>
Actually there hasn't been enough of a movement from members of other sobriety organizations to do it another way.  .


**I think you are absolutely right

Individuals certainly harm others.  But the programs philosophy doesn't harm them.


**Many of the Stepcult's concepts debase freewill and human dignity in and of themselves.  The program's nature, structure, and growth inherently lends itself to abuse and corruption by unscrupulous individuals, in addition to the many other flaws in it.





_"Stay out, 12-Stepper, your lies are not welcome here"________________


Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink



That's silly.

 This is a mature debate.

**No, it's not silly .  You cultists have done enough harm, you road-to-hell-paving good intentionists.  Ask anyone who's been court-ordered to your Indoctrination Centers and  Groupthink Sessions.  Ask people who have lost family, friends, and freedom due to both your cult and it's members.  

[Pete]

On 2004-02-24 12:58:00, cayohueso wrote:

"

On 2004-02-24 12:16:00, Peter Moore wrote





Also the 12 steps are one person's view.  If I'm not mistaken, Bill practically wrote that book by himself.

OK,  let me get this straight.  You agree that Bill Wilson was pretty much a degenerate and a nutjob right?? (and I ain't talking you're run of the mill village idiot, I'm talking fucking certifiable)  You agree that the Big Book is AAs Bible, right??   You agree that the Big Book is basically steps to aid one in dealing with the perils of life, right???



DO YOU NOT SEE A PROBLEM WITH THIS :question:  :question:

We did not inherit this land from our ancestors, we borrow it form our children.





http://www.civilization.ca/aborig/haida/hapindxe.html' target='_new'>Haida

_________________

St. Pete Straight

early 80s

[ This Message was edited by: cayohueso on 2004-02-24 13:00 ]"

Cayo,

I don't see Bill as all good or all bad.  He was just a very imperfect human being and an alcoholic.  That doesn't mean he had nothing good to say.  

BTW, I mentioned that he wrote almost all of the 12 & 12, not the Big Book.  I don't know who all wrote the Big Book, but I'm pretty sure he wrote several chapters.

Bill had a lot of checks and balances too before the first edition of the Big Book was published.

Also, I don't think AA groups or members follow the Big Book enough these days.  If they did, there would be fewer gripes with AA.  There's even a line in the book that states "To be helpful is our only aim."  The trouble is, too many people in AA want to redefine what the Big Book says and that's where the potential for egotism and guruism comes in.

I realize many will never like AA and I respect that.  But I also feel I have an obligation to a newcomer who can't get sober to at least pass on my 2 cents.

[Pete]

By the way, I am vehemently opposed to court-ordered AA meetings.  But that's just me.

[RTP2003]

On 2004-02-24 13:13:00, Peter Moore wrote:

"By the way, I am vehemently opposed to court-ordered AA meetings.  But that's just me."

Yeah, it must be just you. It seems to me that all the other Steppies have pretty much reached a favorable consensus on court-ordered meetings.

[Pete]

On 2004-02-24 13:05:00, RTP2003 wrote:

"

On 2004-02-24 12:36:00, Peter Moore wrote:



Actually it's the treatment centers who have taken the 12-step philosophy, not the 12-step organizations who have created the centers.  There has never been a treatment center endorsed by AA.


 

**Most of the taxpayer-funded and HMO-approved treatment centers are founded by and staffed by Stepcultists.  It is not erroneous to view them as indoctrination centers.  12 Step meetings were required at the detox facilities I am familiar with.  AA/NA don't endorse particular treatment centers per se, but that is a convenient legal fiction to enable them to swallow tax dollars and insurance money while recruiting new cultists.  If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.....**


Where does it state in any CONFERENCE-APPROVED program literature that they are the "only" way?  


 

**Now this is a good example of NA loopholes and doublespeak.  Every meeting I ever attended had the words "only through this Program" said aloud at some point.  Another answer Steppies give when confronted about their claim to a monopoly on recovery is to say that people who break addictions without AA/NA weren't 'real' addicts.**


>>
Actually there hasn't been enough of a movement from members of other sobriety organizations to do it another way.  .




**I think you are absolutely right


Individuals certainly harm others.  But the programs philosophy doesn't harm them.




**Many of the Stepcult's concepts debase freewill and human dignity in and of themselves.  The program's nature, structure, and growth inherently lends itself to abuse and corruption by unscrupulous individuals, in addition to the many other flaws in it.







_"Stay out, 12-Stepper, your lies are not welcome here"________________



Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink





That's silly.



 This is a mature debate.


**No, it's not silly .  You cultists have done enough harm, you road-to-hell-paving good intentionists.  Ask anyone who's been court-ordered to your Indoctrination Centers and  Groupthink Sessions.  Ask people who have lost family, friends, and freedom due to both your cult and it's members.  

"

RTP, I can't speak for NA.  I have rarely attended there and don't get a lot out of their meetings.  I know a lot of people in AA who say the same.

I'm sure there have been some very cruel AA members who have hurt people immensely.  But cruel people are everywhere.  I know that I was helped and for that I'm grateful.

I'll respond to more later.  Got work to do.

[Cayo Hueso]

I'm not judging him as good or bad as far as a person...but as far as a person from whom I would voluntarily choose to take life advice from?  I think not.  I'm not saying that he didn't have anything good to say, but DAMN...I mean, it's not like he just wrote a few haikus or something.  This is a book that people are expected to live their lives by.    

The weavers of linen and hempen cloth, ... may exercise their trades without paying any fine.
-- Adam Smith in The Wealth of Nations (chapter X, part II) notes:

[Cayo Hueso]

On 2004-02-24 13:17:00, Peter Moore wrote:

  But cruel people are everywhere.  

yes, cruel people are everywhere, but AA gives them a place where it's very easy for that cruelty to flourish and to even be disguised as "help" and "love".  The newcomer is in such a vulnerable state and the whole sponsor, 'group as a higher power' thing has SO much potential for abuse.  Yes, it can happen in any situation, but few 'treatments' seem to be as fertile ground for the abuse of it as AA is in my opinion.  It was designed by a guy who LOVED the attention and control over people...it can't HELP but be geared towards favoring those types of personalities.

I am married, not Buried !
-- Steve Webb

[Pete]

OK, I see where you're coming from.  I strongly support a group conscience prevailing and I've always opposed abuses of power.  I belong to a very large group (usual attendance is about 70-100 people) and I am rarely asked to serve at a group level in that particular group.  Maybe it's because I've always marched to the beat of my own drum.  I have a sponsor but he is not my master.  

I hope you realize that not everyone in AA is an enemy or a dangerous person, even if you oppose a lot about the program.

[Cayo Hueso]

Yes, I realize that.  I think most people in AA are there for the right reasons, I just think that most of them are ignorant to the facts.  I don't mean that in a disrespectful way....I think they truly want help and this is pretty much the only game in town and it seems to work so well etc. etc.

I don't mean to come across bitchy...I really don't.  I realize I tend to get my ire up over this.  It's just that AA seems to be sold as this nice, helpful organization with all these good intentions (and I believe most of the REAL people in there are well-intentioned)but it's a breeding ground for control freaks and wannabe gurus and it's dangerous....even on a small level like a sponsor/sponsee relationship.  A sponsor has SO much control over someones life and I don't think the majority of them are qualified to oversee the life of a cockroach.

I appreciate the respect and it's mutual, but we're definitely not going to agree on this.

Hear me people: We now have to deal with another race - small and feeble when our fathers first met them, but now great and overbearing. Strangely enough they have a mind to till the soil and the love of possessions is a disease with them. These people have made many rules which the rich may break but the poor may not. They take their tithes from the poor and weak to support the rich and those who rule.
http://www.powersource.com/gallery/people/sittbull.html' target='_new'>Chief Sitting Bull, speaking at the Powder River Conference, 1877

[RTP2003]

I don't think every individual in AA/NA is my enemy, but the organization as a whole really bothers me, as does the attitude of many in AA/NA I've encountered both in and out of meetings.  A lot of these people put the cult first and foremost, and if they are in a position to make trouble for you (probation officer, neighborhood busybody, employer/supervisor), will do so, unless you are willing to make the cult first and foremost in your life also.  

Also, the idea of anonymity in these programs is a joke.  The stepsters know the potential of their power, and WILL use it to coerce/blackmail.  Of course, this is "an individual who isn't working a good program" who would do something like that, not the Cult at large. Yeah. Uh-huh. Right.

_________________
Your sponsor says it's OK for you to drink

[ This Message was edited by: RTP2003 on 2004-02-24 13:51 ]

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-24 13:49:00, cayohueso wrote:

 A sponsor has SO much control over someones life and I don't think the majority of them are qualified to oversee the life of a cockroach.


<

 :rofl:  :rofl:  :rofl:

THAT is very funny.  Yes, I agree with you on that.  Nobody's life should be overseen.  If you want that, you should be in a hospital.  I chose my sponsor very carefully.

RTP, you must have had some very negative experiences with some members and groups.  I'm sorry it was like that for you, because no one deserves that.

[Pete]

Whoops.. that was me.  Forgot to punch in my name.

[RTP2003]

This is the kind of crap I hate---"Oh, you must have had a negative experience with some members or groups" implying that I just happened across some bad groups that were misinterpreting their program, and there are really some great groups out there....BULLSHIT.  The whole Stepcult is fucked up--granted some groups may be more so than others, but the entire movement is founded on fiction, and the disinformation they spread is downright dangerous to people looking for help in dealing with their addictions.

[Anonymous]

http://www.aadeprogramming.com/kevin.html

[Pete]

On 2004-02-25 23:41:00, Anonymous wrote:

"http://www.aadeprogramming.com/kevin.html"

While I would never dream of censoring anyone... that Web site (which I have read numerous times) can be dangerous to those with long-term sobriety.  I have a friend who, while in a rut and disillusioned with the program, looked at "AA Deprogramming," basically agreed with it all and went out and drank and became unbelievably miserable.  His life went down the toilet.  Thank God he is now sober and happy again.

Look at Audrey Kishline of MM.  Some argue that she had left the MM program and gone to AA when she crashed head-on while drunk and killed those two people.  I would argue that "working the program" of MM for all those years advanced the progression of her disease to no end and made it a helluva lot more difficult to get sober.

If you claim AA kills, I would counter that "AA Deprogrammers" also kill and are MUCH more dangerous.  The rationalization system of many alcoholics is unbelievable and if you tell them what they want to hear, many will run with it.  I've watched too many people sink their lives while fooling themselves into thinking they were OK.

And please, if it's founded on fiction, why are there so many sober, happy and productive people (myself included).  There are over 2 million members.  

You're entitled to disagree.  Look, I'm don't go to meetings for my health and they're not always fun.  If there was an "easier softer way" at the outset, I'd have taken it.  But I wouldn't have near what I have today and I'm virtually certain I would have continued drinking, probably recklessly.

The Big Book clearly states "To be helpful is our only aim."  This talk of a "stepcult" is pure bullshit and offends me, quite frankly, because I have devoted many years of my life to trying to help others through the power of the 12 steps.  Did you see the A&E special back in 2000?  Rather flattering, don't you think?

But in reference to that Web page, I agree that nobody should be forced to attend AA.  I will also sign anyone's court card, regardless of whether they want to stay or not.  There shouldn't even be court cards.

I am a born rebel.  I disagree with the philosophy of most political organizations and as a former member of Amway and Equinox and an attempted recruit of the International Church of Christ, I DESPISE cults.  What happened at places like Straight and Elan is tragic.  There is nothing more evil than stealing someone's life and innocence.  But the 12 steps are not part of the problem.