Parents should be held accountable!

[Anonymous]

What about the Trekkers?  PURE?  Seems to me they've been awfully quiet these days, too.

 :rofl:

[Anonymous]

On 2003-10-11 19:10:00, Carey wrote:

"Karen stated on another thread:

No one would agree to the kind of cutting off thats actually takes place if they understood it from the start.

I think it is funny that you say this. You know why? The reason is, and so you will know, I too am very much against these programs, however, probably 90% or more of the parents that I have spoken with in regard to the limited communication and the length of time that lapsed before they were able to talk to their child, chose to leave their child in the program for much longer than what the "enrollment agreement" stated was the norm. Why did such a high number of these now disgruntle parents go along with it when it became a reality? So as you say "no one would agree to the kind of cutting off thats actually takes place" then why did it take them so long, like months, to say "hey something is not right here."



I agree in a moment of desparation a parent might make a poor decision about the placement of their child in a program, but after the dust settles why do they then not start to see the signs? Why has it taken a lot of these disgruntle parents so long to see what was happening?



We even know of one parent, someone you and I both know, who made trips to Dundee, and yet left her child there for a year, and is now speaking out against them. WHY? Why did it take a year? Why did it take Amberly 6 months, after resigning (a total of 10 -12 if you add her time at Dundee) to speak out against Dundee? Why with what all has been discovered did it take these two people so long to speak out? Were they afraid for themselves? That is the only thing I can figure. Here you have two adults, actually three given Randall, who could have saved a lot of children a lot of pain and suffering much sooner.



I am so tired of adults who now play the blame game and today act as though they are so righteous. Once again, I think it is a save your butt senario, just like the PURE save your butt senario. I question whether any of these individuals motive is that of protecting children."

What I don't understand is why these parents are so trusting in the first place.  Do they not understand the inherent risk in sending their children out of the country?  

 ::

[kaydeejaded]

that is exactly what I do not understand, I cannot imagine buying into that con.

More likely I would by a cabin in the woods and do my own wilderness therapy. Make soap sing songs homeschool. Might be just as horrible(they might think) but I am there every step of the way.

...it does not require a majority to prevail, but rather an irate,
tireless minority keen to set brush fires in people's minds..

--Samuel Adams

[Antigen]

It really doesn't surprise me so much any more. It just frightens me. Look at what's happening elsewhere in our society and it just fits.

Good ol'e Rush Limbaugh. It seems asif his fans are so completely ignorant about the high holy causes he advocates. They really believe him and his lawyer when they say everybody's picking on him. They honestly believe that the other million or so people who get caught up in the drug war every year are some kind of evil monsters right out of a comic book or something, not real nice people like good ol'e Rush. They have NO clue what actually happens to people when some idiot calls up the 1-800-BEA-SNITch hotline and starts a prosecution rolling.

Look at what's happening in Goose Creek, SC. At the same time in the same newspapers and in the same tv news broadcast, we hear of police 'accidentally' killing unarmed suspects, often enough children, sometimes even friendly dogs, just about every week or two. In the past 4,000 years that we know of, no one has ever died from smoking or eating cannabis. And yet we see school and police officials and even some students and parents who think it makes perfect sense to send a SWAT team w/ weapons drawn into a crowded school hallway to protect the children from the dangers of Cannabis??

Hell, our military is bombing the shit out of Iraq right now because a good many Americans have bought into the fiction that Iraq or Sadam had something to do with the WTC attack!

No, it doesn't surprise me a bit that parents, schoolpeople and professional shrinks buy into these programs' sales pitch. It frightens me. I don't hate these people, I just want more people to start paying closer attention and asking questions.

You know, too many weirdos out there. At least with you people I know WHY you are weird!!!

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Straight_Inc_Alumni/' target='_new'>Kady

[Anonymous]

It does no good to ask questions, if the reply you get is a lie. And if you get the same reply from a dozen different people, it seems likely to be true. We here all know this is not Always the case. But Joe and Jane Average are reeled right in. This is why I maintain it is so importiant to explain the effect of LGAT seminairs; and how and why you have the legions of Faithful.
I feel this alone explains how and why these programs are able to prosper and continue.

[Deborah]

Yeh, and did you hear about this one?
http://www.click10.com/news/2679267/detail.html

Caught one of the wack, right-wing talk show hosts ranting on about it last night on my way to Toys R Us. Fah La La La La. One of his deranged callers explained that he was an ex drug addict and could attest to the fact that PCP would make one "crazy" and that the cop, "knowing the guy was on PCP, should have shot him in the head", rather than risk his own safety. Then justified, that given the combination of drugs the victim had taken- he would have died that night anyway.

Dear lord, where have we heard this BS before?

Programs blame restraint deaths on Excited Delirium- Victim "causes their own death" by becoming overly distressed about being restrained. Convenient. Let's the 2 or 3 large adults doing the restraining off the hook. Doesn't matter that they cut off the victim's supply of oxygen.

In the above case, the victim's "struggle with police" caused his death, complicated by his "drug use" of course. IF he hadn't "struggled" he would still be alive.

Give me an F-in break. This is 2003 on planet Earth for god's sake. Technology abounds. Fierce animals in the wild are treated more humanely than "deviants".

Rarely is "reasoning" the authority's MO- provoking is probably more common- but given that the victim is beyond reasoning, the most humane thing to do, (and what I would prefer if it was MY loved one resisting) is shoot him/her with a tranquilizer dart. Five seconds and they'd be flat out on the ground. There are also pressure points that will bring one to the ground immediately. There are even nets that can be shot from special guns to contain the subject- saw high school students using them to catch animals they would return to the wild. Point being- Bullets, restraint, and "struggle" (beating?) are not the only options.

There is no excuse to allow this "venting of pent up rage" by the "authorities". Police should not be allowed to carry anything but tranquiler darts. There are too many that go into  professions of authority in order to perpetrate violence themselves.

Bowling For Columbine- Michael Moore's film- showed beyond a shadow of doubt that this is a country full of fearful, angry, rage-filled people who jump at the opportunity to vent all their seething rage on every "victim" that crosses their path. Their motto, "I loves my gun".

Where does the buck stop? The violence perpetrated by the "authorities" is no more justified than that of the "victim". There are some that would like us to believe otherwise and they would also choose that we continue to believe that "righteous" violence is justified- a necessary evil; because they need an outlet for their own rage (fear)... otherwise, they might explode and land in jail, or dead, themselves.

There is no argument that can justify the killing of a 350# druggie passed out on the lawn of a restaurant or the killing of a "defiant teen" who has the life squeezed out of him by three adult staff?

[Anonymous]

::bandit::  :smokin:

[Antigen]

Check out http://tribweb.com/ and search on the name liberman. The print edition of the one headlined "Girl blaims burns, beatings by mother" is much longer than the online version. The last paragraph goes like this:

"[Liberman] told us she adopted the children because they had a drug abusive mother," said a neighbor, Lori Hanechak, adding she was shocked because there was no prior sign of child abuse and that Liberman appeared to be a very loving, caring parent.

It's really and truely not JUST the troubled parent industry that's the problem. It's the fact and the reasons why there's a market demand for professionally administered child abuse.

May the fleas of one thousand llamas infest your armpits
--One ticked off sysadmin

[Anonymous]

I'm in complete agreement that parent's need to take responsibility.

I also agree that without those parents there is no market for these programs to exist.

I've heard girls talking about getting raped by their fathers... they're the slut... they're a druggie. What kind of insanity is that? That is exactly the place to keep the daughter you've been raping locked away with people in control who are telling her it's her fault. Let her take the responsibility...

Sure that is an extreme example...

What I'm curious to know is how many children placed are already abused emotionally or physically or sexually by the parents who signed them in?

How many parents feed off of someone telling them that all the problems are the kids fault, letting them off the hook.

How many parents might not even see much wrong with abuse if they are already abusing their own kid and saying "they deserved it".? Doesn't seem so hard for me to see them believing that their child must have deserved what they were getting in the program.

I don't know if every place is like this, but I know a good number were.

[Anonymous]

YOU CAN CALL THE KIDS THE VICTIMS ALL YOU WANT, AND IN SOME CASES IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS THEY ARE.  YOU ARE NEGLECTING TO SEE, HOWEVER, THAT THEY ENDED UP IN A FACILITY SUCH AS THIS FOR A REASON.  IF YOU LIKE THE BLAME GAME AS U CALL IT (I REMEMBER THAT TERM VERY WELL) THEN SHOOT AN EYEBALL OVER IN THE KIDS DIRECTION FIRST, LETS NOT FORGET THAT WE 'STUDENTS' GOT THE BALL ROLLING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

[Froderik]

Oh, go fuck yourself already. I sincerely hope that your kids stab you to death in your sleep, you idiot. You sure would deserve it, fucker...

[Antigen]

Please stop shouting, Anon. (caps lock) It's not that we're having trouble understanding or remembering your rant. It's just that we're not buying it. And we probably won't, even if you develop a more sophisticated approach and learn how to use font sizes and colors or even animation w/ sound.

You see, we were the kids in question 20 years ago. Now we're the grown ups. Most of us have teenage or older kids ourselves. Some of us are even grandparents already. We've seen, heard and lived all sides of the argument from several different perspectives.

Here's what it comes down to, really. Lots of people are freaked out and terrified by the way their teenaged kids go about inventing an adult identity, seperate from their parents. Some few respond by trying to prevent it at any and all costs. Others use different approaches.

It has always been thus down through the ages. Read Romeo and Juliette or the parable of the prodigal son or any of a number of Greek tragedies. Understand that these are timeless stories because these things actually happen to real live people every day.

100% of the responsibility for sending kids into these private prisons rests w/ the people who sign the contracts (those who do so while not under duress, anyway) and who pay for the 'service'. No one else "does the necessary things" to inter these kids in these gulags. If it were the kids who brought this on themselves, then all kids who deviate from their parents' wishes would be in a private prison. Obviously not, as no more than about 5k or so kids are in them at any given time.

According to the US census, there were 20,219,890 kids age 15 - 19 in the US in 2000. Even leaving out the 12 - 14 year olds (and younger) that's still only about 2.5% of the total population for this age group.

We know already that the "signs" of ______ (state your favorite imagined behavioral problem or ODD if you can't think of anything more specific) used to convince gullible parents that their kid is carrying on a secret double existance as a bank robbing heroin addict are just a boiler-plate catch-all for normal adolescent behavior. So the argument that these are only the worst of the worst doesn't really cut the mustard w/ those of us who've been there.

The fact is that, out of all the parents in the US who go through the white knuckle ride that raising kids sometimes is, only a very small number of them find it necessary to send their kids off to a private prison. All the rest do something else, as it has been down through the ages.

Bottom line, it wasn't your fault, kid. Your bone-headed parents, well intentioned and devoted as they surely are, are the ones who "did the necessary things" to get you locked up.

I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much
liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it.

--Thomas Jefferson, 1791, in a letter to Archibald Stuart

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-16 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"YOU CAN CALL THE KIDS THE VICTIMS ALL YOU WANT, AND IN SOME CASES IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS THEY ARE.  

So first, lets get out into the open...... You  admit that there are abuses, and that the potential for abuse exists!

That is at least a step in the right direction.

On 2004-02-16 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

YOU ARE NEGLECTING TO SEE, HOWEVER, THAT THEY ENDED UP IN A FACILITY SUCH AS THIS FOR A REASON.  IF YOU LIKE THE BLAME GAME AS U CALL IT (I REMEMBER THAT TERM VERY WELL) THEN SHOOT AN EYEBALL OVER IN THE KIDS DIRECTION FIRST, LETS NOT FORGET THAT WE 'STUDENTS' GOT THE BALL ROLLING IN THE FIRST PLACE.  "

So, what you are saying, Here is that Parent who do not take responsibility for their LACK of action, which was basically created by shoving Disney down their kids throat and expecting them to act appropriately, without first taking th time to teach them so. In many cases where they just don't have the time because they are busy working to support _their_ lifestyle, and in others because the didn't want the fuckin kid in the first place. Are exasperated, and push the problems off onto someone else, with blatant disregard of what the child _really_ needs, which in most cases was the lost love and or attention that they NEEDED and DESERVED.

Once in these places, which have the increasing potential of abuse, because they are full of children, whom many don't have any REAL problems other then the normal teenage rebellion that we all go through, who do not have any self respect or respect for others as they were taught by ACTION, in turn treat others as they had been treated. All with the full blessing of "counselors" ( I use this term lightly).

It sounds to me Anon, that you are pissed off at facing the reality that you did not take responsibility for you child, and showed them the way, or refused to see what they really needed, and stuck them in a program that they now resent you even MORE for.


It's either that or you are a recent graduate who's head is still reeling and feel that everything that is wrong with your life is all upon you, and that your parent's responsibility in the matter is non-existent.

Lets remember, that everything starts in the home. It starts at the first day they the child was brought into this world and with a loving family, never ends. A tight stranglehold is rarely ever the answer, and usually only leads to exasperation.

[Anonymous]

On 2004-02-16 17:02:00, Anonymous wrote:

"YOU CAN CALL THE KIDS THE VICTIMS ALL YOU WANT, AND IN SOME CASES IN CERTAIN SCENARIOS THEY ARE.  YOU ARE NEGLECTING TO SEE, HOWEVER, THAT THEY ENDED UP IN A FACILITY SUCH AS THIS FOR A REASON.  IF YOU LIKE THE BLAME GAME AS U CALL IT (I REMEMBER THAT TERM VERY WELL) THEN SHOOT AN EYEBALL OVER IN THE KIDS DIRECTION FIRST, LETS NOT FORGET THAT WE 'STUDENTS' GOT THE BALL ROLLING IN THE FIRST PLACE.  "

Wow. Something must have pushed your buttons.  Perhaps you were one of those parents mentioned in the preceeding post? Perhaps you should shoot your eyeball right into the mirror my friend. Would you like these kids to also take responsibility for the abuse they received? There is no excuse or exception for the way kids are treated, no matter how big a junkie, or how chemically insane, or how doped up or burnt out.
And more of a reason they should have received "real" help from "real" professionals!

If I'm mistaken and you are a "student", perhaps you can tell me how your "getting the ball rolling in the first place" has anything to do with what someone else did or did not do to become a "student." Perhaps you are still stuck in believing that you deserve to be mistreated as well and you continue to believe what they told you. I will tell you that I did not deserve to be beaten, bruised, spit on, humiliated, and exposed to a great deal of emotional abuse. If you continue to feel you deserved it I am sad for you.

Certainly there were kids who were drug addicted, abusing alcohol, suicidal, or effected by mental illness, perhaps in dire need of some sort of treatment. I don't believe anyone is debating that here. Unfortunately, these individuals did not get the treatment they so desperately needed.  I can speak personally for myself that I was not one of them. There were countless children who never drugged or drank a drop. Tell me, why were they there? I don't think the discussion is about who needed treatment. It is more about the treatment they didn't get and the abuse they certainly got.

Yes. The reason. That is exactly what I'm trying to figure out. What is the reason that these parents would accept no contact with their child for months, years? Why would a parent accept not seeing their child except from a distance across a crowded room? Why would a parent not be extremely concerned that their child was not in school, not receiving an education, for years? Why did red flags not go off when the promised amount of time the child would be away from home dragged on into endless years? Why did these parents not feel alarmed at wounds, broken bones and bruises on their children?  Because parents got something for themselves out of these places. They found something in them that they needed personally, not what was in the best interest of their children. But What?

It isn't a matter of blame. These are questions I'd love some parents to answer. We'll leave the blame to the self proclaimed "professionals" who tell adolescent girls that they provoked their own father to rape them and tell children who were battered by parents they deserved it.  

Let's just end by saying that NO child needs, in your words, a "facility such as this" Let's remember that there are countless rehabs, hospitals and mental health options which are productive, neccessary, and successful in helping adolescents address the problems they are facing. These however are not from what I can tell, the places being discussed here. And kids from those places don't have and do not need a website like this because they were treated appropriately for their problems AND treated right.

Haven't so many of these kids been blamed for so much that can not possibly be their fault already? What is your point?

[Anonymous]

You make a good point - I hope your post will be read over carefully and thoughtfully by the program folks who drop by.
In my opinion, what the parents 'get' out of it is their ego stroked and inflated. They get a group to belong to; something to be and commit to.
They have it powerfully and constantly reinforced by group think, acceptance and compliance.
For the most part, everyone they are talking to about their child's situation is in agreement that they are doing what?s best; even what Must be done; for the child's sake.
They are strongly discouraged from speaking with anyone who might not be supportive of 'the program'. Many take this to the point of cutting off contact with non-supportive family members.
And they have a large group of like minded folks telling them they are wonderful, powerful, and justified for trusting the program so absolutely.
In my mind, its a diabolically clever mode of control the program has concocted.