Dead, insane, or in jail (general discussion)

[DannyB II]

In my facility, the mantra was dead-or-in-jail. Maybe because the "insane" was already presumed to be true.

It's been hard for me to recognize this mantra as being an untruth. After all, many of us were already almost dead, and some of us had already been in jail. That's what made it look like a fact.

I can see now how it was used to manipulate us. But I was wondering: how have other people dealt with this mantra as adults?

How have you been able to get it out of your head, away from your expectations for yourself and for the other kids who were in programs with you?

I may not like the "quote" because for a lot of folks I knew this was the reality. It never was a mantra for me.

[Maximilian]

One meets his destiny often in the road he takes to avoid it.

[none-ya]

muckit wrote
"One meets his destiny often in the road he takes to avoid it.

What  , Now you quote furtune cookie?

[Whooter]

“Dead, insane or in jail” or "Dead or in Jail" are used outside of programs also.  I have noticed that many posters here on fornits who had a bad experience associate this phrase with the program they were in and therefore view the phrase in a negative way.

I have seen this with other phrases also like “Getting real”.  This is used outside of programs also but when people here on fornits hear it they view it as program speak.

This also applies to certain songs which were sung while they were in the program.  I heard someone say “Jingle Bells” had a negative effect on some people here.  Others may associate certain foods negatively due to them being served inside programs.

So the Phrase “Dead, insane or in Jail” is a valid phrase/argument but just doesn’t sit well with most folk here on fornits.



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[Anne Bonney]

So the Phrase “Dead, insane or in Jail” is a valid phrase/argument but just doesn’t sit well with most folk here on fornits.

Because in programs, they ARE using it as manipulation (scare tactics).  First they use it on the parents to scare them into believing that the kid needs a program (they'll DIE without it!!) and, more damagingly, they're using on on a bunch of weekend warrior kids with what the parents see as 'attitude problems' and who are not addicted to anything.  It started out, IIRC, in Synanon where they were dealing with hardcore heroin addicts and shouldn't be used on kids.  Ya know, that self-fulfilling prophecy stuff.  They're telling kids with ADHD or ODD (which terms, btw, could be applied to damn near every teenage kid at some time in their lives) that if they don't buy into the bullshit thought reform and conform that they'll be deadinsaneorinjail.  It's part and parcel of the coercion.

[Whooter]

So the Phrase “Dead, insane or in Jail” is a valid phrase/argument but just doesn’t sit well with most folk here on fornits.

Because in programs, they ARE using it as manipulation (scare tactics).  First they use it on the parents to scare them into believing that the kid needs a program (they'll DIE without it!!) and, more damagingly, they're using on on a bunch of weekend warrior kids with what the parents see as 'attitude problems' and who are not addicted to anything.  It started out, IIRC, in Synanon where they were dealing with hardcore heroin addicts and shouldn't be used on kids.  Ya know, that self-fulfilling prophecy stuff.  They're telling kids with ADHD or ODD (which terms, btw, could be applied to damn near every teenage kid at some time in their lives) that if they don't buy into the bullshit thought reform and conform that they'll be deadinsaneorinjail.  It's part and parcel of the coercion.

Exactly, Anne, the phrase has a very negative meaning to you just like some people find the song "Jingle Bells" disturbing to hear because of their exposure to it in the program or the term "Getting Real"  etc.

If there were people who had never heard of a program and their friend said they would have been "Dead or in Jail" if it were not for their "therapist" or "Counselor" or "Parole officer" or "Aunt Jane"  etc.  They wouldnt have this negative cloud of synanon, manipulation or thought reform hanging over them.  It would be a valid phrase that is used in everyday life.



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[Anne Bonney]

Exactly, Anne, the phrase has a very negative meaning to you just like some people find the song "Jingle Bells" disturbing to hear because of their exposure to it in the program or the term "Getting Real"  etc.

No, those two things are very different.  While the song can remind some of us of the torture we went through, the threat of "you'll die if you leave us" has a lasting effect on the child's psyche.  Again, self-fulfilling prophecy.

If there were people who had never heard of a program and their friend said they would have been "Dead or in Jail" if it were not for their "therapist" or "Counselor" or "Parole officer" or "Aunt Jane"  etc.  They wouldnt have this negative cloud of synanon, manipulation or thought reform hanging over them.  It would be a valid phrase that is used in everyday life.

But in the case of real therapy, there's not the threat of "if you leave us, you'll die".  Someone may feel that their therapist 'saved their life' but any qualified therapist is not going to use the treat of death to get their patients to "keep coming back".

[Troll Control]

Then you have experiences like Whooter's family where the kid goes to the program and still ends up dead.  Only he was abused for a few years before he ended up dead anyway.  The program just extended his misery until he had the opportunity to overdose.

[Maximilian]

If you ended up in a program, you were probably behaving in a way that concerned people enough to choose that option. That means that unlike 99.9% of teenagers, you were sent to a program for troubled teens, which by definition is a population of people who will more likely have trouble in society when they grow up. As teens we showed symptoms of being troubled, and so programs want to work hard to keep us out of jail or institutions, and maybe set us on the right path. There is a reason so many "program vets" end up in jail, or killing themselves from drugs, or insane.. Some people even try to use this fact as proof that programs don't work. I think the insane part has been displayed on fornits for a while now, although it appears Psy is clearing the crazy people out of here now, there is more to this statement than some people here would like to admit. But, I don't think it's a self fulfilling prophecy, there is no such thing. Remember the wise words of Sarah Connor, there is no fate but what we make.

[Ursus]

If there were people who had never heard of a program and their friend said they would have been "Dead or in Jail" if it were not for their "therapist" or "Counselor" or "Parole officer" or "Aunt Jane"  etc.  They wouldnt have this negative cloud of synanon, manipulation or thought reform hanging over them.  It would be a valid phrase that is used in everyday life.

But in the case of real therapy, there's not the threat of "if you leave us, you'll die".  Someone may feel that their therapist 'saved their life' but any qualified therapist is not going to use the treat of death to get their patients to "keep coming back".

Nor would any professional therapist allow themselves or their patient to attach undue importance to said therapist having "saved" said client's life, regardless of the circumstances and whether or not there is any merit to the sentiment.

[Ursus]

If you ended up in a program, you were probably behaving in a way that concerned people enough to choose that option.

Bullshit. I was actually a relatively tame kid, even by standards back then.

There is a reason so many "program vets" end up in jail, or killing themselves from drugs, or insane.. Some people even try to use this fact as proof that programs don't work.

More bullshit. I left Hyde School far more messed up than when I started there. This was directly the result of abuse perpetrated by Hyde School, as well as Hyde School's "blame the victim" philosophy and LGAT-style confrontational methodologies.

[Maximilian]

Well that's how the fornits narrative tends to go. Innocent children are sent to programs by ignorant parents being manipulated by evil, sadistic, program employees conning them into sending their teen for no reason at all. Then that teen is brutally subjected to group therapy until they are a  drooling brainwash victim, spouting AA doctrine at the drop of a hat. Then they get back in the real world and can't cope, and then the jail, dead or insane prophecy comes into play. Since the kid was brainwashed to believe they are an addict/loser, they will ultimately fulfill this prophecy, all because of the program. Had only those poor, naive parents not picked up the phone the day the program called, we would all be a bunch of doctors and lawyers and fornits wouldn't exist.

[Anne Bonney]

If you ended up in a program, you were probably behaving in a way that concerned people enough to choose that option.

Wrong, but I understand that you've been programmed to believe that.  If a kid is sent away, there MUST be a good reason...amirite?  It could NEVER be that the parent is over-reacting or being scared by some Ed-Con into believing that their kid is "troubled", right?

That means that unlike 99.9% of teenagers, you were sent to a program for troubled teens, which by definition is a population of people who will more likely have trouble in society when they grow up.

If they've been subjected to the mindfuck that is LGAT-type programs, you're damn right they'll have more problems.

As teens we showed symptoms of being troubled, and so programs want to work hard to keep us out of jail or institutions, and maybe set us on the right path.

You might have, but not me.  As a teen, I showed the symptoms of being a normal teenager.  I had an incredibly strict father who didn't like the fact that after the divorce my mother gave me more freedom than he did, so off I went to Straight.  I had experimented with pot and drank but never had a drug or alcohol "problem".  No behavior problems reported at school.  Nothing clinical diagnoses of anyting.....no ODD, ADHD or anything remotely close to it.  In fact, the only person that had a problem with how I was living my life was my father, who was a very controlling man who didn't like people disagreeing with him.

There is a reason so many "program vets" end up in jail, or killing themselves from drugs, or insane.

I was told for years after I rejected Straight's thinking that I would end up that way.  I'm still here, living a relatively happy life....all without benefit of Straight, AA or any other dogmatic bullshit.  Funny, it wasn't until I shook off all of Straight and AA's teachings that I truly began to 'recover' and become happy.

Some people even try to use this fact as proof that programs don't work.

No they don't.  They use it as anecdotal evidence that programs can, and very often do, harm kids.

 But, I don't think it's a self fulfilling prophecy, there is no such thing.

It's called the Pygmalion Effect and it's real.

http://www.ntlf.com/html/pi/9902/pygm_1.htm

http://www.psy.gla.ac.uk/~steve/hawth.html#pyg


 

Remember the wise words of Sarah Connor, there is no fate but what we make.

I don't like to base my life decisions off of fictional characters in a sci-fi movie.  But that's just me.

[Whooter]

If there were people who had never heard of a program and their friend said they would have been "Dead or in Jail" if it were not for their "therapist" or "Counselor" or "Parole officer" or "Aunt Jane"  etc.  They wouldnt have this negative cloud of synanon, manipulation or thought reform hanging over them.  It would be a valid phrase that is used in everyday life.

But in the case of real therapy, there's not the threat of "if you leave us, you'll die".  Someone may feel that their therapist 'saved their life' but any qualified therapist is not going to use the treat of death to get their patients to "keep coming back".

Nor would any professional therapist allow themselves or their patient to attach undue importance to said therapist having "saved" said client's life, regardless of the circumstances and whether or not there is any merit to the sentiment.

I agree, not many therapists would say "You would have been dead if it were not for me"  because they typically dont pat themselves on the back nor do they know for sure the "Cause and Effect".  The patient may credit his/her therapist with saving their life because that is how they feel.  They feel they turned a corner and could not have done it without the help of the therapist.  But who knows?  Maybe the person would not have died without the help of the therapist, maybe another event would have occurred which would have saved the persons' life.  But the point is that it was a major event in the persons life.

But it is natural to attach importance to events when we really dont know their effect.  

Take a look at programs for example.  Many people attribute their success and the turn around in their lives to the time they spent in a program.  But what if they never went?  Would they still be doing well?

How about the ones who say the program did them harm?  would they be better off if they didn't go or worse off?  We just don't know.



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[Maximilian]

Wrong, but I understand that you've been programmed to believe that.  If a kid is sent away, there MUST be a good reason...amirite?  It could NEVER be that the parent is over-reacting or being scared by some Ed-Con into believing that their kid is "troubled", right?

That reminds me, I have to download and install the newest update to my programming.

If they've been subjected to the mindfuck that is LGAT-type programs, you're damn right they'll have more problems.

Mindfuck is your term. I went through LGAT and came out just fine, so do most people. Perhaps maybe in the olden days when you and Ursus were in programs things were different, I can't comment on things that happened before I was born.

You might have, but not me.  As a teen, I showed the symptoms of being a normal teenager.  I had an incredibly strict father who didn't like the fact that after the divorce my mother gave me more freedom than he did, so off I went to Straight.  I had experimented with pot and drank but never had a drug or alcohol "problem".  No behavior problems reported at school.  Nothing clinical diagnoses of anyting.....no ODD, ADHD or anything remotely close to it.  In fact, the only person that had a problem with how I was living my life was my father, who was a very controlling man who didn't like people disagreeing with him.

That's one perspective. It would be interesting to hear your parents side of the story to get a more accurate picture of what was really going on.

I was told for years after I rejected Straight's thinking that I would end up that way.  I'm still here, living a relatively happy life....all without benefit of Straight, AA or any other dogmatic bullshit.  Funny, it wasn't until I shook off all of Straight and AA's teachings that I truly began to 'recover' and become happy.

Some might view fornits as dogmatic bullshit.

No they don't.  They use it as anecdotal evidence that programs can, and very often do, harm kids.

Yet there are only a dozen or so posters here. Out of hundreds of thousands who went to programs.

It's called the Pygmalion Effect and it's real.

http://www.ntlf.com/html/pi/9902/pygm_1.htm

http://www.psy.gla.ac.uk/~steve/hawth.html#pyg

Well if there's a webpage about it, it must be true.


 

I don't like to base my life decisions off of fictional characters in a sci-fi movie.  But that's just me.

I know, you're above it. Thanks for descending to our level to talk to us, Great Anne Bonney.