Author Topic: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?  (Read 6396 times)

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Offline Maximilian

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Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« on: September 09, 2010, 06:51:55 PM »
I've noticed some posters on fornits make the argument that the "professionals" should be left to deal with troubled teens, and suggest parents seek the services of psychiatry, and adolescent psychiatric hospitals to act as a safety net when dealing with a mentally ill or self destructive teenager.

What reasons do people have to assume psychiatry or psychiatric hospitalization is superior to say, a wilderness program?

What reasons would someone suggest that psychiatric medication therapy is better than say, large group awareness training?

As someone who has experienced both version of treatment, I do believe there is some differences between the two. I don't have to get into details at this moment, and I wanted to post this thread before I forgot about it. But I will come back and make detailed posts using my own expereinces as the foundation for my opinions on this subject. But in the mean time, people can think about this and come up with their own arguments and theories.

Are there alternatives to programs like psychiatry that offer solutions to the same problems parents are facing when thinking about sending their teen to a program?

Why do so many parents seek out private programs, when psychiatric services are readily available?
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2010, 06:54:17 PM »
Quote from: "Maximilian"
I've noticed some posters on fornits make the argument that the "professionals" should be left to deal with troubled teens, and suggest parents seek the services of psychiatry, and adolescent psychiatric hospitals to act as a safety net when dealing with a mentally ill or self destructive teenager.

What reasons do people have to assume psychiatry or psychiatric hospitalization is superior to say, a wilderness program?


They wouldn't be dying of heatstroke at a psych hospital

Quote
What reasons would someone suggest that psychiatric medication therapy is better than say, large group awareness training?

Humiliating someone who's already having troubles doesn't help.



Quote
Why do so many parents seek out private programs, when psychiatric services are readily available?

Because they're vulnerable and gullible.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Samara

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #2 on: September 09, 2010, 07:01:47 PM »
My parents thought the brochures looked nice.

They also thought if it had the word "school" in it, it must be so.

They believed the marketing.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2010, 08:28:22 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Maximilian"


What reasons do people have to assume psychiatry or psychiatric hospitalization is superior to say, a wilderness program?


They wouldn't be dying of heatstroke at a psych hospital

A quick stat for what it is worth.....

from 1979-2003, excessive heat exposure caused 8,015 deaths in the United States.  

Link

We have seen about a 1 or 2 occur in wilderness programs.



...
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Offline asha-kun

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2010, 11:21:45 PM »
Though both are toxic institutions, from what I've experienced the psych ward does have two advantages.

1.  Psychiatric wards have edible, non-moldy food and real live canned beverages.

2.  Time done in children's psych is definite, and short compared to time in a program.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #5 on: September 10, 2010, 10:37:03 AM »
I guess I need to qualify that statement a little better.  At a reputable psychiatric hospital, kids wouldn't be dying of heatstroke ormedial neglect from unqualified staff thinking kids are "being manipulative" (because they've been trained to believe that about the kids) in the numbers/percentages we seem to be seeing in the TTI.  It's definitely more than "1 or 2", but Whooter knew that already.


One month after that broadcast, the parents of 15-year-old Erica Harvey (pictured) of Phoenix brought her to the program to deal with her depression and drug use.

"She pleaded with us, 'Daddy, please don't make me go,'" her father Michael said in an interview with ABC News Monday. "All my instincts said, 'Leave this place now,' and I didn't trust my instincts."

Within a day, Erica was dead, after collapsing on her first wilderness trip from heat stroke and dehydration.



Erica is not the only victim. No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.

The parents of scores of children who died or were abused in therapy programs and boot camps are now coming forward, on Web sites and in Congress, to demand a crackdown.

Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., has pushed to improve oversight of the programs. Miller asked the Government Accountability Office to study allegations and cases of negligent deaths and abuse in such programs, and will chair the hearing.

The GAO's findings appalled him, he said.

"Kids being forced to eat their own vomit, to eat dirt, to not be allowed to go to the bathroom...all in the idea that somehow this is building character," he said.



The parents of 16-year-old Aaron Bacon of Arizona say abuse at a wilderness camp in Utah led to the death of their son in 1994.

Aaron "began to complain of a stomach ache, and they called him a faker and a slacker," Sally Bacon told ABC News. "He was in so much pain that he could not carry his pack...They humiliated him, called him names and decided that since he couldn't carry his pack, his food was in his pack so he would go without food."

Like the Harveys, the Bacons will also testify at Tuesday's hearing, chaired by Rep. Miller.

Aaron lost 23 pounds in his month at the camp before he died, because no one realized he had an infected, perforated ulcer, the GAO said. The condition "would have been treatable provided there had been early medical attention," the report states. A draft of the report was obtained by ABC News.

After Aaron's death, the state of Utah revoked the program's operating license, and the program closed three months later, the GAO reports.  

Bacon_071010_mn Click here to read part of Brian Ross' interview with Sally Bacon and her husband Bob.

A spokesperson for the industry's association says such deaths are tragic and agrees new regulations are needed so that good programs can continue to operate.

"We cannot afford to take these away from the parents as an option," Jan Moss, president of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs. "However, they must be regulated."

But the GAO investigation also found many programs lack the trained counselors or therapeutic procedures they promise.

In February 2001, the parents of 14-year-old Ryan Lewis took him to an outdoor therapy program in West Virginia after he was diagnosed with clinical depression and twice attempted suicide. The program billed itself as being especially prepared to handle cases like Ryan's, the Lewises told ABC News.

One day after threatening to kill himself, Ryan was left alone, accused of being manipulative.

"That night at approximately 7:30 in the evening, he walked off by himself to his camp site and he hung himself," Paul Lewis recounted.

Paul and his wife found out later that despite the operation's marketing, the program Ryan attended had no procedures for handling suicidal behavior by its enrollees.




Alex Cullinane, 13 years old.  Back to Basics Christian Military Academy; subcontracts with Fort Lauderdale-based Juvenile Military Training and Leadership Corp. The camp is run by certified National Guard drill sergeants.  His death is under investigation. 15-year old squad leader Brandon Scott believes he died of dehydration. He did not eat for days, according to other children, and complained of stomach pain. He died in the middle of the night after getting up to use the bathroom.

Alex Harris, 12 years old.  Hope Youth Ranch Minden.  Died of dehydration and blow to the head, allegedly when he was dropped on his head. He was forced to run, said he was thirsty, withheld water, he died of dehydration.


Anthony T. Haynes, 14 years old. America's Buffalo Soldiers (Arizona).  Dehydration and near drowning


Charles Collins, Jr., 15 years old. Camp Oakland/Crossroads for Youth.  Died after allegedly being forced to exercise at the facility after they were told he had an enlarged heart and should not participate in such activities.


Dillon Taylor Peak, 14 years old.  Peace River Outward Bound camp in DeSoto County.  Officials say Dillon apparently died of a severe case of encephalitis. The death remains under investigation. According to an article listed on the  ACLU website, Dillon died after becoming ill and suffering seizures. His parents claim he didn't get medical treatment soon enough, and a state investigation released in January found that, while Outward Bound staffers weren't guilty of neglect, they failed to follow strict guidelines that would have sent Peak to the hospital instead of back to his tent.


Elisa Santry, 16 years old.  Outward Bound, Utah.  Elisa was found dead 5 hours after she was separated from her group when she was hiking in 110 degree weather in the Utah wilderness. Cause of death is being investigated.



Gina Score, 14 years old. South Dakota Training School, Plankinton, SD.  Collapsed (hyperthermia), left out in sun for 3 hours....internal temp at least 108


Ian August, 14 years old. Skyline Journey of Nephi, Utah. Hyperthermia   Hiking


Jamie Young, 13 years old. Ramsey Canyon Hospital & Treatment Center, Arizona. Autopsy found that death was caused by heatstroke with dehydration triggered by 10 times the lethal levels of an antidepressant



Kristen Chase, 16 years old.  Challenger Foundation. Heatstroke


Mark Soares, 16 years old.  Wayside Union Academy.  Cardiac arrest from physical restraint; aides thought teen was faking unconsciousness


Nicholas Contreras, 16 years old.  Arizona Boys Ranch.  Prolonged and serious medical neglect and openly abusive treatment per investigative summary. From one article: "In one case, Contreraz was forced to do pushups with his head over a bucket of feces-smeared clothing..."


Roberto Reyes, 15 years old.  Thayer Learning Center.      

Robert Reyers' cause of death was said to be from a probable spider bite and lack of medical care. Reyes died of rhabdomyolysis. This can be caused by severe exertion, trauma, and heatstroke. All likely consequences of the regime at Thayer Learning Center. Without the basis of any evidence the coroner claimed Reyes died of a probable spider bite. However, they could not even find a spider bite on his body. Additionally, spider bite is not one of the causes of rhabdomyolysis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Maximilian

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #6 on: September 10, 2010, 11:47:31 AM »
I definitely "enjoyed" and that is a relative meaning, the psychiatric hospital a lot more than the private program I was in. I think there are several reasons for this, actually. There are some things I did not enjoy though, and thought were better in the private program. I definitely agree the food was great in the psych hospital, that's like the best I've ever eaten. They'd even bring us desserts with every meal, and unlimited juice privileges. The other things I enjoyed more about psych hospital treatment was that you received a lot more individual attention. I won't lie I really liked the attention, and wasn't used to so many adults taking an interest in me. I visited with my very own psychiatrist once a day,  and another psychologist as well. They'd ask me all sorts of questions about myself, and even give me extensive tests like the inkblot and IQ tests, that were very lengthy and challenging. I enjoyed the group therapy a lot, we had all sorts of different groups. We had chemical recovery group for people with drug issues, we had art therapy group, recreational therapy group and sometimes even got to go outside to go swimming. Normally we weren't allowed outside, we had a barred in patio to hang out on for fresh air.

Another big plus in the hospital was that it was generally less strict. You had 2 people per room, and the boys and girls were mixed which always makes things more enjoyable and interesting as well. The nurses and everybody were all very nice. There were phones on the walls and you could call your friends. You could get visits everyday from your family, and even your friends could come with family approval. We had school every weekday and the teacher was very nice. I spent a lot of time there on several different stays.

The thing I didn't like about the psych hospital was the fact it sometimes felt like they were running a science experiment on you. It felt like a new medication would be started everyday, if you told the psychiatrist you were sad you'd get more anti depressant. If you tell them you're anxious you'd get more Xanax. If you told them you were confused, you'd get more anti psychotic. I was taking more than a dozen medications there ,so many I couldn't even keep track, but luckily they just tell you to come swallow your cup full and do it all for you. I don't enjoy being on medications all the time, it really altered me in very noticeable ways and I didnt' enjoy all the side effects from the medications. The other thing about hospitals is that the stay is relatively short to a program. I stayed like two months because I was constantly being brought back, but most kids seemed to stay like 5-10 days on average and then go into the day treatment program or just go home.

The things at the private program I did not enjoy were the fact it was crowded. We had like 20 kids sleeping in a room altogether on bunk beds and so that was not as good as 2 people per room, but I got used to it pretty quickly. I didn't enjoy that you receive very little attention at the private program I was at, there were too many kids in my opinion and so sometimes it felt like you were just one of many, rather than an individual with individual needs. The food was OK, it wasn't rotten or anything like that, but they served the same stuff all the time so it got old quick, and you couldn't choose to eat whatever you wanted like at the hospital. Things I liked better at the private program were that we were surrounded by nature rather than thick plexiglass windows and bars. I liked that they weren't that thrilled about all the medications I was on, and with my consent I eventually came off all the psychiatric drugs, well most of them, while at the private program. They provided a therapy session once per week, but it didn't compare with the one on one attention of those who helped you at the hospital. They didn't make us clean at the hospital, but we cleaned all the time in the program, of course I didn't like that very much either.

I had some good experiences, and bad experiences at both facilities. They really were quite different. I felt like I fit in more at the psychiatric hospital, at the private program most of the kids were pretty coherent and it was almost more like a really strict school with some focus on emotional growth. While the hospital was like all about treatment, and school came secondary. I suppose that is the difference between behavior modification and psychiatric treatment though, and I guess I see it like the hospital was critical care where I'd end up when in real danger, and the program was just aftercare, to allow some time to pass with me away from my life so I didn't return and once again be admitted to the hospital. The hospital cost $1k+ per day and because my dad had got a job with benefits his insurance payed for it luckily. But the private program was more like $100 a day, so obviously they can't provide the sort of one on one treatment that the hospital did, with their expensive staff and tests, and small group ratio compared to staff. This is America, money talks and bullshit walks. In treatment like anything you seem to get what you pay for. I'm sure I would have loved a more luxurious treatment center for the long term, but you deal with the hand you're dealt.

I am grateful, although I was not at the time, I am now, that I was able to receive such good treatment. I learned a lot about myself and how to take care of myself. Well maybe not. But from what I was doing, being in treatment was a much better place to be than me being left on my own like I was before that.  I won't lie, I enjoyed all the adults taking an interest in me, something that I wasn't used to at that point in my life. Everyone was very nice and I could tell they really wanted to help kids and that was their passion. Some of the best people I've ever met worked at the hospital and program, their heart really was in the right place.  I remember being in the hospital I admired the staff so much, I really wanted to be like them and help kids when "I grew up". Well now that I'm grown up, I can't say I have been responsible enough to work in such a professional field, unfortunately, but I'm trying my best, and if I could I would thank every one of those people who tried to help me, both in the hospital and the program. I'm going to post more about the differences between these types of treatment, when I get some more time, but I wanted to post some thoughts on this matter this morning. Thanks for reading this, and thanks everybody who has responded to this thread so far.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Botched Programming

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #7 on: September 10, 2010, 11:59:46 AM »
In my opinion the reason a psychiatric hospital is because the staff at these places have spend multiple years in training and have the license to deal with the patients, where as most programs hav maybe 1 licensed practicioner on staff and he is not there at all times, plus the fact is the hospital has multiple doctors on staff ready for immediate deployment to take care of the patient... whether it is something small as a headache or maybe need a stitch to the most extreme which would be a full blown psycotic episode..

Not to mention a doctor monitors the meds regularly and adjusts as needbe.

Plus the discussion groups are voluntary participation... you may have to sit in them, but not forced to talk..
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #8 on: September 10, 2010, 12:12:03 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I guess I need to qualify that statement a little better.  At a reputable psychiatric hospital, kids wouldn't be dying of heatstroke ormedial neglect from unqualified staff thinking kids are "being manipulative" (because they've been trained to believe that about the kids) in the numbers/percentages we seem to be seeing in the TTI.  It's definitely more than "1 or 2", but Whooter knew that already.

I think we all knew that , Anne, not just me.  Whether it is 1 or 2 , or 50 ............ programs are much safer than any alternative treatment and safer choice than doing nothing at all.  If we kept repeating the many stories of columbine High school or the many stories of kids being raped by their teachers in public school we could convince ourselves that "all" public schools are abusive and every child had a good chance of getting raped or killed their first day.

I do understand the dangers of sending a child to a program like everyone else here (I think we all have read them here) but the benefits greatly outweigh the risks and turning your back on a child in need just isnt an option for many parents.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Watchful Yeoman

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #9 on: September 10, 2010, 12:20:38 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
I guess I need to qualify that statement a little better.  At a reputable psychiatric hospital, kids wouldn't be dying of heatstroke ormedial neglect from unqualified staff thinking kids are "being manipulative" (because they've been trained to believe that about the kids) in the numbers/percentages we seem to be seeing in the TTI.  It's definitely more than "1 or 2", but Whooter knew that already.


One month after that broadcast, the parents of 15-year-old Erica Harvey (pictured) of Phoenix brought her to the program to deal with her depression and drug use.

"She pleaded with us, 'Daddy, please don't make me go,'" her father Michael said in an interview with ABC News Monday. "All my instincts said, 'Leave this place now,' and I didn't trust my instincts."

Within a day, Erica was dead, after collapsing on her first wilderness trip from heat stroke and dehydration.



Erica is not the only victim. No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.

The parents of scores of children who died or were abused in therapy programs and boot camps are now coming forward, on Web sites and in Congress, to demand a crackdown.

Rep. George Miller, D-Calif., has pushed to improve oversight of the programs. Miller asked the Government Accountability Office to study allegations and cases of negligent deaths and abuse in such programs, and will chair the hearing.

The GAO's findings appalled him, he said.

"Kids being forced to eat their own vomit, to eat dirt, to not be allowed to go to the bathroom...all in the idea that somehow this is building character," he said.



The parents of 16-year-old Aaron Bacon of Arizona say abuse at a wilderness camp in Utah led to the death of their son in 1994.

Aaron "began to complain of a stomach ache, and they called him a faker and a slacker," Sally Bacon told ABC News. "He was in so much pain that he could not carry his pack...They humiliated him, called him names and decided that since he couldn't carry his pack, his food was in his pack so he would go without food."

Like the Harveys, the Bacons will also testify at Tuesday's hearing, chaired by Rep. Miller.

Aaron lost 23 pounds in his month at the camp before he died, because no one realized he had an infected, perforated ulcer, the GAO said. The condition "would have been treatable provided there had been early medical attention," the report states. A draft of the report was obtained by ABC News.

After Aaron's death, the state of Utah revoked the program's operating license, and the program closed three months later, the GAO reports.  

Bacon_071010_mn Click here to read part of Brian Ross' interview with Sally Bacon and her husband Bob.

A spokesperson for the industry's association says such deaths are tragic and agrees new regulations are needed so that good programs can continue to operate.

"We cannot afford to take these away from the parents as an option," Jan Moss, president of the National Association of Therapeutic Schools and Programs. "However, they must be regulated."

But the GAO investigation also found many programs lack the trained counselors or therapeutic procedures they promise.

In February 2001, the parents of 14-year-old Ryan Lewis took him to an outdoor therapy program in West Virginia after he was diagnosed with clinical depression and twice attempted suicide. The program billed itself as being especially prepared to handle cases like Ryan's, the Lewises told ABC News.

One day after threatening to kill himself, Ryan was left alone, accused of being manipulative.

"That night at approximately 7:30 in the evening, he walked off by himself to his camp site and he hung himself," Paul Lewis recounted.

Paul and his wife found out later that despite the operation's marketing, the program Ryan attended had no procedures for handling suicidal behavior by its enrollees.




Alex Cullinane, 13 years old.  Back to Basics Christian Military Academy; subcontracts with Fort Lauderdale-based Juvenile Military Training and Leadership Corp. The camp is run by certified National Guard drill sergeants.  His death is under investigation. 15-year old squad leader Brandon Scott believes he died of dehydration. He did not eat for days, according to other children, and complained of stomach pain. He died in the middle of the night after getting up to use the bathroom.

Alex Harris, 12 years old.  Hope Youth Ranch Minden.  Died of dehydration and blow to the head, allegedly when he was dropped on his head. He was forced to run, said he was thirsty, withheld water, he died of dehydration.


Anthony T. Haynes, 14 years old. America's Buffalo Soldiers (Arizona).  Dehydration and near drowning


Charles Collins, Jr., 15 years old. Camp Oakland/Crossroads for Youth.  Died after allegedly being forced to exercise at the facility after they were told he had an enlarged heart and should not participate in such activities.


Dillon Taylor Peak, 14 years old.  Peace River Outward Bound camp in DeSoto County.  Officials say Dillon apparently died of a severe case of encephalitis. The death remains under investigation. According to an article listed on the  ACLU website, Dillon died after becoming ill and suffering seizures. His parents claim he didn't get medical treatment soon enough, and a state investigation released in January found that, while Outward Bound staffers weren't guilty of neglect, they failed to follow strict guidelines that would have sent Peak to the hospital instead of back to his tent.


Elisa Santry, 16 years old.  Outward Bound, Utah.  Elisa was found dead 5 hours after she was separated from her group when she was hiking in 110 degree weather in the Utah wilderness. Cause of death is being investigated.



Gina Score, 14 years old. South Dakota Training School, Plankinton, SD.  Collapsed (hyperthermia), left out in sun for 3 hours....internal temp at least 108


Ian August, 14 years old. Skyline Journey of Nephi, Utah. Hyperthermia   Hiking


Jamie Young, 13 years old. Ramsey Canyon Hospital & Treatment Center, Arizona. Autopsy found that death was caused by heatstroke with dehydration triggered by 10 times the lethal levels of an antidepressant



Kristen Chase, 16 years old.  Challenger Foundation. Heatstroke


Mark Soares, 16 years old.  Wayside Union Academy.  Cardiac arrest from physical restraint; aides thought teen was faking unconsciousness


Nicholas Contreras, 16 years old.  Arizona Boys Ranch.  Prolonged and serious medical neglect and openly abusive treatment per investigative summary. From one article: "In one case, Contreraz was forced to do pushups with his head over a bucket of feces-smeared clothing..."


Roberto Reyes, 15 years old.  Thayer Learning Center.      

Robert Reyers' cause of death was said to be from a probable spider bite and lack of medical care. Reyes died of rhabdomyolysis. This can be caused by severe exertion, trauma, and heatstroke. All likely consequences of the regime at Thayer Learning Center. Without the basis of any evidence the coroner claimed Reyes died of a probable spider bite. However, they could not even find a spider bite on his body. Additionally, spider bite is not one of the causes of rhabdomyolysis.

This is an excellent post with some really revealing information on exactly how dangerous these programs really are.  BUT, to ask if a program is better than a psyche hospital is a complete conflation of the issues.  

Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs.  Hospitals treat the most acute cases.  Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed.  Aspen stated in court that they simply don't provide any treatment at all.  Programs serve no useful psychological function whatsoever.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"The ricketty and scrofulous little wretch who first sees the light in a work-house, or in a brothel, and who feels the effects of alcohol before the effects of vital air, is not equal in any respect to the ruddy offspring of the honest yeoman; nay, I will go further, and say that a prince, provided he is no better born than royal blood will make him, is not equal to the healthy son of a peasant." [/i]

-John Randolph

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #10 on: September 10, 2010, 12:25:22 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
I think we all knew that , Anne, not just me.  Whether it is 1 or 2 , or 50 ............ programs are much safer than any alternative treatment


Wow....that's a pretty bold statement.  Got anything to back it up?   IOW, Citation needed.  

 And it was incredibly disingenuous of you to state that it was only "1 or 2" kids how died from heat stroke or heat exhaustion when you knew different.


Quote
and safer choice than doing nothing at all.

Not if they're programs that use LGATs and attack therapy.  It would be much better to leave the kid alone that expose him to daily humiliation and attack "therapy", IMO and personal experience.


Quote
I do understand the dangers of sending a child to a program

No, you really don't unless you've been exposed to that kind of "therapy" (the LGATs and attacking/humiliation)

Quote
like everyone else here (I think we all have read them here) but the benefits greatly outweigh the risks


In your opinion.


Quote
and turning your back on a child in need just isnt an option for many parents.

I don't think anyone's suggested that.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Watchful Yeoman

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2010, 12:30:52 PM »
Quote from: "GAO Report"
No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.

Since no national statistics are kept and state-level data shows 1,600 incidences of abuse in parent-choice programs in just the year 2005 (in only 33 states), it appears claims about the "safety" of programs is simply a machination of someone's imagination.  There are no facts to support that conclusion whatsoever.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
"The ricketty and scrofulous little wretch who first sees the light in a work-house, or in a brothel, and who feels the effects of alcohol before the effects of vital air, is not equal in any respect to the ruddy offspring of the honest yeoman; nay, I will go further, and say that a prince, provided he is no better born than royal blood will make him, is not equal to the healthy son of a peasant." [/i]

-John Randolph

Offline Whooter

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2010, 12:40:04 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Wow....that's a pretty bold statement. Got anything to back it up? IOW, Citation needed.

And it was incredibly disingenuous of you to state that it was only "1 or 2" kids how died from heat stroke or heat exhaustion when you knew different.

You changed it from "heat stroke" to "heat stroke and medical neglect".  I believe I was correct in saying there have only been 1 or 2 kids who died due to heat stroke during that time period.  I haven't changed my original opinion.

As far as backing it up with a citation.  I will follow the general rules which are accepted here.  If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also.  I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.

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Not if they're programs that use LGATs and attack therapy. It would be much better to leave the kid alone that expose him to daily humiliation and attack "therapy", IMO and personal experience.
To send a child anyplace where they would be abused would not be a good thing.  It would be better to keep them home.

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No, you really don't unless you've been exposed to that kind of "therapy" (the LGATs and attacking/humiliation)
Yes, actually, I do.



...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Shadyacres

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #13 on: September 10, 2010, 12:42:43 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"

I do understand the dangers of sending a child to a program like everyone else here (I think we all have read them here) but the benefits greatly outweigh the risks and turning your back on a child in need just isnt an option for many parents.
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No, I don't think you do understand.  Many, if not most, of the kids sent to these places are NOT in serious danger.  They disagree with, or are defiant towards, their parents.  Or they are skipping school, or their parents found weed in their room.  All of these behaviors, even truancy, can be considered relatively normal teenage behavior.  But then their parents put them into a "treatment center" that forcibly indoctrinates them into the toxic "powerlessness" ideology of AA, using well known COERCIVE MIND CONTROL TECHNIQUES.  Now the formally normal teen believes himself to be an incurable drug addict with serious character flaws who will certainly die without constant direction from his new moral compass, the program.  He now has nightmares of his traumatic experience in that place that will last him decades.  How do you quantify all the psychological destruction caused by these places?  I was a child in need, but what I needed was for my parents to care, not sweep me under a rug.  Public high schools are not perfect, but at least they do not practice coercive thought reform, as far as I know.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #14 on: September 10, 2010, 12:48:17 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"

You changed it from "heat stroke" to "heat stroke and medical neglect".  I believe I was correct in saying there have only been 1 or 2 kids who died due to heat stroke during that time period.  I haven't changed my original opinion.


Before I even got half way down the page on Caica's Death list, I counted 9.

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As far as backing it up with a citation.  I will follow the general rules which are accepted here.  If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also.  I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.

I didn't say either of those things.  So, citation please.

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To send a child anyplace where they would be abused would not be a good thing.  It would be better to keep them home.

Now we're getting somewhere.


Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
No, you really don't unless you've been exposed to that kind of "therapy" (the LGATs and attacking/humiliation)

Quote from: "Whooter"
Yes, actually, I do.

How so?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa