Author Topic: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?  (Read 6326 times)

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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2010, 12:50:18 PM »
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
This is an excellent post with some really revealing information on exactly how dangerous these programs really are.  BUT, to ask if a program is better than a psyche hospital is a complete conflation of the issues.  

Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs.  Hospitals treat the most acute cases.  Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed.  Aspen stated in court that they simply don't provide any treatment at all.  Programs serve no useful psychological function whatsoever.


Quite true and an excellent point.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
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Offline Watchful Yeoman

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2010, 12:54:02 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
As far as backing it up with a citation. I will follow the general rules which are accepted here. If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also. I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.

It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it?  We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination.  Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement.  It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.  

I have seen no evidence whatsoever to support anything even remotely resembling that remark.  In fact, it is quite the opposite.  Available data suggest that these programs are actually quite dangerous to life and limb, not to mention a child's mind.
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"The ricketty and scrofulous little wretch who first sees the light in a work-house, or in a brothel, and who feels the effects of alcohol before the effects of vital air, is not equal in any respect to the ruddy offspring of the honest yeoman; nay, I will go further, and say that a prince, provided he is no better born than royal blood will make him, is not equal to the healthy son of a peasant." [/i]

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Offline Froderik

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2010, 12:56:30 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"
and turning your back on a child in need just isnt an option for many parents.

I don't think anyone's suggested that.

Right, no one did.
There are good solutions and bad "solutions" for things.

Then you have your "lesser of two evils" scenarios that otherwise intelligent minds often get mired in. (Better to keep the mind focused on the absolute best solution (like really being a parent, for instance) rather than considering either of the lesser appealing options.)
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Offline shaggys

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2010, 01:07:44 PM »
Very interesting conversation here and I appreciate the civility as well - believe it or not. Since max is being particularly nice today I thought i might ask this (fair) question: Since you are obviously not an ignorant person and seem to want to have a legitimate discussion, then why do you continue to use program buzz words and phrases that you must know are guaranteed to provoke the strongest and most negative responses? After being in Straight inc I absolutely hate terms thrown around like "manipulative" and such. But you know this Max cause you aint dumb. So why choose to say things and phrase things like you are speaking right out of some program script? Cant you understand that for those of us who never belonged in a program in the first place would automatically become offended by having program terminology used to describe us.
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Offline Son Of Serbia

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2010, 04:11:07 PM »
Quote from: "shaggys"
Very interesting conversation here and I appreciate the civility as well - believe it or not. Since max is being particularly nice today I thought i might ask this (fair) question: Since you are obviously not an ignorant person and seem to want to have a legitimate discussion, then why do you continue to use program buzz words and phrases that you must know are guaranteed to provoke the strongest and most negative responses? After being in Straight inc I absolutely hate terms thrown around like "manipulative" and such. But you know this Max cause you aint dumb. So why choose to say things and phrase things like you are speaking right out of some program script? Cant you understand that for those of us who never belonged in a program in the first place would automatically become offended by having program terminology used to describe us.

Isn't it obvious? Max is a self-admitted product of one of these programs.  I don't believe
he conciously chooses to to use program buzz words, he just can't help it.  Max expresses his views according to how he was programmed too.  It's no mystery why Max sounds like he's reading the program's script - because he is, and it's the same exact script they make all
the programmies memorize.   No original thought what-so-ever, just regurgitating the same pro-program bullshit over and over again.
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2010, 05:04:59 PM »
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"

It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it?  We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination.  Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement.  It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.  

Thanks, Watchful Yeoman, its a good point.  So basically you are saying that when someone states that abuse occurs in "all" programs this is what you call "Simply made up from the posters imagination".  So in order to avoid being nonfactual posters should refrain from making blanket statements like programs are abusive.. rather they should state that their personal experience was an abusive one.

I think we can agree here because there is no evidence or studies to support that all programs are abusive so we need to be clear and to avoid blanket statements is what I am hearing.
This leaves us with the fact that some programs are abusive and others are not which is a realistic conclusion based on the above posts.



...
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Offline shaggys

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #21 on: September 10, 2010, 05:24:54 PM »
Quote from: "Son Of Serbia"
Quote from: "shaggys"
Very interesting conversation here and I appreciate the civility as well - believe it or not. Since max is being particularly nice today I thought i might ask this (fair) question: Since you are obviously not an ignorant person and seem to want to have a legitimate discussion, then why do you continue to use program buzz words and phrases that you must know are guaranteed to provoke the strongest and most negative responses? After being in Straight inc I absolutely hate terms thrown around like "manipulative" and such. But you know this Max cause you aint dumb. So why choose to say things and phrase things like you are speaking right out of some program script? Cant you understand that for those of us who never belonged in a program in the first place would automatically become offended by having program terminology used to describe us.

Isn't it obvious? Max is a self-admitted product of one of these programs.  I don't believe
he conciously chooses to to use program buzz words, he just can't help it.  Max expresses his views according to how he was programmed too.  It's no mystery why Max sounds like he's reading the program's script - because he is, and it's the same exact script they make all
the programmies memorize.   No original thought what-so-ever, just regurgitating the same pro-program bullshit over and over again.

At straight we had these things called open meetings. This was a Friday night event where parents and interested persons were brought into the building to view the program. These were always very carefully scripted events. People were preselected to stand up and give "testimonials" to the audience. I guess part of the reason Max irritates me so much is that his posts here sound word for word like these "testimonials". They take me right back to that place. Sitting there and listening to those coerced confessions.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #22 on: September 10, 2010, 06:07:23 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it?  We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination.  Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement.  It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.  
Thanks, Watchful Yeoman, its a good point.  So basically you are saying that when someone states that abuse occurs in "all" programs this is what you call "Simply made up from the posters imagination".  So in order to avoid being nonfactual posters should refrain from making blanket statements like programs are abusive.. rather they should state that their personal experience was an abusive one.

I think we can agree here because there is no evidence or studies to support that all programs are abusive so we need to be clear and to avoid blanket statements is what I am hearing.
This leaves us with the fact that some programs are abusive and others are not which is a realistic conclusion based on the above posts.
Programs which utilize coercive thought reform techniques are inherently abusive by the very nature of their "treatment" modalities, wouldn't you agree?
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #23 on: September 10, 2010, 06:19:47 PM »
I thought the topic was, "Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?" Why are we not talking about this. It seems instead we are continually diverted into whether coerced thought reform is bad and people do not deserved to be abused, which are great topics in and of themselves but are not directly related to where this thread was supposed to go.
Addressing this topic,
Simple answer is no and yes. Depends upon the needs for certain children. Children are being sent to TC's that should have been placed in Psychiatric facilities and visa versa. I was placed in a PW when I was young for running away from home, stealing and down right belligerence. This is when I learned about Thorazine, especially when you were misbehaving there. Thank god my mother came when she did.
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Offline Ursus

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #24 on: September 10, 2010, 06:28:10 PM »
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs.  Hospitals treat the most acute cases.  Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed.
Kids are also sent to psych hospitals for no good reason as well. Sometimes even court-ordered there. Some well-meaning judges feel that such a stay would be preferable to a stint in Juvie for "soft-core" cases such as running away or truancy, particularly when no other "safe" alternative exists locally. Of course, once the hospital gets ahold of the kid, they pathologize the situation 'till the parents' health insurance coverage runs out.

Sometimes the paper trail originates in the local public school, particularly if the kid is an inordinately live wire and the school Admins would rather prefer to deal with a more compliant and perhaps even chemically lobotomized pupil. Mandatory psychiatric "assessments" can then be called for, particularly when enough incident reports have been compiled to cover their asses in case of parental protest. These days, hospitals EXPECT to be medicating any kid that comes through their doors for such an assessment. And so it starts, sometimes for no good reason at all...
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #25 on: September 10, 2010, 06:40:34 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Kids sent to psyche hospitals would have no business being in programs.  Hospitals treat the most acute cases.  Programs, on the other hand, will take anyone who can afford it and often deliver no treatment whatsoever, as a lawsuit against Aspen Education Group recently revealed.
Kids are also sent to psych hospitals for no good reason as well. Sometimes even court-ordered there. Some well-meaning judges feel that such a stay would be preferable to a stint in Juvie for "soft-core" cases such as running away or truancy, particularly when no other "safe" alternative exists locally. Of course, once the hospital gets ahold of the kid, they pathologize the situation 'till the parents' health insurance coverage runs out.

Sometimes the paper trail originates in the local public school, particularly if the kid is an inordinately live wire and the school Admins would rather prefer to deal with a more compliant and perhaps even chemically lobotomized pupil. Mandatory psychiatric "assessments" can then be called for, particularly when enough incident reports have been compiled to cover their asses in case of parental protest. These days, hospitals EXPECT to be medicating any kid that comes through their doors for such an assessment. And so it starts, sometimes for no good reason at all...

You are absolutely dead on there, Ursus. I was sent by a recommendation by the school board and my parents. ( Mind you, my parents did not fess up to the abuse going on in the household.) The State of R.I. paid for this stay of abuse.
Oh and I am sure to have compiled a inordinately amount of "papertrail" concerning my behavior in school and out.
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Offline Maximilian

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #26 on: September 10, 2010, 06:47:43 PM »
I noticed a lot of kids in the hospitals would stay for very short periods of time like five days. Many insurance companies won't pay that much for psychiatric care. I think a big reason private programs exist is because there is a demand for something not quite as acute as hospitalization but also more than just local therapy and such.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #27 on: September 10, 2010, 06:53:33 PM »
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "GAO Report"
No national statistics are currently kept, but a 2005 survey by the Department of Health and Human Services found that 33 states had recorded more than 1,600 incidents of abused children in similar programs that year, according to the GAO.

Since no national statistics are kept and state-level data shows 1,600 incidences of abuse in parent-choice programs in just the year 2005 (in only 33 states), it appears claims about the "safety" of programs is simply a machination of someone's imagination.  There are no facts to support that conclusion whatsoever.

Well Yeo, they really don't detail whether those 1600 incidences were factual or not either, were they investigated and proven to be true or were they summited in a report to be evaluated.
So, Who???? is making what up, really.
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #28 on: September 10, 2010, 06:58:41 PM »
Quote from: "Watchful Yeoman"
Quote from: "Whooter"
As far as backing it up with a citation. I will follow the general rules which are accepted here. If people can state that "All Programs are Abusive" and "no kids benefit from them" without a link to a study which supports it then I think it is fair to allow other people to post without citing their sources also. I am not being difficult, Anne, just trying to be fair.

It seems we've found some common ground then, doesn't it?  We are in agreement that the last post by this user that claimed that programs are safer than any other form of treatment was simply made up from his/her imagination.  Of course there is no data to suggest the veracity of that statement.  It's simply a factually unsupported opinion of this single poster repeated ad nauseum on this single forum.  

I have seen no evidence whatsoever to support anything even remotely resembling that remark.  In fact, it is quite the opposite.  Available data suggest that these programs are actually quite dangerous to life and limb, not to mention a child's mind.

There is no evidence that you have put forth that even comes close to what you are trying to convince posters here of. Anyone can grab a snippet here and there to claim whatever. Just like you said, it is your imagination and or experience depending upon the day and where you want your argument to go.
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Offline Bandit73

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Re: Is psychiatric hospitalization better than a program?
« Reply #29 on: September 16, 2010, 09:23:45 AM »
Quote from: "asha-kun"
1.  Psychiatric wards have edible, non-moldy food and real live canned beverages.

Children's Psychiatric Hospital of Northern Kentucky doesn't.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2010, 09:28:26 AM by Bandit73 »