Suicide

[SUCK IT]

I thought I'd start a topic on a different topic than the usual discussions about programs. This topic is about suicide.

do you think suicide is a justifiable option for people to take? Or do you think we have a right to be angry with people who choose to do this? I have known people who have done it and I don't know what to think really. It doesn't really matter to get mad at them because they are gone. But at the same time I think that people should be able to do with their lives that they want. But I think people who kill themselves have a mental illness, that is temporary and that if it can be addressed and get them through the crisis most people will not feel that way 100% of the time.

I wonder sometimes what percentage of people kill themselves on a whim, like after a breakup or job loss and see a bridge and jump off it, compared to people who think about it for a long time and buy a gun, wait out the waiting period, and then still go ahead and do it. I also wonder if people purposely make suicide look like an accident, like a car accident or something so the people who know them don't realize they did it on purpose. This seems like a risky option because what if you didn't die and ended up in a wheelchair or something, I would be worried about that when crashing my car on purpose or something like that. I'm sure there are other ways to make it look like an accident I'm not aware of though.

I think suicide is a big problem in our society, more people die of suicide than do of terrorism but there isn't much money spent on preventing it. This is a problem that strikes people of all types, from rich to poor, from girls to boys, and all races and populations on the world. I think it's a serious problem that needs to be addressed. So let's have a discussion about it. Have you ever thought about suicide? Why did you feel that way? What made you decide to not go through with it? What do you think is the best way to help people who are at risk or talking about suicide?

[Anne Bonney]

Well, seeing as you posted the topic in a message board dedicated to discussing the TTI, it's quite appropriate.  I've lost several wonderful people that have killed themselves because they said they couldn't handle the damage done to them in Straight.  I also visited one of my best friends in the hospital here (they live elsewhere but came here to die where the damage was done) because they attempted, and damn near succeeded, in offing themselves.  It's not a pretty sight, it's not funny, it's not mere coincidence.  These people I've spoken with (especially the very dear friend of mine) directly said that they didn't know how to deal with the damage that was done while in Straight and what it did to their family.  That's the reason I say that the damage is deep and LASTING.  Hell, I've finally gotten to the point where I can at least deal with it thru REAL therapy and the help of some amazing friends and a helluva family (except my father, he still thinks he did the right thing even though I got much worse after 'graduating').  What was done to us, especially at the age when we're developing into adulthood, is no less than torture.  I know that sounds melodramatic, but it's not.  I came damn close many times because for years I believed what they told me about myself.  When I say that it's like taking an egg scrambler to your psyche, I'm not exaggerating.

Then when I saw the 1974 Sam Ervin report stating that Straight used the same tactics on us that the Koreans used on our POWs, it blew my mind.  Yes, I realize that he was speaking about the Seed, but we all know that Straight was a direct descendant of the Seed and in a lot of ways, worse from what I've heard from Seed survivors.

My commedt in blue below.

http://reason.com/archives/2006/12/28/t ... led-teen/1

In 1974 Sen. Sam Ervin, the North Carolina Democrat best known for heading the congressional committee that investigated Watergate, presented a report to Congress entitled “Individual Rights and the Federal Role in Behavior Modification.” Ervin and other members of Congress were concerned about federal funding for efforts to change people’s behavior against their will, seeing a fundamental threat to liberty if such efforts were successful. The report cited The Seed as an example of programs that “begin by subjecting the individual to isolation and humiliation in a conscious effort to break down his psychological defenses.” It concluded that such programs are “similar to the highly refined brainwashing techniques employed by the North Koreans in the early 1950’s.”

The Seed Germinates
Ervin’s report led Congress to cut off The Seed’s funding. But The Seed had produced two important true believers: Mel Sembler, who went on to serve as campaign finance chairman for the Republican Party during the 2000 election season and as U.S. ambassador to Italy from 2001 to 2005, and Joseph Zappala, who would go on to serve under the first President Bush as ambassador to Spain and who at the time was also a major Republican campaign donor.

In 1976 Sembler and Zappala founded a program virtually identical to The Seed, staffed by former Seed parents and participants (including some who had become Seed staffers). They named it Straight Incorporated.  The federal agency that had funded The Seed, the Law Enforcement Assistance Agency, had been barred from funding further human experiments because neither the agency nor projects like The Seed had procedures for informed consent. Despite that fact, and despite the congressional critique of The Seed, Straight soon received federal money from the same agency. It, too, never informed parents that it was experimental.

Straight expanded rapidly in the ’80s, around the same time newspapers, TV, and other media were filled with dire warnings about the dangers of crack. Nancy Reagan called it her “favorite” drug program. In fact, it was a visit to Straight, suggested by Sembler, that had inspired the first lady to make drugs her cause.  I was there for her little visit.  They locked up the "misbehavors" in the time out rooms so Nancy couldn't hear the screams.

[SUCK IT]

Thank you Anne Bonney for your informed and informational post. I am wondering what if anything you think can be done to help people who are thinking about suicide? Did your friend regret attempting suicide, or did they end up trying it again later on? Again, thanks for your post.

[Anne Bonney]

Thank you Anne Bonney for your informed and informational post. I am wondering what if anything you think can be done to help people who are thinking about suicide? Did your friend regret attempting suicide, or did they end up trying it again later on? Again, thanks for your post.

They somewhat regretted it, but then when the PTSD hit them hard again, they started thining about it.  


Did you read the Sam Ervin report?  If so, what do you think of it?  The Seed lost its funding because of the report but because Sembler was so rich and powerful in St. Pete, he just started his own and from what I hear from Seedlings, Straight was worse.  IMO, mainly because of Virgil Miller Newton.  If I believed in god or the devil, Virgil would be the devil.

[SUCK IT]

I know some of the older programs were really bad. I'm glad they don't exist anymore. I don't consider my own experience to be like those who had negative experiences, but I believe those who claim it was bad. I have no reason. not to. I have not read a lot of reports about it though, but I understand your point. I hope when people seek treatment it is helpful and positive experience, not a bad and negative experience. I think everyone can agree on that.

It's interesting that people have reoccurring thoughts of suicide.  How can people like that be helped? Our government spends billions fighting things like terrorism, but when it comes to big killers like suicide, it's like it doesn't even exist. I feel like it is an epidemic, and so disturbing that I think it needs to be addressed more. But I don't have any solutions, all I have is questions. Maybe it's just a part of the human condition, I don't know.

[DannyB II]

Anne, I also want to thank you for your post.
I have another experience to relate. Every person I have met that committed suicide or attempted also had a dysfunctional relationship with there parent, parents or guardian. There was a severe lack of trust and a strong feeling by the child that they felt not loved or cared for. This situation was happening long before they (parents) made the decision to set in motion this calamity of errors, sending their child to Straight or Elan. To add more injury to the child, during their stay at these facilities the impaired relationship got worse and upon leaving the relationship still received no encouragement.
Some parents just did not have a clue for multiple reasons.
Anne I place the blame right at the feet of the parents not the programs.
Just my two cents from experience.

[none-ya]

Anne Bonney wrote:
Then when I saw the 1974 Sam Ervin report stating that Straight used the same tactics on us that the Koreans used on our POWs, it blew my mind. Yes, I realize that he was speaking about the Seed, but we all know that Straight was a direct descendant of the Seed and in a lot of ways, worse from what I've heard from Seed survivors.

Absolutly 100 o/o factual, actual , everything is satisfactional
zippidy do da zip
Sorry. For a moment there.....

[justonemore]

Anne;   Excellent post and thanks, You may wish to read The physiology of brainwashing and conversion, Wm. Sargent, about 1955, or Donald Mclean, out of Toronto, about mid-70's.
Sargent worked at putting men back together, Mclean worked at taking them apart. Mclean's work is harder to find, and much of it is classified.(Still!) Thanks again.J.O.M.

[DannyB II]

I love this, now we have Suicides, Child Molesters, Murderers of Parents, James Ray and who knows what else will be blamed on Programs/Treatment Centers.
I'm sure there is a study out there associating "turtle groping/fondling/molesting to gross negligence of bathroom privileges.

[Whooter]

Great discussion!

My thoughts are that people who commit suicide are trying to escape a very difficult situation and dying seems like the only way out at that point for them.  I would think teenagers would be most susceptible to this because they have little life experience to deal with overwhelming emotions and feelings of rejection, anger, guilt, feeling unloved or victimized.  Teenagers are more trapped than adults because they don’t have the resources to make a change and running away to start over means living on the streets.  Anyone who has raised a son or daughter through the teenage years knows that these feelings affect almost every child, but if you couple this with Bipolar Disorder, Alcohol/Substance Use Disorders, Schizophrenia, Borderline Personality Disorder or Suppressed bad memories of childhood then the risk could increase substantially if the child doesn’t get the help he/she needs.

I think in older adults suicide is less of an option because they would be leaving a family high and dry without support and life insurance doesn’t pay out for suicides.  This brings up the question (some else raised this also) of how many accidental deaths are actually planned so that they could leave their families better off financially.

Later in life suicide is driven by an erosion of a persons quality of life.  Once a persons' quality of life drops below what they feel is tolerable long term then suicide is considered.  In cases of terminal cancer for example.

So I believe most suicides are the result of being in a situation in which the person feels hopeless.  These feelings can be amplified by mental illness or substance abuse/ disorder or a chemical imbalance.  If there were defined signs that we could look out for and we could intervene I believe that most feelings of suicide could be abated by very simple intervention and time.  I don’t feel people spend their whole lives wishing to die, just small segments in which they become vulnerable and we miss the opportunity to save them.



...

[none-ya]

Whooter wrote:
 I believe most suicides are the result of being in a situation in which the person feels hopeless

Really? No shit! You gotta' be kidding me!

[T-Rex]

Whooter wrote:
"If there were defined signs that we could look out for and we could intervene I believe that most feelings of suicide could be abated by very simple intervention and time. I don’t feel people spend their whole lives wishing to die, just small segments in which they become vulnerable and we miss the opportunity to save them".

Whooter, I am new here and I thought I would sort of introduce myself by saying thank you for your comments concerning suicide. Especially the comments above.
Families do miss the signs, especially in today two parent working households, children are left alone and unattended to for far to long, on a day to day bases.
Parents do need to pay attention more today then ever, it seems that mental disorders and personality disorders are more prevalent today then ever, this could also have to do with the large baby boomers population and consequently their large population of children.
I agree people do not wish to die from the time they were born, at least anecdotally I don't think so. That is why I believe that having a spiritual inner guide during times when trust with humans has been compromised is so important.
This forum is very interesting, in so far as the people here seem to miss opportunities to really join together and send a message to the public. That we are diverse in our opinions yet we are not in our ambitions to see children are not abused.
I had some thoughts I wanted to share, I have been poking around for about a month, just trying to get a feel for the place here. Whether I would fit in or not. I think I can have some positive input here. We will see.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Oh so now the troll brigade wants to talk about suicide?

Let's talk about Layne Brown. Layne went to Tranquility Bay. He came back with serious problems (no shit!). He tried to talk to the Kays to make them admit what they did to him; they didn't respond. One guess as to what he ended up doing (shame it didn't involve the Kays, though).

David J. Chalmers sure had his addictions treated by ASR, didn't he?

Richard DeMaar, part of the Pile, managed to kill himself in the Laurel Ridge Treatment Center.

Seattle Children's Home. They KNEW Ashlie Bunch was suicidal. They had her on five-minute suicide watch. Eh, we can just sluff this off, right?

Ooh, here's one. Franklin McGill. He went to MBA, Hyde, AND Sober Living By the Sea. So this comes as really no surprise.

[Whooter]

Here are some actual numbers (not sure if all the links are still working):

There is a clear advantage in having a child in a private program versus the public sector.

I think you will see that after you eliminate the state run hospitals and boot camps the numbers look pretty good.

You can click on the program type to get more detail if needed.[/b]
__________________________________________________________________

July 1, 2000 thru June 2001   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,466 Homicides and 1,493 suicides   , 2,959 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 1 suicides, ----- 1 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2001 thru June 2002   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,468 Homicides and 1,400 suicides   , 2,868 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2002 thru June 2003   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,515 Homicides and 1,331 suicides   , 2,846 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
___________________________________________________________________________
July 1, 2003 thru June 2004   Children 8-18 years of age.

Public Sector: -------There were 1,437 Homicides and 1,285 suicides   , 2,722 Total  (NCES, CDC)

Therapeutic Industry:

TBS ---------------------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

Wilderness -----------There were 0 Homicides, 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Total Industry -------There were 0 Homicides , 0 suicides, ----- 0 Total

TBS - Therapeutic Boarding Schools
 NCES National Center for Education Statistics
CDC -- Centers for Disease Control and Prevention
* - Data found here on fornits, internet news articles (caica.org, isaccorp.org), posts and PM?s....  All deaths are verified thru local news articles.
X -- Incomplete or unavailable

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Aaaaaaaand here Whooter is with his bullshit copypasta again. Was refuted the first time he posted it, no point bothering going through that again.