Fornits group think

[Whooter]

But Paul, by your own admittance you don’t see this treatment as being effective for anyone.  So your point of view is biased and could put people in danger.  We don’t have the whole history of Morgan and her family.  A third party should be involved to determine if residential treatment is needed.  There is this desperation to avoid a program at “all costs” here on fornits (even if it means hurting a 15 year old girl, we have seen this happen) when we know there are good programs out there and they can be very effective.  Thousands of kids go through them each year without getting hurt and up to 80% getting the help they need by their own accord.

Go back and look at the same situation only that the 15 year old girl is going off to receive Chemo.  Would the same advice apply if I personally felt Chemo would do more harm than good.  Should she bankrupt her family, stab her parents or commit a crime so that she goes to prison?  Would we tell her to run away?   Does the girl have a say at age 15 to determine if Chemo is the best route for her?  Do the parents have a say?  Am I doing good by stating that as long as I am alive no one that I am close to will ever receive Chemotherapy?  Do we have the right to intercede in other families affairs to that level of involvement?



...

[DannyB II]

I would also like to add. These threads I post are an attempt to explain the extreme advice given by the people I talked about earlier. I thought maybe they were "trolls" or in other words just joking about their advice, but after observing it appears they actually believe what they are saying. Does nobody else find it strange somebody could actually believe in their own mind, that murdering someone, sending yourself to jail, running away, bankrupting your own family, is somehow better than just going to a treatment center with no history of abuse?

I admit that I am conflicted here.  I do find it crazy recommend to a 15 year old girl that she murder someone, opt for jail, run away , or bankrupt her family.  That is my initial reaction. I find those ideas crazy, and I want nothing to do with them.

You should be conflicted, your writing about a 15 year old child.

Then there is this other bottom-line logic that someone like Pile can no doubt rouse up in me.

- If you are being forced to go somewhere, against your will, that you perceive to be a threat, do you have the right to defend yourself, even to the point, of ending the life, of another(the person applying force to you), if it became absolutely necessary? Although, it would probably not put you in a good place in society, and strategically would be a stupid move, is it morally wrong?

 .


( I don't want to get into too much detail, because the lives of people I know are no one here's business, unless they wanted to talk about them, but as vague, as I can be, growing up, I had a friend, who was a really good guy.  He left one morning to go on a family vacation, that really wasn t. One minute he is sitting in his car, excited about his destination, the next he si surrounded by a bunch of cultist-fucks, trying to physically force him, into their "family-school".  He tried to defend himself with a baseball bat, and it's worth mentioning he was a peaceful guy.

I don't know... as adults, you view things differently- more practical.. but as a kid, 17 years ago, I was proud of him. He was defending himself.  He had problems, but everybody did. It was part of growing up.)


-Now, the jail-thing... For Morgan, No!  I would definitely not recommend jail.  I think she would be better off floating her way through the program, but I do know of people who opted for jail, over going back to Daytop, which wasn t really nearly as bad as some other places, and afterwards, they were really glad they did it.

Were they not close to being 18yrs of age. I have not met one person who was happier for being in juvie then in a program. Paul have you ever been in juvie or prison?


Running away- again, not for Morgan.. but perhaps for some, in her situation..  We gotta remember here.  They didn t give her any outs.  They told her that if she did this, and that, she didn t have to go, but when she agreed, she still had to go no matter what.  dad was willing to keep his promise, but mom had made her mind up long ago... And it s also worth mentioning here, that while I strongly disagree with what Pile did, with the posting of the info and such, I don t disagree that the parents are assholes, and the things that I learned from what he posted, only confirmed that further for me.  I am not gonna jump on Danny B's boat about "Parent Abuse".  Adults can take care of themselves, which is clearly demonstrated by how people deal with his attacks. When I saw the pics of Morgan's mom, I asked myself, "and what program shall we send this one too?"

Paul here we are again. You never ran away, even as you were taken to Daytop. You would never allow a 15 yr. old child to run away or even suggest it if you were a parent.
We don't know really what went on in that household of Morgan and her parents. We got a brief glimpse of that family like a snapshot. Out of that we got this aggressive onslaught from individuals that were angry at other posters for giving advice contrary to theirs.  

My opinion based on what I saw, is that she wants her "troubled" daughter out of the way, so she has less impediments to pursue her own troubles.

What did you see, you spent the weekend with them?

I went off on a tangent there, but I would say that in her situation, there might be some who would be better off running away.  I am basing this on my memories and experiences from when I was a child. Today I would never consider giving that as advice though.  (hence, my being conflicted)

Terrible advice and I don't believe it for a minute, this talk is for your buddies. Get real Paul.


Bankrupting your own family to avoid going?  I gotta admit it sounds really fucked up, and selfiish to me..

But now let's say you are a kid, and don t want to be shipped off.  Your parents are sending you away with little regard, or any curiosity about how you feel about it.  We all spoke to Morgan.  She was a very intelligent, mature young woman.  We are not talking about a girl getting high on drugs, inflicting harm against herself, a pyro -maniac, or any other shit.  What is her best defense?  Her family has turned her back on her, is it morally wrong for her to attempt to bankrupt her family for protection from them?  I don t know.. She would only be trying to defend herself.. I wouldn t offer it as advice, because in the end, she will only be making more problems for herself.  It is a dumb silly idea.  DJ is silly.  It is ashame too.  because if he matured a bit, he could be very effective.

We do not know from 3 conversations on the phone and internet conversations that Morgan does not have problems. That is a fact. We can pass judgment on her parents all we want, they did seem a little weird. I must say though we should hold back all these assumptions, unless Paul they are just your opinions.



In my life, I don t have to worry about none of this shit.  I just know, somehow, that no one that I care about, will go to one of these programs, so long as I am alive.  I trust myself to make sure of that, as sure as the sky is blue, without my having to do anything stupid, reccomend anything stupid, or cause harm to anyone.

Well bully for you. Remember though have at least some facts of the situation.

Paul St. John

[Paul St. John]

But Paul, by your own admittance you don’t see this treatment as being effective for anyone.  So your point of view is biased and could put people in danger.

My point of view is not biased.  it is defined. There is a difference.  If we assume that I am biased, we are assuming that your point of view is reality, and mine is arbitrary.  We haven t determined this, Whooter


 We don’t have the whole history of Morgan and her family.

We don't Whooter.. but a lot of times, things just are what they seem. Even if we don t know the specifics, I think we got enough information, to be pretty confident with workable generalizations, and even if not, nothing is lost for me, because the only thing I ever told the girl, is to be strong regardless of the outcome.  I don t think that there is any danger in being strong.



 A third party should be involved to determine if residential treatment is needed.


Honestly, I think it is better off in the hands of the parents then a third party.  To me, that is like a double wrong.

Also, any program that operates with integrity should themselves turn down a child who does not require treatment.  You would expect it of a contractor, or a mechanic, or a surgeon, so why not a program?



 There is this desperation to avoid a program at “all costs” here on fornits (even if it means hurting a 15 year old girl, we have seen this happen) when we know there are good programs out there and they can be very effective.


I don't think anyone here is motivated by the idea of hurting a person.  Even those who are misguided are trying to protect against a child being hurt.  You have never been a kid in a program.  You do not know what it is like.  Like I said, no one I care about will end up in one.  My loved ones value their individuality, and I will not see it attacked.. I have seen too much in my life.  I understand how this shit works.. It is not necessary for most, if any



 Thousands of kids go through them each year without getting hurt and up to 80% getting the help they need by their own accord.

This is all debatable.


Go back and look at the same situation only that the 15 year old girl is going off to receive Chemo.  Would the same advice apply if I personally felt Chemo would do more harm than good.  Should she bankrupt her family, stab her parents or commit a crime so that she goes to prison?


I never said that Morgan should do any of these things, but again, we are assuming that you are right in your analogies.  You are assuming A. that the person has a life-threatening problem, and B. that programs are the cure.




 Would we tell her to run away?   Does the girl have a say at age 15 to determine if Chemo is the best route for her?  Do the parents have a say?  Am I doing good by stating that as long as I am alive no one that I am close to will ever receive Chemotherapy?

No, you wouldn t be.  But I state again, that as long as I am alive, no one that I care about, will end up in a program. I know I am right.  I know that you might not ever understand it, but I trust my heart and it works well for me.




 Do we have the right to intercede in other families affairs to that level of involvement?

If I love someone I have the right to help them, and there is no logic or debate that matters beyond that statement, because if the situation were to present itself, all your logic would mean nothing, as I carry out exactly what I say, without any of the doomsday occurrences that those who might want to discourage me, might put forth.





...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

What I like most about these threads is that they think I'm somehow answerable to them, or their continuous posting of bullshit is somehow going to get me to stop.

[Paul St. John]

What I like most about these threads is that they think I'm somehow answerable to them, or their continuous posting of bullshit is somehow going to get me to stop.

I don't.  I disagree with what you did, and I don t give a fuck what you have to say about it.

Danny says I enable you.  I have almost nothing to do with you. You are fully autonomous.  You do not need my enabling.

Paul St. John

[Paul St. John]

I went off on a tangent there, but I would say that in her situation, there might be some who would be better off running away. I am basing this on my memories and experiences from when I was a child. Today I would never consider giving that as advice though. (hence, my being conflicted)

Terrible advice and I don't believe it for a minute, this talk is for your buddies. Get real Paul.

Danny B., or Danny A, or Danny C., or whichever of the other two Danny's.

I am not writing anything for my "buddies".  That's not what I do.  You don't know me, and you d prefer to think that it is impossible for anyone to have integrity.

For the record, most of the posters here, I hardly even know.  Your illusion about this whole buddy-group, comes from your desire to find inclusion.  Here's a hint, danny.. It doesn t exist, so you don t have to worry about being excluded anymore.

That shit was the worst fucking experience of my life.  I went through hell in that place.  For some people, running away may be better.. That s all I said.

Paul

[Whooter]

Honestly, I think it is better off in the hands of the parents then a third party. To me, that is like a double wrong.

Also, any program that operates with integrity should themselves turn down a child who does not require treatment. You would expect it of a contractor, or a mechanic, or a surgeon, so why not a program?

We know that programs will turn kids away who will not benefit from their model or who would be better off someplace else.  But there are still those programs out there who will take any kid to fill an extra bed.
If third party sign-off were required this would eliminate the placement of kids who don’t need to be placed.

No, you wouldn t be. But I state again, that as long as I am alive, no one that I care about, will end up in a program. I know I am right. I know that you might not ever understand it, but I trust my heart and it works well for me.

I understand how you feel.  I have debated people on both sides of the abortion issue and both feel in their hearts they are right.  But I have seen kids who benefit from programs and the studies which are emerging support that the majority of kids are helped.  Your experience doesn’t represent all programs.

If I love someone I have the right to help them, and there is no logic or debate that matters beyond that statement, because if the situation were to present itself, all your logic would mean nothing, as I carry out exactly what I say, without any of the doomsday occurrences that those who might want to discourage me, might put forth.

I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated.  Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry.  There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother.  They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have.  Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others.  But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.

As an aside:  I think you do enable PODK.  You think more alike than you know or maybe are willing to admit.

...

[Paul St. John]

I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.

You are comparing me to this?

[Whooter]

I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.

You are comparing me to this?

You have admitted that you have closed the door on getting someone you loved the help they needed if it meant residential treatment.


...

[DannyB II]

"Paul St. John" wrote:
This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.
The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.

Paul, this is a hell of a accusation, please back it up. Yes we have slammed folks pretty hard for their crap here but they deserved it. We have never threatened any one with violence or harassment intentionally or un-intentionally.
Ever!!!!!!!!!!!
Though "you" have and then came to your senses.  
Now, don't run to fast. If you were to find posts from Danny Bennison, you will see I was threatened repetitively, had my house shown, my picture shown, excused of being other people, called at all hours of the night, received threatening letters and on and on.
We were on the Elan Alum site prior to coming here and if Wayne got honest along with others you would know we left there to come here because of the abuse.
Paul, we had just had enough of the wholesale condemnation because are views are different. We were pounded every time we posted. Just ask Mark.
 

Let's check it out:
Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)

Che, DJ, Eliscu, Inculcated, Sekto, Ginger, Anne, Pile, Niles, and yourself have all insinuated or out and out threatened me. Go back and look, you will find the posts.
Otherwise Paul, please don't put yourself in the company of Inculcate, Sekto, Froderik, Psy, Samara, Oz Girl, Awake, Ursus, JOM, The Reporter, Che and Ginger because you don't even come close.

Yes we have some who we have had differences with and it came to some very unkind words and insinuated threats but these are stand up people with a quality of honesty that is unshakable.

Now, DJ, Eliscu, Anne, Niles, Piles and yourself form your own crew of deviates. You will stoop to any level to make a point as you are doing here.

"You offered me the time to realize my threats", Paul your silly boy who plays with very serious men. You had your opportunity and "You" chose not to realize it. Man to Man we both know that, so stop playing up to the crowd.  

Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program.  The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.
Paul St. John

Paul where are you right now, are you here on fornits. Everybody you have mentioned is out of this conversation waiting for Danny, Suck-It and Whooter to go away, as Ginger quoted once, "there doing the Che" if they ignore us we will go away. NNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnoooooot. We are not going anywhere so I hope y'all have a nice long vacation. Dual opinions can happen here in a civilized manner.

Now your crew on the other hand continues to attack, read how DJ talks to Whooter , Pile talks to Suck IT and you talk to me.
Not good Paul.
 
Before this freeze out they were attacking left and right in there low level sarcastic demeaning way, which you (Paul) find to be perfectly peaceful and just so intelligent.
 
Paul you really don't read anything before you open your mouth do you. (Now that would be considered a un-peaceful comment to you). Problem is, it is the truth. You are very ignorant to what happens here.

[Paul St. John]

I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.

You are comparing me to this?

You have admitted that you have closed the door on getting someone you loved the help they needed if it meant residential treatment.


...

Are you really this dense or are you trying to manipulate me?

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Just to hit the reset button here, the "help" Whooter is talking about is highly dis-recommended by the government (including the GAO and FTC), consists of many months, sometimes years, of complete isolation from the outside world, and involves abusive practices such as sexualized roleplay, forced marches, sleep deprivation, occasional physical abuse when they can get away with it, intentionally turning parents against their own children, and various group activities involving teenage girls forced to divulge or make up experiences to total strangers, under threat of even more punishment. This is the "therapy" that's referred to on this board. Many of these places have been closed by local government authorities and are illegal in some jurisdictions, so they move to places such as Utah where regulation is nonexistent.

I'm sorry, was that too much reality for this thread?

Carry on.

[Paul St. John]

"Paul St. John" wrote:
This is when the anger and threats begin, which can come in many forms.
The only threats I here around here are from Danny, and he is of your point of view.

Paul, this is a hell of a accusation, please back it up. Yes we have slammed folks pretty hard for their crap here but they deserved it. We have never threatened any one with violence or harassment intentionally or un-intentionally.
Ever!!!!!!!!!!!
Though "you" have and then came to your senses.  
Now, don't run to fast. If you were to find posts from Danny Bennison, you will see I was threatened repetitively, had my house shown, my picture shown, excused of being other people, called at all hours of the night, received threatening letters and on and on.
We were on the Elan Alum site prior to coming here and if Wayne got honest along with others you would know we left there to come here because of the abuse.
Paul, we had just had enough of the wholesale condemnation because are views are different. We were pounded every time we posted. Just ask Mark.
 

Let's check it out:
Ursus, Che Gookin, DJ, Froderik, Eliscu, the Reporter, JOM, Samara, Inculcated, SEKTO, Oz Girl, Anne Bonney, Psy, Ginger, Pile, Nihilanthic, Awake, myself ( other then the time I offered Danny the opportunity to realize his threats)

Che, DJ, Eliscu, Inculcated, Sekto, Ginger, Anne, Pile, Niles, and yourself have all insinuated or out and out threatened me. Go back and look, you will find the posts.
Otherwise Paul, please don't put yourself in the company of Inculcate, Sekto, Froderik, Psy, Samara, Oz Girl, Awake, Ursus, JOM, The Reporter, Che and Ginger because you don't even come close.

Yes we have some who we have had differences with and it came to some very unkind words and insinuated threats but these are stand up people with a quality of honesty that is unshakable.

Now, DJ, Eliscu, Anne, Niles, Piles and yourself form your own crew of deviates. You will stoop to any level to make a point as you are doing here.


You are not hurting me Danny.  I know who I am.. I also know who you are.



"You offered me the time to realize my threats", Paul your silly boy who plays with very serious men. You had your opportunity and "You" chose not to realize it. Man to Man we both know that, so stop playing up to the crowd

.  
I shoulda taped the phone conversation.. You pussy fuck.

Show me where any of these people threatened anybody for being pro-program.  The truth is that the majority of the people here are very peaceful, and too intelligent to have the need to resort to violence.
Paul St. John

====================================Paul where are you right now, are you here on fornits. Everybody you have mentioned is out of this conversation waiting for Danny, Suck-It and Whooter to go away, as Ginger quoted once, "there doing the Che" if they ignore us we will go away. NNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnoooooot. We are not going anywhere so I hope y'all have a nice long vacation. Dual opinions can happen here in a civilized manner.

Now your crew on the other hand continues to attack, read how DJ talks to Whooter , Pile talks to Suck IT and you talk to me.
Not good Paul.===========================

Are you trying to make some kind of point here?  Perhaps, you can clarify it for slow people like me.

 
Before this freeze out they were attacking left and right in there low level sarcastic demeaning way, which you (Paul) find to be perfectly peaceful and just so intelligent.
 
Paul you really don't read anything before you open your mouth do you. (Now that would be considered a un-peaceful comment to you). Problem is, it is the truth. You are very ignorant to what happens here.

[Whooter]

I don’t expect to ever change your mind, it is closed, as you have stated. Its not my intent so you don’t need to worry. There are people willing to shoot a doctor in the back of the head rather than allow someone they love have an abortion even if it means having a baby would kill the mother. They don’t care about studies or facts, they have made up their minds like you have. Your opinions are okay as long as they don’t harm others. But if you prevented someone you love from getting the help they need and they died or got worse than it may be too late to step back and look at things rationally instead of just from your personal experiences.

You are comparing me to this?

You have admitted that you have closed the door on getting someone you loved the help they needed if it meant residential treatment.


...

Are you really this dense or are you trying to manipulate me?

Look, Paul,I dont manipulate.  Its a discussion.  If you really feel that "all" residential treatment programs harm "all" the kids and not one child has ever benefited form their stay there then you can join the posters here like Anne Bonney, DJ, Dead kids,Niles etc..  I think you know you are on the fringe if you truly believe this in light of the studies that have been done and lack of evidence that tens of thousands of kids are harmed each year and no one ever reports it.



...

[Paul St. John]

Whooter, if you cannot trust yourself to take care of your own, that s your problem bro.

The fact that I have confidence in myself and those that I care about does not put me anywhere near the level of a pro-life doctor killer.

Also, you betray, in your response that you were being manipulative because were asking me to answer a question based on premises that I have not accepted.

( and in your response, you acknowledge it)

Paul