Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school

[Whooter]

Thanks Ursus, they are a little more balanced than the ones from Maia who is getting paid for her opinion.  (People on fornits dislike that).  I think the discussions gains a little bit more credibility this way.



...

[Ursus]

And some more ...

   
Nancy21212 wrote: 3/10/2010 6:52 PM EST

PART ONE: The Judge Rotenberg Center likes to make the point that there are no other options for people with severe, dangerous behaviors, however not only are there people just like the people at the Judge Rotenberg Center who are being supported humanely and effectively all over the United States; there are people who were at the Judge Rotenberg Center who are doing wonderfully with positive behavior supports in community settings across the country. These are people who JRC warned would never make it outside of their center, people they said would need to be hooked to the shock devices for life, people who were moved in spite of the Judge Rotenberg Center's dire warnings that they would be violent and dangerous. As I said to Mr. Harmon in a lengthy conversation prior to his writing his column, logic tells us that the 193 people at JRC can't be the only people in the country with behaviors this severe. I'm sorry he didn't take me up on the contacts I provided him so he could learn how people with behaviors just as severe are supported successfully without resorting to painful methods.

The Judge Rotenberg Center would like visitors to believe that painful electric shocks are used only infrequently and only for the kinds of extreme behaviors Harmon lists in his article: eye gouging, head banging and the like – but a New York State report found students as young as nine years old subjected to sudden, painful, repeated electric shocks for such harmless behaviors as "refusing to follow staff directions", "failing to maintain a neat appearance", "stopping work for more than ten seconds", "getting out of seat". "interrupting others", "nagging", "swearing", "whispering" and "slouching in chair", and "moving conversation away from staff.." The Boston Globe itself reported on the testimony of former employees who spoke about a student who received as many as 350 shocks in one day, a figure the Globe reported was confirmed by the school. That Globe article reported a former employee to testify, “the shock is more painful than described by school officials. I got hit accidentally on my thumb and I had a tingling up to my elbow, on the inner part of my arm, I would say for four hours. I was saying I can't believe these kids can do this. My hand was shaking. I wanted to go home, that's how bad it was.”

The director of the Judge Rotenberg Center testified at a Massachusetts legislative hearing that one student received 5,300 electric shocks in one day. In his testimony, he stated that over a 24-hour period, this student, a teenager who weighed only 52 pounds, was strapped to a board and subjected to an average of one shock every 16 seconds. A 2007 New York Times article notes, "a former teacher from the school ...said he had seen children scream and writhe on the floor from the shock."

Nancy21212 wrote: 3/10/2010 6:52 PM EST

PART TWO: The Times article also speaks to how painful the shocks are, "Technically, the lowest shock given by Rotenberg is roughly twice what pain researchers have said is tolerable for most humans, said James Eason, a professor of biomedical engineering at Washington and Lee University". And, even more frightening, all of the statements above were made before JRC came out with its newest shock device – the GED-4 which, according to a 2006 Boston Globe article, "deliver(s) 45 milliampere shocks -- 4 1/2 times stronger than the standard shocks" According to that article, "Greg Miller, a former teacher's assistant for more than three years, said one boy with autism was shocked by the higher-powered device so often that he had 'burn scabs all over his torso, legs, and arms,' forcing nurses to remove the electrodes for weeks so that his skin could heal"

Just a bee sting, used only occasionally in the most extreme circumstances? Harmon may have bought this but the facts don't support it.

Harmon seems to think that these practices are OK because they are approved by parents and a probate judge. Let's be clear that the Judge Rotenberg Center is a lucrative business. On their 2008 IRS forms (the most recently ones publicly available) JRC reported $390,301 in compensation for their Director. The Center was so beholding to the Judge who approved all the aversive procedures for their students that when he died, they re-named their facility in his honor. The facility used to be called the Behavior Research Institute but advocates would ask, "where's the research?" Yes, the courts approve these practices, but one wonders how much they know about humane, effective alternatives.

And, in terms of parents approving the electric shock? Just ask parents like Evelyn Nicholson. In 2006, The Boston Globe reported that, "Evelyn Nicholson initially approved the shocks, but said she changed her mind as her son became more desperate, complaining that the shocks knocked him to the floor. Previously, she said, 'I was advised that the shock . . . felt like a small pinch,' and that the devices were rarely used." Nicholson, like numbers of parents, when they found out what was being done to their sons and daughters, told JRC that they did not have their permission to use painful procedures on their kids and were told that if permission for the shock was not given they could come and take their son or daughter home. Parents giving permission? Not with any element of the free will that the term 'permission' usually implies.

Harmon speaks of other schools – schools he was told kids like these might be at if not for the Judge Rotenberg Center; schools where these kinds of students would instead be subjected to mechanical restraints. That might make a reader think that the Judge Rotenberg Center doesn't use these restrictive techniques.

Nancy21212 wrote: 3/10/2010 6:53 PM EST

PART THREE: The New York State investigational report on JRC states, "With mechanical movement limitation the student is strapped into/onto some form of physical apparatus. For example, a four-point platform board designed specifically for this purpose; or a helmet with thick padding and narrow facial grid that reduces sensory stimuli to the ears and eyes. Another form of mechanical restraint occurs when the student is in a five-point restraint in a chair. Students may be restrained for extensive periods of time (e.g., hours or intermittently for days) when restraint is used as a punishing consequence. Many students are required to carry their own "restraint bag" in which the restraint straps are contained." The same report notes, "Some of these students were observed to be fully restrained in restraint chairs and wearing movement limiting helmets. One student left the school building in full restraint (hands and feet restrained with Velcro straps in a restraint chair), clearly agitated and upset, and returned the following morning carried to the conference room fully restrained in what appeared to be the same chair."

When I spoke to Mr. Harmon he seemed particularly swayed by the video called "Before and After" that almost every visitor sees. A 2007 Mother Jones article described the "before" footage shot in 1977, "An 11-year-old girl named Caroline arrives at the school strapped down onto a stretcher, her head encased in a helmet. In the next shot, free from restraints, she crouches down and tries to smash her helmeted head against the floor." The Mother Jones reporter goes on to say, "Considering how compelling the "After" footage is, I am surprised to learn that five of the six children featured in it are still here. 'This is Caroline,' one of my escorts says an hour or two later as we walk down a corridor. Without an introduction, I would not have known. Caroline, 39, slumps forward in a wheelchair, her fists balled up, head covered by a red helmet. 'Blow me a kiss, Caroline,' Israel says. She doesn't respond."

And here we have perhaps the most important point that Mr. Harmon missed. If these methods worked – if their inhumanity was justified by their success, you wouldn't have students still there after 33 years. You wouldn't need to continually develop devices that deliver a stronger and stronger shock or methods to spread the electrodes so the electrical current passes through more flesh for the purpose of assuring greater and greater amounts of pain. Positive behavioral approaches are proven to have more staying power; they give people tools that they can use for life and they help them to change dangerous behaviors in ways that value, enhance, and include people rather than through the use of methods that are coercive, controlling, and inhumane.

Nancy21212 wrote: 3/10/2010 6:55 PM EST

FINAL PART: While the "after" portion of the tape Mr. Harmon watched might have seemed compelling, did he ask why, if these methods worked, people are still there 33 years later, still hooked up to the devices that are touted as being so effective?

I'm sorry Harmon was taken in, as so many casual visitors before him have been. It's easy to spend a few hours and accept what you're being told at face value. It's easy when you're under deadline to buy into the belief that no alternatives exist. Mr. Harmon said he feels that the concerns of the 31 disability organizations that signed the letter that motivated the Department of Justice investigation seem "too pat." I hope it is clear that these organizations did not take lightly the decision to sign this letter. These groups represent the major, mainstream developmental disability organizations in the country including the American Association on Intellectual and Developmental Disabilities, The Arc of the United States, Easter Seals, United Cerebral Palsy and 27 others which together represent the most respected researchers in the country.

No one should be deluded into thinking that Mr. Harmon's visit to the Judge Rotenberg Center told the whole story. The Judge Rotenberg Center has a business to run; they are not going to tell a reporter that humane options exist, but the several hundred thousand professionals and advocates represented by the 31 disability organizations that called for the Department of Justice investigation, know full well that they do. And because they do, this treatment of our most vulnerable citizens should not be tolerated by a society that believes in the ethical treatment of all people.


Nancy Weiss
March, 2010

[Whooter]

Nancy Weiss:
No one should be deluded into thinking that Mr. Harmon's visit to the Judge Rotenberg Center told the whole story. The Judge Rotenberg Center has a business to run; they are not going to tell a reporter that humane options exist, but the several hundred thousand professionals and advocates represented by the 31 disability organizations that called for the Department of Justice investigation, know full well that they do. And because they do, this treatment of our most vulnerable citizens should not be tolerated by a society that believes in the ethical treatment of all people.

Well it is a business and should be open to any investigation if they stand behind what they do.  I think the Department of Justice should complete an investigation and then decide.  But I know too well that many people here on fornits make up their mind and it doesn’t matter what the outcome of the investigation is they will still be against kids getting help.

It’s a catch 22… parents are responsible for the kids until a certain age and if they ignore the fact that their kids need help then they could be liable and go to jail.   If they decide to get their kids help then there are fringe groups like fornits which say the kids should be able to decide and be able to refuse help.  But if the kids hurt someone or themselves then parents get sued…. Go figure.

Its like the no spank people who want you to raise “free range kids” but as soon as they grow up and start acting up then nospank people are nowhere to be found and then if they need the help of a program they say it’s due to bad parenting lol.



...

[Anne Bonney]

Well it is a business and should be open to any investigation if they stand behind what they do.  I think the Department of Justice should complete an investigation and then decide.  But I know too well that many people here on fornits make up their mind and it doesn’t matter what the outcome of the investigation is they will still be against kids getting help.

I guess that's where I fundamentally disagree with not only  you, but many others in that I don't think that any health care should be a "business", or at least one that depends on profit.  And yes, I can accept that some of my views on "drug treatment" may not conform to what unfortunately has become mainstream (forced or coerced....it doesn't work anyway and is soooo likely to be abused and do damage while trying), but this.......this is simply horrifying.  I think that's why I'm able to dismiss much of what you say.  You've consistently present defenses for things that are simply indefensible.  You, wayyy back, even said that what happened to kids in Straight was wrong and abusive, yet you're completely comfortable in dismissing things we (specifically Straight survivors) say or report as either anecdotal and (as long as it's not your anecdote) is dismissable in its entirety.  You're completely comfortable in accepting these same practices that you have previously condemned as the "extreme examples" and "things we should learn from" as support for the end that justifies the means (with no proof of the "end"..no proof of efficacy allthwhile demanding from us proof of INefficacy...he still doesn't understand the concept of the onus of the burden of proof being on the one proclaiming success, not the negative).

To most, the practices that this place is using are barbaric.  There is no excuse for what these people have done to these kids.  Every time I think it can't get any worse, something new and repulsive comes along and somewhere, someone will argue for it.  Which, again, brings us back to you and brings to mind the Lewis quote....

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - Copy to Clipboard
  --  C.S. Lewis

[DannyB II]

Well it is a business and should be open to any investigation if they stand behind what they do.  I think the Department of Justice should complete an investigation and then decide.  But I know too well that many people here on fornits make up their mind and it doesn’t matter what the outcome of the investigation is they will still be against kids getting help.

I guess that's where I fundamentally disagree with not only  you, but many others in that I don't think that any health care should be a "business", or at least one that depends on profit.  And yes, I can accept that some of my views on "drug treatment" may not conform to what unfortunately has become mainstream (forced or coerced....it doesn't work anyway and is soooo likely to be abused and do damage while trying), but this.......this is simply horrifying.  I think that's why I'm able to dismiss much of what you say.  You've consistently present defenses for things that are simply indefensible.  You, wayyy back, even said that what happened to kids in Straight was wrong and abusive, yet you're completely comfortable in dismissing things we (specifically Straight survivors) say or report as either anecdotal and (as long as it's not your anecdote) is dismissable in its entirety.  You're completely comfortable in accepting these same practices that you have previously condemned as the "extreme examples" and "things we should learn from" as support for the end that justifies the means (with no proof of the "end"..no proof of efficacy allthwhile demanding from us proof of INefficacy...he still doesn't understand the concept of the onus of the burden of proof being on the one proclaiming success, not the negative).

To most, the practices that this place is using are barbaric.  There is no excuse for what these people have done to these kids.  Every time I think it can't get any worse, something new and repulsive comes along and somewhere, someone will argue for it.  Which, again, brings us back to you and brings to mind the Lewis quote....

"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - Copy to Clipboard
  --  C.S. Lewis

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Like I've always said when the messenger arrives it does not matter "who" if the message is true. This is a true message from someone who has been there and witnessed thereafter.
Whooter you have to at some point, see the horrific practices they are performing. It reminds me a lot of Arthur the lobotomy "king" who ran around the country years back, now they have condensed it in one place. Scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Danny

[Whooter]

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Like I've always said when the messenger arrives it does not matter "who" if the message is true. This is a true message from someone who has been there and witnessed thereafter.
Whooter you have to at some point, see the horrific practices they are performing. It reminds me a lot of Arthur the lobotomy "king" who ran around the country years back, now they have condensed it in one place. Scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Danny

If you paint a bad picture for the public to believe then yes it would seem scary and inhumane.  My sister is terrified of shocks and feels the same way.  Myself they are not so much a big deal.  I got shocked all the time working on cars and such growing up.

I just see a child being helped.

Consider for a moment a child being held down and then restrained to a table and given high levels of radiation which is painful and frightening to the point of having to sedate the child.  Then they lace a chemotherapy cocktail with sugar to trick the childs defense system into thinking it is good for the child so the little girl drinks it happily with a smile.  Then shortly after her hair starts falling out we see this child becoming sad and vomiting.  She is extremely ill and the cocktail is slowly killing all her healthy cells in her body.  Her commonsense tells her not to drink the cocktail but she continues to do so because she trusts her parents and the doctor.  She pleads with her parents to take her home and not subject her to this any more.  The radiation was so strong that it actually triggered another cancer in her body.  But her parents and doctor insist on continuing this path.

Does this sound humane to you?  Why would they randomly take a child into a hospital and treat them this way?  How could loving parents sit idle and watch and even become involved in this destruction and torture of their own child?  Were these parents brainwashed?  They must have felt some compassion for their child at some point in the little girls life, what changed?



...

[Anti-Troll]

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Like I've always said when the messenger arrives it does not matter "who" if the message is true. This is a true message from someone who has been there and witnessed thereafter.
Whooter you have to at some point, see the horrific practices they are performing. It reminds me a lot of Arthur the lobotomy "king" who ran around the country years back, now they have condensed it in one place. Scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Danny

If you paint a bad picture for the public to believe then yes it would seem scary and inhumane.  My sister is terrified of shocks and feels the same way.  Myself they are not so much a big deal.  I got shocked all the time working on cars and such growing up.

I just see a child being helped.

Consider for a moment a child being held down and then restrained to a table and given high levels of radiation which is painful and frightening to the point of having to sedate the child.  Then they lace a chemotherapy cocktail with sugar to trick the childs defense system into thinking it is good for the child so the little girl drinks it happily with a smile.  Then shortly after her hair starts falling out we see this child becoming sad and vomiting.  She is extremely ill and the cocktail is slowly killing all her healthy cells in her body.  Her commonsense tells her not to drink the cocktail but she continues to do so because she trusts her parents and the doctor.  She pleads with her parents to take her home and not subject her to this any more.  The radiation was so strong that it actually triggered another cancer in her body.  But her parents and doctor insist on continuing this path.

Does this sound humane to you?  Why would they randomly take a child into a hospital and treat them this way?  How could loving parents sit idle and watch and even become involved in this destruction and torture of their own child?  Were these parents brainwashed?  They must have felt some compassion for their child at some point in the little girls life, what changed?



...

:notworthy: :trophy:
today's twisted analogy award goes to Whooter

[DannyB II]

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

Like I've always said when the messenger arrives it does not matter "who" if the message is true. This is a true message from someone who has been there and witnessed thereafter.
Whooter you have to at some point, see the horrific practices they are performing. It reminds me a lot of Arthur the lobotomy "king" who ran around the country years back, now they have condensed it in one place. Scary!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Danny

If you paint a bad picture for the public to believe then yes it would seem scary and inhumane.  My sister is terrified of shocks and feels the same way.  Myself they are not so much a big deal.  I got shocked all the time working on cars and such growing up.

I just see a child being helped.

Consider for a moment a child being held down and then restrained to a table and given high levels of radiation which is painful and frightening to the point of having to sedate the child.  Then they lace a chemotherapy cocktail with sugar to trick the childs defense system into thinking it is good for the child so the little girl drinks it happily with a smile.  Then shortly after her hair starts falling out we see this child becoming sad and vomiting.  She is extremely ill and the cocktail is slowly killing all her healthy cells in her body.  Her commonsense tells her not to drink the cocktail but she continues to do so because she trusts her parents and the doctor.  She pleads with her parents to take her home and not subject her to this any more.  The radiation was so strong that it actually triggered another cancer in her body.  But her parents and doctor insist on continuing this path.

Does this sound humane to you?  Why would they randomly take a child into a hospital and treat them this way?  How could loving parents sit idle and watch and even become involved in this destruction and torture of their own child?  Were these parents brainwashed?  They must have felt some compassion for their child at some point in the little girls life, what changed?



...

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

I understand there are children with conditions that you wonder why would god even bring them into this world. I have seen them, lived with them and were medicated with them at one time in my life,  Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia, Autism, psychotic people who had raped, molested, killed, violence so inhuman I still have scars. I don't profess to be educated in any of this except through life experience. I chose to let it go a long time ago, it was driving me crazy.
I found this site and I''ll tell you the nightmares have returned and my level of hyper-tension is off the charts at times but I am not going anywhere this time, I will see this through.
Whooter what we are talking about here are abuses not humane treatment. Not all the staff are professional compassionate caregivers, for so many reasons. Overworked, uneducated, lack of patience, lack of empathy, mental and emotional problems themselves and the biggest underpaid and all the problems that brings. Big Pharma and Ins. Corps using the entity as a "proving ground" for medication and practices of treatment, please don't say this doesn't happen.
Whooter, I am talking about abuse. Not treatment that is unbearable to watch like most operations which entail cutting ones body open, yes like a autopsy.....no I am talking about abuse, when someone loses sight of there objective to help another human and because of various reasons chooses to harm them. Whether they or others know it.

Danny

[Whooter]

 :shamrock:  :shamrock:

I understand there are children with conditions that you wonder why would god even bring them into this world. I have seen them, lived with them and were medicated with them at one time in my life,  Bi-Polar, Schizophrenia, Autism, psychotic people who had raped, molested, killed, violence so inhuman I still have scars. I don't profess to be educated in any of this except through life experience. I chose to let it go a long time ago, it was driving me crazy.
I found this site and I''ll tell you the nightmares have returned and my level of hyper-tension is off the charts at times but I am not going anywhere this time, I will see this through.
Whooter what we are talking about here are abuses not humane treatment. Not all the staff are professional compassionate caregivers, for so many reasons. Overworked, uneducated, lack of patience, lack of empathy, mental and emotional problems themselves and the biggest underpaid and all the problems that brings. Big Pharma and Ins. Corps using the entity as a "proving ground" for medication and practices of treatment, please don't say this doesn't happen.
Whooter, I am talking about abuse. Not treatment that is unbearable to watch like most operations which entail cutting ones body open, yes like a autopsy.....no I am not talking about abuse, when someone loses sight of there objective to help another human and because of various reasons chooses to harm them. Whether they or others know it.

Danny

I am right with you, Danny, on this.  If one of these people ever harmed a child and shocked them for fun then I would be the first one to drag the guy out into the street and taser him until he drooled and started speaking Latin.

But I don't I agree with you that people here are concerned solely about the abuses.  They are against the therapy itself, not just the people performing it.  That’s why I made the analogy I did because many here on fornits don’t consider the whole picture when forming an opinion rather they focus on a snap shot in time… like a child being strapped down and given Chemo and radiation and then watching their hair fall out and vomit everywhere.  This would infuriate them if they didn’t know that the chemo-therapy will eventually help the child.  They don’t consider the bigger picture. All they see is a child being shocked… nothing else.

At this point they take it to another level and determine that the people giving the shock therapy are also evil lol.  They must be evil if the therapy is evil… do you see what I mean?  So all these caring people are considered monsters by some fringe groups who keep themselves isolated from information which would allow them to make a more informed opinion.

I am not totally sold on this shock treatment but I am able to see a larger picture than most.  I know that the people who work there care for these kids and I know that these kids have an extremely low quality of life as they enter this place and their parents have given up their own lives practically to helping their children attain more than they have today.  There is no evil there that I can see.



...

[Anne Bonney]

I am right with you, Danny, on this.  If one of these people ever harmed a child and shocked them for fun then I would be the first one to drag the guy out into the street and taser him until he drooled and started speaking Latin.

Ooooo, such big talk from such a small man.

 

They are against the therapy itself, not just the people performing it.

 

Wrong, now stop putting words in other peoples mouths.  You do it constantly and it's extremely disingenuous.  We're against unproven, quack "therapy" provided by pseudo-counselors.  We're against forced "therapy" because you can't really have any meaningful help or therapy without trust and forced therapy breeds complete distrust.

That’s why I made the analogy I did because many here on fornits don’t consider the whole picture when forming an opinion rather they focus on a snap shot in time… like a child being strapped down and given Chemo and radiation and then watching their hair fall out and vomit everywhere.  This would infuriate them if they didn’t know that the chemo-therapy will eventually help the child.  They don’t consider the bigger picture. All they see is a child being shocked… nothing else.

Big difference.  The treatment that the cancer afflicted child receives is not in any way depended on their behavior, which would be a subjective call at best.  

At this point they take it to another level and determine that the people giving the shock therapy are also evil lol.  They must be evil if the therapy is evil… do you see what I mean?  So all these caring people are considered monsters by some fringe groups who keep themselves isolated from information which would allow them to make a more informed opinion.

When the kids are wearing shock packs 24 hours a day, 7 days a week and it's used as behavior or thought control it IS evil.  

I am not totally sold on this shock treatment but I am able to see a larger picture than most.  I know that the people who work there care for these kids

How do you know this??

and I know that these kids have an extremely low quality of life as they enter this place and their parents have given up their own lives practically to helping their children attain more than they have today.  There is no evil there that I can see.

Why am I not surprised.

[Whooter]

Big difference. The treatment that the cancer afflicted child receives is not in any way depended on their behavior, which would be a subjective call at best.

?  Hmmm.. still therapy whether their behavior is good or not.. still forced... shouldn't the child have a say whether or not she needs therapy?

Wrong, now stop putting words in other peoples mouths. You do it constantly and it's extremely disingenuous. We're against unproven, quack "therapy" provided by pseudo-counselors. We're against forced "therapy" because you can't really have any meaningful help or therapy without trust and forced therapy breeds complete distrust.

That’s my point and the major difference between us on this.  You would allow a little girl to walk away from chemotherapy because she decided against it.  You would just allow this poor girl to die.

“Doctor my 6 year old daughter doesn’t want Chemotherapy and we don’t believe in forced therapy so we have to go along with her wishes.  If she doesn’t trust the therapy then it will not work.”

Shows me where there are pseudo-counselors or that it is quack therapy.  If one of the people who administered the Chemotherapy made the little girl drink more than she needed because he wasn’t trained properly would you want to discontinue this therapy and call them pseudo-counselors or pseudo therapy admins.  Don’t you see that you don’t think anything through and are unable to see how this is helping the children in the end.  You are like a little sheep that follows all the others because someone said it is evil.

Why not think for yourself.  Why would you believe that these people wake up in the morning intent on hurting little kids and getting enjoyment from it?  Why would these parents enjoy watching their own children getting abused and shocked?  What would be the purpose?  Are you going to fall back on the whole brainwashing theory?  Why would all these doctors spend their entire lives trying to torture children just for the fun of it?  Why would parents not pull their kids out if it were ineffective?   Why would other parents lie to them about their children improving?  Why would this place still be open after being under a spot light for so long?

Backpacks that shock you vs. Chemotherapy… hmmmm which is worse?  Chemotherapy may not even be effective, there is a chance that it will make you worse or shorten your life..... hmmmm... but backpacks that shock you are so inhumane, lets not learn any more about it, lets close our minds and pick up some picket signs and join the crowd.



...



...

[Whooter]

Article Link

Some more dialog on the subject that I found:

WHEN recent news stories detailed how two students were inappropriately given skin shocks at the Judge Rotenberg Education Center in Canton, my husband and I cringed in anticipation of the well-meaning question, "Do you think your son is OK at that place?"

Against the backdrop of headlines and news accounts that conjure up the mistaken images of "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest" and electroconvulsive therapy, this is difficult to explain to people who cannot understand how even a mild skin shock therapy is more humane than what many of these kids are subjected to in psychiatric hospitals and other specialized schools.

.....the story of hundreds of families who've found their way to the center after painful journeys bouncing from psychiatric wards to specialized schools and even protective custody (jail) with their children, who may be severely disabled, self-abusive, or physically aggressive. Their obvious suffering, and the suffering of their parents, is unimaginable.
[/color]
Many people say there are better options:
But when these "better options" don't work, where is the outrage about the years of noneffective treatment given those children who are so self-abusive that they have actually detached their own retinas from pounding their fists into their eyes, or those whose heads are misshapen from banging them repeatedly against walls and floors?

Where is the public outrage over how many children and young adults in Massachusetts spend their days in prolonged restraint or are so disabled from excessive psychotropic drugs they can barely stay awake?

It has been demonstrated that skin shock therapy, added to a positive reward program, breaks the cycle of aggressive and self-abusive behavior. The students then begin to participate in academics, receive vocational training, live in community group homes, and are able to be part of their family again.
Unless and until a more effective therapy becomes available, skin shock therapy has proven to be the most effective alternative to physical and chemical restraints that have left so many of these children imprisoned in their own world. It is the least restrictive and most effective therapy for this small group of very difficult individuals, such as our son, and must continue to be an option.



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[Anne Bonney]

That’s my point and the major difference between us on this.  You would allow a little girl to walk away from chemotherapy because she decided against it.  You would just allow this poor girl to die.  “Doctor my 6 year old daughter doesn’t want Chemotherapy and we don’t believe in forced therapy so we have to go along with her wishes.  If she doesn’t trust the therapy then it will not work.”

Stop thinking you have any fucking clue how I think, feel or would act.  You have no idea.

Shows me where there are pseudo-counselors or that it is quack therapy.

It's never been proven to be effective.  The burden of proof lies with those claiming the positive, not the negative...although there is plenty of evidence of the negative out there.

 

You are like a little sheep that follows all the others because someone said it is evil.

You're desperately trying to justify what you've done to your children.

Why not think for yourself.  Why would you believe that these people wake up in the morning intent on hurting little kids and getting enjoyment from it?  Why would these parents enjoy watching their own children getting abused and shocked?  What would be the purpose?  Are you going to fall back on the whole brainwashing theory?  Why would all these doctors spend their entire lives trying to torture children just for the fun of it?  Why would parents not pull their kids out if it were ineffective?   Why would other parents lie to them about their children improving?  Why would this place still be open after being under a spot light for so long?

For the same reasons that places like Willowbrook were allowed to exist.  

Backpacks that shock you vs. Chemotherapy… hmmmm which is worse?  Chemotherapy may not even be effective, there is a chance that it will make you worse or shorten your life..... hmmmm... but backpacks that shock you are so inhumane, lets not learn any more about it, lets close our minds and pick up some picket signs and join the crowd.

Big difference.  Shocking kids into behaving is a long way from providing actual medicine to a child.  But you already knew that.

[Whooter]

Stop thinking you have any fucking clue how I think, feel or would act. You have no idea.

Your words not mine.  I am not doing the thinking for you, you are.

It's never been proven to be effective. The burden of proof lies with those claiming the positive, not the negative...although there is plenty of evidence of the negative out there.

Of course the burden of proof lies with those making the claim.  But you claimed they had pseudo-counselors and that it is quack therapy.  You never backed up this with an outside source.

 

For the same reasons that places like Willowbrook were allowed to exist.

Hmmmm, Willowbrook… so you never answered one question.  Just so you are aware.  You threw out a random name.  Whats up with that?  Are their people working there that worked at willowbrook?  Do they have the same policies?  Do you wake up wanting to hurt children?  Why are you different?  How can you tell the difference?  What is the connection to Willowbrook.  They are more connected to Harvard then Willowbrook from what I have read.

I asked: Why not think for yourself. Why would you believe that these people wake up in the morning intent on hurting little kids and getting enjoyment from it? Why would these parents enjoy watching their own children getting abused and shocked? What would be the purpose? Are you going to fall back on the whole brainwashing theory? Why would all these doctors spend their entire lives trying to torture children just for the fun of it? Why would parents not pull their kids out if it were ineffective? Why would other parents lie to them about their children improving? Why would this place still be open after being under a spot light for so long?

Big difference. Shocking kids into behaving is a long way from providing actual medicine to a child. But you already knew that.

Big difference, okay.  But how?  Why don’t you explain what you think?  How is it a long way?  If the backpacks were on only for 4 hours a day would that be better?  Why does 24/7 bother you vs a few hours?  Is it the pain that bothers you?  If you found out that the kids quality of life was improved would that be better?  If they lowered the amperage would that change your mind?  Do you have an opinion at all besides what others think,Anne?



...

[SUCK IT]

Let's give Manne Conney the benefit of the doubt, I'm sure he spends his weekends volunteering at facilities where retarded kids are held. Oh wait, nope! They spend their weekend here on fornits, arguing with random people to tell them about the beaches fun and sun and good life!!
Whooter is great because he doesn't troll with bullshit and lies, all Whooter does is post common sense, rational views and gets pounced on for it. Manne, Ursus and Psy (the trinity of cultists.. the only ones left who post) offer no solutions, they just find any example of what they deem evil, and they sit on their high horse being judgmental and then offering no real world solutions as alternatives. Home therapy! Peaches and Ice Cream! Just be nice to the kid!  When Manne, Ursus and Psy join forces and start a facility to take care of retarded or troubled kids maybe they can be judgmental then and not look like such hypocritical assholes.  Long live Whooter and his rational argument!