Author Topic: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school  (Read 6525 times)

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Offline RavingMad

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2010, 11:43:27 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
They're putting shock packs on the kids, 24 hours a day, and using them to keep the kids quiet.  It's sick, no matter how you fucking slice it.
OK I CAN SEE IF THEY ARE USING IT FOR FORM OF MIND CONTROLLING STUNT. BUT WHAT ABOUT THE ONES THAT DID HEAL MENTALLY FROM IT. ARE THERE CASES IT DID HELP? I THINK CUZ NOONE REALLY SEEN IT THEY DO NOT NO WHAT IT IS LIKE. YOU SAY SHOCK PADS TO SOMEONE LIKE ME AND I CAN VISSION IT BUT WHAT HAPPENS TO THE BODY WITH THE ELECTRICAL PART. IS IT PAINFUL? IS IT TRAUMA? I HEAR IN 60'S THEY USED IT MORE. DO THEY STILL USE IT AS MUCH. IF SO THEN WHY THE HELL ARE SOME OF YOU ON THIS WEBSITE WHEN YOU SHOULD BE DOWN A HOSPITAL TELLING OFF DOCTORS AND GETTING LAWYERS FOR THESE KIDS. CALL NEWPAPERS PEOLE GOT TO CARE.
AND WHO IS DOING ANYTHING TO STOP IT? YOU NEED TO TELL PEOPLE WHO DO NOT LIKE THIS HOW TO STOP IT.

AND WHY DO THEY WANT THESE KIDS QUITE WHAT ARE THEY HIDING?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #16 on: May 07, 2010, 11:48:02 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

No offense, Anne, but you should reading the full article.  The shock packs are not used on everyone and are not used to keep the kids quiet.  If you think backpacks are sick you should try sitting through an operation in a hospital where they cut people open.  I would go with the backpacks any day over being cut open.

As I've said before....you'll defend the indefensible.  This is a disgusting practice.

Why do you get so threatened when someone disagrees with you?  Its just a discussion.  If you have read my posts you would know that I have not formed an opinion on this therapy.  I am keeping an open mind and gathering information.  I am not defending this therapy, just looking at both points of view evenly.

The backpacks are not used on everyone and they dont shock kids to keep them quiet.  You dont understand the therapy at all Anne.  I dont think many people do.

Boston Globe Article

Yet somehow the arguments of the center’s detractors seem too pat. A recent five-hour visit to the school revealed nothing inhumane. Granted it’s a small window of time and the 214 students arrive each day from 32 scattered group homes. But the behaviors of many of the students, who range in age from 7 to 50, can be so unpredictable that it would be almost impossible to create a Potemkin village to dupe outsiders.

The Rotenberg Center is a highly structured behavior modification program that requires students to earn nearly every privilege - even a chance to relax with each other - by staying on task and not acting up. The road to its door is long. Parents, as a rule, don’t even consider placement until their children have been expelled from several other special needs schools.

On arrival, no one slaps electrodes on the students or fits them for the backpacks that contain the shock devices. Court-approved treatment plans require the school to use a positive rewards system, often for several months, before skin shocks can be administered via the transmitters that hang from the belts of some staffers. Supervisors in two video monitor rooms watch every classroom, group home, and common area through live camera feeds.
No shocks on this tour, it turns out, though there was one peck on the cheek exchanged by a student and a popular staffer.




...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #17 on: May 07, 2010, 11:49:13 AM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
Quote from: "Whooter"

No offense, Anne, but you should reading the full article.  The shock packs are not used on everyone and are not used to keep the kids quiet.  If you think backpacks are sick you should try sitting through an operation in a hospital where they cut people open.  I would go with the backpacks any day over being cut open.

As I've said before....you'll defend the indefensible.  This is a disgusting practice.

Why do you get so threatened when someone disagrees with you?  

Oh bite me asshole.  You don't threaten me....you sicken me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
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Offline RavingMad

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #18 on: May 07, 2010, 11:51:18 AM »
:jerry: MY QUESTIONS STILL GO UNANSWERED :jerry:
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #19 on: May 07, 2010, 11:56:57 AM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
You don't threaten me.....

Yes I do, Anne, or you would not be afraid to discuss topics openly.  You get threatened and tell people to bite you or call then an asshole or try to start a fight so that way you can avoid the topic or discussing the details of why you feel a certain way.
Its okay with me... just pointing it out and  just say'n.



...
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Offline RavingMad

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #20 on: May 07, 2010, 12:00:53 PM »
:jerry: ANNIE :jerry: WHOOTER :jerry: MY QUESTIONS STILL GO UNANSWERED. FUCKING STUPID I AM GOING TO GO PLAY RUNESCAPE OR WORLD OF WARCRAFT MORE GETS ACCOMPISHED THEN.
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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #21 on: May 07, 2010, 12:01:50 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"
You don't threaten me.....

Yes I do, Anne, or you would not be afraid to discuss topics openly.  You get threatened and tell people to bite you or call then an asshole or try to start a fight so that way you can avoid the topic or discussing the details of why you feel a certain way.
Its okay with me... just pointing it out and  just say'n.



...

Whatever you need to tell yourself dickhead.

It's because I've done the circle jerk with you for years now. I'm done.  You are, IMO, a sick fuck who gets off on this shit.  So.....have at it.  I'm perfectly capable and willing to discuss differing opinions with reasonable people.  You're not reasonable.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Whooter

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #22 on: May 07, 2010, 12:20:19 PM »
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Whatever you need to tell yourself dickhead.

It's because I've done the circle jerk with you for years now. I'm done.  You are, IMO, a sick fuck who gets off on this shit.  So.....have at it.  I'm perfectly capable and willing to discuss differing opinions with reasonable people.  You're not reasonable.

I have seen you with others too Anne.  If they disagree with you you get pissed and start calling them dickheads and assholes because you take a stand on an issue and you don’t even know why.  Maybe because it is popular here or you read a paragraph someplace that said it was evil.  But your posts show that you do not think for yourself your part of a lynch mob who carries a torch and doesn’t know or care what the issue is.
 
Someone shows you a picture of a kid being cut open and says the child is being tortured then you jump on the bandwagon and are ready to condemn and hang the person cutting this girl open.  You close your mind to everything else… is the girl being murdered?  If someone told you the girl was fine and was just having her appendix removed and the person was a doctor you would get angry and call him a dickhead or say “bite me” and conclude he must be spinning because that would shake your world and you would have to rethink your position or god forbid explain to someone why you feel the girl was being tortured.

Sorry Anne… you M.O. is running away and calling people names when people disagree with you.



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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #23 on: May 07, 2010, 12:24:53 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Quote from: "Anne Bonney"

Whatever you need to tell yourself dickhead.

It's because I've done the circle jerk with you for years now. I'm done.  You are, IMO, a sick fuck who gets off on this shit.  So.....have at it.  I'm perfectly capable and willing to discuss differing opinions with reasonable people.  You're not reasonable.

I have seen you with others too Anne.  If they disagree with you you get pissed and start calling them dickheads and assholes because you take a stand on an issue and you don’t even know why.  Maybe because it is popular here or you read a paragraph someplace that said it was evil.  But your posts show that you do not think for yourself your part of a lynch mob who carries a torch and doesn’t know or care what the issue is.
 
Someone shows you a picture of a kid being cut open and says the child is being tortured then you jump on the bandwagon and are ready to condemn and hang the person cutting this girl open.  You close your mind to everything else… is the girl being murdered?  If someone told you the girl was fine and was just having her appendix removed and the person was a doctor you would get angry and call him a dickhead or say “bite me” and conclude he must be spinning because that would shake your world and you would have to rethink your position or god forbid explain to someone why you feel the girl was being tortured.

Sorry Anne… you M.O. is running away and calling people names when people disagree with you.



...


Whatever you gotta tell yourself dickhead.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
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AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline RavingMad

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2010, 12:56:15 PM »
POINT WHOOTER :jerry: POINT ANNE :jerry: POINT WHOOTER :jerry: POINT ANNIE  :jerry:
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #25 on: May 07, 2010, 01:37:33 PM »
In light of the fact that people see value in this therapy and independent reviews and visits to the place found nothing to be inhumane I can see that placing further regulation would be a good direction at this point versus spending an effort to shut the place down.  



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Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #26 on: May 07, 2010, 01:42:38 PM »
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa

Offline Ursus

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #27 on: May 07, 2010, 01:59:59 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
...independent reviews and visits to the place found nothing to be inhumane...
<cough> . . . Source?

Independent reviews found plenty that was inhumane.

From what I've read, it has been the opinions of a select few parents — who are dependent on Matthew Israel for taking care of their "problem" — that have furnished "reviews" averring this method to be "life-saving."
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Offline Whooter

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #28 on: May 07, 2010, 02:09:54 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "Whooter"
...independent reviews and visits to the place found nothing to be inhumane...
<cough> . . . Source?

Independent reviews found plenty that was inhumane.

From what I've read, it has been the opinions of a select few parents — who are dependent on Matthew Israel for taking charge of their "problem" — that have furnished "reviews" averring this method to be "life-saving."


There were several walk thrus in the past several years which found no evidence of abuse.  I agree that the therapy is controversial but I dont see it as abusive or inhumane in light of what the quality of the childrens lives without the therapy and the reported quality of life the children have after therapy.  

"Cutting someone open with a knife is inhumane unless the person has a growing cancer inside"

Here is a more recent article:


Boston Globe Article



Yet somehow the arguments of the center’s detractors seem too pat. A recent five-hour visit to the school revealed nothing inhumane. Granted it’s a small window of time and the 214 students arrive each day from 32 scattered group homes. But the behaviors of many of the students, who range in age from 7 to 50, can be so unpredictable that it would be almost impossible to create a Potemkin village to dupe outsiders.

The Rotenberg Center is a highly structured behavior modification program that requires students to earn nearly every privilege - even a chance to relax with each other - by staying on task and not acting up. The road to its door is long. Parents, as a rule, don’t even consider placement until their children have been expelled from several other special needs schools.

On arrival, no one slaps electrodes on the students or fits them for the backpacks that contain the shock devices. Court-approved treatment plans require the school to use a positive rewards system, often for several months, before skin shocks can be administered via the transmitters that hang from the belts of some staffers. Supervisors in two video monitor rooms watch every classroom, group home, and common area through live camera feeds.
No shocks on this tour, it turns out, though there was one peck on the cheek exchanged by a student and a popular staffer.




...
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »

Offline Anne Bonney

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Re: Joyce's bills would curb shock treatments at Canton school
« Reply #29 on: May 07, 2010, 02:17:49 PM »
Quote from: "Whooter"
Here is a more recent article:


Boston Globe Article



Yet somehow the arguments of the center’s detractors seem too pat. A recent five-hour visit to the school revealed nothing inhumane. Granted it’s a small window of time and the 214 students arrive each day from 32 scattered group homes. But the behaviors of many of the students, who range in age from 7 to 50, can be so unpredictable that it would be almost impossible to create a Potemkin village to dupe outsiders.

The Rotenberg Center is a highly structured behavior modification program that requires students to earn nearly every privilege - even a chance to relax with each other - by staying on task and not acting up. The road to its door is long. Parents, as a rule, don’t even consider placement until their children have been expelled from several other special needs schools.

On arrival, no one slaps electrodes on the students or fits them for the backpacks that contain the shock devices. Court-approved treatment plans require the school to use a positive rewards system, often for several months, before skin shocks can be administered via the transmitters that hang from the belts of some staffers. Supervisors in two video monitor rooms watch every classroom, group home, and common area through live camera feeds.
No shocks on this tour, it turns out, though there was one peck on the cheek exchanged by a student and a popular staffer.




...


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/maia-szal ... 92351.html

Shocking Stupidity: Boston Globe Ignores Research to Support Dangerous Autism Program


The Boston Globe ran an op-ed today that perfectly characterizes a key failure of American journalism: that is, it reports on a medical question that can be answered by scientific research, but fails to even mention that such data exists or should exist.

The piece, headlined "Shocking Truths," claims that the arguments of critics of the Judge Rotenberg Center -- who oppose its inhumane electric skin-shock treatment of people with developmental disabilities -- are "too pat." The Department of Justice is currently investigating the school for human rights violations, after complaints from disability rights advocates.

Those concerns are groundless, author Lawrence Harmon argues. His proof? A five hour visit he made to the school in which he saw "nothing inhumane." Sure, he concedes, abuses have been found in the past -- but that's no reason to pay attention to the opposition of no fewer than 31 major disability advocacy groups.

As shallow as this reasoning is, it hides an even more profound failure of critical thinking. Harmon accepts at face value the claims of the school and of parents of students who support it that skin shock treatment "works" and is superior to what he calls "stupefying" doses of medication sometimes used by other programs.

But this is an empirical question -- and in decades of advocating a treatment its victims compare to "an attack by a swarm of wasps" -- the Rotenberg Center has yet to produce a single randomized controlled trial showing that its approach is effective -- let alone superior to others.

Rhetorically, Harmon asks, "Why do no practitioners other than Israel [Rotenberg's director] adopt this approach? Do they view skin shocks as cruel or do they fear the outcry of disability advocates and inevitable probes? Is skin shock, in some cases, a more humane treatment than heavy drugs and mechanical restraints?" He has a psychiatrist answer that he "doesn't know."

The disability rights groups know, however: they know that there is research from randomized controlled trials that supports other, more humane approaches. They know that there is none to support Rotenberg -- and they also know that research increasingly shows that sensory oversensitivity is a huge part of the autistic spectrum disorders often treated at the center. Given this, use of painful stimuli could be even more harmful to autistic kids than to others.

Using science to make medical decisions is not making a pat or black and white argument -- it is the same method that the FDA uses to clear drugs for marketing. If they are not first proven safe and effective, medications aren't allowed to be sold to the public. That standard is good enough for medications -- why shouldn't we use it for other treatments that can potentially do harm?

Why should we have lower standards for a skin-shock treatment used on our most vulnerable children? Parents' anecdotes and those of clinicians who profit from skin shock treatment aren't enough: you can find plenty of these in support of harmful, quackish cancer treatments, too. The fact that Harmon thinks that these anecdotes prove anything just shows how low his standards of evidence really are.

The Justice Department is right to have answered the disability rights groups with an investigation. It should conclude that the Rotenberg Center is conducting an unauthorized and inhumane experiment -- and refuse to allow any further use of its approach until it can prove that it is more effective than more humane alternatives. Given that the center hasn't been able to do that in its decades of existence, the program should be shuttered.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by Guest »
traight, St. Pete, early 80s
AA is a cult http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult.html

The more boring a child is, the more the parents, when showing off the child, receive adulation for being good parents-- because they have a tame child-creature in their house.  ~~  Frank Zappa