Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....

[Matt C. Hoffman]

Anne,

It seems that the x assistant director just is incapable of getting honest . It twists and turns and doesn't seem to realize that what it has done is in black and white ( actually what, an off white color) .

Oh I percieved that statement as a threat and I posted accordingly . I have been threatened before in the program that the x assistant director (supposedly) worked for elan .

Marty Kruglik handed a baseball bat to two people guarding me and blasting me on my shotdown in the summer of 75.
And what the x assistant directors buddy (face book friends list) Kruglik  said to those 2 people that "if I even gave them a hint , the slightest hint , that they were to beat me to death on the spot "

I lived with that baseball bat and people guarding for over 2 months night and day knowing that I could be beaten to death at any given moment. yes I lived in sheer fear of my life.The base ball bat was taken away 2 months into my shotdown of 3 months.

The x assistant director post threats and then denies that they are threats. I am sorry I do not understand . the x assistant director assumes way to much about me to the point that it really makes him look like the complete idiot that he is .

You know I love the Grateful Dead , I think they were the most wonderful band of all time ,I went to a lot of meetings (sorry shows ) . I know that there are a lot of people that don't like the dead . Hey thats fine I am not going to jam Grateful Dead crap down peoples throats and call them all losers because they don't succomb to the way I think about the GRAteful DEad .

This is exactly what you do with this crap about AA. no one wants to hear it and they have been politely trying to tell you about 2 weeks ago.

I don't threaten people never have and I never will . But I did sell the x assistant director a ticket , that I will gladly cash . That was if  he comes anywhere near me I will call the police and hopefully he will start the process of healing from his inpolite way of behaving on a discussion board in prison, and treatening a true suvivour.

If the x assistant director was really that an x assistant director ,which I am beginning to doubt , I would suggest that he post relevant material (things that it witnessed at elan ) that will help shut down elan and expose it for what elan was  and not proselytize AA.

After all I am here to shut down elan and not get people to view the Grateful dead as how I do. I am a really big fan of the Grateful DEAD. And I don't think many folks think I try to convert them to my way of thinking about the DEAD. IT is simply ABSURD.

I don't think that the x assistant director is truly capeable of doing that , but that is my own opinion.

bennison take your stupid whacked apology and place thumb and four fingers on chest and rub vigorously .

Catch my drift .

[FemanonFatal2.0]

It seems as If we have ran away with this subject a bit, so I'll keep my answers simple, but of course, if you'd like to continue debate on the subject of the program maybe we should move it to another thread...

I wish you could step back a little further and see both sides of the issue. Maybe I am guilty also, but I strive to see the good and bad in the industry.  I am not so sure you make the same sincere effort.

I do feel I have an understanding for both sides, in fact, I'll be the first one to tell you that resources to legitimately help struggling families  are a valuable asset to our society, however my issue is not with all programs, as I have mentioned before I do not deny the existence of a program that does not abuse kids and con families. My focus is on, and this I know I have been clear about, the specific methods that are employed by various programs that are either illegal, unethical, psychologically damaging or all of the above. I can't possibly scan every program out there and give a pass or failing grade so I make a point to be specific about my issues with the TTI, none of which are that all people who say they were helped were scammed. However I do believe, and this being based on personal experience that the seminars and some of the marketing techniques employed by many programs in this industry have the power to mislead some people into blindly believing that they are receiving a legitimate service especially when this is a bold faced lie... But you need to consider one more side to that coin, you can only be conned if your ignorant enough to fall for it... regardless of the tide against us, most of us can see the truth when its staring us in the face, The fact that people can be conned by these places really isn't the biggest problem we face here, as I mentioned before, our biggest challenge reaching program supporters is their lack of empathy and abundance of ignorance.

Femanon.  You are only looking at one side of the issue.  Have you considered that maybe the parents and siblings were wronged?  Do really you think that in every case ?  That the family wasn’t hurt also?

sure, you would have to assume as much... I never made any mention to the contrary.

We need to accept and keep our minds open to everyone’s experience, whether we agree with it or not.  To close our minds to other people and hide behind comments like “They must be brain washed” or conned is doing a disservice to themselves and will limit their ability to work towards a solution which will benefit everyone.

I wouldn't have a closed mind to anyone's story if they were gracious enough to share it with me, and point by point I may agree or disagree, but I would never tell someone they were lying about their experience. The ol "brainwashed" adage just refers to the opinion that these places are much like cults in the first place and those who religiously defend it, and attempt to ignore and refute substantial evidence with cult-speak like "the program saved my kid's life", in my opinion, it's simply a logical conclusion.

Like you mentioned we both know that fornits doesn’t represent everyone who attended a program.  People are helped by programs and hurt by programs.  AA is effective with some people and others find a different path.  It's not black and white.  We shouldn’t force everyone to attend a program or AA and on the flip side we shouldn’t shut down every program or pass a law making attending AA a crime.

I don't think every program should be shut down, however I do believe, in order for these programs to remain in existence they need to apply rigorous standards and do away with the current "tough love" model and methods. I have no problem with a program, or recovery center offering therapy, support and teaching life skills... In fact I wish that there were more resources like this available for everyone... but I believe there is such a stark difference between a legitimate recovery center and a TTI program and those differences are the reason I oppose these kinds of programs.

I feel the same way about AA... I have no problem with the initial principal of AA, as far as a network of support groups, and generally I agree with the notion that those who feel genuinely afflicted by their compulsions should be able to find a way to halt their destructive behaviors... However there are more than a few reasons AA crosses that line into "cult-like" and those are the reasons I am forced to reject AA as a legitimate organization.

like you said, nothing is black and white, and there is both good and bad, but consider this... if we were to be giving pass or failing grades here I'd have to assume that more than 50% of what goes down in these places needs to be changed... and I don't know how long it's been since you were in school but less than 50% is a FAIL. Sending your kid to a program with those odds, is not a bet any parent should take with the future of their child. Despite all of the information available and even considering the indecent track record of the industry and such a massive discrepancy between those who approve and oppose many parents still take that gamble and although I can understand the motivating factors behind such a decision, I fail to understand the logic that a parent would be willing to put their child in danger and just hope against all hope that they don't end up on our side of the fence...

[FemanonFatal2.0]

DANNY,

I was hoping I may be able to get a response from you on a few points I made...

quoted for your convenience.

Hmm... well Danny, although my intent was not to sabotage your belief system... I must admit I find it hard to relate. Not to the need for common understanding, in fact I encourage a group therapy environment, and certainly not the need for a basic life principals. What I have a hard time understanding is why a doctrine that encourages you to believe you are powerless has any positive effect on your willpower to stay sober. In fact, I'm almost positive that way of thinking greatly contributes to the failure of so many addicts that have attended these meetings.

I guess it doesn't help that I am also not a fan of organized religion and can really only view AA/NA as a modern day attempt at religious conquest. I find the idea that the only thing that can keep a man sober is some imaginary being quite disturbing and frankly illogical when the man is the only one who can choose to drink the booze.

That surely doesn't mean I hate anyone, and I don't think you are all idiots. My crass language is only descriptive of my utter bewilderment of such a concept.

As well, I wasn't inferring that I don't have my own "addictions" but I do not claim to be diseased, from what I understand, those are called "impulses" and they are things I can learn to control with will power and intent. I would find it very difficult to ever expect to look outside myself for control over my own emotions and surely not my decision making.

I've seen many different sides of what has been labeled by AA to be the "disease concept", I've seen many people self medicate due to pre-existing disorders, a few with legitimate addictive personalities and believe it or not I've met several people who just crave the "druggie" lifestyle... does this mean they are all diseased? I think there needs to be further study into this concept, considering addiction was only categorized as a disease so that it could be treatable instead of punishable, I think AA kind of ran away with that one trying to give creditability to the whole "powerless" pretense.

Call me an idealist but wouldn't it just make sense to apply some good ol fashioned analytical psychology to the treatment of addiction? Why does it always have to be one size fits all? I would picture someone with a bonafide addictive disorder to be in great need of some in depth personal therapy, not just a meeting to listen to other people bitch about how they fucked up their lives. Because for people like this, just abstaining from their drug of choice is NOT going to "save their lives", it takes a total life change.

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[DannyB II]

...

[Banny Dennison]

Matt would you shut the fuck up already, you made your point already now. Everybody is with ya buddy.
Your 15 mins. though is almost over.
Danny

Hey Danny, my fifteen minutes with your mama is just about to begin.  Here's hoping that I get my ten bucks' worth out of her.

[DannyB II]

...

[Banny Dennison]

Whew!  Danny, I got my ten bucks' worth (and then some) out of your mama, that's for sure.  Now she and I are gonna relax; we'll have a drink and do a J.

[DannyB II]

..

[Banny Dennison]

Danny: we never heard of "Chick Tracy" before, but earlier your mama went "Dick Crazy."

[FemanonFatal2.0]

Why thank you, I appreciate your honesty and the time you took to answer my questions. but honestly it would really help a lot if you would be willing to utilize the quote feature... if you need some guidance as to how to do so feel free to pm me or hell even start a new thread...

What I have a hard time understanding is why a doctrine that encourages you to believe you are powerless has any positive effect on your willpower to stay sober. In fact, I'm almost positive that way of thinking greatly contributes to the failure of so many addicts that have attended these meetings.

The only time powerless comes into play for me is when I take that first drink then I don't know what's going to happen next. When I am under the influence of Alcohol I am powerless. That is my interpretation. Otherwise I have power lots of it, the power to make choices ect....

okay, I can dig that, I think many of us have experienced something along those lines... but in my studies and participation in AA/NA there was a bit more to this notion, it really ties into the whole disease concept which serves to both summon a lack of self belief and deflect personal responsibility. How many people in AA/NA tell their stories and refer to themselves as a monster when under the influence? well I hate to break it to you but alcohol doesn't have the power to turn good people into monsters, that side of you is part of who you are and your choices under the influences are still very much your choices. You can't claim to have a disease and be excused for those actions, just the same as you can't murder someone and find Jesus and be forgiven... I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but you can't change the past and making excuses for it isn't going to make it okay. If anyone came up to me and told me it was part of their program to make amends to me I would tell them that forgiveness is earned, not asked for.

I guess it doesn't help that I am also not a fan of organized religion and can really only view AA/NA as a modern day attempt at religious conquest. I find the idea that the only thing that can keep a man sober is some imaginary being quite disturbing and frankly illogical when the man is the only one who can choose to drink the booze.

Naa then you haven't been to a lot of meeting most of us cannot stand organized religion, I personally am nondenominational, I more believe a spirit that the native Indians believe then I do anything else. Believing in something greater then myself or yourself is as old as the universe. It is very simple for me Femanon, When a man is in the grips of Alcoholism or hard core drug dependency it is going to take a lot more than making a decision to help you come through. Doctors, nurses, counselors, Hospital care, detox and medication maybe. Well all of that is more powerful then you. Because if you're sick, "the sick cannot get the sick healthy". I've tried. So there is so much in this life of ours that is more powerful than me so therefore I am powerless over it. Not a illogical, disturbing, frightening or imaginary belief.

Well I agree that an addict needs and should reach out for outside help and support, but what does god have to do with it? Forgive my "extreme beliefs" but isn't god just like Santa Claus for grownups? and why do you have to have the threat of hell in your heart to be a good person? isn't just being a good person, enjoying your life, friends and family a good enough reason to stay on a healthy path in life. Now I know you say you are nondenominational, and I know they word it as "higher power" in order to include those of you who are not particularly religious, but you must realize that AA is an organized religion in and of itself. It originated as a work pertaining to Christian faith and it has been modified over the years to be able to include people like you in hopes that you may be vulnerable enough to convert. I've seen it myself, good friend of mine actually... had the same conversation with her and she even admitted she had no intention of becoming Christian or going to church before she got involved with AA/NA... that's how they getcha... AA or death = Jesus or hell
 

... I wasn't inferring that I don't have my own "addictions" but I do not claim to be diseased, from what I understand, those are called "impulses" and they are things I can learn to control with will power and intent. I would find it very difficult to ever expect to look outside myself for control over my own emotions and surely not my decision making.

No I don't buy into that either the disease explanation. Whoa Femonon you have to understand that my explanations will always be based on, "while I am under the influence of alcohol". I don't have any will power, sense of morality, control of intent. Alcohol is a drug I think everyone forgets that sometimes. Which I believe effects us all differently, in my case most disturbing. While your drunk I don't think you should be looking outside yourself you might throw up on your buddy...lol.

So it seems what your telling me is that AA has a take it or leave it policy with the 12 steps?... The problem with the powerlessness belief be it under the influence or because you are supposedly an alcoholic for life, is that it sets a state of mind that you are not in control of your life... although I have to agree with you that many things in this world are simply not within our reach to control, I must disagree that one is not in control of their impulses, under the influence or not, your choices are still your choices. One cannot lose their morality due to the ingestion of a substance, one may lose their will power, but that too is still under your control. This notion that you are powerless or lacking in control is really quite defeatist and in my opinion detrimental. In my opinion the addicted persons should be indoctrined with a mantra of self regulation, complete responsibility for ones actions and the fortunate truth that we all have what it takes to make our lives better... Addicts for the most part of their lives have felt powerless, what is the point in reinforcing those slippery self destructive beliefs when you should be empowering each other, and learning to trust and believe in yourself.

.... a few with legitimate addictive personalities and believe it or not I've met several people who just crave the "druggie" lifestyle... does this mean they are all diseased?

I won't agree with you that anybody in their right mind enjoys the "druggie lifestyle". They are on the druggie maintenance program...lol. If you know what I mean.

well, this might just be a disconnection between our generation because there are PLENTY of people my age who LOVE the party scene, and the lifestyle that comes with drugs and drinking... It becomes a big part of their personality, and that in and of itself prevents them from wanting to get sober.
 

... I would picture someone with a bonafide addictive disorder to be in great need of some in depth personal therapy, not just a meeting to listen to other people bitch about how they fucked up their lives. Because for people like this, just abstaining from their drug of choice is NOT going to "save their lives", it takes a total life change.

...Now Now we are not sitting around bitching and if you are, shame on you. You are right everything has to change; Persons, Places and things if you want to get off drugs and alcohol.

LOL then what ARE you doing in AA? Because I've been to my fair share of meetings, and that is EXACTLY what those people are doing. It's quite annoying if you ask me... As if they have nothing better to do with their lives than to wallow in their old druggie stories and complain about their constant craving. I honestly feel like most of these people should be seeing a therapist because the atmosphere of the meetings is only keeping them in their shit. I feel it is much more healthy to just seek help, learn some tools and move on, don't keep coming back telling the same ol cautionary tale... as much as you may think it's helping other people to see how bad it got for you it's damaging to your psyche to be reliving those memories every time you speak out at a meeting. I don't have a problem with those who have found success going back to support those who need help, but I think drug therapy should be focused on learning and teaching coping skills not divulging your deepest darkest secrets to a room full of strangers. That to me just screams catholic confession... go ahead do 3 hail marys, it won't mean shit but hell you'll feel better right?

[Che Gookin]

If I had to go to a catholic confession the above statement would be far to loquacious for my tastes.

The nun however, yeeeeeeeaaaah baby.

[Banny Dennison]

Danny's mother let me take some nekkid pictures of her this afternoon.  Want to see those, too?

[DannyB II]

...

[Banny Dennison]

Hey Danny: your mom and I smoked some crack together a little while ago, and after we ran out of crack I let her freebase my scrotum.

[DannyB II]

..