Fornits attitudes on AA border on the absurd....

[Anne Bonney]

It is always funny until it is family and your loved one is sitting in front of you and your saying it is a bad habit, you don't need a higher power pull your boots straps up and stop it. Your running around trying to find help. I know many of you haven't been their with a loved one yet.

You do now?  Really?  Well, you'd be dead wrong.

Well thank god, I really don't wish this calamity on you. Like I said there will be folks that show up here and I want them to have the other experience of AA to read. Just in case god forbid they may need it. I know you good folks who think you have it all figured out can at least concede this point.
Thanks.........
Danny... :shamrock:

No, you really weren't.  You started off telling me to "take it to the judge" and that nobody wanted to hear it.  What I'm doing is presenting the 'other side'.  Most views of AA are positive, IMO because any time anyone dares criticize AA, they're met with vitriolic hyperbole such as you displayed.  THAT is my major problem with it (among many others).  It absolutely refuses to entertain any kind of critical thought.  It teaches that the self is bad and this mysterious "higher power" will absolve and save them from it all.  It teaches powerlessness, which I think is EXTREMELY damaging to the sense of self and the very soul.  It teaches that the subjects will DIE if they leave the rooms (surely they are signing their own death warrant).  

Y'know...I might not feel so vehemently about AA if their followers didn't act like a bunch of rabid dogs every time someone criticized it.  It just smacks of cultishness every time they do and I guess that's what gets to me.

[FemanonFatal2.0]

Y'know...I might not feel so vehemently about AA if their followers didn't act like a bunch of rabid dogs every time someone criticized it.  It just smacks of cultishness every time they do and I guess that's what gets to me.

I agree, and the main reason I may be a bit more sensitive to this subject is because this is the same way that program supporters act toward survivors. They get very defensive as if their whole state of mind will unravel if they were to someday come to the realization that most of what they believe in is simply a widespread case of the placebo effect.

The main problem I have with these places, (or literature) is that it claims other people's personal success as proof that their program works, when quite literally you can give the same program to 10 people and each one will react differently and attain varrying degrees of success and failure. The bottom line is the power to change only lies within the intent and willpower of the person, not the program.

Wheres the sense of self worth?... Is it really considered treatment to convince yourself that you are diseased, inheritly weak and doomed to suffer forever? I mean if thats not a self fulfilling prophecy I don't know what is. What about all those people who have had the strength to pull themselves out of the gutter, be it with some help from friends and their AA group, but internally the choice was theirs and theirs alone... Where is the praise for these people unrelenting willpower? Stay humble right? Give it to god and believe in the program, right? No I'm sorry, its called the will to survive, personal strength and willpower and these people and these people alone deserve the credit for all their hard work, not some big book.

[Whooter]

I agree, and the main reason I may be a bit more sensitive to this subject is because this is the same way that program supporters act toward survivors. They get very defensive as if their whole state of mind will unravel if they were to someday come to the realization that most of what they believe in is simply a widespread case of the placebo effect.

I think it is passion for what you believe in and some people go to extremes to defend what they believe.  To be fair survivors tend to be just as passionate and some get defensive if someone points out to them that they had a choice, when they were in the program, to be successful or to fail.  They choose their own path whether they want to believe it or not.  The survivors who did well are quick to tell you that the program helped them tremendously and will argue that point and the survivors who did not do well or didn’t apply themselves will adamantly try to blame the program for their short falls and not themselves. It is human nature and we read it here everyday on fornits.  But the bottom-line is we can all take credit for our own lives.

The main problem I have with these places, (or literature) is that it claims other people's personal success as proof that their program works, when quite literally you can give the same program to 10 people and each one will react differently and attain varrying degrees of success and failure. The bottom line is the power to change only lies within the intent and willpower of the person, not the program.

I agree with you here.  The people are responsible for their own successes and failures.  The programs, AA or local therapist etc. can only educate and point the person down the right path, but the hard work is done by the individuals.  The kids that leave a program and are successful are told they are successful because of the work they have done.  The program doesn’t take the credit.  Many programs may report 80% success rates but they are not the program success rates they are the graduate’s success rates.

Wheres the sense of self worth?... Is it really considered treatment to convince yourself that you are diseased, inheritly weak and doomed to suffer forever? I mean if thats not a self fulfilling prophecy I don't know what is. What about all those people who have had the strength to pull themselves out of the gutter, be it with some help from friends and their AA group, but internally the choice was theirs and theirs alone... Where is the praise for these people unrelenting willpower? Stay humble right? Give it to god and believe in the program, right? No I'm sorry, its called the will to survive, personal strength and willpower and these people and these people alone deserve the credit for all their hard work, not some big book.

Exactly, Some people just need a little more help than others.

When reviewing a book people rarely, if ever, credit the vehicles used in the making of the book (i.e. the Pen,paper or brand of typewriter, laptop) the credit goes to the author.  The same applies to children graduating from programs.  They should be proud and most of them are.



...

[Troll Control]

I agree, and the main reason I may be a bit more sensitive to this subject is because this is the same way that program supporters act toward survivors. They get very defensive as if their whole state of mind will unravel if they were to someday come to the realization that most of what they believe in is simply a widespread case of the placebo effect.

Well said.  Most of these parents have no idea that there is no science behind programs; that there is no evidence they work and there never has been.  These folks are operating on faith alone and that's dangerous for their children.

Some, on the other hand, know full well these programs are rooted in quackery, have long and storied histories of abuse and neglect, that many have been shuttered by authorities for abuse and neglect and some even had their child killed in the program.  Yet their egos still drive them to defend the indefensible simply to avoid the admittance that they damaged, destroyed or even killed their child to avoid the cognitive dissonance and having to admit they did something gravely wrong that probably also wrecked their family's financial stabilty and their children's futures.

John Reuben is a prime example of this.  After his two sons finished three confirmedly abusive programs (SUWS, ASR and HLA) and one ended up dead, he used paid obituaries for his boy as a donation portal to funnel cash and kids into the very machine that ground up his own son.  This is a really sick mentality and people like John will go to any length to avoid responsibility for killing, maiming or psychologically destroying their kids.

[Che Gookin]

I'm drinking a beer right now in the name of AA. Thanks dudes for keeping me in beer and keeping the lushes off it. No need for them to drink up all my beer, pricks.

Seriously though danny.... Take it from a guy, me, who has had some of the most spectacular implosions ever on this website (admin jihad  :rocker: ), You really do need to step away from the keyboard and take some time to assess what you are about.

Are you about having a shrieking hissy fit or are you about getting something done with Elan? Like I pointed out to you in a private conversation on facebook, Elan is probably laughing their asses off knowing their is turmoil and chaos in the survivor community. The cocksuckers are probably hovering like vultures waiting to feed on this forum. Now this forum thrives with constructive debate and the occasional troll (just to keep folks on their toes), but there is nothing constructive about this debate.

You've gone into full snapping turtle mode, and you are doing nothing but staying pulled into your shell and are snapping away at everyone.

Ok, we get it.. You believe in AA.

Most of us here don't.

What you may want to consider is either finding ways to debate the issue constructively, or just not talking about AA at all and focus on giving Elan a well needed beat down or epic proportions. Cause I'll tell you what ol' timer..

Elan isn't the only vulture in the sky waiting to get their fill. This carcass, your situation metaphorically speaking, has been dragging out the trolls as we speak. What sickens me to some extent is one particular one, a forum regular as well, who has been jumping all over the place and using socks to attack you while he supports you in his real persona.

Basically, you've marginalized yourself and are becoming entertainment. In carney parlance, you're the freakshow and people are getting to the point where they can't resist taking a jab.

Again dude.. step back, take some time off, and focus on Elan on this website. You aren't going to win any converts with what you are doing.

Take a couple weeks off to mellow out and come back swinging, AT elan..

[DannyB II]

..

[Anne Bonney]

To be fair survivors tend to be just as passionate and some get defensive if someone points out to them that they had a choice, when they were in the program, to be successful or to fail.  They choose their own path whether they want to believe it or not.  The survivors who did well are quick to tell you that the program helped them tremendously and will argue that point and the survivors who did not do well or didn’t apply themselves will adamantly try to blame the program for their short falls and not themselves.

Femanon explains this phenomenon beautifully

I bet you do it means work.

Danny.....

No, just the opposite.  Loaded language is designed to stop critical thought. That's why AA and programs employ so much of it.

I must agree. In fact I was thinking about this the other day, I used the word "accountability" in some way to refer to something I was responsible for, and my husband kinda looked at me weird. It wasn't that it was just a big word, it was that I was taking responsibility for something that really had nothing to do with me.

So of course it got me thinking, why have did I use this word in this way and why am I conditioned to take "accountability" for something that I should be holding someone else responsible for? Then of course it dawned on me where I learned this term.... the program. I had a hard time understanding the concept they were trying to create for this word, which was that no matter who or what initally caused the incident in question, YOU are accountable for the outcome because in one way or another YOU created it.

The way they explained this was with a drawing of two cars at an intersection, one car runs a red light and the other car, who has the green light, t-bones that car. Common sense would say that the car who ran the light is responsible for the accident but taking "accountability" means that if YOU were the person who went on the green light, that YOU are responsible for the crash simply because you chose to drive down that road that day.

This "accountability" concept was used quite a lot in the program, mostly as feedback to convince those skeptical of admitting to being alcoholics but it was also used to convince otherwise normal teenagers that they somehow created the abuse they were receiving simply because they "got themselves to the program". This was precisely what I was told when I reported the abusive staff and conditions at High Impact and this is the same mentality that program supporters are using against survivors who speak out. They refer to us as bad seeds, whiners, or money grubbers but what they are really saying is that they believe that in every circumstance we deserved the abuse. Taking "accountability" in the sense they describe is very much like battered wife syndrome, blindly accepting abuse and or consequences for reasons that logically do not infer fault, and more importantly obsolving those who ARE responsible.

In my opinion, this was just another way they were using these techniques to control the thought processes of their followers in unabashed intent on skirting their own responsibility to give proper treatment of the patients in their care. One can wonder why they would really go so out of their way... but im assuming it starts with a $ and ends with a $$ :deal:

[DannyB II]

...

[DannyB II]

..

[Anne Bonney]

Anne, Now were going to have AA and programs on the same level.

Ummm, what?  One more time in English please.

AA is a set of principles in a book, pick it up if you want

Please read for comprehension.  I've told you over and over again that I have read the big book/12 & 12

My debate with you is on the way AA "suggests" the principles it sets forth.

Unless each A.A. member follows to the best of his ability our suggested Twelve Steps to recovery, he almost certainly signs his own death warrant.

Do what we say or you'll DIE!!!

The only thing really that AA gave me is a vision of life without drugs and Alcohol and a means to get there. That's it. AA does not control my life

It really does.  More than you're aware of apparently

to me it's not a program (I do not like that term).

Doesn't matter if you like it or not.  AA is a program.  

I got what I needed and moved on with my life. I go back to meeting maybe once a week and give back help someone. I also accept calls to help folks get to detoxes and Hospitals, before they die in most cases.

And no doubt tell them to do 90/90, right?

My problem is the treatment centers, jails, courts and other institutions and egomaniacs have taken a decent set of simple principles and confused the shit out of them.

Adn that's what I've been saying all along.  Those "principles" are what I have a problem with.  Not the people in the rooms.


 

What I have read here, heard on the phone and read elsewhere
is sad. Did not really know.
Danny

Didn't know what?  Did you even read thru the Orange Papers site or just dismiss it because it doesn't conform to your POV?

[DannyB II]

..

[Anne Bonney]

Anne you have selective highlighting, noticed no comment on Straight and the fact they jammed their version of AA down your throat. Come on!!!

I'm quoting what I'm responding to.  Are you new to discussion boards?  The rest of you post is right up there for anyone to read.  It's not like I deleted it (or could).

I never said Straight rammed AA down my throat.  I know you'd like to come up with some excuse for me not buying into AA, but it's simply because I finally truly looked at it.  I listened to my gut (something AA discourages) when it smacked of cultishness.  Then I investigated, did some research and found that I was FAAARRRRRRR from the only one who felt that way.  The more research I did, the more dangerous I realized AA was/is.   Why are you so threatened by any criticism of it?

Come clean your making me,

what?

you are extremely bias because of Straight.

That's your assumption....again.  I wasn't exposed to AA until long after I was out of Straight.

This happened first then the Orange Papers came into your life sprinkled with your visits to AA rooms. Great way to be introduced then give your rendition of AA. Anne does all this sound familar same thing your saying to me. Look in the mirror.
Danny :shamrock:  :shamrock:

No.  It doesn't sound familiar because I have no idea what the fuck you're saying half the time.  Please read AND WRITE for comprehension.

[Anne Bonney]

Well that's weird.  Ding Dong posted a reply that included all the pretty AA talking points.  Heavy on the alcoholism is a disease, but it's gone now.  Was only up for a minute.  Hmmmm.


Edited to add.....

They registered just to post that and then remove it?


Statistics

Total posts 337235 • Total topics 24196 • Total members 5289 • Our newest member Ding Dong

[DannyB II]

..

[Anne Bonney]

If you were in straight they rammed it down your throat. AA is dangerous now???

Bbbbbut  AA and Straight are different, right??   You can't have it both ways.

Having the freedom to pick up a book and read or not is dangero

No, but when the book says "do it this way or DIE"  it smacks of cultish behavior.

"No Anne It is folks like you that misrepresent information that can help people for the sole reason it doesn't fit your mold".

Your opinion.

Why is it every time I have disagreed with you, "You" have come back defensive.

I haven't.  

Calling AA dangerous is just irresponsible behavior

Your opinion.

, I can understand that you don't like their philosophies or principles but "dangerous" come'on.

yes, even their own study shows that binge drinking increased, the death rate increased, so yeah...dangerous.
 

Bill was a crazy one no doubt with his language, follow the 12 steps "suggestions" to the best of my "ability" I sign my own death warrant. Ya, considering when I walked in the room of AA I was within 2 weeks of looking at a toe tag. Why are you afraid of absolutes.

Because they're not real life.

If not go out and pick up a bottle and drink if you are a alcoholic you have a 50% chance of surviving if not have a drink on me.

I will in about 1/2 hour!  :cheers:   I don't have a problem, contrary to what both Straight and AA told me.

Whether you like it or not their are alcoholics and someone or something will be treating them.

Yes, and I'd rather they get treated by professionals with clinical research to back up their methods.

So since your not a alcoholic what is your argument. What the fuck do you care your not out there trying to help. Your just ranting at me because you don't like the way I talk to people and how I talk about AA.

No, I think AA is a dangerous program that convinces people that they're alcoholics even if they're not.  I think it's dangerous to the alcoholics when they say 'do it our way or DIE'.  

Which brings me back to my point you are full of Doo Doo, you really could give a rats ass if AA is here or not it doesn't effect your life...please.

There's that joyous happy and free spirit again!

Of course I tell them to do a 90/90, I'm telling you for your frustrations boiling over.
Danny

 :roflmao:  No dear...you have no effect on my mood, other than to give me the occasional chuckle at the Stepcrafter.