Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Public Sector Gulags
New York State shutting state facilities?
Ursus:
--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---While we're on the subject of "more effective therapeutic models," do tell us what is so "therapeutic" about going through Aspen's Lifesteps, experiential exercises based in part on those used in the psychologically destructive LGAT Lifespring?
Given how coercive and damaging many adults found Lifespring's methodology to be, what makes you think it would be anything but more so for adolescents?
--- End quote ---
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---@ Ursus : Oh boy, your asking the wrong guy on that one. I don't have a background in therapy. I know first hand that sitting in a Russian style sauna in the winter time and then jumping into the snow or icy pond is extremely therapeutic but I couldn't explain the details of why it works. It just does.
--- End quote ---
I see... ;D
And this sauna experience works its way into your alleged credentials for touting the "beneficial" or "therapeutic" nature of TBSs ... HOW?
If you recall, you were the one who saw fit to broach the subject in this thread (about New York state juvies) with the following bit of advertising:
For those families who can afford an alternative the private Therapeutic boarding schools will still be a better option because the majority of these kids are not serious offenders and also can avoid getting a record which could affect college acceptance in many cases.[/list]
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---@ Ursus : Oh boy, your asking the wrong guy on that one. I don’t have a background in therapy. I know first hand that sitting in a Russian style sauna in the winter time and then jumping into the snow or icy pond is extremely therapeutic but I couldn’t explain the details of why it works. It just does.
--- End quote ---
Aah but can you prove it works? Just because something makes a person feel fantastic or changed or healthy does not make it so. The amount of popular snake oil and quackery out there in the market proves that. Something can only be said to objectively work or be therapeutic if it provide demonstratable, consistant, and repeatable results. That has never been done with the programs you support so highly. One would think given the amount of money in this industry that if these programs actually worked there would be some independent, peer reviewed studies out there, but there aren't. Why is that?
--- End quote ---
Oh, we have been through that psy. there are plenty of studies to support that programs are effective. But the ones that are independent are rejected here on fornits because of a previous employment to the industry or the results are not found to be popular so they are discarded out of hand or the published paper didnt have a sample size that suited everyone. We all know the drill..
So we can see that the only study to be accepted will have to be paid for by someone outside the industry and no one has volunteered yet. Cant blame the industry for that.
As for the russian sauna,I cannot prove it works (at least none that I can think of) but experiencing it first hand convinces me that it does.
...
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "Ursus" ---And this sauna experience works its way into your alleged credentials for touting the "beneficial" or "therapeutic" nature of TBSs ... HOW?
--- End quote ---
Whoa, Ursus, you got some fur (or fir) across yer ass tonight? The TBS’s stand on their own. They don’t need the likes of me to tout them. The Sauna story was in response to knowing the therapeutic value of LGAT’s. I have no idea how to explain how they are effective because I have a background in engineering. I base my opinions on what I have read and the people I have met and first hand knowledge like most of the other posters here.
--- Quote ---If you recall, you were the one who saw fit to broach the subject in this thread (about New York state juvies) with the following bit of advertising:
For those families who can afford an alternative the private Therapeutic boarding schools will still be a better option because the majority of these kids are not serious offenders and also can avoid getting a record which could affect college acceptance in many cases.
--- End quote ---
The Missouri Model was put in place to replace the existing "prison system". So if the parents can afford to send their kids to a private TBS and the kid isn’t a hardened criminal “and” the kid has a good shot at a decent college it would be advantageous to place him/her in a private institution. They both may be similar in effectiveness but colleges frown on accepting a kid into college from state juvy facilities (prisons).
I don’t see this as derailing the thread and I thought it was worth mentioning.
...
psy:
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---
--- Quote from: "psy" ---
--- Quote from: "Whooter" ---@ Ursus : Oh boy, your asking the wrong guy on that one. I don’t have a background in therapy. I know first hand that sitting in a Russian style sauna in the winter time and then jumping into the snow or icy pond is extremely therapeutic but I couldn’t explain the details of why it works. It just does.
--- End quote ---
Aah but can you prove it works? Just because something makes a person feel fantastic or changed or healthy does not make it so. The amount of popular snake oil and quackery out there in the market proves that. Something can only be said to objectively work or be therapeutic if it provide demonstratable, consistant, and repeatable results. That has never been done with the programs you support so highly. One would think given the amount of money in this industry that if these programs actually worked there would be some independent, peer reviewed studies out there, but there aren't. Why is that?
--- End quote ---
Oh, we have been through that psy. there are plenty of studies to support that programs are effective. But the ones that are independent are rejected here on fornits because of a previous employment to the industry or the results are not found to be popular so they are discarded out of hand or the published paper didnt have a sample size that suited everyone. We all know the drill..
--- End quote ---
Interesting tactic. Declare you've won without actually doing so. What studies might these be, Whooter? You say we've already been through this. For the benefit of those reading who haven't perhaps you can elaborate on which studies you are referring to. Might it be the Behrens study (read that link if you're new here)? Long story short: woman who did the story used to work at an aspen program and currently recommend and refers to them. That's hardly an independent source of information. She has a financial as well as an ideological interest in the outcome. Got anything better, or are you just here to assure the parents that the studies exist without actually showing them the hard evidence?
--- Quote ---So we can see that the only study to be accepted will have to be paid for by someone outside the industry and no one has volunteered yet. Cant blame the industry for that.
As for the russian sauna,I cannot prove it works (at least none that I can think of) but experiencing it first hand convinces me that it does.
--- End quote ---
And I wouldn't contest since there is probably no great evidence to go either way. I would, however, have a problem if you marketed it to cure cancer, it didn't work, and after the patient dies you sit there, shrug your shoulders and go "well. I still believe it works". It's false advertising.
Whooter:
This is getting off topic but I’ll respond…
I checked your link and your first source is a random posting with no back up where you tried to show she was a clinical director… also I couldn’t find any evidence that she is currently referring to aspen programs. But even if she were you need to look at the time frame when the study was being done, not what she is doing today. What if a researcher joins one of the companies they researched? Does this invalidated their previous work? Of course not.
This is what I mean about the studies being accepted here. The study was conducted by “canyon Research” but since it doesn’t go along with your belief that programs are ineffective you wont consider the results and instead waste energy trying to discredit the results in an effort to keep your beliefs alive…… but like I said and your link shows we have been down this path already. This is an old discussion. (The people outside of fornits can rely on the studies)
So now that we see you dont accept any studies to date which show programs to be effective we will need to wait until someone outside the industry volunteers to fund a study.
Until that happens we will rely on the next best thing which is to speak to families which have had kids attend these programs, speak to and visit the programs themselves and consult professionals familiar with the industry to help guide us towards the better programs and solutions.
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