Author Topic: aparently, adults want to go to programs too  (Read 31540 times)

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Offline Ursus

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #105 on: August 08, 2010, 01:48:04 PM »
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "justonemore"
Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.
WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.
Do you really think of Dr. Phil as the "Zen Meister," Danny?
Well, how do I answer this. Danny 1, did not post this but a lively and satirical young lady did.
I would say ... that you're responsible for everything that's posted under your username. Claiming that it was really someone else... sounds like a bit of a cop-out.
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Offline Ursus

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Self-Help Expert Contests Police Statements
« Reply #106 on: August 08, 2010, 01:56:30 PM »
Back to the story...

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The New York Times
Arizona: Self-Help Expert Contests Police Statements
By JOHN DOUGHERTY
Published: October 12, 2009


A spokesman for James Arthur Ray, the self-help expert who was leading a sweat lodge ceremony in Sedona when two people died and three others were critically injured on Thursday, is contesting statements by the police that the lodge was built by Mr. Ray's staff. The spokesman, Howard Bragman, said Mr. Ray's contract with the Angel Valley spiritual retreat called for Angel Valley to "design and construct" the sweat lodge. Dwight D'Evelyn, a Yavapai County Sheriff's Office spokesman, said the office stood by its contention that members of Mr. Ray's staff built the sweat lodge. Angel Valley's owners declined to comment on the contract. Mr. Bragman also contested earlier police statements that Mr. Ray had left the area Thursday evening. He said Mr. Ray left Sedona on Friday. Mr. D'Evelyn said Mr. Ray was at Angel Valley as late as 10 p.m. Thursday when detectives began their investigation. Mr. Ray declined to give a statement to detectives on the case, the police said.

A version of this article appeared in print on October 13, 2009, on page A23 of the New York edition.


Copyright 2009 The New York Times Company
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Offline DannyB II

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Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
« Reply #107 on: August 08, 2010, 02:26:28 PM »
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "Ursus"
Quote from: "DannyB II"
Quote from: "justonemore"
Wow Anne, Well done and thanks! J.O.M.
WOW!!!! ya, real nifty, JOM . Like, "what if".
Ya well done Anne, like I bet you were just scrolling through the internet on your bosses time and found this, like, totally awesome take on narcissism. Like, fucking narley duse, totally fits in with the scene around here. This James Ray dude, is like, a total loser, man.
Guru, no way, man. There is only one, "Zen Meister" and that is Dr. Phil, totally wicked, dude.
Do you really think of Dr. Phil as the "Zen Meister," Danny?
Well, how do I answer this. Danny 1, did not post this but a lively and satirical young lady did.
I would say ... that you're responsible for everything that's posted under your username. Claiming that it was really someone else... sounds like a bit of a cop-out.

"You would say",  :rofl: I'm responsible, claiming, cop out, all coming from someone who hides behind a fake name and a law of internet confidentiality, governing Web Sites.
Ursus go and pander your nonsense else where.
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Offline Ursus

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SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Ray speaks out, says he's 'being tested'
« Reply #108 on: August 08, 2010, 02:54:46 PM »
The Daily Courier
10/13/2009 10:23:00 PM

SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Ray speaks out, says he's 'being tested'
By DAISY NGUYEN and FELICIA FONSECA
The Associated Press


LOS ANGELES - The man in charge of a spiritual retreat last week in Arizona that left two people dead after they were overcome in a sweat lodge said Tuesday night he is facing a difficult time and is "being tested" by the tragedy.

The comments from self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray came during a seminar he held at a hotel in Marina del Rey, near Los Angeles. Ray broke down in tears as he addressed the deaths.

"This is the most difficult time I've ever faced," Ray told the crowd of about 200. "I don't know how to deal with it really."

An audience member asked Ray to describe what happened at the retreat, but he declined, saying only that he has hired his own investigative team and is cooperating with authorities.

"We're looking for answers," he said. "I'm as frustrated and confused as other people are."

Ray added that he wrestled with whether to go through with Tuesday's seminar, which he said was scheduled weeks before the sweat lodge deaths.

"My advisers told me, 'Don't do that. You don't know who'll show up. They're going to eat you alive,"' he told the audience. But he said it was important for him to keep his commitments.

"I'm grieving right now," Ray said. "I'm grieving for the families."

Ray led a group of more than 50 people last week through a five-day program at a resort near Sedona, Ariz., intended to push people beyond their limits. The course included a Thursday sweat lodge ceremony, which ended tragically in the deaths of Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee.

Nineteen other people were hurt, and one remains in critical condition.

Ray's comments followed a demand earlier Tuesday from a spokesman for Brown's family for more accountability from Ray.

Tom McFeeley, Brown's cousin and family spokesman, called on Ray to assure that the retreat's participants "were not mistreated and not put in a reckless situation.

"He was someone people believed in, people paid good money to get his advice," McFeeley said. "It's a person we all wanted to believe had our best interest in mind. Quite simply, that didn't happen."

McFeeley also said he is concerned that Ray exhibited a "godlike complex" during the event that might have kept people from opting out of activities Ray acknowledged could cause "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

Fire department reports released Tuesday show the incident wasn't the first involving a sweat lodge ceremony at the resort. Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen said his department responded to a 911 call in October 2005 about a person who was unconscious after being in a sweat lodge.

Angel Valley resort owner Amayra Hamilton confirmed that Ray was leading the sweat ceremony during the 2005 event. Ray's spokesman declined to comment.

Meanwhile, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office continued to investigate last week's ceremony to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. Sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said Tuesday that authorities have not yet spoken with Ray.

Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, declined Tuesday to address the Brown family's concerns.

Authorities say 55 to 65 people attending the program were crowded into the 415-square-foot, crudely built sweat lodge during a two-hour period Thursday night. Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 for the retreat. They were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain inside for the entire two hours, authorities said.

The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet before entering the sweat lodge around 3 p.m. A 911 call two hours later said two people, who authorities said were Shore and Brown, had no pulse and weren't breathing.

Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted, but the results are being withheld pending additional tests. Carbon monoxide poisoning was ruled out as a cause of the deaths and illnesses.

A statement released by the family of Liz Neuman, who remains in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said she is in a coma and doctors are working to stabilize damage to multiple organs.

Two others remained hospitalized. Fire officials say the victims exhibited symptoms ranging from dehydration to kidney failure after sitting in the sweat lodge.

Officials say the sweat lodge, built specifically for the five-day retreat, lacked the necessary building permit.

Resort owners Amayra Hamilton and her husband, Michael, asked Tuesday for prayers in hopes that something positive would come out of what they said was a tragic and unexpected event.


© Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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Offline Ursus

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Comments for "Ray speaks out, says he's 'being tested'..."
« Reply #109 on: August 08, 2010, 03:07:42 PM »
Comments left for the above article, "SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Ray speaks out, says he's 'being tested' " (by Daisy Nguyen and Felicia Fonseca, 10/13/2009, The Daily Courier/AP):


Article comment by: You can't fix stupid · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
    Gee, now doesn't everyone feels sorry for Mr. Ray - how he is being "tested" and all. Hard to believe people pay this moron good money to listen to his nonsense. Hopefully the one good thing that comes from this is this guy's 15 minutes are up.
Article comment by: Maveth · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
    "James Arthur Ray" = "Man Soon To Be Impoverished By Multiple Lawsuits". Self-help expert, eh? Guess he should have consulted some Indians about how to build a proper sweat lodge. Moron.
Article comment by: AMAZED IN AZ · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
    A dominant theme of Mr. Ray's reaction to this whole misbegotten motivational money-making venture seems to be thus: "It's all about me." The victims appear to be barely after thoughts by Mr. Ray and his advisors who are----what? Lawyers? Business partners? Members of Ray's entourage? Hopefully, investigators will be shedding some light on that question--- among others.
Article comment by: Schools out · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
    Tested ? After reading the article about how in 2005 another 911 call came in for the same thing , I think this time "Ray" failed the test . Its becoming increasingly clear he put people at risk on more than one occasion , to busy counting his money or whatever, to pay attention to what he was doing. Now as a increasing number of past participants are comming out and more will , Next press conference he'll probably claim to be a victim. Sorry "Ray", you're done . Test over you failed .
Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
    The editor has removed this comment because it violates the Terms of Use agreement for dCourier.com. The "Use of Service" portion states, "If you use the Service, including the Messages Boards or Blogs, or submit essays, e-mail messages or other information via http://www.courieraz.com or http://www.prescottaz.com, you agree to abide by and be bound by the following:
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    [/list]
    Article comment by: sauna owner · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      The sweat bath rule requiring people to exit the structure to cool off between rounds, usually in cold water, apparently was not followed. Organizers should have consulted someone about the health and safety of participants.
    Article comment by: BM · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      Is Arsenic released as vapor if in the rocks,or ground used.It could account for the deaths aside from having 65 or so suckers in one sweat lodge at $10,000 a pop.
    Article comment by: common sense · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      A severe lack of common sense has been exhibited here by one and all involved! It's very sad that there is this tragic ending to what was supposed to be an enlightening positive experience. My heart goes out to the families.
    Article comment by: Dumb! · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      This guy is only interested in one thing! His own wealth, not anyone elses! Anyone that follows this guy is lost and blinded by his false teachings! My condolences to thoes families who lost someone.
    Article comment by: I bet they ran out of oxygen. · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      They ran out of oxygen. A structure with the stated dimensions and 60 people would give each person 25 cubic feet of room air to breath in 2 hours. I don't think that's enough. This assumes no air came into the structure nor any of the exhaled carbon dioxide (not monoxide) left. That could happen I bet. And they can't test for CO2 like the can CO. It leaves the bloodsream asap.
    Article comment by: Oops · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      So many people seem to be so lost and in need of a leader. I see this with congregations giving thousands of dollars to TV preachers who live in mansions and who don't even bother to read the prayer requests submitted with the check. Besides "freely God has given, freely give." No one should be charging for anything they do in the name of "god." People are so gullible to be giving to these nut cases. Sedona makes its millions off the backs of people who need a guru to lead them by the ring in their noses. "Vortexes" and "Hot Spots" are calling cards to Sedona; get real! You should know this is all kids play - grow up! I've seen your circles of rocks its laughable and childish. Why not put that $10,000.00 into a homeless shelter instead of standing in a building and pouring out drops of sweat looking for some spiritual high. Can you be that needy? Hope you can all learn from this farce! When was the last time your fearless leader Ray stood two hours in a sweat house?
    Article comment by: One Born Every Minute... · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      This is simply nature weeding out the weakest in society. If you really need guidance like this, you're a drain on society anyway. Just like believing in some mythical god. Only the weak need someone to tell them how to live their lives...
    Article comment by: Eddie Eagle · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      Wake up Prescott, these people are coming up from Phoenix to prey on your wealth and good nature. Protect yourself, alarm your house, purchase a firearm from a local dealer. Help the local economy while keeping you and your family safe.
    Article comment by: Can't pass the smell test · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
      Maybe Ray could self-heal himself by giving all of his "clients" their $10,000 back. They clearly didn't reach the level of "worship" that Ray promised them
    Article comment by: Nancy Shelton · Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2009
      I frankly despise any "religious" manifesto (whether New Age or Christian) that includes material wealth as a benefit of spiritual enlightment. This was professed by Ray, as well as some really "splinter" Christian groups. How could a reasoning human being believe that material wealth is bestowed on the spiritually enlighted or faithful? Ray played on these people and their own greed played into their reliance on Ray as their spiritual leader. I'm not sure who is more to blame morally, but I am pretty sure gross negligence (on the part of Ray) is responsible for their deaths.
    Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Friday, October 16, 2009
      The latest on how Ray's left town:
    http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/10/12 ... 8668.shtml[/list]


    © Copyright 2010 Western News&Info, Inc.® The Daily Courier is the information source for Prescott area communities in Northern Arizona.
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    Offline DannyB II

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    Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
    « Reply #110 on: August 08, 2010, 03:13:41 PM »
    Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
    Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
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    Offline Ursus

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    Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
    « Reply #111 on: August 09, 2010, 11:04:59 AM »
    Quote from: "DannyB II"
    Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
    Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
    Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

    I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way.  :D
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    Offline Ursus

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    Sweat Lodge Deaths: Owner Didn't Have Permits
    « Reply #112 on: August 09, 2010, 11:41:26 AM »
    CBSnews.com · CRIMESIDER
    October 13, 2009 9:31 AM

    Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Deaths: Owner Didn't Have Permits
    Posted by Edecio Martinez

    FLAGSTAFF, Ariz. (CBS/AP) No permit. Not even an application.

    A sweat lodge in central Arizona where two people were overcome and later died lacked the necessary building permit, an official said Monday.

    Yavapai County building safety manager Jack Judd said there was no record of an application or permit for a temporary structure at the Angel Valley Retreat Center near Sedona.

    At any one time, 55 to 65 people attending the "Spiritual Warrior" program hosted by self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray were crowded into the 415-square-foot space during a two-hour period Thursday night, Yavapai County sheriff's officials said.

    Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, New York, and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee died after being overcome in the sauna-like hut, which was built specifically for the five-day retreat. Nineteen other people were hospitalized with symptoms ranging from dehydration to kidney failure. One remained in critical condition Monday, and two others were in fair condition.

    Sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said authorities believe Ray's staff either participated in erecting the structure or oversaw the construction. Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, declined to comment on the permit but said the resort's staff was under contract to build a sweat lodge to accommodate up to 75 people.

    Resort owner Michael Hamilton declined to address the permit issue late Monday. His wife, Amayra Hamilton, said Saturday the sweat lodge, which was built with a wood frame and covered with layers of tarps and blankets, had been taken down.

    Judd said no inspection of the structure was conducted before it was dismantled.

    Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen, whose department responded to the initial emergency call of two people not breathing, said his department regularly inspects the Hamiltons' property. He said the couple never hesitates to ask questions, raise concerns or address issues brought up by fire officials.

    An inspection of the fire area used to heat the cantaloupe-sized rocks that were taken into the sweat lodge determined it "would have been a legal fire," Doerksen said.

    The sheriff's office is investigating to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. Tests for contaminants ruled out carbon monoxide poisoning as a cause.

    Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted, but the results are being withheld pending additional tests.

    Sweat lodges — used by American Indian tribes to cleanse the body and prepare for hunts, ceremonies and other events — are a common practice in the area. Most are on private property and hold no more than a dozen people, Doerksen said.

    Large-scale sweat lodges appear to create a "new challenge for us," he said.

    Talks are planned between his department and county officials to consider issuing health warnings for events such as sweat lodges that would include suggestions on how long to stay in.

    "It's the same with hot tubs and saunas," Doerksen said. "Most of the time in a motel, it will say do not stay in there more than 10 to 15 minutes. What we're looking at is the same kind of thing."


    Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.
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    Offline Ursus

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    Comments for "Sweat Lodge Deaths: Owner Didn't Have Permits"
    « Reply #113 on: August 09, 2010, 11:55:54 AM »
    Comments left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Deaths: Owner Didn't Have Permits" (by Edecio Martinez; October 13, 2009; CBS News Crimesider):


    by Ms_enza · October 13, 2009 11:20 AM EDT
      these people were seeking a religious experience; they got one.
    by bearpaw5150 · October 13, 2009 12:03 PM EDT
      Needing a building permit for a sweat lodge is the biggest joke I have ever heard.

      The Elders have been saying for a long time. If you Charge for spirituality. You will pay for it. Hard lessons for people that are unqualified to run sweats. Hope everyone interested learns from this. Of course I highly doubt it......
    by lwilson1952 · October 13, 2009 1:18 PM EDT
      Once again, in the name of spirituality, greed raises it's ugly head. At $9000. a head, no less, this man sponsored a "spiritual experience" that should have never happened. It seems the emphasis was on quantity & not quality. The Elders were right, true spirituality has no price tag. Only those abusing it charge for it and the public who seeks TRUE spirituality will know the difference. Unfortunately, two people paid the ultimate price. Mr Ray has some SERIOUS soul searching to do, I hope he is capable.
    by Patrick-C · October 13, 2009 2:49 PM EDT
      This is why there is a declared war by the Lakota spiritual community against blasphemers of our ceremonies and traditions. The permit is a technicality. The reason those people are dead is because a self-proclaimed self-help guru (I love that word) thought he knew how to run a sweat lodge. And that many people in one lodge is unheard of. He has more than the law to answer to now. We have a sweat lodge every week
      by Ahaseheset · October 13, 2009 3:38 PM EDT
        Isn't it a good that that the Eastern Woodland spiritual community didn't let out the ceremonies of the people.
        Otherwise,you would see longhouses with ticketbooths at the door all over Amercia.

        Those of you who would go to a non-native run sweat lodge: Would you also go to holy communion and confessional without having priest concuct the ceremony?? How much would you be willing to pay some self help guru for each "Hail Mary?"

        Sacred traditions are sacred traditions and all should be respected and not exploited by money grabbing charlatons.
      [/list]
      by Ahaseheset · October 13, 2009 3:43 PM EDT
        eh...I apologize for not proof reading before posting.
        It is supposed to read: "...a priest conduct the ceremony."
        <<sigh>>
      by Harden_Tar · October 13, 2009 4:47 PM EDT
        People wanting to play "A Man Called Horse", and other people willing to take their money and let them do it. The people that do this for real have generations of experience and training and probably would not invite a group of wannabes into their ceremony in any event. These are "Self Help" snake oil salesmen preying on the poor souls that think they will gain some sort of spiritual enlightenment from some dude that is "hosting" their event. Sorry people died. Somebody needs to go to jail.


      Copyright ©2010 CBS Interactive Inc.
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      Offline Anne Bonney

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      Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
      « Reply #114 on: August 09, 2010, 12:19:39 PM »
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Ya well done Anne

      Thanks, I thought it was pretty good myself.

       :seg:  :seg:  :seg2:  :seg2:
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      traight, St. Pete, early 80s
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      Offline DannyB II

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      Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
      « Reply #115 on: August 09, 2010, 03:49:17 PM »
      Quote from: "Ursus"
      Quote from: "DannyB II"
      Jeesh, this is all great and what not but your posts are almost a year old and what the hell does any of this have to do with the TTI. As written on the home page of Fornits.
      Oh, that's right Ursus is off on one of his, Chronicles of Blarnia, well I sure do hope your entertained.
      Oh, I think it has quite a lot to do with the TTI. There's more than a few of the same methodologies used ... when it comes to getting folks to give up their critical reasoning skills and "follow the leader."

      I'm guessing you don't agree, and it's certainly within your rights to opine that-a-way.  :D


      No that would be the adult version, TAI.
      There using the same methodologies, "folks giving up their critical reasoning skills and following the leader".
      You can't be serious, Ursus.
      Like you do when your busted by your wife for being on the computer, yet again. You explain to her, you have no
      critical reasoning for being on the computer as much as you are and if she would intervene you would follow her out of the office.
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      Offline Fnord

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      Re: aparently, adults want to go to programs too
      « Reply #116 on: August 09, 2010, 04:04:55 PM »
      Spoken like a douche as usual Danno
      1605 | Search user’s posts
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      Offline Ursus

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      SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Victim's family seeks more details
      « Reply #117 on: August 14, 2010, 11:05:53 AM »
      The Daily Courier
      10/13/2009 10:23:00 PM

      SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Victim's family seeks more details
      By FELICIA FONSECA · The Associated Press


      A view of the Angel Valley Retreat Center Tuesday near Sedona shows a heart-shaped stone memorial on the site of last week's sweat lodge tragedy. Ross D. Franklin/The Associated Press

      SEDONA - A spokesman for the family of one of two people who died after being overcome in an Arizona sweat lodge demanded more accountability Tuesday from the man in charge of the spiritual retreat that led to the deaths.

      Self-help expert and author James Arthur Ray led a group of more than 50 people last week through a five-day program intended to push people beyond their limits. The course included a Thursday sweat lodge ceremony, which ended tragically in the deaths of Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and 40-year-old James Shore of Milwaukee.

      Nineteen other people were hurt, and one remains in critical condition.

      Tom McFeeley, Brown's cousin and family spokesman, called on Ray to assure that the participants "were not mistreated and not put in a reckless situation.

      "He was someone people believed in, people paid good money to get his advice," McFeeley said. "It's a person we all wanted to believe had our best interest in mind. Quite simply, that didn't happen."

      McFeeley also said he is concerned that Ray exhibited a "godlike complex" during the event that might have kept people from opting out of activities Ray acknowledged could cause "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

      "We need to look at this way beyond the sweat lodge," McFeeley said. "If we could understand minute by minute what happened this week, I think we'll get a much greater view on what kind of event this was and the level of danger that existed."

      Fire department reports released Tuesday show the incident wasn't the first involving a sweat lodge ceremony at the resort. Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen said his department responded to a 911 call in October 2005 about a person who was unconscious after being in a sweat lodge.

      Angel Valley resort owner Amayra Hamilton confirmed that Ray was leading the sweat ceremony during the 2005 event. Ray's spokesman declined to comment.

      No other details about the 2005 incident were immediately available.

      Meanwhile, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office continued to investigate last week's ceremony to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. Authorities said Ray has refused to speak with authorities. No charges have been filed.

      Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, has said Ray would speak when it's appropriate. He declined Tuesday to address the Brown family's concerns.

      "The facts are going to come out," he said. "We're not going to conduct our investigation in the media. We're going to let the investigative bodies do their jobs."

      Authorities say 55 to 65 people attending the program were crowded into the 415-square-foot crudely built sweat lodge during a two-hour period Thursday night. Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 for the retreat. They were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain inside for the entire two hours, authorities said.

      The participants had fasted for 36 hours as part of a personal and spiritual quest in the wilderness, then ate a breakfast buffet before entering the sweat lodge around 3 p.m. A 911 call two hours later said two people, who authorities said were Shore and Brown, had no pulse and weren't breathing.

      Autopsies on Brown and Shore were conducted, but the results are being withheld pending additional tests. Carbon monoxide poisoning was ruled out as a cause of the deaths and illnesses.

      A statement released by the family of Liz Neuman, who remains in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said she is in a coma and doctors are working to stabilize damage to multiple organs.

      "Liz is fighting hard and her family asks for everyone to keep her in their thoughts and prayers," the statement said.

      Two others remained hospitalized. Fire officials say the victims exhibited symptoms ranging from dehydration to kidney failure after sitting in the sweat lodge.

      Officials say the sweat lodge, built specifically for the five-day retreat, lacked the necessary building permit.

      Resort owners Amayra Hamilton and her husband, Michael, asked Tuesday for prayers in hopes that something positive will come out of what they say was a tragic and unexpected event. The Hamiltons said that a prayer ceremony has been conducted at the sweat lodge site, and a heart-shaped memorial has been laid with stones for Brown and Shore.

      Ray has expressed his condolences through social networking sites and said he is praying for the victims and their families.

      McFeeley said the Hamiltons have been in contact with the Brown family, but did not receive a call from Ray until Tuesday.


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      Offline Ursus

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      Comments for "...Victim's family seeks more details"
      « Reply #118 on: August 14, 2010, 02:36:44 PM »
      Comments left for the above article, "SWEAT LODGE DEATHS: Victim's family seeks more details" (by Felicia Fonseca, 10/13/2009, The Daily Courier/AP):


      Article comment by: Bill · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
        If James Arthur Ray is such a visionary, why couldn't he see the danger he placed his followers in. He should be held accountable for those two deaths.
      Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
        You got to wonder about people who would pay $9,000 to lay around in the dirt and not eat for 36 hours. How ironic that many homeless people do this minus the nine grand donation. If they want to listen to someone speak about their greatness, go to church. Sorry that people died and were injured. It just seems a little to self indulgent to me. Just go on a camping trip in the desert in the middle of the summer and for get the cooler with the food and you would have the same affect. Oh and bring a bible and pray.
      Article comment by: The Devil Guy · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
        I agree; he should be held accountable. But what the heck is wrong w/these crazies paying big bucks to sweat in flippin' Sedona? I only charge $2,000 to come and have my shower in the bathroom on hot, close the doors, and sweat away...insanity
      Article comment by: No name provided · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
        I'm not a callous or mean spirited person, so of course I say it's sad that these deaths occured. The bottom line in my humble opinion, is that we are responsible for our own actions. Why must we always find someone else to blame for our own actions? Was Jim Jones at total fault for all the deaths of his followers? I have to say no. These people had families and friends. I have heard statements from some of them that they were aware of these folks' attendance at this event and what it entailed. People die just from being in a sauna, spa, or hot tub if it is too hot and are in too long. I know, because as an ex-medic, I responded to such deaths a few times. Doesn't any of these family members or friends realize the dangers that the participants are in, if the participants themselves are not intelligent enough or are too "spiritually" diminished to be aware? Spirituality is free. It doesn't come with an extravagant price tag. Anyone that would spend this amount of money to literally sweat to death, should be guarded and closely monitored by friends and family in the first place. When I hear of these ridiculous incidents, I always have to wonder if these folks are all there in the first place. My God never wants me to put myself in unnecessary harmful situations. If yours does, or your religious leaders say it does, then you might want to check out a different religion. May you all be blessed today!
      Article comment by: ran out of air? · Posted: Wednesday, October 14, 2009
        Doing the math the structure was about 20 by 20 by 3 to 4 feet high. That's about 1400 cubic feet. Divide by 60 people gives each one about 25 cubic feet of room air to breath. That's the equivalent of a 3 foot cube to breath in 2 hours. I bet they ran out of oxygen. That would not produce carbon monoxide poising either, it's carbon dioxide that we breath out, oxygen that we consume.
      Article comment by: Judge not lest you be judged · Posted: Thursday, October 15, 2009
        It seems very much that many of you are blaming these people for being on a spiritual quest instead of just believing in your god. Maybe the reason these people were searching is that they do not see god in your behavior.
      Article comment by: jim · posted: Thursday, October 15, 2009
        Lets get real judge not. 60 people at 9 to 10 grand a pop? That should be a hint to those that are seeking God. Did you see the lodge? I made better forts than that when I was 9. I suppose believing in a God that tells you to kill as many other humans as possible is just another "quest" that should be understood and not exposed as false prophecy? Where is the common sense of it all? 9 grand to stand shoulder to shoulder in a makeshift whatever it is in a quest of spirituality while your body is void of nutrition and then sweat out every bit of hydration that remains is ludicrous. If my comment stops another insane act from another human being that would otherwise die because of it, then so be it. There are limits where one human being should step in to save another one from even religous stupidity.
      Article comment by: michael meloni · Posted: Monday, November 23, 2009
        We conduct sweat lodges as part of our Healing Circle Programs. Our weekend programs change lives, but we only charge $100 per person. We bring many people back to God who were previously "Spiritual but not Religious." Sweat Lodges are intense by nature, but ogygen is a must. We put 10 -12 folks in a 10-12 foot diameter lodge made from birch branches and native hides. IT is clear that they put too many folks into too small a space and then sealed the tarps too tight.
      http://www.livingloa.com[/list]


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      Offline Ursus

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      Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray "Frustrated and Confused"...
      « Reply #119 on: August 15, 2010, 12:19:07 PM »
      CBSnews.com · CRIMESIDER
      October 14, 2009 11:34 AM

      Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray "Frustrated and Confused" Over Angel Valley Sweat Lodge Deaths
      Posted by Edecio Martinez


      Photo: James Arthur Ray. (JamesRay.com)

      LOS ANGELES (CBS/AP) James Arthur Ray, the man who led a spiritual retreat in Arizona where two people died after being overcome in a sweat lodge, broke down in tears as he said the tragedy has left him "frustrated and confused."

      At a seminar outside Los Angeles, the self-help expert addressed the deaths of Kirby Brown, 38, of Westtown, N.Y., and James Shore, 40, of Milwaukee.

      Authorities say Brown, Shore and more than 50 other people attending the retreat near Sedona, Ariz., were crowded into a 415-square-foot sweat lodge over two hours last Thursday Oct. 9.

      Brown and Shore died, and 19 others were hurt. One remains in critical condition. Autopsy results are being withheld pending additional tests, but carbon monoxide poisoning was ruled out as a cause of the deaths and illnesses. Fire officials said the surviving victims exhibited symptoms ranging from dehydration to kidney failure.

      "This is the most difficult time I've ever faced," Ray told a crowd of about 200 at a hotel in Marina del Rey Tuesday. "I don't know how to deal with it really."

      An audience member asked Ray to describe what happened at the retreat, but he declined, saying only that he has hired his own investigative team and is cooperating with authorities.

      "We're looking for answers," he said. "I'm as frustrated and confused as other people are."

      Ray, who said he is "being tested" by the tragedy, added that he wrestled with whether to go through with Tuesday's seminar. He said it had been scheduled weeks before the Arizona retreat.

      "My advisers told me, 'Don't do that. You don't know who'll show up. They're going to eat you alive,"' he told the audience. But he said it was important for him to keep his commitments.

      "I'm grieving right now," said Ray. "I'm grieving for the families."

      The comments followed a demand earlier Tuesday from a spokesman for Brown's family for more accountability from Ray.

      Tom McFeeley, Brown's cousin and family spokesman, called on Ray to assure that the retreat's participants "were not mistreated and not put in a reckless situation."

      McFeeley also said he is concerned that Ray exhibited a "godlike complex" during the event that might have kept people from opting out of activities that Ray acknowledged could cause "physical, emotional, financial or other injuries."

      Ray's spokesman, Howard Bragman, declined Tuesday to address McFeeley's concerns.

      Fire department reports released Tuesday show the incident wasn't the first involving a sweat lodge ceremony at the resort, the Angel Valley Retreat Center. Verde Valley Fire Chief Jerry Doerksen said his department responded to a 911 call in October 2005 about a person who was unconscious after being in a sweat lodge.


      Photo: Investigators look over a "sweat lodge" on the grounds of Angel Valley Retreat Center. (AP/Tom Tingle, Arizona Republic)

      Angel Valley resort owner Amayra Hamilton confirmed that Ray was leading the sweat ceremony during the 2005 event. Ray's spokesman declined to comment.

      Meanwhile, the Yavapai County Sheriff's Office continued to investigate last week's ceremony to determine if criminal negligence played a role in the deaths or illnesses. Sheriff's spokesman Dwight D'Evelyn said Tuesday that authorities have not yet spoken with Ray.

      No charges have been filed.

      Participants paid between $9,000 and $10,000 for the retreat, and police said they were highly encouraged, but not forced, to remain inside the crudely built sweat lodge the entire two hours, authorities said.

      A statement released by the family of Liz Neuman, who remains in critical condition at the Flagstaff Medical Center, said she is in a coma and doctors are working to stabilize damage to multiple organs.

      Two others remained hospitalized.

      Officials say the sweat lodge, built specifically for the five-day retreat, lacked the necessary building permit.


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