aparently, adults want to go to programs too

[Ursus]

Yep... This comment below (from that latest collection) set off some firing neurons for me! Geezz... Another commenter mentioned that it might even be James Ray himself posting under pseudonym, though I think that possibility might be a bit far-fetched... Or, maybe not!  

• by BenjaminRamsey October 15, 2009 10:13 PM EDT

The situation with the deaths during the sweat ceremony in Arizona is certainly tragic, and I can't speak to the leader James Ray's personal integrity. But what's more tragic than the sad loss of those two people is the widespread belief that wealth is not created but only taken from others. It's called the "fixed size pie" belief, that there is only a fixed set of wealth in the world, one set "pie", and in order to have a large piece of the pie someone else has to have less. Nothing could be further from the truth!!! Almost ALL wealth is created! It's a natural offshoot of the miracle of exchange, both parties are better off (or the exchange wouldn't happen). The more business one perpetuates, the more economic growth occurs, and the better off EVERYONE is, including that person. If more people could understand how this works (and I admit it sometimes can be hard to see it), the world would be a much better place. It's part of why you never hear about anyone starving to death in America, the great wealth we've generated here, in the end, SAVES LIVES!!!

As I work to create wealth for me and my family, I don't take it away from anyone. I must offer, or exchange, MORE value than I receive, plain and simple. In order to earn a million dollars, I have to put out MORE than a million dollars worth of value. Thus the overall economy is better off. You see?

Here's a simple example: I want $1, so do some work by going into the forest and pick an apple and come back and sell it at the market for $1. Whoever buys that apple values it MORE than $1, which is why they decide it's better to give up the $1 and get the apple. Thus, in the economy, there is MORE value than there was before: the man has something worth MORE than a dollar, AND I have a dollar! If I want $100 I have to work to produce something worth MORE than $100 so that the market will gladly pay me $100 for that something. If I want $10,000 it might be hard to pick 10,000 apples, so maybe I'll come up with a plan to magnify my efforts. I could plant 100 apple trees, invent a new kind of apple picker tool, and hire 10 people to pick all the apples in a fraction of the time. They would all receive fair worker's wages they agree to, and I would get the benefit of having CREATED all the new value of all those apples to trade in the market.

The whole entire economy works like this, wealth is CREATED one dollar's worth at a time. The only time it doesn't work like this is when people TAKE, such as when they steal, or when they receive welfare checks, or when they use up community pot resources without paying for them, etc. Takers expect the government or the community to provide benefits for them, they complain a lot, and they come up with false ideas about how the rich are somehow causing them to be poor. BALONEY! The poor should THANK the rich, because without them they would be POORER than they already are! It's thanks to the richest men in history, men who CREATED LOTS OF WEALTH, that the whole economy is as good as it is. We aren't starving. We aren't dying of malaria by the thousands like in Africa. We aren't literally freezing to death or being killed off by mudslides and tsunamis like they are in the poor nations of the earth. Hurricane in Florida? We EVACUATE! We have cars! We don't stay in little mud huts to die. It's mostly thanks to all the wealth which has been CREATED over the decades and centuries by entrepreneurs and businessmen. They are our greatest saving angels.

Almost all wealth is created. We should strive to create as much as we can, for ourselves and our families, and at the same time for the overall economies of the world, which helps everyone live longer happier lives.

[Ursus]

This "JasonDaro" commenter is a real piece of work...  :clown:

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Comments left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; CBS News Crimesider), #s 61-90:


• by NewAgeRage October 19, 2009 2:05 AM EDT

Coming from someone who was deep into this New Age stuff at one time, I can really see this kind of thing happening. I read a comment from someone who had been there and he said that he was sad for the families of those who died but that he believed that they have chosen to die this way. This is the kind of garbage brain-washing that you commonly find in these types of settings. What the Secret people don't tell you is that they believe that every single thing that happens to you has been chosen by you....and that includes everything terrible. They insist that people who got raped chose to be raped. There are all sorts of sick and distorted ways of putting it. They will say things like "They signed a soul contract to be raped before they were born" or "They must have been the rapist's rapist in a past life." or "They chose it so that their soul could learn." or just the simple old "It's their karma" thing. The profound degree of cruelty, smugness, cold-heartedness, and spiritual superiority in the New Age movement was shocking to me. I had a friend who developed breast cancer and a so-called healer said to her "So what do you think you may have done to create this cancer in your life?" with a supposed loving tone of voice. This is some sick crap. I got out but not after an almost life-threatening depression. As for the guy who has no compassion for people who pay for this I can tell you that once you get sucked in it can be very confusing and hard to get out. The wealthy ones float through these programs and get special treatment from the leaders who are highly skilled at recognizing those with big cash flow and who will sign up for more future events, classes, retreats, etc...I am feeling strongly that this self help guru is sitting in meditation somewhere convincing himself that this whole thing is meant to teach something to the world and that he is the chosen messenger or "channel" for this great teaching.

• by synaya October 19, 2009 2:48 AM EDT

A MESSAGE FOR JAMES RAY since his blog is blocked for comment: The recent Sweat Lodge incident reveals 5 areas of "Disharmonic" Wealth.....1) SPIRITUAL Arrogance, 2) FINANCIAL Greed, 3) MENTAL Manipulation, 4) PHYSICAL Lack of Safety, and 5) RELATIONAL Irresponsibility. James, why did you CHOOSE to run from the scene when your loyal participants - your JRI family - needed you most? Your actions speak louder than words. You exhibited self-centered preservation and lacked being a responsible and compassionate leader in the face of adversity. I'm still in shock and I wasn't even there. As a former participant of four workshops, I stopped attending upon sensing the dark energies of greed and arrogance taking over. I'm glad I trusted my intuition. Please know I do wish you well James because, despite these words, deep inside I know you are a good man on your spiritual path of learning and maturing... and quite frankly, this incident is a MAJOR wake up call. Regarding your deleted twitter message.....What in YOU, James Arthur Ray, needs to die in order for new life to emerge? My deepest compassion and sympathy goes to the participants who trusted you and unknowingly were in harms way. Blessings to all involved on your journeys to harmonic health and healing. May truth, light and personal integrity prevail. Blessings.

• by cicibaby09 October 20, 2009 1:01 PM EDT

I've been to a James Ray event. While I believe that he is genuine in his intent to better peoples' lives, I do not agree with his tactics. The article says that participants were "encouraged" but not forced to remain in the lodge, but you should know how he "encourages" participants. His tactics are hard-nosed, over-the-top, and not respectful of the individual.

People believe in him, and tells them they ABSOLUTELY WILL NOT succeed if they do not sign up for his retreats, coaching, or buy his books. He tells his audiences that his is the ONLY way to have a successful life and if they don't follow his teachings they "do not want" success. He openly pities and publicly mocks those who leave his seminars without buying anything or leave early--"Well, we all know those who just don't want success."

For those who have shelled out $10,000 to have this man transform their lives--to anyone who "absolutely" promises success--his techniques must have worked. Having been to one of his events, I can just hear what he told his participants: "You can leave, if you want to, but you are 'THISCLOSE' to having all the success and 'Harmonic Wealth TM' you desire."

Besides, with the participants jammed in the lodge like sardines (the dismantled lodge in the photo does not look like a structure that could hold nearly 60 people), how could anyone possibly leave if they feel unwell?

What saddens me most about this tragic incident is that Ray left the state. His website says that "a friend" was staying with those injured. Why did he not stay himself? That, to me, speaks volumes.

• by susannahsss October 20, 2009 9:04 PM EDT

Wow...thank you for saying all you did. I attended one of his seminars in San Diego Aug. 2008 and so much of what he said was great. But I do agree with all you said. I paid a lot of money and was trying to look past all the pressure etc. and get something out of the weekend. I had a great time. But, he became a little dark at the end (crying and all - just dark and weird) and I chose not to attend another one. I lost two friends at that seminar and two girls went home and asked for a divorce. I got the feeling James thinks he's (or wants to be) God. I got so much out of that weekend - I now completely understand that there is truly only one God. And I am going to save a lot of money and stick with Him!!

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• by arielne October 19, 2009 1:04 PM EDT

This is very frustrating.i am a native woman who has been raised aroud ceremony. this was the result of ignorance and greed. these people were exploited by someone who was uneducated and selfish. in my culture the men and women who run sweats have earned that position, trained thoroughly to properly lead our people through ceremonies.

• by sbendana October 21, 2009 9:38 AM EDT

Very well said Synaya! I stopped going to Jame's events a year ago when he turned the last one I attended, on a pure marketing campaign, very greedy and arrogant. Thanks, Sergio.

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• by susannahsss October 20, 2009 9:05 PM EDT

I attended one of his seminars in San Diego Aug. 2008 and so much of what he said was great. I paid a lot of money and was trying to look past all the pressure etc. and get something out of the weekend. I had a great time. But, he became a little dark at the end (crying and all - just dark and weird) and I chose not to attend another one. I lost two friends at that seminar and two girls went home and asked for a divorce. I got the feeling James thinks he's (or wants to be) God. I got so much out of that weekend - I now completely understand that there is truly only one God. And I am going to save a lot of money and stick with Him!!

• by BrooklynBombshell October 22, 2009 3:35 AM EDT

Clearly then, when he goes to jail, it's because he signed a contract to do so before he came down. OK, James, time to fulfill your part in this play called life. Get your soap on a rope....

• by seeker108 October 22, 2009 12:38 PM EDT

Since James Ray's site does not accept posts, here's my response to his statement on his blog:
Mr. Ray - this is not about you but about the people you serve. It is not about your life's challenge at this time but about the people who trust you. If you are a true teacher and leader, you'd know that you are a servant. The only "right" way of action for the leader is to follow the Dharma, or the highest truth, and to act from highest integrity. By not being diligent in checking on the integrity of the sweat lodge construction and packing more people than you could reasonably and personally supervise, you compromised the integrity of your work. If you are a true Mystic, you should know that mystical power demands respect and is not forgiving of sloppiness and personal greed. Your overconfidence blinded you and shifted your priority from servicing your participants to pushing your way. While spiritual transformation does require pushing pass the limits, unskillful and unqualified guidance can kill. This is why a true teacher always asks him/herself whether what they do is truly the right way and in highest integrity, or is it a petty rationalization for a personal agenda? An oversized ego can't be further away from an authentic teacher's way. An authentic leader has the courage to look into the heart of the problem and take a clear, non-ambiguous responsibility. There are no accidents in the world of mysticism, Mr. Ray.

• by rbaldwin143 October 22, 2009 2:16 PM EDT

Why would anyone think it is okay to restrict air to sixty people inside an enclosed heated structure? What a terrible tragedy and how dare you James Ray for leading this type of event.

• by JensComments October 30, 2009 6:02 PM EDT

Perfect! Love the insight!!!

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• by fmason1 October 23, 2009 3:52 PM EDT

Well first of all this is sad and tragic to say the least.
Secondly this is an example of how weak people NEED SOMEONE or something to believe in. If these people are all about doing good then why don't they go do some good instead of going to $10k seminars.

They are all unfortunately even though good at heart very weak at mind and get manipulated. This James guy made $3M last yr selling this stuff. He left the state after the people died he is no different from all the other new age gurus. New age represents energy which we all have access to already by connecting it don't need no fancy people, tapes, dvds, rituals, nor any fancy seminars. This is no different from gangs, politics, corruption, cruelty, and injustice these people did what they did because they COULD as the weak allowed them to do so. He didn't force you in that seminar he is a capitalist just like all of us fellow Americans. We are all about money and would of done this if we could too. Instead of blaming new age gurus or other things one should point at themselves. All these people are simply very weak and this is because of religious conditioning even after they leave religions they stay weak minded by submitting to a person or persons and think they need help.

We are not communism we are capitalism and anyone is allowed to legally make money any way they can, instead of trying to stop ventures we need to stop manipulation and that starts with people's minds.

Weak minded people like to hear strong men or women talk who have the guts to say things anyone can go on stage and say stuff and people will pay you that's rewarding a person for not being scared. Last age of Pisces was the age of Iron or Faith, this "new age" is the age of Aquarius determined by the equinox of the earths spin and represents age of questioning and peace. That whole "faith" in others and "dvds" and all that is really religious dogma. If you want to be a part of the new age start depending on yourself. Not so easy is it ? So they go to people and pay thousands. It is frustrating as its a direct result of ignorance of people as well as greed. Greed is a part of all of us however, at least this guy Ray doesn't sell drugs or commit crimes. He does what he does to make money and greed is very natural and all this "dark" stuff you people are writing about is nothing but religious dogmas. This "light" and "dark" doesn't exist besides in your mind and your perception. Stop getting manipulated by these people and stop thinking they can make you money.

ONLY YOU CAN ACHIEVE WHAT YOU WANT NOT THESE CLOWNS. If they could do it for you why are they still working and putting up these seminars ?

Fellow Countrymen lets wake up and take contract of our brains then our wallets will be fine.

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 7:38 PM EST

James Arthur Ray most probably left the sweat lodge event at the instructions of his lawyer. What? You don't think he called his lawyer when this happened? Of course he must have and his lawyer gave him instructions and he most probably followed those instructions. He was obviously too shaken up to properly deal with the situation at the time.

Is that so hard to believe? Do you expect him to be superhuman? How would YOU feel under such circumstances? You would be shocked and confused, right? Not such a great time to stay and be interviewed, right?

Be logical, people. Under such shocking circumstances you would have most probably done exactly what your lawyer instructed and YOU KNOW IT!

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 7:47 PM EST

If James Arthur Ray had stayed and was cool, calm and collected you would have said that he was a heartless bastard and probably called him the Anti-Christ. If he was all shaken up you would have said that his philosophy can?t take the strain of real life situations. How could he win with you people who have always been dead set against him?

It was best he left until he could pray and get all the best guidance possible before he officially reacted.

Any wise person knows it?s best to relax and fully calm down before you make any very important decisions in a situation like this. If you are emotionally stressed you just may say or do the wrong thing without even realizing it and the press will pounce on you like a crazed demon.

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• by fmason1 October 23, 2009 4:02 PM EDT

"god" must be very lonely as he is only one and all alone sucks to be him even a bum can get friends...dont you people every try to think about that concept of the "one" "god" you think a being popped out of no where and will remain forever and has one son hahaha who came out of no where and became a human and came to get killed ....only weak minded fools believe that crap....

no one gave him birth nor will he die ..he must hate his existence in such a lonely and weak manner.. because the last time I checked the world is in chaos everywhere and its definitely not up to people's idea of "Mr. God" to help. Religions were written for a totally different age and smart people can even see that as they can uncover facts that were hidden in these books for so long that the old man just couldn't understand.

Sad part of it is that people are too weak to think for themselves and need someone else to "help" them. This country wasn't based on that crap and it became weak when religions took control.

This guy should be convicted of Murder in the 2nd degree as he caused these actions by his ignorance and all his assistants involved should get punished too. That $3M he got paid to "help" people in 2008 should go to these families and others hes robbed.


God=energy
energy=god
E=MC^2
God=MC^2
energy can not be created nor destroyed, like Gods explanation in books
God is potential energy and we are kinetic energy its as simple as it gets and i shouldn't go further or it will overwhelm minds.

I hope my posts help people I know its not for all but if it helps 1 or 2 people learn I will be happy.

I know the people who know what I am talking about here will agree.

• by mjnaus October 23, 2009 6:46 PM EDT

This Arizona sweat lodge ceremony was another "hidden death trap"(the title of my book) which can be researched on amazon.com. Safety standards for hyperthermia were nowhere in place. My brother drowned in a hotel jetted bathtub from hyperthermia because the water temperature when he climbed in was 114 degrees fahrenheit. There were no safety standards in the hotel room warning of the impending hazard of hyperthermia due to an extended exposure in this tub. Those participants were in the sweat lodge too long.

• by believerinHim October 26, 2009 11:39 PM EDT

There are many tragedies here, including fmason1. It's obvious that someone who is so determined to disprove God exists is simply insecure of himself and his eternity. That's ok, faith takes a strong person and a personal relationship with our Creator. Many like you have found their salvation after years or even a lifetime of defiance, such defiance being so lengthy simply for attention. It's there for you as it is for all who accept Him in their lives! I wish you well in whichever you choose, hoping of course you at least seek Him earnestly before completely writing Him off.

• by JensComments October 30, 2009 5:47 PM EDT

I would have to agree that BenjaminRamsey may be a cover for James Ray.

What is really scary is the comment I copy/pasted from his post:

"But what's more tragic than the sad loss of those two people (three People Benjamin) is the widespread belief that wealth is not created but only taken from others."

Are you for real? Three people perishing at the hands of James Ray and his Team is less tragic then the belief systems people have about how wealth is created in their lives.

According to Bunn, "Ray was standing about 10 feet away, watching. He didn't do anything, he didn't participate in helping. He did nothing. He just stood there."

It is reported James did not stay at the Spiritual Warrior retreat to lend a hand in the chaos he created, but headed back home to get ready for his next Harmonic Wealth event. This is why I think James did post the comment under the pseudo BenjaminRamsey. His ACTIONS show he was more concerned with his next wealth event, he was CREATING, rather than sticking around and being of service.

I attended one of James Ray's free events in Orlando Florida and purchased his Harmonic Wealth Home Study Course. I am a Certified Hypnotist, NLP Practitioner, and Life Creation Coach. I have promoted James Ray on my websites and to my clients. I will no longer align myself with a man that believes doing nothing, walking away, and lawyering up was the best he could offer what he calls ?HIS FAMILY? that were sick and dying! Good L.U.C.K. with that reality...Living Under Correct Knowledge...I don't think so.

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 3:24 PM EST

A lot more people perished by horrendous torture because they followed the teachings of Jesus. Let's see you all badmouth Jesus for that! C'mon, people were tortured to death. Many were crucified and were up on the cross for about THREE-DAYS instead of Jesus who was on the cross for about three-hours. If you have bad things to say about James Arthur Ray for the three people who died let's all see if you have the guts to badmouth Jesus for the, possibly, thousands who died because they adhered to His teachings! Compared to all those who died horribly torturous deaths following the teachings of Jesus what happened at that James Arthur Ray sweat lodge was next to nothing.

Now, I'm not trying to say that James Arthur Ray is Jesus returned. If he was, chances are, THOUSANDS would now be dead instead of three. According to prophecy, when Jesus comes back He's not going to be the nice guy He was in His last incarnation.

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• by yellow_haired_yankton October 31, 2009 1:40 AM EDT

I am a proud native american and take full offence as to what this group of individuals has done! Being Native I have gone through sweat lodge, and never have I, nor would I believe in a man that tries to teach wealth through sweat. Sweat is one of our most holiest rituals. To go through sweat, one must be prepared to expierence new and sometimes challenging moments, but by no means are we EVER encouraged to stay the entire time! Truthfully during sweat with the proper guidence, (Either a medicine man/woman or shaman), you are informed "should you feel the need to leave the sweat speak up, and a door (opening of the entrance) will occur". The reason for leaving is that, if you should become overwhelmed by the heat or anything else that may affect you, your prayer has been heard by the creator or GOD (to those of different religion).You would do no good by trying to prove, to either yourself or another, that you can "make it through". For a person that has no regard for the spiritual aspect of the sweat to do such an atrocity as to pose as a person that should be followed, because of wealth, deserves to be handled by the creator himself! I am in no position to judge the individual but will say here and now," James Ray you have misused our sacred ceremony to better yourself at the expense of those who have reached out to you in guidence.Wwith this knowledge and belief you shall come into your own demise!" By no means do I discredit the people involved that have lost their lives and been returned to the creator. I believe that we all shall learn from this one mans misuse of such a sacred ceremony and the loss of the innocents that had occured. To all my brothers and sisters, anties and uncles, grandmothers and grandfathers, mothers, and fathers, I ask that if you find a person doing something so mischievous as to prey on the needs of a person that may need the guidence of a REAL teacher, STOP THEM! There are many REAL guides in life, but one you have to pay for their knowledge, is not a guide but more a prankster (Coyote or Spider in many Native beliefs). Pranksters will harm you, while guides will help you learn from within. To the families that have been hurt or affected by this group or man I say "To all my relatives I pray, To the North, South, West, East, mother earth and the creator, watch over the people harmed by this one mans and groups ignorance!, Aho!"

• by darbunny October 31, 2009 2:56 AM EDT

YOU HIT THE NAIL ON THE HEAD YHF!!!! YOU PUT THAT BAD KARMA OUT THERE YOU SHOULD EXPECT BAD KARMA BACK!!!! HE IS A MURDERER N THE WORST FORM OF A TEACHER!!! THE CREATOR WILL SURELY TAKE CARE OF HIM IN THE HEREAFTER!!!!I AM SURE EVERY NATIVE AMERICAN OUT THERE IS ASHAMED OF WHAT HE HAS DONE!!!!!AS I AM MYSELF!!I FEEL FOR THOSE FAMILIES AS WELL....THEY ARE IN A FAR BETTER PLACE THAN WHAT TOOK THEM THERE!!!!

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 3:12 PM EST

You had better hope the "BAD KARMA" you have put out in your post doesn't come back around and swallow you whole, Mr Holier than Thou.

You have no proof that he is a murderer!

You had better stop slandering the man or the (((BAD KARMA))) you are sending out will indeed come back around exploding into your miserable life!

If you continue to ignore all the good James Arthur Ray has done and jump to conclusions against him without knowing all the facts you are dooming yourself with your own BAD KARMA!

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• by LaurahLMT October 31, 2009 1:49 PM EDT

As a person who loves the Inipi and has gone to legit ceremonies many times, it is apparent that this is an unethical, uninformed man who is greedy and is unfit to run a sweat...the number of rounds, the fact that it costs money, the plastic tarp used (it does not breathe and therefore is dangerous), the number of people in the structure all point to fraud...it is the water pourer's responsibility to know when the door is to be opened, how each person is doing, when someone needs to leave the lodge...all responsibility is in their hands...
this man is only out for money. He is not a holy man. He is a fake who by overfilling the lodge and charging money let alone not knowing how to run a sweat...I've personally never been in a lodge ceremony where there is more than five rounds and only occasionally have been at ones that had five rounds.
You wanna sweat and talk to spirit? We have plenty of lodges here in Oklahoma...the price? If you have the means maybe a dish for the potluck afterwards, and maybe a pouch of tobacco for the water pourer, if you do not have the means, you are still more than welcome.
I've never seen money exchanged, never seen someone get ill...and if you need to leave the lodge the door is opened and you may leave.
This man hurts all who know the truth and goodness in these ceremonies when done in the proper ways. I was talking to some friends in a lodge last weekend...this man is a murderer...a man who is dark of heart and spirit. It is a shame so many believe him...BTW setting intentions on greed and vanity is not praying in a good way...we pray for the people not on monetary gains...prayer said in selfish ways borders on witchcraft and is ethically wrong. The lodge is not non-christian BTW...it is the same God (who else is The Creator?), and some ceremonies are held at Christian churches even...I know Ministers who also are keepers of lodges.
I pray for strength for the families who lost loved ones. I pray for the people to see the truth and not fear the Inipi but to respect it for what it is really and not this sacrilege that this greedy many made it. I pray for this selfish man, if he cannot change may he be kept from hurting our people anymore.
Aho Metaque Oyasin!

• by KThundercloud November 4, 2009 5:41 PM EST

For the record, Natives NEVER sell our spirituality. Charging 8 to 10 grand just verifies this guy is a hoax that has stolen our heritage, and unfortunately, incorrectly. At best this man is guilty of reckless endangerment. So, why hasn't he been arrested? Had it been some not so rich person doing this same thing, they would have been tried and convicte by now. Why was he allowed to run from the scene of his crime, and twitter away? Justice for his victims MUST be sought. He is nothing but a myrderer. For anyone considering any type of Native American ceremony, remember we don't sell it, we share it.

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 2:59 PM EST

How much money James Arthur Ray charges is not the issue. He is not forcing anyone to pay it. The issue here is what he does with the money. That is the issue he must deal with as he faces eternity. It is not my business OR YOURS to play God and judge the man. We don't know all the facts and would do well to wish him all the very best so that all the very best will come back around for us

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• by JasonDaro November 5, 2009 4:44 PM EST

*I would like to share a post I just created about this matter:

To me:

A Winner is someone who is fully prepared to face eternity with a clear conscience

A Loser is someone who is not fully prepared to face eternity with a clear conscience

The ignorant automatically assume that if a person has a lot of money they are automatically a ?winner?. In my view it is indeed possible for a person to be a billionaire and still be a loser. How you make your money is more important, from the eternal aspects, than how much money you have.

A Winner is extremely grateful for the wonderful things in his life and builds a better life founded on gratitude and appreciation for all the wonderful things that have been entrusted to him. He regularly DEMONSTRATES his gratitude and appreciation by striving to take excellent care of all the wonderful things entrusted to him

In Contrast

A Loser tends to gloss over all the wonderful things in his life with an attitude that they are not wonderful enough. He tends to moan and complain about what he doesn?t have or like and, through the process, attracts and manifests more of what he doesn?t have and doesn?t like.

A Winner is truly happy for those who are successful in life. Even if they are more successful than he personally is. A Winner rejoices over the happy victories of others

In Contrast

A Loser is secretly jealous of those who he feels are more successful than he is. He says bad things about them behind their backs and secretly wishes them ill. By doing so he sets up a universal pattern to attract the essence of all the bad things he wishes for others into his life

A Winner does not rejoice over the misfortunes of others and NEVER jumps to bad conclusions about someone without knowing all the facts

In Contrast

A Loser is always ready to rejoice over the misfortunes of others. Without knowing the facts he spreads all kinds of bad rumors and sets himself up for disaster in the process. Losers don?t care about the good a man like James Arthur Ray has done. They gloss over all the good, just as they gloss over the good in their lives. They make accusations without foundation. I can ask them to state three of the main things about the philosophy of James Arthur Ray that they disagree with and they have no answer. They will label such a man as a fraud without even knowing what they are talking about.

So, I am not now specifically calling any member here a loser, but if the shoe fits?well?remember that it?s all just my opinion and opinions are like farts. Everyone has them.

I would indeed like you to straighten me out here if you feel I am wrong. I am always ready to upgrade my personal views. If I am wrong I am man enough to openly admit it. ARE YOU?

• by JasonDaro November 5, 2009 5:52 PM EST

From what little I have studied into this matter, James Arthur Ray has held this same type of warrior seminar for the last 7 years with no incident. You who rashly accuse him of being a murderer would believe that he would deliberately murder the participants of his sweat lodge ceremony? To what end? You think he would deliberately attempt to destroy all the good he has done? Where in his books do you find him to be that crazy?

It is possible that someone put something in the water that was poured over the hot rocks in order to do harm. You should not just blindly rule this possibility out.

If you would call James Arthur Ray a fraud I now openly challenge YOU to share with us three of the main things about his philosophy that you consider fraudulent. If you cannot do so you are making slanderous allegations and YOU should be SUED for doing so!

LET?S ALL SEE THE THREE THINGS JAMES ARTHUR RAY TEACHES THAT HAS YOU CONVINCED HE IS A FRAUD!

Time to put up and prove to us all just how wise you really are!

Remember: standard church membership requires that members give 10% of their income. Keep this in mind before you would fault James Arthur Ray for the price of his seminars.

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 3:02 AM EST

Three reasons James Arthur Ray is a wise man worth listening to:

Quotes by James Arthur Ray ...

"Energy flows where attention goes." -- James Arthur Ray

"In your life's defining moments there are two choices - you either step forward in faith and power or you step backward into fear." -- James Arthur Ray

"Money won't ever make you happy, nor was it ever meant to. Happiness comes from within. Money at best will make you more comfortable." -- James Arthur Ray

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 6:05 PM EST

You people thought you were so big and tough ganging up together against the character of James Arthur Ray. Now you have gone silent. I guess I'm tougher than all of you combined!

I'm not afraid of you!

Let see three things James Arthur Ray has stated that obviously make him out to be a fraud.

PUT UP OR SHUT UP!

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 6:12 PM EST

You people are too much. You completely ignore the good James Arthur Ray has done in the past and make all kinds of slanderous claims without knowing what you are talking about.

YOU SHOULD BE SUED FOR SLANDER!

And for you who think that James Arthur Ray would deliberately murder people at his seminar...well...you should have the dosage on your psyche drugs increased.

Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.

[Eliscu2]

:poison:

[DannyB II]

Yep... This comment below (from that latest collection) set off some firing neurons for me! Geezz... Another commenter mentioned that it might even be James Ray himself posting under pseudonym, though I think that possibility might be a bit far-fetched... Or, maybe not!  

• by BenjaminRamsey October 15, 2009 10:13 PM EDT

The situation with the deaths during the sweat ceremony in Arizona is certainly tragic, and I can't speak to the leader James Ray's personal integrity. But what's more tragic than the sad loss of those two people is the widespread belief that wealth is not created but only taken from others. It's called the "fixed size pie" belief, that there is only a fixed set of wealth in the world, one set "pie", and in order to have a large piece of the pie someone else has to have less. Nothing could be further from the truth!!! Almost ALL wealth is created! It's a natural offshoot of the miracle of exchange, both parties are better off (or the exchange wouldn't happen). The more business one perpetuates, the more economic growth occurs, and the better off EVERYONE is, including that person. If more people could understand how this works (and I admit it sometimes can be hard to see it), the world would be a much better place. It's part of why you never hear about anyone starving to death in America, the great wealth we've generated here, in the end, SAVES LIVES!!!

As I work to create wealth for me and my family, I don't take it away from anyone. I must offer, or exchange, MORE value than I receive, plain and simple. In order to earn a million dollars, I have to put out MORE than a million dollars worth of value. Thus the overall economy is better off. You see?

Here's a simple example: I want $1, so do some work by going into the forest and pick an apple and come back and sell it at the market for $1. Whoever buys that apple values it MORE than $1, which is why they decide it's better to give up the $1 and get the apple. Thus, in the economy, there is MORE value than there was before: the man has something worth MORE than a dollar, AND I have a dollar! If I want $100 I have to work to produce something worth MORE than $100 so that the market will gladly pay me $100 for that something. If I want $10,000 it might be hard to pick 10,000 apples, so maybe I'll come up with a plan to magnify my efforts. I could plant 100 apple trees, invent a new kind of apple picker tool, and hire 10 people to pick all the apples in a fraction of the time. They would all receive fair worker's wages they agree to, and I would get the benefit of having CREATED all the new value of all those apples to trade in the market.

The whole entire economy works like this, wealth is CREATED one dollar's worth at a time. The only time it doesn't work like this is when people TAKE, such as when they steal, or when they receive welfare checks, or when they use up community pot resources without paying for them, etc. Takers expect the government or the community to provide benefits for them, they complain a lot, and they come up with false ideas about how the rich are somehow causing them to be poor. BALONEY! The poor should THANK the rich, because without them they would be POORER than they already are! It's thanks to the richest men in history, men who CREATED LOTS OF WEALTH, that the whole economy is as good as it is. We aren't starving. We aren't dying of malaria by the thousands like in Africa. We aren't literally freezing to death or being killed off by mudslides and tsunamis like they are in the poor nations of the earth. Hurricane in Florida? We EVACUATE! We have cars! We don't stay in little mud huts to die. It's mostly thanks to all the wealth which has been CREATED over the decades and centuries by entrepreneurs and businessmen. They are our greatest saving angels.

Almost all wealth is created. We should strive to create as much as we can, for ourselves and our families, and at the same time for the overall economies of the world, which helps everyone live longer happier lives.

Ursus where are the articles that praise this man, did we lose them by mistake? Hhhhmmmmm.........

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Same place as Ed Gein's fan club.

[DannyB II]

Same place as Ed Gein's fan club.

Man that dude was spooky, can't believe you would even think of him.

[Ursus]

Ursus where are the articles that praise this man, did we lose them by mistake? Hhhhmmmmm.........

Nope. I guess there aren't any. At least not in the main stream media.

Myself, I would looooovee posting examples of hardcore kool-aid guzzlers sousing it up. I guess those folk keep kinda quiet once their brethren-in-spirit start dropping off like flies ... on the spiritual warrior barbecue of life! Can't say that I blame them.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

[Ursus]

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

Ah, Pile, but Danny is a Spiritual Warrior... He did the New Warrior Training Adventure.  

That is, at least one of the personages who posts under Danny's name claims to have done so...

[Pile of Dead Kids]

He also dragged a girl behind his car, which probably makes him about average for the participants.

[DannyB II]

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.

[Pile of Dead Kids]

Ah, so people self-Darwinating is normal. Okay. Carry on, then.

Hey, did you know that sitting around and having a chat at the lip of an extra-large, always-running meatgrinder is therapeutic?

[Ursus]

Some more over-the-top vehemence offered by the Jason Daro character, also some interesting material quoted from one of the police interviews re. folks' possibly conscious attempts to have "out of body experiences" during James Ray's retreats...

-------------- • -------------- • --------------

Comments left for the above article, "Sweat Lodge Death Investigation Turns to Self-Help Guru James Arthur Ray" (by Neil Katz; Oct. 12, 2009; CBS News Crimesider), #s 91-118:


• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 6:17 PM EST

And just in case you are thinking that I am actually James Arthur Ray you are dead wrong. James Arthur Ray is much nicer than I am. I am not the type who puts up with crap from slanderous people like you.

That's a very BIG DIFFERENCE!

Let's all see three aspects of James Arthur Ray's philosophy that prove he is secretly a fraud with murderous intent.

HINT:

You won't find any!

• by JasonDaro November 6, 2009 6:39 PM EST

You people remind of that incident with the Beatles. Back in England John Lennon had stated that the Beatles were more popular than Jesus. Paul stated that John said this in a way to indicate that the church should be doing more to promote Jesus. That is was not right that the Beatles should be more popular than Jesus. The British press just kind of shrugged it off.

Then the American Christians got a hold of the interview. They didn't care about the facts of the matter and the context in which John Lennon made the statement. All they saw was a opportunity to destroy the Beatles and they started circulating rumors that John Lennon stated that The Beatles were better than Jesus. All the Christians cared about was SLANDER! Truth, in this matter, was not what they wanted. They wanted to destroy and so they took the quote of John Lennon out of context and spread rumors to destroy The Beatles.

THAT'S JUST LIKE WHAT YOU PEOPLE ARE TRYING TO DO TO JAMES ARTHUR RAY!

You don't care about the facts. You are making allusions to him being like Jim Jones. You don't care AT ALL about the good he has done in the past.

YOU SHOULD BE ASHAMED OF YOURSELVES!

But, obviously, you people are beyond feeling shame for your guilt.

And you would try to convince me that the human race deserves anything more than extinction as a species? Sorry, I just don't see it. The scenario in that 2012 movie soon coming out is better than most of you OBVIOUSLY deserve.

• by 281ballaz November 7, 2009 7:11 PM EST

Telling the public that the human race needs to be extinct and die out in 2012 is not convincing the world of a love for humanity, but a possible preoccupation with nihilism. The Maya people do not appreciate
their culture being misrepresented either. The psyche drugs reference is a sneaky attack on those who are mentally ill, as well as an indirect disparaging comment to cast doubt on the viewpoints of anyone who would disagree with your stated opinions. If someone wishes to defend someone and stand on moral high-ground then they should at least be civil. Here is a word of wisdom: Matthew 6:19. "But amass for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust does corrupt, and where thieves do not break through nor steal."

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 1:55 AM EST

I just state the truth. There is no indication I see that the human race deserves anything other than extinction as a species. They are a spreading cancer raping, poisoning and destroying practically every wonderful thing in their path and if something does not stop them they will be spreading their diseases throughout the galaxy.

It's the truth and, in your heart, you know it!

Your precious scientists, who you and your kind admired, exploded hydrogen bombs 10 or 20 times more powerful than the ones on Hiroshima and Nagasaki miles UNDERGROUND. Those scientists who were certain those bombs would not eventually cause catastrophic earthquakes were worse than mentally ill. They were stark, raving insane! They should have been locked away in an insane asylum before they were allowed to explode those powerful hydrogen bombs miles below the Earth. Now the earthquakes are getting more powerful and frequent, as any relatively wise person could easily predict. You people haven?t seen the worst of them yet.

The psychiatrists who did not have those scientists locked away as insane are EVEN MORE INSANE!

Of course, you are probably so brainwashed that you won?t realize this even as you are dying in a 2012 movie type of disaster.

Oh well?.

I suggest you enjoy your lives before the bane of your scientists bears its inevitable fruit. Oh, worse than the earthquakes off the coast of Samoa and in Asia are on the way alright. Bet on it!

And YOU who condemn a person like James Arthur Ray without evaluating all the evidence deserve better? I don?t see it. You Christians like to lay a guilt trip on the world. Well, the condemnation you would bring onto others is going to backfire on you.

You and your kind went to church on Sunday, said ?Jesus forgive us?, cleared your conscience then went back to work breaking all your treaties to the Native Americans on Monday.

YOUR DAY IS COMING!!!

I should tell you what to do with your Bible verses

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 2:06 AM EST

You Christians seem to thing that Jesus was always ?civil? when He presented the truth. The evidence does not tell that story. All indications are that Jesus WAS NOT CIVIL when he told the hypocrite religious leaders just what He thought of them. For about 30 years Jesus was civil. Then the Holy Spirit came upon them and MADE HIM tell those people the truth. Since Jesus had no electrical PA system He obviously had to SHOUT to be heard by all the people who followed him. Yes, when Jesus insulted the hypocrite religious leaders chances are you Christians would be extremely shocked to see just how angry Jesus was; and He had every right to be angry with them.

So you keep that in mind before you judge me as not being civil enough when presenting the truth. Chances are I am extremely mild compared to Jesus when He got angry and whipped the money changers.

I just want to make certain you people realize that I am NOT James Arthur Ray. I think the way I present myself makes that very clear, don?t you?

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 2:19 AM EST

This incident with James Arthur Ray has made me more determined than ever to NEVER be in a position of having people buy any book I would produce or follow me. Just in case God has any ideas I want to make absolutely certain I make it clear to the entire universe that I will NEVER be good enough to lead any group of people anywhere! I believe most of what I have heard James Arthur Ray teach, but when I present the same information people tend to automatically reject it and that is just fine with me.

So, if you feel I am too arrogant I am grateful. May I always be too arrogant to hold workshops, seminars and/or be chosen to lead the people out of Israel. May God choose YOU instead. Ha!

[/list]
• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 1:07 PM EST

To the Native Americans viewing this forum I offer a sincere apology for what the Christian White Man and his hypocrite religion has done to you and your culture. I would not mention anything except this holier than thou apparent Christian doesn?t think I am civil enough. I am too honest for his liking.

After many years of study (for a time I had 7 translations of the Bible) I have now come to the conclusion that there is more than enough room in the universe for a different heaven devoted to all the predominantly righteous people of different beliefs. There?s enough room for a Buddhist heaven, a Muslim heaven, a Native American red man heaven and a heaven for every predominantly righteous person on Earth.

Do not let these self-righteous hypocrite Christians trick you into thinking that the good you do is not good enough. The good you do is more than good enough. Keep doing even more good, so that your conscience does not condemn you.

Make no mistake about this: those who ask Jesus to forgive them and persist in doing their hypocrite evil are in for quite a shock when they die.

Do good and good will return to you according to Universal Law

• by JasonDaro November 8, 2009 11:22 PM EST

What I see about you people is you don't realize that James Arthur Ray was sharing with people WHAT (((HE))) DOES to be at his best and extremely successful. You act as though he was making people do things he would not dare do to himself. Unless I am mistaken, he was RIGHT THERE sharing his best ideas and actions towards success.

Obviously, he assumed everyone there would be strong enough to endure what he endures. Apparently he based that assumption on the fact that he had held that same type of sweat lodge ceremony for the last SEVEN YEARS with no bad incident. Now, if this was his FIRST sweat lodge ceremony of this type that might very well be different. To hold such an event for SEVEN FRIGGIN YEARS with no bad incident makes all the difference.

Now, I don't know if the sweat lodges of his in the past were as big as this one. Chances are NEITHER DO YOU who judge him guilty without knowing all the facts.

However, REMEMBER that James Arthur Ray was not asking people to do things that he himself would not do AND they were not being forced to pay the fee for the seminar.

I suggest you keep this in mind before you blindly condemn the man as a murderer.

• by CrystalGingras November 23, 2009 4:44 PM EST

Make sure if you are attending a "Sweat Lodge", or Native American Ceremony, that the "Leader" is taught by a traditional leader, that they are strong, honest, and practice the traditional ways. That you may offer him sacred tobacco, that they are a pipe carrier, and one is present and offered at Ceremony, that there is no money involved, and this person leading the Ceremony shall know when you need help, or a door opened, or water at the moment you do without words, I hope that the people sacrificed in this wooden, life-changing dome, that has been called a Sweat Lodge can move on in a good-way and help to save the lives, time and in this case, money of many others. Do not pay money for any Native American Ceremonies. At most, the people will pitch in and pay for travel expenses for an elder to come from another state or Canada, but traditionally you offer sacred tobacco, or other Medicines such as sage, sweetgrass and water. Love to the thousands hurt, angered and loved ones mourning. There are many Native American Elders alive and the culture is not dead. People are just informed and feel that this is the only way to experince, or to change thier life. There is tradition and there is a reason why it exists. Crystal Gingras. Wichita, KS.

• by belgianwaffle February 8, 2010 1:30 PM EST

I totally agree with the fact that we need to look at the evidence before making any judgements. To what I have heard so far, and forgive me but I live in Europe and do not get the news as you guys do back in the US, is that out of the 55 people or so who attended that retreat, and after being told the risks of participating in the sweat lodge ceremony, 1) they signed a waver,2)one participant chose not to take part in it, 3) 20 of them came out of the sweat lodge, and 4) 5 of them chose to get back in. 6) It was a tent, not a room with a locked door...and finally, that guy was not pointing a gun at them. Added to that, these people were educated adults. I am still waiting to find out the rest of it but based on these first pieces of information...at no time did he force anyone to stay in nor to even participate.So at what point should he be considered a criminal? I am a 39 year old mom, and have been studying martial arts for as long as I can remember. My grand masters come from Japan and Korea...they always push us behond our limits. But regardless of how much respect I have for each of them, I never do anything I don't feel ready to do. Added to that, there were 55 people in that tent. When the first one passed out, why didn't the others do something if they knew something was wrong? If you look at that...everybody is as guilty as James ray! Anyway, many questions need to be answered and we all need to wait and see what will come out in court. But I do feel very sorry for the three people who died, and for their families. May they rest in peace!

• by JasonDaro February 27, 2010 3:10 AM EST

In forum after forum I encounter the ignorant who blindly claim that James Arthur Ray is a charlatan, fraud, scam artist. Well, I feel it is time for you supposed ?experts? to put this matter to rest. I feel it?s time for YOU to review Mr Ray?s DVD Harmonic Wealth and establish, once and for all, that James Arthur Ray is indeed a charlatan scam artist. It should be no problem for you ?wise guys? to make it clear point by point just how Mr Ray is a charlatan fraud. It should be no problem for you to do this at all, right? You are the experts, right? You can clearly see the truth the ignorant can?t, right? You are among the Super Wise Superheros of the ignorant. So, let?s all see your evaluation point by point. I?m on the edge of my seat!

    1

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How about I give you a clue before you start. You?re not going to find ANY EVIDENCE in the DVD Harmonic Wealth that James Arthur Ray is a charlatan, fraud.

Next you will be required to logically explain how a person can die of dehydration in twenty-minutes when the person is?

surrounded by water!

That should be easy enough for you hot shots, right? Face it. There is only ONE WAY people can die of dehydration while surrounded by water and that is if?

THEY DON?T DRINK THE WATER!!!

It should not be James Arthur Ray?s responsibility to know when people are dying of thirst and refuse to drink water.

THAT IS THEIR RESPONSIBILITY AND YOU KNOW IT!

• by Green582 March 19, 2010 3:40 PM EDT

People...you need to be aware that this "JasonDaro" person is also on many other sites about James Arthur Ray..."Lee Kuan", aka "LeeMajorMinor", aka "Lee Majorbig", aka "JasonDaro".....he cuts & pastes the same messages over and over...he has been banned form NYM site for rude,offensive, and threatening posts.....your best bet will be to ignore him....

• by JasonDaro March 19, 2010 9:57 PM EDT

Can't take the challenge so you try to change the subject

And what about this:

http://www.thoughts.com/forums/showthread.php?t=32971[/list]
• by JasonDaro March 20, 2010 12:46 AM EDT

Tell us, if you were in a dark sweat lodge ceremony and someone passed out right next to you wouldn't you do your best to help them? OF COURSE YOU WOULD! You wouldn't just leave them there. If you have any decency in you at all you would do your best to help and ask others to help you if you needed it.

So, how about these people at the sweat lodge who stated that people were passing out and no one was helping them. What possible excuse could they have for not helping those people? None that I can see. How about you? Can you ?see? better than I?

They already missed their opportunity to say that JRI would not let them help people who passed out in the sweat lodge. It?s too late to fall back on that lame excuse.

• by JasonDaro March 20, 2010 8:37 PM EDT

INTOXICATED JRI EMPLOYEES RESPONSIBLE FOR THREE DEATHS IN SEDONA

For about seven years, I believe, James Arthur Ray held these sweat lodge workshops with minor, acceptably understandable, incidents. There was one MAJOR difference at the Sedona sweat lodge workshop James Arthur Ray held in 2009:

There are rumors going around that a number of key JRI employees decided to have a little party and were intoxicated and on drugs while they were supposed to be fully sober and ready to help any and all people in the Sedona sweat lodge who needed help. This is why they were negligent in doing the jobs THEY WERE PAID TO DO!! It was THEIR JOB, not James Arthur Ray?s, to make certain everything was safe with the sweat lodge and running smoothly. Intoxicated JRI employees were careless in the administration of the duties THEY WERE PAID TO DO. As a result three people died and a number of people were hospitalized.

James Arthur Ray was sent to jail because of THEIR CRIMINAL NEGLIGENCE. Soon it will become public knowledge.

All I can say is that James Arthur Ray went to jail for something he did not do. THESES JRI EMPLOYEES are soon going to jail for their intoxicated criminal negligence that resulted in three deaths!

• by JasonDaro March 23, 2010 7:10 PM EDT

ANGEL VALLEY DESTROYS THE SWEAT LODGE

From the PDF file called The White Paper No 1 Page 4

http://jamesray.com/docs/White_Paper_No._1.PDF

?2 The reasons for this tragic accident may never be known, in part because we understand that Angel Valley subsequently destroyed the sweat lodge structure and coverings and buried the stones used in the ceremony. The loss of this critical environmental information may render determining the exact cause of death impossible, and the loss of this critical evidence from any ?crime scene? would itself undermine and criminal charges against Mr. Ray.?

MY RESPONSE:

WHAT?? The authorities investigating this case did not confiscate exhibit A???

The yokels in charge of this criminal investigation are going to have a very difficult time explaining to the judge why they did not confiscate EXHIBIT A, in this Sedona investigation, and allowed the OBVIOUSLY GULITY PARTY which is ANGEL VALLEY to destroy the evidence.

ANGEL VALLEY constructed that sweat lodge, not James Arthur Ray, and Angel Valley apparently destroyed the evidence OBVIOUSLY because they knew if they did not THEY would be proven the guilty party in this criminal investigation!

Can you imagine what the media would have said if James Arthur Ray was caught destroying exhibit A in the Sedona criminal investigation? We would still be hearing the repercussions all over the media. So, you who are so vocal about guilt in this matter consider that ANGEL VALLEY destroyed the evidence. Why? Because THEY are obviously the guilty party in the Sedona tragedy. If they were completely innocent in this matter they would NOT have destroyed exhibit A in this criminal investigation.

Those in charge of this criminal investigation are going to really get in trouble for not confiscating that evidence. You can bet they will! It?s going to be very (((VERY))) embarrassing for them as they try to explain why they did not confiscate the evidence and allowed the obviously guilty party, in this tragedy (Angel Valley), to destroy that evidence.

It?s going to be brutal! I hope they televise the trial so we can all watch those idiots trying to explain to the judge why they did not confiscate exhibit A as evidence and allowed Angel Valley to destroy it.[/list]
• by JasonDaro March 25, 2010 12:57 PM EDT

Angel Valley knew what might be the consequences if anyone died using the sweat lodge THEY CONSTRUCTED. If they felt such a sweat lodge was too big THEY SHOULD NOT HAVE CONSTRUCTED IT!

So, to protect themselves they MUST have had people there to supervise its safe usage. Rumors have it that key people from Angel Valley and among the JRI employees had a little party and were intoxicated. This is the main reason they were negligent in their duties. Three people died as a result, James Arthur Ray went to jail for THEIR NEGLIGENT CRIME. Mr Ray lost his company and I wouldn?t be surprised if Angel Valley soon files for bankruptcy.

Those who were intoxicated and negligent in their important duties to help the people in the sweat lodge should be on trial, not James Arthur Ray!

• by Green582 April 16, 2010 8:27 AM EDT

Lee Kuan is JasonDaro...he uses many other identities in many different forums and web site..LeeMajorMinor, Joseph Larch, LeeMajorBig....this is Lee Kuan...he has been banned from many forums.....offensive language, and threatening posts to other posters.....

• by JasonDaro May 21, 2010 5:15 PM EDT

What YOU don't understand is that the information was out there that people have been injured at his previously held sweat lodge workshops. If (((YOU))) are considering spending close to 10,000 dollars at his workshop it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to do the research. Once you find out that people have been injured in the past it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to decide whether or not you want to take YOUR chances, pay the money and sign the liability waiver. Once you do, it is YOUR RESPONSIBILITY to get out of the sweat lodge and STAY OUT if you feel you can't take the heat.

A New American Axiom:

If you can't take the heat, STAY OUT OF THE SWEAT LODGE!!

When you sign a liability waiver it is a matter of honor for you to keep the promise you made when you signed it. Only the dishonorable will try to get out of such an agreement they have signed. The dishonorable may win the legal case, but THEY DESERVE TO BURN IN HELL!!!!

• by Green582 June 12, 2010 6:23 PM EDT

JasonDaro...
....you are as fake as Ray....

"Crazy Horse says:
May 31st, 2010 at 7:19 am
My spirit is from my father's South American Indian/Spanish blood. It's the same White Man religious story. Pretty much like the movie Avatar. The White Man wants and to hell with who or what may stand in his way. In the light of what he wants his treaties are practically worthless.

According to the treaty signed by the White participants James Arthur Ray and his company are protected by the law.

I wouldn't doubt if the White Man finds some way around that treaty as well.

Breaking treaties is the White Man way!

Don't we know it!"

This is a post of yours from another site...you are a fraud, and a fake...you have learned much from James Arthur Ray...when are you going to do a killer lodge and charge thousands of dollars?...

BTW....you are no where near the caliber of the real Crazy Horse....we all call you "crazy-troll"

• by lltosta June 12, 2010 7:40 PM EDT

I read the comment that Mr. Ray stated he was like a coach to his people in the sweat lodge in the same way a marathoner has a coach, well he may have not intentionally murdered those people but he did not have a trained medical staff waiting outside the sweat lodge. It is disturbing that he did not do everything in his power to assist his people. I believe in the court of popular opinion the majority of people see him as a charlatan and will avoid his products and his advice.

• by Green582 June 13, 2010 7:37 AM EDT

A woman in one of the police interviews has some interesting things to say about the Giant Plastic Death Tent:

"James sits at the door... and there is you know chanting and praying and that kind of stuff in between and blah-blah-blah.... and there is a saying that's called Haiyaha, it's like I don't know and some kind of Native American thing like you know that's cool.... We called these things radical spiritual experiences, okay, so anytime we did something like this... the idea is to give yourself an out of, not so much in it, but I know that word "out of body experience" has been used, but it's more about knowing that you are more, I mean normal people can't bend rebar with their necks, would you agree?"

Whatever she experienced had nothing to do with any kind of valid Native American Sweat Lodge tradition. But it gets worse. See the next post, where she confirms how Ray just up and decided to do this lodge against the express wishes of Native American people.

The police interview continues:

"Okay so the sweat lodge, he borrows from everybody and that actually has been part of his brilliance in my opinion is that he had the ability to take material from all kinds of different sources and synthesize it together and deliver it in a very understandable way. So he would borrow from the Native American tradition, he borrowed from the Hawaiian traditions, he borrowed from the South American natives, and has read extensively and like weaves all this stuff together. So when you are doing the stuff in Arizona, you are of course heavily on the Native American side of things and you are experiencing the energy of Sedona which is why people go there and the red rocks, and okay now we are going to do a sweat lodge...."

Okay, so being in a Native sacred site makes it all OK. These sacred sites are just theme parks to Death Ray. Now get this. The interviewee was around when Death Ray was starting out in the Death Tent business. This is how Ray came by the sacred Death Tent "Ritual":

"I do remember the first time we did it, he said, he called around to try to find somebody who would facilitate this, host it and facilitate it. He couldn't find anybody who was willing to do it, because he called some Native American places I guess that do this. And they said well how many stones or how many rounds did you want to do and I forget how many he said, but whatever his number was, they said no, white people can't do that. And he thought that was really funny then he said, well you don't know my white people, but yeah exactly you don't know my white people is what he said. So he took over and did it himself and found Angel Valley who was willing to let him do that, I guess."

After reading this, I had to do some checking up on what Ray was 'chanting'....it was as I expected...hogwash....
........"Haiyaha"..." a saying...that's cool".....well, I have never heard anything translated from my language that would be "that's cool"....I guess I'm not one of them "progressive Indians".( sigh....)

Oh, my goodness...someone fed her a big can of crap...Haiyaha is a lake in Colorado...inside Rocky Mountain National Park...very difficult to get to, as there is no blacktop to this lake...hike in, hike out...so, I would guess only avid hikers would recognize the name...there is also a Bear Lake, Nymph Lake, Emerald Lake & Dream Lake in the same vicinity...but they don't sound very native...oh, and Haiyaha is reported to be an "Indigenous Indian word meaning "rock".."........Okay, excuse me now while I go sit by the door of the sweat lodge and chant "rock"...feel free to join me...

• by royalbow June 13, 2010 12:21 PM EDT

'The Secret' is that these and many other folks paid a snake oil salesman for $10K worth of 'enlightenment' and he's been laughing (and some crying I'd hope/suppose) all the way to the bank. I wouldnt suggest anything intentional for sure, but this seems like a Jim Jones scenario to me.. brainwashing of needy lemmings. If you need some real enlightenment, how about helping others - volunteer for a charity, etc, instead of spending your $10K on personal and self-centered 'fulfillment'. Geez. No offense intended - but you follow a gentleman like this and you get what you get. He's preyed on the weakness of the human condition for years, and now it's exposed. Anyone really surprised?

• by catbyte June 18, 2010 1:59 PM EDT

You don't pay for the Medicine. All those people should have known better than to fork over their money to that crook. I hope they throw Ray's ass in jail.

Diane

Anishnabe in MI

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:28 PM EDT

James Ray needs to spend the rest of his life in a sweat lodge identical to the one he killed these people in. Prison isn't good enough for him.
This is an absolute disgrace to all Native Americans. My real name is posted here as my user name in the phonetic spelling. Native spelling is weawaste. I am Lakhota.
James Ray is evil, and I suspect he;s slipped off into madness. LOOk at his eyes - nothing there, people.
Packing 50+ plus people into a space that, even if correctly constructed and utilized could have held a maximum of 5 very very well prepared humans is utter insanity.

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:37 PM EDT

Too bad Native Americans would not allow his imprisonment as I have suggested. EATING?? breakfast beforehand - INSANE! but how would those people know not to eat ahead of time.
This is distgusting, tragic, and horrifying.
My prayers are with the families of all participants, especially for those who died SENSELESSLY for no reason whatsoever.

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:50 PM EDT

PS His chant appears to be a variation of hoka he - a warrior's battle cry loosely (or literally by some) translated to mean: IT IS A GOOD DAY TO DIE!

• by weawakshte June 18, 2010 3:55 PM EDT

In English, my Lakhota name weawaste means: good woman.

Copyright 2010 by WISN.com.

[Ursus]

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.

Was entertainment provided in the saunas and sweat lodges, Danny? Did some Jim Jones stand-in have y'all push through the toxemia and altered mental state brought about when your liver and kidneys shut down, and have y'all chant "it's a good day to die" when the going got tough?

[DannyB II]

Danny, we're posting on a forum which prominently features parents willingly sending their own children to total isolation a thousand miles away, with extremely limited contact, to people with obviously sadistic goals, whose notion of what makes good therapy is like Jeffrey Dahmer's notion of what makes a good lunch.

And this particular topic features people doing it to themselves, willingly sitting in a sauna until they died of heat exhaustion.

Maybe it's just because it's been in so many movies, but Ed Gein's brand of crazy seems tame and textbook by comparison.

All this talk of Jeffery Dahmer and Ed Gein just creeps me out. I have sat in many of saunas and sweat lodges, people have died of heat stroke and heart attacks not necessarily when I have been there. So this is not some extraordinary circumstance, my friends.

Was entertainment provided in the saunas and sweat lodges, Danny? Did some Jim Jones stand-in have y'all push through the toxemia and altered mental state brought about when your liver and kidneys shut down, and have y'all chant "it's a good day to die" when the going got tough?

Mr Breach, all I'm saying is folks have died while or after sweating at a lodges, I believe I forgot to mention the saunas too. This is horrible but not extraordinary. Though I believe we applaud your daily dose of dramatics. You should start you own news paper or Magazine, The DDD= Daily Dose of Dramatics.