Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Aspen Education Group
Another death last week at an Aspen program
Whooter:
--- Quote from: "Dysfunction Junction" ---So, if you are to use SageWalk's founder as a model of "truth-telling" you must then heed his warning that SageWalk is no longer safe for kids, as Aspen took away all of the safety controls and hired uneducated, unlicensed, non-CPR certified employees to work there. Maybe it was good for kids when he was there, but now he says it is dangerous for kids.You can't pick and choose which piece to believe!
It also hurts your argument that SageWalk is safe that they just killed a kid a few weeks ago. Doesn't seem very "safe" to me or to the founder who is rightly concerned that there are no safety controls or qualified people at SageWalk.
--- End quote ---
Exactly my point! So we need to rely on what the kids and parents have to say about the programs they attended. Lets listen at the source from people who have experienced programs today. We are going to hear bad stories and good ones. The parents job is to gather as much info as possible and weigh that ageinst present conditions.
Troll Control:
No, my point was specific to SageWalk's founder who admits it's now a dangerous and unsafe place for kids due to Aspen's handling of the business.
And anecdotal evidence from parents and kids doesn't mean anything, scientifically or legally speaking. Scientifically we would require a clinical trial of Aspens methods using a control group and an experimental group in a double-blind setup combined with a long-term follow -up of both groups. This is the only way to assess efficacy, period. There is no other method. To date, Aspen has refused to allow any clinical research.
Secondly, anecdotes can be true, false, or somewhere in the middle, depending on perspective. Therefore, we must rely on the fact-finding of the agency charged with overseeing MBA. It's report indicated wholesale, widespread abuse and neglect along with sexual humiliation of students. An objective, factual report is believable and passes the evidentiary tests that anecdotes simply cannot.
I'm sorry to have to keep reminding you, "Guest" about what facts are and what opinions are, but you seem unable to grasp the difference. Stories of parents and children = opinion. State report of abuse, neglect and sexual humiliation = fact. I hope you now understand the difference between objective facts and subjective opinions.
Troll Control:
Great post above. Keep the focus. Kids are dying on a regular basis at Aspen programs. This documented fact cannot be avoided.
Whooter:
Good discussion. So we can conclude that in the absence of studies we need to rely on those who have progressed thru the system. With an estimated 500 programs running today and lets say, to be conservative, 100 kids graduate a year (per program), then we are seeing 50,000 kids benefitting from these places and a handful who are harmed (1 per year? Maybe).
We see public school teachers raping their students but the ones benefitting from public education far outweighs those who are harmed and therefore we keep the public system going and don’t move to shut them down.
Troll Control:
No, we don't agree on anything at all. With no studies to validate your claims we must conclude that the programs are ineffective until proven otherwise. It's called "the scientific method" and you should learn about it.
Anecdotes from kids and parents do not in any way create validity of efficacy claims. In fact, the state of Oregon has documented the exact opposite: the very model of the programs is abusive. And it also substantiated claims of abuse and neglect, I believe nine cases in the past year from a single facility, including the sexualized humiliation of minor females forced to simulate oral sex on minor boys for "therapy."
No, we all can agree that the state of Oregon found out the truth about Aspen. You can't put the genie back in the bottle, Whooter.
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