Author Topic: Perception Vs. Reality  (Read 6112 times)

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Offline Ursus

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #60 on: January 06, 2009, 01:58:51 AM »
Getting back to the OP....

One of the on-topic links that wdtony provided in one of the first few posts in this thread was to a copy of a New York Times summary of a recent repeat of Solomn Asch's 1950's experiment on social conformity. The new experiment used f-MRI scans to pinpoint which parts of the brain were most active during actions of conformity and during assertion of an independent viewpoint.

Here is the article from its original source. I have taken the liberty of inserting the card graphic from Wikipedia's entry on Asch, but the other graphics are from the Times.

—•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•— —•?|•?•0•?•|?•—

The New York Times
What Other People Say May Change What You See
By SANDRA BLAKESLEE
Published: June 28, 2005

A new study uses advanced brain-scanning technology to cast light on a topic that psychologists have puzzled over for more than half a century: social conformity.

The study was based on a famous series of laboratory experiments from the 1950's by a social psychologist, Dr. Solomon Asch.


The study was based on 1950's work by the psychologist Solomon Asch, above.

In those early studies, the subjects were shown two cards. On the first was a vertical line. On the second were three lines, one of them the same length as that on the first card.


One of the pairs of cards used in the experiment. The card on the left has the reference line and the one on the right shows the three comparison lines.

Then the subjects were asked to say which two lines were alike, something that most 5-year-olds could answer correctly.

But Dr. Asch added a twist. Seven other people, in cahoots with the researchers, also examined the lines and gave their answers before the subjects did. And sometimes these confederates intentionally gave the wrong answer.

Dr. Asch was astonished at what happened next. After thinking hard, three out of four subjects agreed with the incorrect answers given by the confederates at least once. And one in four conformed 50 percent of the time.

Dr. Asch, who died in 1996, always wondered about the findings. Did the people who gave in to group do so knowing that their answers was wrong? Or did the social pressure actually change their perceptions?

The new study tried to find an answer by using functional M.R.I. scanners that can peer into the working brain, a technology not available to Dr. Asch.

The researchers found that social conformity showed up in the brain as activity in regions that are entirely devoted to perception. But independence of judgment - standing up for one's beliefs - showed up as activity in brain areas involved in emotion, the study found, suggesting that there is a cost for going against the group.

"We like to think that seeing is believing," said Dr. Gregory Berns, a psychiatrist and neuroscientist at Emory University in Atlanta who led the study.

But the study's findings, he said, show that seeing is believing what the group tells you to believe.

The research was published June 22 in the online edition of Biological Psychiatry.

"It's a very important piece of work," said Dr. Dan Ariely, a professor of management and decision making at the Massachusetts Institute of Technology, who was not involved in the study. "It suggests that information from other people may color our perception at a very deep level."

Dr. Brian Knutson, a neuroscientist at Stanford and an expert on perception, called the study "extremely clever."

"It had all the right controls and is a new contribution, the first to look at social conformity inside a brain magnet," he said.

Functional M.R.I. scanners detect which brain regions are active when people carry out various mental tasks.

The new study involved 32 volunteers who agreed to participate in a study on perception. "We told them others will be doing the same task, but you're the only one who will be in the scanner," Dr. Berns said.

The subjects were asked to mentally rotate images of three-dimensional objects to determine if the objects were the same or different.


In the new study, subjects were asked to decide if geometric shapes were the same or different. graphic: Dr. Gregory S. Berns

In the waiting room, the subjects met four people who they thought were other volunteers, but who in fact were actors, ready to fake their responses.

To encourage cohesiveness in the group, the participant and the four actors played practice rounds on laptop computers, took pictures of one another and chatted.

Then the participant went into the M.R.I. machine. The participant was told that the others would look at the objects first as a group and then decide if they were same or different.

As planned, the actors gave unanimously wrong answers in some instances and unanimously correct answers in others.

Mixed answers were sometimes thrown in to make the test more believable but they were not included in the analysis.

Next, the participant was shown the answer given by the others and asked to judge the objects.

Were they the same or different?

The brain scanner captured a picture of the judgment process.

In some trials, instead of being told that the other volunteers had given an answer, they were told that a computer had made the decision. Dr. Berns said this was done to make sure it was social pressure that was having an effect.

As in Dr. Asch's experiments, many of the subjects caved in to group pressure. On average, Dr. Berns said, they went along with the group on wrong answers 41 percent of the time.

The researchers had two hypotheses about what was happening. If social conformity was a result of conscious decision making, they reasoned, they should see changes in areas of the forebrain that deal with monitoring conflicts, planning and other higher-order mental activities.

But if the subjects' social conformity stemmed from changes in perception, there should be changes in posterior brain areas dedicated to vision and spatial perception.

In fact, the researchers found that when people went along with the group on wrong answers, activity increased in the right intraparietal sulcus, an area devoted to spatial awareness, Dr. Berns said.

There was no activity in brain areas that make conscious decisions, the researchers found. But the people who made independent judgments that went against the group showed activation in the right amygdala and right caudate nucleus - regions associated with emotional salience.

The implications of the study's findings are huge, Dr. Berns said.

In many areas of society - elections, for example, or jury trials - the accepted way to resolve conflicts between an individual and a group is to invoke the "rule of the majority." There is a sound reason for this: A majority represents the collective wisdom of many people, rather than the judgment of a single person.

But the superiority of the group can disappear when the group exerts pressure on individuals, Dr. Berns said.

The unpleasantness of standing alone can make a majority opinion seem more appealing than sticking to one's own beliefs.

If other people's views can actually affect how someone perceives the external world, then truth itself is called into question.

There is no way out of this problem, Dr. Ariely said.

But if people are made aware of their vulnerability, they may be able to avoid conforming to social pressure when it is not in their self-interest.

# # #
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Offline Froderik

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #61 on: January 06, 2009, 07:17:58 AM »
Quote from: "psy"
Hazelden's little red book commands AA members to seek out judges, police, and others in power to encourage coerced AA placement.
DAMN, that is fucked up.... A little more about this, please, when you have the time (maybe a link or two, or just some more info.)
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #62 on: January 06, 2009, 09:01:30 AM »
Is there somewhere we can download this "little red book"? I'm curious now.. and I rarely get to intrigued about AA topics or reading material.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #63 on: January 06, 2009, 01:47:25 PM »
Who cares. If you don't like AA, then don't go. The only people "coerced" to go, are people that got DUI's, and they should consider themselves lucky they didn't get jail. Would you rather sit in the back of a few meetings, or rot in jail? I know which one I'd choose. This whole anti-AA agenda is much to do about nothing, makes you look crazy.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #64 on: January 06, 2009, 01:57:02 PM »
I'd probably choose not to drive wasted myself.

Just throwin' that out there...
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Offline psy

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #65 on: January 06, 2009, 02:12:12 PM »
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cul ... recruiting
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-sentenced.html

"Jail or AA" i a false dichotomy.  The simple fact of the matter is that state referrals to a religious organization is a violation of the establishment clause.  At the same time, most who are referred to AA have no idea that it is a religious organization (not spritual) at the time they "choose" IF they choose, which is not always the case (judges often sentence to AA with no other option).

So... say a judge orders you to 90 meetings in 90 days (and it does not always have to be an "or jail" situation)... You really don't think that will have an affect on a person, when they're bombarded from every angle by the perception that AA works (which is a lie).  Take the whole "fake it til you make it" thing.  You think that's to help people "make it"?  No.  It's theatre for the newcomers (surely you noticed something similar in program).  Just like was demonstrated in the example in the OP, other people's perceptions DO influence your perceptions.  It doesn't make those perceptions accurate, however, since there IS objective truth of many things.  The objective truth of the matter is that AA religious, uses cult-like tactics, and DOES NOT WORK.  In fact, in one study, it caused binging to increase five fold over no treatment at all.

I am against ANY coerced treatment at all, whether it be for kids in program, or for court offenders sent to AA. I could give a fuck if people truly choose to go to AA (though I believe they should be educated), but forcing anybody into anything that can modify the way they think?  That's re-education.  Judges do not always give people an option anyway, and I know this for a fact, having known people sentenced to AA.

In addition, the greater, long term effect of this practice has been to build up the popularity of a religion (NOT treatment, and NOT based on science), that has incluenced government, the mecical community and the justice system with its religious, "god inspired" beliefs.  As Antigen noted, the whole drug war rests on AA's "progressive disease" concept and their "powerlessness concept", both of which are demonstratively objectively false.  To those who might counter that "alcoholism" is in the DSM as a disease, I might remind them both that the DSM''s concept of alcholism as a disease is VERY different than that of aa (it's curable, for one) and also that homosexuality was once listed in the DSM as a "disease".  The DSM is not infallible.  The fact that it changes; the fact that things are added and removed, proves that.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #66 on: January 06, 2009, 02:22:24 PM »
I've never sat through an AA meeting so I don't really know what it is like. But I will agree.. If I had a choice.. X number of days in Jail or X number of days of AA I'd pick AA for the obvious reason of not wanting to miss any good drinking time or work for that matter. However, the bigger concern for me isn't for those people who can walk away after the meeting. It would be those people inside jail being made to attend AA. Now that's gotta be rough. Every walking minute more or less controlled.. and then being taken to some freakshow of a cultist meeting to come clean about all your boozing.

It is pretty clear though that AA is a bit of a joke and the potential spring board for half of the cults existing in the USA. Charles Deiderich was an ex-AA member who got kicked out if I remember? What happened to him? Synonan anyone?
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Offline psy

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #67 on: January 06, 2009, 02:57:13 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Charles Deiderich was an ex-AA member who got kicked out if I remember? What happened to him? Synonan anyone?
He was kicked out because he wanted AA to cator to narcotics users as well.  AA, at the time, was opposed to the idea.  So he started his own meetings, which eventually progressed into Synanon.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #68 on: January 06, 2009, 03:32:40 PM »
:jawdrop: here I thought he was just a fruitcake. Turns out he is a rabid foaming at the mouth rattle snake handling AA fruitcake.
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Offline Anonymous

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #69 on: January 06, 2009, 07:27:37 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
Who cares. If you don't like AA, then don't go. The only people "coerced" to go, are people that got DUI's, and they should consider themselves lucky they didn't get jail. Would you rather sit in the back of a few meetings, or rot in jail? I know which one I'd choose. This whole anti-AA agenda is much to do about nothing, makes you look crazy.


I agree.

Psy, you are frustrating.

What you are saying is completely wacky. That’s fine, but the problem is you are a “representative” voicing the reality abduction, torture, brainwashing and murder for profit in America Gulags like  Desisto, Elan, CEDU Running Springs, Kids helping Kids, etc.

You have created a situation where people either have to write off the info about cults, brainwashing, and Cultic-Gulags that you provide as unreliable, or accept that “brainwashing” equates to ethical, non-abusive, consensual, partly scientifically validated interaction.

Because of this, when you say that prisoners who support wwasp are “brainwashed” people know that your idea of “brainwashing” is ethical, non-abusive, consensual scientifically validated interaction. Therefore, they’ll have to agree with the trolls who claim that “brainwashing” as defined on fornits(or at least by you) does not match with a sensible definition of brainwashing , or that  “brainwashing” is something other than what it is: the Lifton based notions of brainwashing, i.e. cultic, and gulag (Chinese Falun Gong http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles ... 95696.html) brainwashing.

Also, the majority of the info you give about A.A. is incorrect which is shown with simple google searches. You don’t like the broccoli/human analogy, but really you might as well be saying that broccoli walks and talks because its overall genetic structure matches the homosapein’s when you say that A.A. brainwashes because of one irrelevant “similarity” to a cult or another. You focus on trivial similarities, ignore the important differences, and twist things to create similarities. Also, a simple google search will validate that there are many, many scientific studies that are considered evidence of addiction, and the current scientific understanding is that addiction is very real. Addiction has hardly been “disproved;” it’s not even really scientifically controversial. Argh. Stop the insanity!
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Offline psy

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #70 on: January 06, 2009, 08:05:25 PM »
Quote from: "Guest"
I agree.

Psy, you are frustrating.

What you are saying is completely wacky. That’s fine, but the problem is you are a “representative” voicing the reality abduction, torture, brainwashing and murder for profit in America Gulags like  Desisto, Elan, CEDU Running Springs, Kids helping Kids, etc.

As I said earlier, I AM NOT A REPRESENTATIVE OF ANYBODY BUT MYSELF.  IF you're trying to somehow shame me into never mentioning the cult like aspects of AA or in any way say what I can or can not say you can stop trying now and go fuck yourself instead.  It would be more productive.

Quote
You have created a situation where people either have to write off the info about cults, brainwashing, and Cultic-Gulags that you provide as unreliable, or accept that “brainwashing” equates to ethical, non-abusive, consensual, partly scientifically validated interaction.

Margaret singer writes in her book "cults in our midst" that in most cults people can technically leave at any time and that most cults do NOT employ physical coercion.  She writes that more often than not, such techinques are counterproductive.  The fact that AA is (sometimes) consensual at first (but based on deception) does not mean someplace is a cult one way or the other.  Also, as I noted in my previous post above, a large portion of AA's members were coerced there at first.

Quote
Because of this, when you say that prisoners who support wwasp are “brainwashed” people know that your idea of “brainwashing” is ethical, non-abusive, consensual scientifically validated interaction. Therefore, they’ll have to agree with the trolls who claim that “brainwashing” as defined on fornits(or at least by you) does not match with a sensible definition of brainwashing , or that  “brainwashing” is something other than what it is: the Lifton based notions of brainwashing, i.e. cultic, and gulag (Chinese Falun Gong http://www.clearwisdom.net/emh/articles ... 95696.html) brainwashing.

I have read Lifton, Singer, and ofshe among others.  I know full well what brainwashing is by their definitions.  I know what the criteria for cults are, and I know that you have not read certain books because if you had, you would be bringing up some better counterarguments.

Quote
Also, the majority of the info you give about A.A. is incorrect which is shown with simple google searches.

Oh really?  MENTION ONE!


Quote
You don’t like the broccoli/human analogy, but really you might as well be saying that broccoli walks and talks because its overall genetic structure matches the homosapein’s when you say that A.A. brainwashes because of one irrelevant “similarity” to a cult or another. You focus on trivial similarities, ignore the important differences

Such as?  I would like to hear one element of a cult you think that AA does not have, other than the lack of a charismatic leader, which i'll concede.  You claim you have studied cults...  let me test that if you challenge me.  I can name another element AA does not have off the top of my head.  Let's see if you can name it.

Quote
and twist things to create similarities.

OK.  I see you saying that AA has important differences between It and other cults.  I ACCEPT THAT.  I said AA was CULT LIKE... NOT A CULT.  AA, for example, does not have a living charismatic leader (technically, neither does Scientology, since LRH is dead, but that doesn't mean Scientology isn't cult like, or even a full blown cult).  there ARE important differences.  Never did I say anywhere that AA in any way equates to the kind of coercion or brainwashing that goes on in most programs.

Quote
Also, a simple google search will validate that there are many, many scientific studies that are considered evidence of addiction, and the current scientific understanding is that addiction is very real. Addiction has hardly been “disproved;” it’s not even really scientifically controversial. Argh. Stop the insanity!

I never said addiction did not exist.  Are you TheWho?  Do not put words in my mouth. I said addiction was not a disease, especially in the way AA defines it (progressive, incurable).

If you have studies, besides the monkey one which i've already noted the problems with, post em here.  Put up or shut the fuck up.

Are you an AA member?  Have you ever been to AA meetings?  How long did you go?
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Offline Miss Antsy Pam

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #71 on: January 06, 2009, 08:43:49 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Is there somewhere we can download this "little red book"? I'm curious now.. and I rarely get to intrigued about AA topics or reading material.

The "little red book" is rarely used anymore, except at Hazelden, since they market the book.  The most common texts are still the Big Book and the 24 hours a day - Daily Meditation book.

It is not worth the trouble reading it.  I have one around here somewhere if you feel an overwhelming need to become informed Che..lmk.
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #72 on: January 06, 2009, 09:54:45 PM »
Well.. unless you want to ship it to China.... I'm sure it would fit in just fine with the millions of copies of Mao's little red book.
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Offline Miss Antsy Pam

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #73 on: January 06, 2009, 10:04:24 PM »
Quote from: "Che Gookin"
Well.. unless you want to ship it to China.... I'm sure it would fit in just fine with the millions of copies of Mao's little red book.

I was waiting for someone to compare it to Mao lil red book....LMAO!!
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Offline Che Gookin

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Re: Perception Vs. Reality
« Reply #74 on: January 06, 2009, 10:08:44 PM »
Well they are both little, and I dare say they are both quite red. Not sure how they compare content wise though. Haven't red either.
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