point was that in a broad sense everything has similarities, but that doesn't make them "the same."
I realize full well what you are trying to say. If you had read margaret singer you could have just said "fallacy of one similarity" in which she uses a similar argument.
In the meaningful sense of brainwashing, captivity, abuse, cultic relations the A* progams are NOT "the same" or "similar" to programs*.
And what if I were to consider Institutional AA and communal AA two parts of the same group? Ever researched how most current members got into the organization.
If they're not so similar, why is it that programs often utilize AA teachings, beliefs, language, and literature, making it clear to the program members that
they will die if they don't go to meetings when they leave (many programs make sure to emphasize this to parents as well).
I agree with the poster that this comparison coming from the person who runs fornits does not reflect well on our credibility as a whole, and misleads people who have not been in programs about the nature of programs.
My views are my own and bear no reflection on the opinions of others on this forum. The fact you're talking to me at all about this is proof of that. If this was a place that had a central viewpoint, you would quickly be booted off.
For anyone visiting: programs and AA/NA/OA have NO meaningful equitability in terms of brainwashing, torture, cultic methodology and relation.
They are similar, but let me make it clear that programs add to AA. In other words, it's a lot more than just your standard 12 stepping fare.
When AA starts abducting people, holding them captive, charging huge amounts of $ for their “services” thereby making anyone who organizes a AA program a millionaire, brainwashing people in a cordinated effort from the top down, etc, etc then we can start making comparisons.
Also. Let me make it clear that I never said AA was a cult. It's a cult like organization. If you're not familiar with that term it means an organizatino with one or more cultic traits that does not fulfill enough of the requirements to gain the "cult" label (such as lack of a central leader
that is still alive). That being said, there are clearly AA based cults, which make up the
vast majority of programs.
Also, whether or not AA is a cult is besides the point. Even by their own studies it's useless at best and harmful at worst. That is beyond dispute.
In a sophisticated controlled study of A.A.'s effectiveness (Brandsma et. al.), court-mandated offenders who had been sent to Alcoholics Anonymous for several months were engaging in FIVE TIMES as much binge drinking as another group of alcoholics who got no treatment at all, and the A.A. group was doing NINE TIMES as much binge drinking as another group of alcoholics who got rational behavior therapy.
Outpatient Treatment of Alcoholism, by Jeffrey Brandsma, Maxie Maultsby, and Richard J. Welsh. University Park Press, Baltimore, MD., page 105.
Also:
http://www.morerevealed.com/library/coc/chapter7.htmalso
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-effectiveness.htmlAA does deceive newcomers to get them to stay with theater of it's effectiveness (though this is justified with faking it to make it, among other reasons).
AA does bait and switch
AA does try to influence government, judges, members of the media, and police to get court ordered members (see Hazelden's Red Book).
AA does control communication of it's members.. a sponsor says whether a person is healthy or not
AA does make excessive demands for confession and reparation... confessions which are often trumped up for acceptance in the organization.
AA IS a religion. Courts have ruled this and the supreme court will not challenge those decisions, making it the law of the land.
AA does have it's set of loaded language. In addition to redefining terms such as "sobriety" (which comes to mean lifelong membership in AA), they use thought stopping cliches such as "stop your thinking thinking" and so on and so forth.
AA does make people deployable members of teh group for recruitment purposes (12th step).
AA does consider their scripture to be inspired by god (yes, they really do!).
AA purports to tell people they can take what they want and leave the rest while gradually "educating" people (creating learned powerlessness) that they will die if they stop going to meetings. You hear *A members say all the time "I stopped going to meetings... and I relapsed".
AA not have secret teachings per-se, but it is said that "more will be revealed" and it certainly is as time and the bait and switch progresses.
I could go on and on and on, but my point is that AA, as a whole, is toxic. It's not a legitimate treatment option of any sort. "cult" or not, it IS
legally a religion that masquerades a treatment solution (only later to tell those who come that they can never be cured!)
Yes, not all AA meetings are the same and yes, there are some that are "more liberal" but by and large, the whole idea is based on the
hallucinogenic-induced bullshit visions of a narcissistic quack (Bill Wilson) who saw himself as the messiah and claimed god inspired his writings. It's no surprise it doesn't work
at all.
