DAYTOP Did Me Great Harm in the Long Run

[Anne Bonney]

I understand the kids who just get out of programs and want to blow off some steam by posting on the internet. But what strikes me as particularly sad is the middle aged "survivors" who still can't let go of an experience and hold onto the past and use it to account for their failure in life. Nothing is as pathetic as middle aged people still bitching about their child hood. Get over it already whiners.

Oh go on with your bad self.    Jeezus christ, what the fuck is it about program people that they absolutely cannot BEAR to hear anything negative about their beloved programs?  And why must we always be "fucks ups" or "addicts" if we're criticizing them?

Most of us 'old timers' are here to help ease the newly released POWs back into normal society and to regain their critical thinking skills.  This kind of a mindfuck has lasting repercussions.  It gets into the core of a person's psyche and scrambles it.  It teaches them that they are powerless, it teaches them that they will fail w/o benefit of the program, it teaches them that they are damaged for life.  None of it is true and the new people could use a little reassurance that they're not crazy.

Why are you here?

[Anonymous]

Just because you failed at recovery does not indicate that others will.

This mentality is something that facinates me.  It's "if you are critizing the program, you must not be sober!".  It implies a person can only get "sober" through the one program... that there is only one true path to salvation.  When I went down to protest Benchmark, the first thing they told their students (from what one told me) was that I was on drugs.  I wasn't, but for the sake of argument, even if I was, how would they know (what... do staff have built in long-range drug detectors), and even if they did, it wouldn't defeat my arguments. It's just ad-hominem...  one of the few, over-used weapons program supporters have in their arsenals.

I never said the person wasn't sober, I said they have failed in recovery. In order to recover you must come to terms with issues. As SEKTO has not.

[psy]

In order to recover you must come to terms with issues. As SEKTO has not.

Oh?  So "recovery" implies more to you than just getting off drugs?  That word have a special meaning to members of your group?  Wow!  I am utterly shocked.  Perhaps you can elaborate as to precisely what "recovery" means in your lexicon.

[Anonymous]

PSY,
I have already elaborated and made the point clearly. "My Group" as you say is just one person who will not allow the few failures of a program to spread lies.

[psy]

PSY,
I have already elaborated and made the point clearly. "My Group" as you say is just one person who will not allow the few failures of a program to spread lies.

You didn't answer the question.

[Anonymous]

PSY,
I have already elaborated and made the point clearly. "My Group" as you say is just one person who will not allow the few failures of a program to spread lies.

You didn't answer the question.

Where was I asked a question?

[psy]

PSY,
I have already elaborated and made the point clearly. "My Group" as you say is just one person who will not allow the few failures of a program to spread lies.

You didn't answer the question.

Where was I asked a question?

Are you being dishonest?

"So "recovery" implies more to you than just getting off drugs? That word have a special meaning to members of your group? Wow! I am utterly shocked. Perhaps you can elaborate as to precisely what "recovery" means in your lexicon."

Rephased: To you, does "recovery" imply more than just getting off drugs?  Does that word have a special meaning to you?  What does "recovery" mean to you (define it)?

[SEKTO]

Monsignor O'Brien and the DAYTOP organization have made this person "Honesty" feel good about him or her-self, probably for the first time in his/her life, and "Honesty" wants to do everything he/she can to make sure that nothing further happens to expose DAYTOP and hurt the credibility of the man (O'Brien) and group (DAYTOP) that have given this person his/her new-found improved self-image.

"Honesty's" is a very typical position in most cult groups. People outside of the group are viewed either as potential members or potential enemies of the group. They are not usually considered appropriate for friendships-whether close or casual.  They are not seen as adequate individuals in and of themselves.

All cults and abusive organizations view themselves as engaged in some all-important work, whether it is to convert lost souls, spread "The Truth," improve the well-being of members, get people off of drugs, or simply raise money. Nothing can be permitted to interfere with this all-important mission.

"Honesty's" is a classic expression of the "end justifies the means" argument. This is a terrible concept under the best of circumstances, as it permits deception and other unethical behavior in the pursuit of "good" goals. It is especially heinous when followed in the name of helping people.

"Honesty" (and all of the DAYTOPians for that matter) needs to learn that his/her importance and worth as a person does not depend on any role or function that he/she fills in a group-his/her value (and that of all people) rests in the fact that he/she is a human being. One is not more valuable because one possesses a high IQ, has many possessions, lives in a three-story mansion, or has been sober for twenty years.

After all, it is DAYTOP that makes "Honesty" feel so good about him or her-self-so self-confident and worthwhile, probably for the first time in his/her life. He/she may believe that he has no options outside of the group, and that is not a happy prospect for him/her.

So rather than receive the message, he/she attacks the messenger (in this case, myself) through use of the ad hominem attack.

Again, a very typical reaction for someone in an abusive and controlling group. After a certain point it seems that they are unable to refute the logical, objective arguments put to them and so he/she does what people often do in such a situation: they attack DAYTOP's critics personally. If one party to a dispute can discredit the other party in some way, then it is easier to to discredit that person's arguments. This is what the DAYTOPian trolls engage in time after time, argument for the sake of argument, and it is quite a pedantic and tiresome tactic.

[Anonymous]

Rephased: To you, does "recovery" imply more than just getting off drugs?  Does that word have a special meaning to you?  What does "recovery" mean to you (define it)?[/quote]

 Recovery has many meanings. It depends upon the person and situation. Being drug free is just part of it. If a person has a drug or alcohol issue. So to answer your question Yes It certainly does mean more me then just getting off drugs!

[Anonymous]

Monsignor O'Brien and the DAYTOP organization have made this person "Honesty" feel good about him or her-self, probably for the first time in his/her life, and "Honesty" wants to do everything he can to make sure that nothing further happens to expose DAYTOP and hurt the credibility of the man (O'Brien) and group (DAYTOP) that have given this person his/her new-found improved self-image.

"Honesty's" is a very typical position in most cult groups. People outside of the group are viewed either as potential members or potential enemies of the group. They are not usually considered appropriate for friendships-whether close or casual.  They are not seen as adequate individuals in and of themselves.

All cults and abusive organizations view themselves as engaged in some all-important work, whether it is to convert lost souls, spread "The Truth," improve the well-being of members, get people off of drugs, or simply raise money. Nothing can be permitted to interfere with this all-important mission.

"Honesty's" is a classic expression of the "end justifies the means" argument. This is a terrible concept under the best of circumstances, as it permits deception and other unethical behavior in the pursuit of "good" goals. It is especially heinous when followed in the name of helping people.

"Honesty" (and all of the DAYTOPians for that matter) needs to learn that his/her importance and worth as a person does not depend on any role or function that he/she fills in a group-his/her value (and that of all people) rests in the fact that he/she is a human being. One is not more valuable because one possesses a high IQ, has many possessions, lives in a three-story mansion, or has been sober for twenty years.

After all, it is DAYTOP that makes "Honesty" feel so good about him or her-self-so self-confident and worthwhile, probably for the first time in his/her life. He/she may believe that he has no options outside of the group, and that is not a happy prospect for him/her.

So rather than receive the message, he/she attacks the messenger (in this case, myself) through use of the ad hominem attack.

Again, a very typical reaction for someone in an abusive and controlling group. After a certain point it seems that they are unable to refute the logical, objective arguments put to them and so he/she does what people often do in such a situation: they attacks DAYTOP's critics personally. If one party to a dispute can discredit the other party in some way, then it is easier to to discredit that person's arguments. This is what the DAYTOPian trolls engage in time after time, argument for the sake of argument, and it is quite a pedantic and tiresome tactic.

What a crock of shit. First let me say that you continue to assume things that just are not true. This is typical of failures and how they tend to think. You can blame Monsignor and Daytop all you want but you know the truth. I only attack the messenger when the words they use are lies. As is the case with you. I take offense to you speaking poorly about individuals who are deceased and who were good people. I also see you have not and likely wont dispute what I have called you on. Instead of maybe saying that the program was not for you and didn't help, you attack the people who tried to help you. You would help more people by maybe recommending other forms of treatment or help. Of course you likely can't since it appears you have not gotten the help you need. So stop the bullshit. Daytop is not for everyone and they never claimed to be. They do help some people and that is a fact. I would love to know what you think Daytops motives are for hurting people as you claim they have.

[psy]

it appears you have not gotten the help you need.

Define "help you need", or for that matter, why don't you define "recovery"?  This is not a stupid request.  Answer the question and you'll see where i'm going.

[SEKTO]

In a cult, abusive organization, or abusive relationship it does not matter if the information presented is true.  If the information presented is negative about the group or any member of the group, then you cannot say it. Usually such negative information will be will be labeled as slander, and if one persists in speaking it or writing it one can be disciplined severely; speaking ill about or being at all critical of the group can result in the speaker (or in this case, writer) being demonized, dehumanized, poked fun at, humiliated, or what have you.

You gave me an old-school haircut and really put me in my place, huh?

Wow, I admit it; you are right, Honesty.

Yes, I admit to God, yourself, and all participants in this forum that I am a hypocrite, a failure, an idiot, and a weak person in general.

It is such a blessing to have good friends like you, who'll point out my imperfections and help me to correct my attitude when it is needful for you to do so.

I am humbled and welcome the opportunity to receive rebuke from you in the future.

Thanks for your wonderful service.

When all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.  Do you see what I am driving at?

In other words, a lot of times people who leave high control groups (and this particularly happens with people who were part of leadership in their group, as I suspect that you are) still behave as if they are still in the group when interacting with others in another group situation, regardless of whether that kind of behavior is appropriate in the new situational context.

That is what I see you doing ; you are behaving this situational context as if you are still in your old group, namely DAYTOP.

Actually, I suspect that you are presently part of DAYTOP leadership.

Is this assessment correct?

You are translating your (past or present) position as a leader within the DAYTOP organization, into this situation and it's not appropriate for you to do so.

Thanks again for humbling me with your words of rebuke.  

I'm sure that I deserved such hostility and beg your pardon for being offensive.

You are right, I am an idiot, a hypocrite, weak, and a failure.  

Maybe one day I can arrive at your level of virtue and goodness.

I sure hope to be a well-adjusted and psychologically healthy guy one day, just like you.

Thanks for straightening me out.  I am sure you feel really good about yourself now.

With such a great example as you to show me the way to go about resolving conflict (with verbal abuse and psychological assaults) I am sure to go far in life.

Seriously though, your response to me was just plain nasty.

You come across to me as arrogant, condescending, and self-righteous.

But that's OK.  I am not going to lose any sleep over it.  And do you know why?

BECAUSE I REALLY DO NOT GIVE A DAMN ABOUT YOUR OPINION, THAT'S WHY.

[Anne Bonney]

I never said the person wasn't sober, I said they have failed in recovery. In order to recover you must come to terms with issues. As SEKTO has not.

Yeah, we get it.  Anyone who dares criticize your beloved program or program guru obviously hasn't "come to terms with their issues".  Right.

     

[Anonymous]

Sekto, I hope you really mean what you said you are willing to testify in court. You Have made statements in this post that are a lie. You also stated that some are HIV positive and some are dead and so on. I hope you have alot of money to defend yourself in a court of law. You are liable and I can't wait for you to have to pay the price for your lies. You have a number of facts wrong and It appears to me that you have a ton of personal guilt about how you treated someone. You can try and blame the program for your wrong's but you will have to live with it your whole life. Daytop did not make you treat someone bad. They also never abused you or damaged you. You were that way when you got there and you remain F*** Up. How dare you slander people who are dead. They have no way to defend themselves. While I do not have time now to disbute all your lies, rest assured I will.  :twofinger:

and yet..no civil action on your behalf or those you represent, because, of course, Setko is being utterly truthful. Thank you setko, for your intelligent, and thoughtful commentary here.

[Anne Bonney]

Were people really forced to walk around with pacifiers in their mouths?

Thought I'd ask again since I didn't get an answer.