Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Aspen Education Group
Lone Star Expeditions
Covergaard:
--- Quote from: ""Anonymous LSE Staff"" ---Truth is...everyone I ever knew at LoneStar was there for the love of children. We know how awesome it is when you do something difficult and succeed...and we knew those kids needed some self-esteem. We did not push our kids to dangerous places either physically or mentally. And we did NOT neglect their health, we had kids in and out of the doctor and ER every damn day, half of them faking and us wanting to be sure there wasn't something really wrong.
--- End quote ---
If that is the truth, how come that the concept of bringing children involuntary treatment and in fact a kind of imprisonment without any face-to-face contact with the family for weeks, is recognized as abuse even as far as 6000 kilometers away?
How come that the reputation of LSE can be so bad that they are known for abuse outside the states?
Regardless of the type of crimes, drug-use or illness a child could have done or contracted, in my country we dont have a kind of placement that doesn't allow the child to have face-to-face contact with the child every 14 days.
We are talking of children, who have taken other peoples lives and even those children have more rights regarding having their version of the truth told or getting acces to meet their own family than children in the LSE program.
Thought-provoking, is it not?
Deborah:
--- Quote from: ""Anonymous LSE Staff"" ---You guys are breaking my heart.
--- End quote ---
What, you want us to cry a bucket for you? Any sympathy sh0uld be directed to Matthew's parents.
--- Quote ---And I know every single one of the people that worked with Matt very well, in fact, I personally trained most of the people working there now. If you don't know me or my former coworkers, please don't judge us as sicko sadists who like to punish kids and make them suffer.
--- End quote ---
It will more likely be along the lines of sicko sadists who denied his needs (neglect), in this situation. He certainly suffered.
--- Quote ---Truth is...everyone I ever knew at LoneStar was there for the love of children. We know how awesome it is when you do something difficult and succeed...and we knew those kids needed some self-esteem.
--- End quote ---
Guess what? There are so many other ethical, evidence-based options for kids with low self-esteem. There's no reason to banish them to the woods and subject them to the risk of death or serious injury.
--- Quote ---We did not push our kids to dangerous places either physically or mentally. And we did NOT neglect their health, we had kids in and out of the doctor and ER every damn day, half of them faking and us wanting to be sure there wasn't something really wrong.
--- End quote ---
Doesn't square with the report.
They were recently sued (July 2006) regarding the death of a boy named Matthew Meyer, who died while attending their program. The boy's mother claimed that the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.
--- Quote ---In fact, half our staff was coming out of wilderness first responder class (80 hours total to handle things like this) on our week OFF the day that Matt died.
--- End quote ---
Handle things "like this"?
What does WFR training teach about the effects of sudden drug withdrawal?
How much did Matthew weigh?
Was heat a factor? It was 97* with 90% humidity, at 5pm that day.
What bipolar med was he taking? Some psych drugs tend to raise body temp without exercion.
What's the maximum temp you can march kids at? It's 90* in Utah where they've had numerous deaths due to heat exhaustion and have had to revise their maximum temp from 95* to 90*. Not that programs adhere to these rules, but they're on the books.
--- Quote ---We piled into about 3 vehicles and drove like bats outta hell to get there. There were about 20 medical professionals with Matt that day. 8 WFR trainees plus our instructor from out of state, an ambulance crew, our field medic, and Matt's field staff members could not keep Matt alive. It just was not true that people just stood back and watched him die unconcerned.
--- End quote ---
Doesn't square with the mother's claim.
The boy's mother claimed that the counselors refused to administer his bipolar medication and he exhibited severe withdrawal symptoms. On the day he died, he supposedly laid unconscious and vomiting for fifteen minutes before he was given any medical aid by the staff.
You admit yourself
--- Quote ---What happened is that Matt sat down by the tree away from his group and started making snoring noises.
--- End quote ---
Started making snoring noises? You mean, "death rattle"? Is that not covered in the 80 hours of WFR training? No EMTs on staff?
Seems to conflict with LSEs statement:
The boy had just finished the hike at 5 p.m. Friday when he said he felt faint and lost consciousness, said Scott Spaw, executive director of Lone Star Expeditions.
--- Quote ---His group and staff thought he was goofing around, joking about how tired he was.
--- End quote ---
That's the same defense they all use, "We thought he was faking". How tired could he be after a 1 mile hike?
--- Quote ---Well, do any of YOU know what a death rattle sounds like? I don't and neither did his staff.
--- End quote ---
Probably not, but then none of us take kids into the Outback, deny them their psych meds, and force them to march. Have you not read the 50 some accounts of deaths in Wilderness programs? If you and your colleagues haven't, perhaps you sh0uld so you have an understanding of what can go wrong. Apparently the WFR training isn't adequate.
--- Quote ---But they knew Matt...and they knew that he was pretty respectful to them, so when he didn't stop snoring when they told him enough was enough...they went to check on him and found him in cardiac arrest and started CPR.
--- End quote ---
When did the vomitting begin? Respectful? First day, I'm sure he was terrified.
--- Quote ---Matt's autopsy revealed that he died of an unknown heart defect that no one could have found prior to his placement with LSE, and that it would have killed him that day whether he was hiking in the Texas heat, or sitting home in the AC watching TV.
--- End quote ---
Bullshit. But I will give you this. Wilderness programs would be wise to decline enrollment of kids on psych drugs, particularly if their policy is to withdraw kids from them. I don't know which one he was taking, but many carry the risk of death with sudden withdrawal. If you don't know this, how can you train others? If you know it and defered to Aspen/LSEs policy, you hold some responsibility.
What did you learn?
Where are you working now?
Do/would you train staff differently now?
--- Quote ---What you guys don't see in the statistics while you are looking for ways to horribleize my job.
--- End quote ---
Most of us are well aware of the stats. Are you? 50 some kids have died in Wilderness "therapy". Sh0ould ANY form of therapy put kids at risk of death? Most of US think not. What's a shame is that parents don't really know the risks and stats either. They aren't making an informed decision when they hand their 'babies' over to imbeciles to force march them threw the wilds.
I'm sure it was shocking to realize you'd killed a kid. Imagine how his folks must feel. I can't help but wonder if the drug caused the heart defect and the withdrawal and stress of hiking in the heat and high humidity, put too much strain on his heart.
--- Quote ---LSE helps many many many kids, usually when we get them we care more about them than they care about themselves. Not because it is Aspen, not because it is wilderness, but because of the people who live and work with these kids every day.
--- End quote ---
Yeh, yeh, yeh. The "Window of Loss" excuse. A few die, but soooo many are helped. You're here for one reason. To defend your profession.
Talk more about what you don't like about Aspen. That might be useful.
TheWho:
I think the whole thing is sad and unfortunate and sympathy should be towards Matt’s family. Bottom line is the autopsy showed that Matt would have died regardless of where he was so there is no need to point fingers or try to make each other feel guilty. I am sure people feel bad enough in cases like this.
Lawsuits are all about differences of perspective and opinion in which a third party is sought out to make a decision based on evidence and past outcomes in an attempt to settle a dispute.
We need to wait for a decision on this.
“Anon LSE staff” was there, has first hand knowledge and can shed more light on what transpired than any of us can.
Troll Control:
--- Quote from: ""TheWho"" ---I think the whole thing is sad and unfortunate and sympathy should be towards Matt’s family. Bottom line is the autopsy showed that Matt would have died regardless of where he was so there is no need to point fingers or try to make each other feel guilty. I am sure people feel bad enough in cases like this.
Lawsuits are all about differences of perspective and opinion in which a third party is sought out to make a decision based on evidence and past outcomes in an attempt to settle a dispute.
We need to wait for a decision on this.
“Anon LSE staff” was there, has first hand knowledge and can shed more light on what transpired than any of us can.
--- End quote ---
can you show me a copy of the autopsy report where it states the kid would have died that day regardless of the conditions under which he was operating? thanks in advance.
Oz girl:
A remarkable amount of kids who are 15 years old or thereabouts seem to have heart attacks at wilderness. This is a cause of death I had not ever heard of in teens before i came across this sordid excuse for an industry. The fist defence is always it seems "natural causes".
You hear of 55 year old fat guys who have enjoyed the good life for 30 years having a heart attack on the golf course and their Doctor mates saying that it was a natural cause. This is because they have been eating steak and drinking scotch and smoking for decades. How often do you hear of kids even fat ones "naturally" having a stroke or heart attack?
I dont think the staff in all cases are sadistic monsters but their idiocy appears to be astounding. i dont doubt most feel they are helping. But the idea that physical or psychological pain is good for anyone defies logic. i wonder if when the guidelines set the temp bar at 90 they take into account the humidity factor of Texas in the height of summer.
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