Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Aspen Education Group
Lone Star Expeditions
TheWho:
--- Quote from: ""Oz girl"" ---This did not answer the question. it was just a story about your daughter.
So i will ask another way
How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid?
--- End quote ---
Wow, that is a huge question. Not sure how to answer that easily. Going from a bad place to a good place typically involves discomfort. Quitting smoking, drug withdrawal, leaving the comforts of home behind to focus on oneself would involve discomfort at first. Going on a diet, leaving an abusive relationship.
I think any growing experience has some level of discomfort that goes along with it.
Do you see it this way?
Oz girl:
--- Quote from: ""TheWho"" ---
--- Quote from: ""Oz girl"" ---This did not answer the question. it was just a story about your daughter.
So i will ask another way
How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid?
--- End quote ---
Wow, that is a huge question. Not sure how to answer that easily. Going from a bad place to a good place typically involves discomfort. Quitting smoking, drug withdrawal, leaving the comforts of home behind to focus on oneself would involve discomfort at first. Going on a diet, leaving an abusive relationship.
I think any growing experience has some level of discomfort that goes along with it.
Do you see it this way?
--- End quote ---
What i see is that any kind of lisfestyle improvements need to come from an enternal desire to change. They also require the active support of loved ones. Kids who are geographically cut off from such people do not have either of these things. You cant "force" anyone to want to change and all of these places attempt to do this.
i also see that a for proft company does not give a rats ass what the kid needs or whether it is meeting a kids needs. What it cares about is whether it can convince the parents that it is meeting the kids needs.
hanzomon4:
No who, therapy does not purposefully involve making a kid miserable to the point of faking sick and then dying. If we follow your logic we should all be shocking our depressed, drug addicted, "disrespectful" teens with stun guns because, while painful, they'll grow emotionally.
Question, how did Ian emotionally grow? How did Anderson emotionally grow? Giovanni? James? did their discomfort afford them any emotional growth? Also why is it that programs don't warn parents that during the "transition" complaints of sickness or discomfort will be treated like possible manipulation?
This is B.S.
A few kids may die because of this willful and purposeful neglect but how many suffer needlessly. I say needlessly because I don't believe in torturing kids to get them to emotionally grow, I'm sure you would call any suffering necessary.
I also wonder about this, kids get sent to programs for being into things that may bring harm to them like drugs, abusive relationships, depression. Why then do program-parents ignore the dangers of programs in regards to the safety of their children?
*waits for the who's response*
*can't wait so makes a who parody"
I'm not saying that kids must suffer I'm only pointing out, in response to Oz girls question, that pain is often apart of growth. What happened to Ian , Anderson, James, and Giovanni were all tragic mistakes that will only serve to raise the bar in the future. Shame on you hanzo for using their tragic deaths to further your one-sided agenda.
Comparing Programs to dangerous attitudes and behaviors that sometimes result in death is not fair because programs try to help kids and only has the best interest of the child in mind. The deaths that do happen in programs are tragic mistakes that we should not be so quick to blame on the PROgram
TheWho:
oz girl wrote:
--- Quote ---What i see is that any kind of lisfestyle improvements need to come from an enternal desire to change. They also require the active support of loved ones. Kids who are geographically cut off from such people do not have either of these things. You cant "force" anyone to want to change and all of these places attempt to do this.
--- End quote ---
Yes, but I have seen many of these kids start out very resistant and come out the other end with a great deal of self esteem, noticeably healthier and happier. Many indicated it was good for them but most wouldn’t want to go back. There are kids that dig in their heels the whole way and get nothing out of it and I think that is what we see referenced here on fornits. I agree that the person needs to embrace the desire to change and it takes time (different amounts for each person) to find the comfort level within themselves or the group they are with, trusting their counselors etc. that is needed to start the healing process that occurs during these wilderness stays.
The ideal place for this to occur is at home surrounded by their loved ones and the majority of kids can be effected at this local level but a very few cannot and need to be reached outside of their environment, again not ideal, but least restrictive.
Do you believe nay of these kids do well and get turned around?
--- Quote ---i also see that a for proft company does not give a rats ass what the kid needs or whether it is meeting a kids needs. What it cares about is whether it can convince the parents that it is meeting the kids needs.
--- End quote ---
I cant agree here at all. I don’t see how a government run place or non profit is going to be any more compassionate or effective. Non profit is over rated and doesn’t really mean what you think. Everyone makes money except the company. The employees still drive Mercedes and get bonuses for a good year, they just don’t have a board of directors pushing them to increase profits.
Oz girl:
You will note i did not mention the state at all so it is irrelevant to this particular debate. What I mentioned was ther *possibility* that with profit out of the equation there is a remote chancce that those involved on a high level actually are altruistically motivated.
I dont doubt that there are some kids who come out better behaved some grow out of things, others asr "scared straight" this does not make it OK.
You also seem to miss the point that for someone genuinely overcoming an addiction or dealing with trauma there is enough pain already. So manufacturing more is not the answer.
the only person i have ever known who had to go away for "treatment" as a minor is a young anorexic. Her family visited her in the hospital every day she was there. All staff were comitted to getting her out ASAP. Friends brought flowers and visted the way they would for anyone else in hospital. It was widely recognised that she needed more not less community support. She did improve and is still stabliising. So this idea that manufaturing pain to pomote growth is absurd
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