Treatment Abuse, Behavior Modification, Thought Reform > Aspen Education Group
Lone Star Expeditions
TheWho:
--- Quote ---You also seem to miss the point that for someone genuinely overcoming an addiction or dealing with trauma there is enough pain already. So manufacturing more is not the answer.
--- End quote ---
No I didn’t miss the point. You asked “How does discomfort either physical or emotional help any kid” and I answered that discomfort typically accompanies any growth or positive transition.
The specifics I am not in a position to know professionally. Some people overcoming an addiction may benefit from a change in diet, hiking in the woods, fresh air, focusing on a project, keeping busy 24/7, I don’t know, I am not an addiction expert. I have seen these kids go in and come out and the majority experience 180 degree turnaround.
Would this turn around be better if it occurred at home? Dam right it would, I am all for it. But if it cant or it fails we need to fine the next best place and if that fails we try again until we get the child the help he needs.
The last thing we want to do is say oh well it is not working at home, lets give up and hope he grows out of it. Most of these kids are asking for help, they may not be saying the words but the intent is there.
Oz girl:
The other issue you never addressed was the morality of giving one person the right to inflict pain on another or deliberately using pain or discomfort to gain compliance.
As to whether i believe kids are "turned around" i have no idea as there is no truly long term study which proves anything either way. i do know that there are statistics which sow that most kids do grow out of adolescent behaviours and do not end up dead mentallly ill or incarcerated. This is in both the US and other similar western countries which do not have a large tough love movement. So i would say that in the unknown event that tough love "works" in getting compliance it is not a moral or sound way of doing it.
What tough love does do is reassure parents and give them absolution for their kids problems. Aspens promotional materials lead the charge with this.
http://www.aspeneducation.com/video/parentsspeak.html
From the earnest therapist looking guy who assures parents it is always worse than you think and also tells them that nothing is their fault to the everydad who cries and says he feared his daughter would be "like this forever" ehrn the neighbours kids were all so perfect. If I were cynical I would use this years tax return to invest in Aspen because such campaigns must have em laughing all the way to the bank. Well at least till the next kid dies
TheWho:
oz girl wrote:
--- Quote ---The other issue you never addressed was the morality of giving one person the right to inflict pain on another or deliberately using pain or discomfort to gain compliance.
--- End quote ---
I don’t believe anyone should have the power to inflict pain on another. Removing comforts i.e. cell phones, privileges, being grounded, removing bad influences, people, places….sure. Restricting food, beatings etc. is criminal and the authorities should be called.
--- Quote ---As to whether i believe kids are "turned around" i have no idea as there is no truly long term study which proves anything either way. i do know that there are statistics which sow that most kids do grow out of adolescent behaviours and do not end up dead mentallly ill or incarcerated. This is in both the US and other similar western countries which do not have a large tough love movement. So i would say that in the unknown event that tough love "works" in getting compliance it is not a moral or sound way of doing it.
--- End quote ---
I agree, in part Oz Girl, many would even have us believe that all kids will grow out of it, but the numbers show that thousands of children die each year because they couldn’t be reached thru local services, parents ignored or were not aware of the signs etc. The kids that have parents who recognized the signs, engaged local intervention or help and found this to be ineffective and needed to look outside the home for their children to get help is a very small percentage.
Does “Tough love” work? Sure, how effective is it? I don’t think we know the whole answer to that.
--- Quote --- From the earnest therapist looking guy who assures parents it is always worse than you think and also tells them that nothing is their fault to the everydad who cries and says he feared his daughter would be "like this forever" ehrn the neighbours kids were all so perfect. If I were cynical I would use this years tax return to invest in Aspen because such campaigns must have em laughing all the way to the bank. Well at least till the next kid dies
--- End quote ---
I think we also need to look at the fact that from a purely business point of view the schools want to have these kids be successful (high success rates) so they are not going to accept kids who are outside the schools area of expertise and refer them to another place, so it isn’t as hard a sell as everyone here would have you believe. The schools wouldn’t last very long if the majority of the kids didn’t do well.
Oz girl:
If nobody is sure of the extent to which tough love works (whatever your definition of that is) and western countries which dont use it have roughly the same rate of delinquency as the US why bother with it at all? it makes no ethical sense.
As to whether programs only market to families who need their services becuase their kids are in Dire trouble and have ethical practices becuase they would make less profit if this were not the case ::roflmao::
-what about the fact that many kids go to several rtcs because none seems to be the right "fit" each one makes quite a buck out of it
-The director of redcliff claimed on international tv that they take both hardcore kids on their way to jail and kids who have been caught watching a dirty movie. We all know a boy can make himself go blind doing this but how will he end up dead or in jail?
-AAA also went on camera depriving kids of proper cooked meals for weeks (rosie brat camp 2) even though the kid in question was in compliance with all of the rules from very early on
-AAA also showed a counsellor urging a girl to hit him on several occasions. When she did he pushed her to the floor and sat on her
-The same girl had her wrists twisted for what the narrator said was 2 hours
- Another girl was restrained by 2 women. One sat on her with her arm twisted up her back and claimed with satisfaction "now it hurts"
- Turn about ranch (which at least appeared to feed the kids well) tied 2 girls together for a day to teach them to like each other.
Again are you ok with such practices? If this is what they are willing to showe on international TV have you ever wondered how much worse it gets when the cameras stop.
Have you also never wondered why there are no survivor groups for normal private schools?
TheWho:
--- Quote ---If nobody is sure of the extent to which tough love works (whatever your definition of that is) and western countries which dont use it have roughly the same rate of delinquency as the US why bother with it at all? it makes no ethical sense.
--- End quote ---
Good point. If the data points to it having no effect then I see no reason to continue using this approach. I really believe the industry needs more research to determine what is working and what is not so as to support and drive a more data driven decision mind set and direction.
--- Quote --- As to whether programs only market to families who need their services becuase their kids are in Dire trouble and have ethical practices becuase they would make less profit if this were not the case
--- End quote ---
No, I guess what I mean is if research determined that kids were not benefiting from their services (TBS) than the business model would either have to change (shift) or they would slowly go out of business. So it doesn’t make any sense to accept kids who they know are going to fail for the sake of a short term profit. Strategically it is a bad business decision. Independent start-ups (without a board to report back to) may try this but they will quickly become fly by night outfits and move around to avoid exposing their failures and accept their short term gains.
--- Quote --- what about the fact that many kids go to several rtcs because none seems to be the right "fit" each one makes quite a buck out of it
--- End quote ---
I would expect they will not survive for very long if they continue to miss their target strengths when accepting children and don’t adjust their screening process.
--- Quote ----The director of redcliff claimed on international tv that they take both hardcore kids on their way to jail and kids who have been caught watching a dirty movie. We all know a boy can make himself go blind doing this but how will he end up dead or in jail?
-AAA also went on camera depriving kids of proper cooked meals for weeks (rosie brat camp 2) even though the kid in question was in compliance with all of the rules from very early on
-AAA also showed a counsellor urging a girl to hit him on several occasions. When she did he pushed her to the floor and sat on her
-The same girl had her wrists twisted for what the narrator said was 2 hours
- Another girl was restrained by 2 women. One sat on her with her arm twisted up her back and claimed with satisfaction "now it hurts"
- Turn about ranch (which at least appeared to feed the kids well) tied 2 girls together for a day to teach them to like each other.
Again are you ok with such practices? If this is what they are willing to showe on international TV have you ever wondered how much worse it gets when the cameras stop.
--- End quote ---
I have never seen this series but I don’t put much faith in its sincerity. Members of Survivor which has been one of the strictest reality shows are starting to come out and admit some people were given toothbrushes, feminine items, soap etc. even though they had not earned the privilege. The women were encouraged to wear as little as possible and the camera people were instructed on what to shoot. So what you see is only what they want you to see to keep it interesting. If you stand out, throw a fit or play to the audience you will get more air time and become known, maybe earn a full scholarship to a TBS, like I believe one of them did I heard here. In Brat Camp if they only showed the kids sitting around the camp fire singing then the show would have been canceled after 2 weeks. I don’t know if this is everyone’s perception, did you feel the show was reflecting reality?
--- Quote ---Have you also never wondered why there are no survivor groups for normal private schools?
--- End quote ---
Everyone has pretty much gone to high school, so you don’t need to search the internet for someone to relate to or talk about your experiences, but TBS is unique so some people may want to search for others who went thru the same thing, bitch about the food, tell war stories.
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