Anyone for Socialized Medicine?

[Ft. Lauderdale]

Anyone for Socialized Medicine?  :grin:

[GregFL]

We already have it.  It is called medicare and medicaid.

[Anonymous]

Not in the true sense of the words, we don't.  

Those are both age and means restricuted programs.  Nothing socialized about that. When healthcare is available to all taxpayers, then it will be socialized. But not until then.

[Anonymous]

I dont have health insurance, so yeah, I'll take it.

[GregFL]

On 2006-05-26 14:33:00, Anonymous wrote:

"Not in the true sense of the words, we don't.  



Those are both age and means restricuted programs.  Nothing socialized about that. When healthcare is available to all taxpayers, then it will be socialized. But not until then.  





"

There is plenty socialized by that.  When you take money from people to create a government program to provide social services, that is the very definition of socialism.


Socialism

Function: noun

Pronunciation: 'sO-sh&-"li-z&m1 : any of various economic and political theories advocating collective or governmental ownership and administration of the means of production and distribution of goods and services.

When the government administering and owning the medical system, that is socialistic.

More specifically:

social insurance

NOUN:

An insurance program carried out or mandated by a government to provide economic assistance to the unemployed, the elderly, or the disabled."




To understand socialism, one can help define it by what is the opposite of socialism, and that is capitalism.  In a capitalistic political system, the individual controls the direction of goods and services.  In a socialistic system, the government makes these calls.  In socialistic societys, the government makes choices about things such as medical care with the goal of doing what is best for society in general.

America, since FDR, has become a mixed system,and is anything but a pure capitalistic society anymore.One can  Argue whether this is good or bad, but it is almost self evident.



Medicare/medicaid meets all criteria for socialized medical care, it is just restricted in its scope.  If one advocates a socialized medical program for all, then the easiest way to do this is expand the existing medicare system  to cover everyone ELSE that already isn't receiving it. We would also eliminate medicaid.

So, everyone but the eldery would be placed on the same system that the eldery are currently under, and all medical aide to the poor would be eliminated entirely (because they would be covered under medicare).  We could also simplify the medical insurance system, eliminating all these "networks", exclusions, medical policies and so forth.


Personally I don't think it would be a bad idea.  Doctors just make too much money by price fixing and gouging, and operate in a mixed system anyway, collecting from both individuals and governments.  Medical care also operates opposite of a normal capitalistic system in the sense that increased competetion also raises, not lowers prices.  Doctors don't bother to offer service in the traditional sense anyway.  In america, unless you are dying or under dire circumstance, they make you wait, and wait, and wait.  Even with an appointment you wait for hours.  Imagine if any other  business treated you like that.

So our medical system is broke.  This is obvious to anyone sick, or stuck paying their own way, or paying the outrageous medical insurance premiums, only to find when they are sick they wait, they are overcharged, and they still pay outrageous sums.  Often, one can pay more in deductibles for care in america than people pay for care elsewhere.

[GregFL]

expanding the medicare system to cover all also eliminates the redistributive nature of the program anyway, which again, takes money from workers and gives it to the elderly, whether they need it or not.  This is patently unfair to workers who not only pay the medicare premiums for the elderly, but also pay the shortages at hospitals by "overbilling practices" (which would make you or I end up in prison).


Please don't confuse my position on this with my position on social security.

[SHH]

To put alot of the blame on doctors for the way the system works is unfair and I will tell you why I say this. My cousin, who is my age, (41), is an ob/gyn in Florida. He co-owns his practice along with 2 other doctors in the town where he lives, (small town of about 20,000). Their ob/gyn practice is the only one for about 70 miles. They work round the clock almost, delivering babies and seeing patients in the office and in the hospital. He doesnt ever get home to his family until after 9pm or sometimes later if he is the one on call that week. He also doesnt make a ton of money. His malpractice insurance premium is over 100,000 dollars a year. He has been going to hearings and petitioning the insurance commissioner in Florida to change how things are being done there because so many doctors in rural areas are having to either move to bigger cities or go out of business totally due to the high cost of insurance. They are so overworked because all the other ob/gyn's have moved away or quit in their area. To say that all doctors make a ton of money on their patients is a generalization and maybe true in los angeles or new york, but in small town america....doctors are moving away and leaving their patients to drive 40,50, even 60 miles for basic care. Its far from glamorous to be a doctor in small town america, and far from making the doctors wealthy.

P.S. I am not sure what cities you all live in, but in my particular city, they have some of the best medical care in the state, and I have never had to wait more than 30 min for my appt. Maybe Im just lucky? I do think it depends on where youre living as to what kinds of services and their quality.

[GregFL]

We just had an OBGyn near my town settle with Medicaid for 1/2 million dollars. He was double dipping, so to speak.

YOu have to blame the doctors.  Every doctor in my town lives like royality behind gated communities.  Most of them live in a community that my best friend lives in.  Their houses are absolutely palatial, and their teenage kids driver Beemers and Corvettes.

Maybe it is different in small time USA, but I am in a community of 150,000, which is small, and these Doctors are banking.

In Tampa, I saw an Orthopeadic 10 years ago.  I went back about a 2 years ago and they had built an entire self contained hospital, these 6 doctors that have a practice.  At the time I was going to get a procedure where they inject a pain killer into your neck,and BCBS approved 1000.  My brother in law had it done for 1100.  They wanted me to sign a paper that I would pay everything BCBS didn't approve.  I had to push them to give me a price, and when they finally did it was over 3000 grand.  I walked out.  A less astute "buyer" would have gotten shafted big time.

This type of practice is so common it is sickening.

[SHH]

Well maybe its like that in your town, but I can assure you my cousin lives like the rest of us. He has a nice house, but its under 350,000. He drives an SUV and a minivan, has 2 kids, and when they had the 2nd child and ran out of room they added on instead of buying a bigger house. He lives on a 1/2 acre lot, no gated community, and until they added on it was just a 3 bedroom 2 bath house with a family room on the back. He does have a pool, but so do 1/2 the people in Florida. My point was, not ALL doctors double dip, cheat their patients, make them wait hours, and live like kings. Maybe in your exclusive community, but definately not in North Central Florida.

[GregFL]

I live in Central Florida, and I don't live in the community I was referencing.

[Anonymous]

double dipping so to speak is standard practice in the medical field. almost all hospitals do it as do most doctors offices.  now i believe some dr's offices try to do things correctly, but at the larger level of hospitals forget about it. acquiring money is the primary goal.
bill for almost everything twice.
insurance companies in most cases have a dept dedicated to finding double billing and of course not paying for it, but they only are looking for the larger of expenses. being double billed for something that costs $100 isnt even no their radar. but double billing surgeries. or you will see line items that will say 'surgical supplies -$1000"
but then  $guauze $50  - scalple $250  etc

so they have one mass catagory for these supplies but then throw them on individually also (no they arent a break down, they are additonal)

or wait 3 months and rebill for it.

usually they also bill for just a very large number knowing the company wont pay all of it but different companies pay at different rates, so ask for a lot and see what you get seems to be the guiding principle.

i live in southern floirda and i think medical care is attrocious. waiting, waiting and waiting...go see one dr, no i can't help you, I want you to see this kind, that will take 3 weeks to get into....nope i dont know what it is, go see this kind, 3 more weeks....waiting for an hour in the doctors office before being seen. oh we skipped you, well you have to reschedule...

so i know a person who workde for a dr at a fairly larger prestigious facility in north central florida. and the dr had a room full of patients...and he decides to go see titanic....do they tell the patients..no he orders the receptionist to tell no one anything...so its not like he even cancelled his schedule....

i'd rather go to health care in china. you want to see if somethigns wrong with you? go to a hospital. you'll be seen today. have your test results most likely today, or in some cases tomorrow.  you dont even need to schedule an appointment.

there is a definite problem for doctors though with isnurance premiums. a lot of doctors in a number of states cannot practice because of the cost. its not the heart drs and the expensive practices really. they charge so much they can aford it. but even for just a general family dr insurance premiums can run 70k. well for just checking if someone has a caugh, you cannot charge enough to recoup that kind of money and then actually make anythinhg (still paying your staff, and rent etc). its insane that premiums for that kind of dr run to those extremes. but since everyone litigates over everything and a jury will feel sorry for anyone who claims "he wronged me, he has money, give me!!"  premiums sky rocket.
oh and of course its not hard to find an attorney who would love to represent you and collect the most amount of money they possibly can.

people arent just expecting to recoup the money they lost, say broken legg, 2500 in med bills, i need 2500, they want 20k....its a ticket to the lotto in most people's eyes and they sue for as much as they can and jury's give it to them.

[GregFL]

Here is a doctor story.  Early in my career, when I could scarcely afford to leave my office, I hurt my neck.  I ignored it and it got worse.  So I made an appointment to see a Doctor in New Port Richey, Florida who had operated on my friend's back.

He set the appointment in his modern, all glass HUGE office for 1:OO PM.  I told the nurse that if my appointment was for 1:oo, I needed to see the doctor at 1 because every hour out of my office was crucial (and it really was).  She said she "understood".

I got there at ten minutes till one.  There were many other people milling about the office.  at 1:30, I asked to see the doctor, and they said "he is still in surgery".  This went on until a quarter till 5.  by then I didn't two shits about my neck anymore, I was furious at the callous lack of concern.

When the doctor came in he said "how you doing" and I said 'horrible.  My time is very valuable.  You set an appointment for 1:00, and it is now 5.  Just why would you ask me to come in at 1:00 and not show up until 5:00.  If I did that, my customers would go somewhere else".

He said, "we set all our appointments for 1:00.

Let that sink in for a minute.  He set all his appointments for 1:00, with no intention of seeing anyone at that time.  Virtually everyone waiting had a 1:00 appointment.

I told him "never again.  If we are going to have a relationship, you will set an appointment when you can see me."  He then x-rayed and cat scanned my neck, and the follow up visit (4:45 appointment time) He told me I needed an operation on my neck, that in fact it was imperative.  This operation was approx 50% over the usual and customary Rule, meaning I would be out of pocket thousands of dollars over my insurance approved amount, not including deductibels and co-pay.

That was over 15 years ago.  My neck hurts from time to time, but other than that I have never had follow up treatment.  Needless to say, I never got the operation and have never been back to see this "doctor".  I have also heard many stories about him that are less than flatering, and he does not have admitting priviledges anymore at the local hospitals.

Last I heard he was being flown back and forth to his office in a helicopter.

Is this typical?  I don't think so...but it is illustrative of the outrageousness we put up with in the system.

BTW, I don't live in new port richey, but the doctors that do mostly live on Gulf Harbors beach, on a private Road, in multi million dollar waterfront mansions.   There 100 thousand dollar malpractice insurance bills are nothing but a nuisance whatwith the 7 figure incomes these guys are pulling in.





[ This Message was edited by: GregFL on 2006-05-27 10:47 ]

[Anonymous]

VA insurance is cheap and they take care of everything and pay the bills. Actually they need patients for their paycheck. I've got doctors and social workers and case managers in and out of my house making sure everything is going smoothly. That's socialized healthcare. Don't be pissed either because I earned that right and am anhonorably discharged veteran. I am not on social security. I'm on 100% sevice-connected disability pension. Have bee for years.

[Johnny G]

Lauderdale is two for two on hot topics!

Socialized medicine is what the rest of the world (with a few exceptions) has.  

Malpractice is unnecessary as you are in the system and if you got messed up, you would be taken care of anyway.  The medical system takes care of its own quality control because doctors are not profit centers, you lose the issue with the poor overworked soul in the remote area because he is paid the same as the city guy and has the same staff in proportion to the local population.



If you are sick, injured, etc. you show up and get treated.  If you have a "tough case" you get sent to the top names.  Here the top guys in particular field see those who can afford it or have the right insurance.  


I spoke with several of the top specialists in a given field in Canada - they reported that every self important big wheel wanted them to do their exam/procedure, but the way it is set up, patients get screened for the top guys so they aren't wasting thier time on routine stuff.

In this country we would rather choose our own doctors than have single payer healthcare - wait a second, my insurance does not cover this dentist, I thought I got to choose my own!

I have been in the medical device business for quite a few years in several specialties, and the common denominator is that there are so many different payers that cost control is impossible;  

The same is not true of Europe, the medical plan negociates for the whole country and gets a good price, for everyone.  You bet they dont pay as much for Lipitor as we do, neither does anyone else.  When one looks at the market price structure it is immediately obvious that the US subsidizez the worlds drug research, and we don't even get it first!  These companies are not US companies but they got a huge subsidy when Part D was enacted prohibiting Medicare from aggregate pricing.

The whole US healthcare sysem is designed to protect the AMA, Pharma and device makers, and the insurance industry.

Time to get off the soapbox

G

[Anonymous]

Little G you are the one on the soapbox, and I have a deep belief you can't get something for nothing as the current government goes. Sso happy memorial day............asshole.