Author Topic: struggling turkeys discussing fornits  (Read 7438 times)

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Offline try another castle

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struggling turkeys discussing fornits
« Reply #45 on: January 19, 2006, 02:57:00 AM »
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Sure, but there are matters of degrees. We were in our chairs, unless instructed to stand and line up at a door, for a solid 12 hours most days, and twice a week up to 18 hours. And you couldn't let your back touch the chair, nor your arms or legs cross, nor your fingers tap, nor the flats of your feet leave the floor. If you did, someone would knuckle your spine or otherwise harass you. If you reacted in anyway other than silent and swift compliance, you might just get slammed to the floor by the kids nearest you then become the occasional focus of all the group's wrath for up to a few hours till Staff decided you could get up and return to your seat.


Yeah, that sounds far more regimented than anything that would happen at CEDU. CEDU was very new agey cultish touchy feely stuff. The only thing that came close to what you were talking about was the sitting position we had to assume in the summit, but it wasn't painful or anything like that, it was just stupid. However, you bring up a good point in that there are many different ways to enforce conformity. Which kind of reinforces what I was speaking about before, we were short on overly harsh physical discipline compared to other schools (although we DID have it) but we had heaps of emotional mind-fuckery, which is just as bad.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #46 on: January 19, 2006, 03:26:00 AM »
I tend to think the mental stuff is the worst. Maybe it's just a matter of perspective. I was the youngest of 6 kids of an Irish mailman. I was used to rough physical treatment. Not beatings or anything, but a good many red bellies and being trapped in small places or tickled till I peed. My brother found this sort of thing very entertaining till I started to grasp the mighty awsome power of his irrational fear of dogs (even little lap dogs)  :rofl:

My dad came up litterally in a dirt floor shack, or actually a series of them. So while we were fed and properly housed and clothed, our baseline for comfort was just a lot lower than for some ppl. It wasn't punative or anything. It was just our lifestyle. So I was used to austerity, too.

We played rough, but we were playing! There was absolutely nothing playful about the social interaction in the Program. It was cut throat and high stakes. You didn't even dare tell yourself what you really thought. And, after awhile, you'd forget.

I think that's what the parents just can't understand. It's an intensely personal and brutal sort of violation of your very autonomy. I don't think mind rape is too strong a word.

And the worst part, at least to me, is that you know damned well the parents and a lot of other people in each kid's life know, on some level, just what's going on. And they tacitly or vocally approve of it.

Why? Well, because! The term "out of control teenager" is almost precisely synonymous w/ "uppity nigger" in our brave new lexicon.

The world is so exquisite, with so much love and moral depth, that there is no reason to deceive ourselves with pretty stories for which there's no good evidence. Far better, it seems to me, to look death in the eye and to be grateful every day for the brief but magnificent opportunity that life provides.
--Carl Sagan

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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #47 on: January 19, 2006, 03:30:00 AM »
not to mention that at RMA the fear of being sent to Provo or Elan was always held over our heads...we were well aware of the extreme nature of what you guys had to go through.  Our "full times" we pretty horrendous though.  We didn't have a "hobbit" for solitary confinement but rather had to create our own mental cage by sitting in the corner of the dining room 24/7 for up to 63 days at the longest that I know of.  Bans from most everybody including some staff...older students could talk to you. When you weren't at the table alone or sleeping it was either hard labor that usually consisted of moving boulders to build enourmous rock retaining walls...or you were getting blown to kingdom come in a rap.  Even the people that were in the rap and didn't know the "full timer" from Adam were encouraged to yell and scream at them if only about how unsafe that the "full timer" has made the school.

but I gotta say...those humble pants definitely win the prize for being the most...well...it just makes me think of 'the silence of the lambs' when the girl is in the pit.
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #48 on: January 19, 2006, 04:09:00 AM »
Well, yeah, and precisely what teenagers aren't out of control, anyway?

Ok, ok, there are some. Of course, those ones will probably be labeled "depressed".



You cite Irish roots. Maybe it's just part of my Jewish upbringing to constantly think "It could have been worse." I mean, it definitely could have been worse, but it can always  be worse.


And regarding full-times... I was on one myself for 14 days, and I have to say, probably the weirdest rule they had for full-time-ees was that you couldn't smile. Because you would be "running from" your issues. Not smiling for 14 days was tough,  (especially on movie nights, when they might be playing a comedy in the living room) but I can't imagine what it would be like for 63 days.

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[ This Message was edited by: sorry... try another castle on 2006-01-19 01:14 ]
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #49 on: January 19, 2006, 06:04:00 AM »
I have to say something about the humble pants. If you ask Sammie, she'll tell you that the journalists keep painting that the wrong shade of grey. It was a humiliating costume, like a sign or something just like Synanon or Daytop. No staffer ever ordered anybody (that I know of) to keep a misbehaver from changing soiled clothes. No, it's more like misbehavers were on bans (effectively) from everyone. And to break the rules by talking out (I have to use the bathroom) or by standing up w/o being told to would get them slammed on the floor. This could go on for days or weeks at a stretch and if you had shitty foster parents and oldcomers (as misbehavers almost always did) well then you were out of luck.

That intention and volition seems meaningless, but it's not. You can tolerate almost any discomfort better if it's inadvertant, not intentional.

But, on the other hand, what you call bans we called first phase. Those little things add up, too. No newcomers talking to newcomers, no talking out in group (no free communication, even normal civility and utility stuff like "please pass the salt") That was full time and could go on for months or, in some of Virgil's private hell holes, years. Another interesting little rule, no newcomers looking in the mirror. The austensible reason was to keep us from avoiding ourselves by getting into our images. But really, your own face was the only familiar one in your suddenly miniaturized world, and you weren't allowed to say good morning to it. Things like that had a much more potent impact than you might think.

Theology: The effort to explain the unknowable in terms of the not worth knowing.
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #50 on: January 19, 2006, 12:30:00 PM »
I have to say, Ginger, what you and other survivors went through at STRAIGHT and other WWSAP programs make Cedu/RMA look like resorts. I am not claiming that no abuse occurred, but nearly to the same degree of what is described by you (and others)that happened at STRAIGHT. Really. No fair comparison.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #51 on: January 19, 2006, 05:10:00 PM »
Well, hmmm. See, I'm not about trying to out-do anyone else's horror stories. Honest to God, I don't want sympathy. I actually do count myself among the luckiest people ever to walk this Earth. "Don't cry for me, Argentina!" or Provo, Utah. It's not about that.

What I'm trying to do, I guess, is lay down my part of the story for the purpose of meaningful comparison. I agree that CEDU/Brown has been, most of the time, quite tame in some regards compared to some places and quite horrible by comparison to others.

It could always be worse, it could always be better. Let's get past that.

I want to talk about the similarities. And that's the ONLY reason why I lay out the differences. If we can put it all on the table, take off the differences, then we're left with what we're left with.

And I think that's quite interesting a topic of exploration and debate right there.

Jails and prisons are the complement of schools; so many less as you have of the latter, so many more you must have of the former

--Horace Mann

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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #52 on: January 19, 2006, 11:03:00 PM »
Good point. Especially seeing how both of these programs are offspring of synanon. The evolution of each program in and of itself and what aspects of synanon they chose to take with them and build upon is interesting.

I don't hear nearly enough about how the seed led to straight. Wasn't there a direct progression from one to the other? I don't know a whole lot about the seed.

I've also heard people say that there is a more direct connection between the seed and straight to synanon then there is a connection from CEDU to synanon. Why is that?
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Offline Anonymous

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« Reply #53 on: January 20, 2006, 04:07:00 AM »
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I've also heard people say that there is a more direct connection between the seed and straight to synanon then there is a connection from CEDU to synanon. Why is that?

Wasn't CEDU highly influenced by est and LifeSpring too?
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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #54 on: January 20, 2006, 04:49:00 AM »
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On 2006-01-20 01:07:00, Anonymous wrote:

"
Quote
I've also heard people say that there is a more direct connection between the seed and straight to synanon then there is a connection from CEDU to synanon. Why is that?

Wasn't CEDU highly influenced by est and LifeSpring too?"


CEDU preceded both of those by many years. The one connection I know of is that Mel bought the Lifespring copyright and made it the summit workshop. I don't know about any connections with Weber's encounter groups (est). Both CEDU and est were both products of that whole human potential movement of the 60s, though.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #55 on: January 20, 2006, 12:47:00 PM »
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On 2006-01-19 20:03:00, sorry... try another castle wrote:


I don't hear nearly enough about how the seed led to straight. Wasn't there a direct progression from one to the other? I don't know a whole lot about the seed.


Oh, it's out there. I know Wes has a good bit about it on his site. Here's the basic story. The Seed used federal expansion funding to expand from Ft. Lauderdale to Miami, St. Pete, Cleveland and, I think, a couple of other locations that just didn't last. In `74, they lost the federal funding due to a damning senate report comparing their methods to Korean brainwashing. So they pulled in their horns and cut back to just the Ft. Laud location. Two years later, half a dozen Seed parents and some Seed graduates set up shop in St. Pete under the name Straight, Inc.

Now, my family was involved w/ the Seed in Ft. Lauderdale from `70 or so till sometime in the very late `70's. So, while I didn't sit in group w/ them, I was intimately familiar w/ the program and program culture. Straight was just about exactly like the seed, only w/ polo shirts instead of tshirts--just a tad more republican and southern religion thrown in, whereas Art was a Social Democrat and vocal atheist.

We don't really know how the Synanon lingo and practices came to the Seed. I asked John Underwood about that just a few months ago (you can find his posts on The Seed Discussion Forum) and he said they got all that second hand; that it was just the generic stock culture and practices of drug rehabs everywhere in that day.

Not sure I believe him, but I don't have any proof to the contrary or better info than that.

Vain are the thousand creeds that move men's hearts, unutterably vain, worthless as wither'd weeds.
--Emily Bronte

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Offline try another castle

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« Reply #56 on: January 20, 2006, 08:32:00 PM »
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We don't really know how the Synanon lingo and practices came to the Seed. I asked John Underwood about that just a few months ago (you can find his posts on The Seed Discussion Forum) and he said they got all that second hand; that it was just the generic stock culture and practices of drug rehabs everywhere in that day.


If that is the case, then I wonder why the seed is considered more closely allied with synanon than CEDU? Mel worked directly with synanon, after all.

Not like it's a contest or anything, though. Just curious.

And yes, that kind of stuff is very much like the korean brainwashing stuff. I don't know if you've ever seen any tapes or documentaries about the korean system of abuse for american POWs, but I believe one of their ideologies was that you could win more converts with a smile than a frown. Prisoners were rewarded for their conformity and punished for their disobedience. Wheras normal POW camps, I believe, offered no, or very little, reward for conformity. You just may have gotten out of getting tortured that day, or maybe not. It definitely reminds me a lot of the torture scenes in 1984, where O'Brian is shooting electricity through Winston's body one moment, and comforting him in his arms the next.
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Offline Antigen

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« Reply #57 on: January 21, 2006, 03:54:00 PM »
I think there are a couple of reasons. First, the victors always get to write the history. Art Barker got the bum's rush as far back as `74. the Seed was profiled by name in that Senate investigation and report. That's because the Seed was on the feder dole through NIDA funding. I don't know that CEDU was getting any of that. I rather expect they were, but have never been able to confirm or disprove it.

The other thing is that, bad as CEDU was, I don't think it generated anywhere near the media attention that Straight did.

I think Wes Fager's muck raking probably has a bit to do w/ the strong public perception of Straight=Synanon. I know the TC industry associations themselves mention Synanon occasionally in their own versions of their history. But I think Wes is the one who really has trumpeted that particular fact.

Then there's the effect of geography. Straight and the Seed located right on the East Coast, right in town. I think that was part of their downfall. In the Tampa/St. Pete area you just can't swing a dead cat w/o hitting a program vet or someone else w/ fairly direct ties to either The Seed, Straight, LIFE, DFAF, etc. When my friends did that conference a couple of years back, they put up a billboard on a major highway there in town and it drew a lot of participants and even more folks who skipped the conference and just went to the websites.

I can't imagine where you'd put such a billboard to hit CEDU vets.

I don't go lookin' for trouble. I just keep a little in a box should someone come by who is.
--Bill Warbis

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"Don\'t let the past remind us of what we are not now."
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